It's either an homage to the Ivy League/Eastern establishment look of yesteryear (Brooks Brothers Oxford Cloth Button Down with a sack suit being the preferred combo) or else general middle-manager cluelessness and indifference to a smart appearance, whether in the Midwest, in New York, or elsewhere. Wearing a buttondown with a suit in Europe is a way of announcing that you are an American, assuming you are not the late Gianni Agnelli or one of his imitators.

Click through to the Shari Motro profile. She's the best-looking tax prof I've ever seen.

guess she didn't like DP&W?

I'm not sure I get it--is the question really asking whether you need to wear a tie with a suit?

Or vice versa.

I'm so confused . . . what other kind of shirt are you supposed to wear with a suit if not a button down shirt?

Prof. Motro is hot. A Motrosexual, if you will.

Is this referring to a button-down collar? Because dress shirts have buttons. I guess I could get one with a zipper, but I'm not sure how acceptable that would be.

There seems to be some confusion. We are talking about a buttondown shirt - that is, a shirt with a buttondown COLLAR. See here:

http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=204&Product_Id=500031&Parent_Id=203

(Not that color, obviously.)

Some people, less versed in sartorial matters, use the term "buttondown" to refer to any button-FRONT shirt, regardless of whether the collar has buttons. This is a rookie mistake only slightly more forgivable than wearing a brown 4-button suit to a Cravath interview.

Even a lowly Tier 2 like me realizes shirts with button-down collars should NEVER be worn.

thanks for clearing this up. This question reinforces how stupid and baseless most fashion "Dos and Don'ts" are.

WTF? Should he wear a zippered dress shirt?

I have always believed that a shirt with a buttondown collar should never be worn with a tie...let alone a suit, but then I am British, so what do I know.

I think sartorialist perfectly describes the two "looks" which the button down may evoke. When it is clear that the individual is going for the J. Press look, the button down is a perfectly acceptable part of the ensemble. But if he wears it with a tie which looks like it belongs on a salesman in a Verizon store, he only exacerbates his fashion faux pas.

So I suppose my verdict on the button down would be acceptable in limited circumstances, but proceed with extreme caution.

I am a female and I wear button down collars. From Brooks Brothers, no less. Brooks Brothers has the BEST dress shirts ever--they're non-iron and they can be thrown in the wash. Brooks Brothers dress shirts are the best investment an attorney can make because they save you from the hassle of having to dry clean your shirts on a weekly basis. I do agree, though, that buttoning down the collar, with a tie is really geeky. Nonetheless, my European husband does it all the time.

When I work as a salesman at the Verizon store, I'm going to dress like I'm in a top 10 biglaw firm.

Button down collars = no ties. Period. Just because it's so commonly done doesn't make it right.

And I can't speak for their women's clothing, but for men, Brooks Brothers dress shirts are great... if you are shaped like a box. They cut their shirts to fit their target market: overweight, middle-aged men. So the rest of us swim in waves of unnecessary fabric instead of wearing a shirt that fits. Unfortunately, too many people don't realize that their clothes don't fit (the same people that put the button down collar with the tie, or don't match their shoes to their belts). Next week's lesson: Your socks are supposed to match your pants.

12:47, Brooks Brothers sells slim-fit shirts, as well as made to measure.

Sartorialist: Does the rule admit of a seersucker exception?

Dear 12:47,

Brooks Bros. offers different cuts for their dress shirts. If you're not an overweight, middle-aged man, I would recommend the "slim fit" cut. If you still look bad in that, then perhaps it's not the fault of the clothier.

HTH.

Wow. People find some really important things to worry about.

A button-down shirt is fine w/ a sport coat/blazer (no tie) especially if you are hanging out at the local yacht club in Cape Cod, Nantucket, etc. But very unstylish w/ a suit and tie.

12:58, seersucker would fall into the "homage to the Ivy League/Eastern establishment of yesteryear" category which I earlier identified. A buttondown shirt would be perfectly acceptable in that ensemble. Note that seersucker, because it is cotton and because it is designed to rumple a bit, is inherently a rather casual suit. Hence, a more casual shirt is called for. Wearing, say, a starched spread collar shirt with a seersucker is as sartorially dissonant as wearing a buttondown with your Anderson & Sheppard grey flannel.

Interestingly, seersucker is more commonly seen in the American South these days. Perfect for the humid weather!

I just laughed out loud. Of course you should never wear a button down collar with a suit. Not unless you are teaching college calculus.

either is fine. a button down collar w/ suit and tie is a classic look. by definition, it does not go out of fashion, though its popularity may ebb and flow.

now what about pleats? or three button suits? both seem to have fallen out of popularity in the past few years.

In years past, the button down was actually considered more formal and appropriate to wear with a suit. If you have a square end knit tie in your closet or a very very narrow tie from the 80's you know what folly it is to follow the winds of fashion.

the knit tie will never go out of style

the knit tie will never go out of style

Where can I get some cheap shirts that fit me around the neck and don't wear like a tent? I've got like a 17.5 neck and am built like a linebacker...I get the XL shirts from target and they fit my neck (barely) but I'm tucking in 3 feet of shirt!!

What about orange ties?

If one has spent enough time around the Brooks button down shirt, one realizes that there is a world of difference in the way the collar rolls on a Brooks shirt than on most other button downs. This fact is critical when considering whether or not to wear such a shirt with a tie (and suit). I'm fully in favor of the yesteryear look referenced by sartorialist (and I sport it all the time), but the collar must not bunch around the tie or look limp in any way as it extends from the neck to the buttons.

The spread collar absolutists on this thread betray real ignorance regarding American fashion history. The button down collar was once de rigueur among young professionals of a certain background. It may be on the wane now, but it has never been considered verboten in the United States. Europe is a different story, of course, but we need not bow to their sensibilities on our own turf.

Orange ties are suitable for every occasion. With the possible exception of funerals.

You know what really sucks about fashion? Someone with a great body will look great in anything. Brad Pitt could go to K-Mart, pick out items blind-folded and they will look great on him.

Hickey Freeman has a great selection of orange clothing.

1:54: If that were really true, Joan Rivers would be out of a job faster than you could say "Gaultier."

Are orange ties intended to communicate something about your personality?

while the sartorialists are searching madison avenue for the perfect non-button-down collar, matching socks, and hi-falootin' name-brand ties, i am putting more work into my brief.

i guarantee you that the judge will care more about the quality of our briefs than who's wearing the shirt with the properly fashionable collar. ATL or Page Six might differ, but if that's your target audience, you're in the wrong business.

two words, baby: Lands End.

I would rather have Brad Pitt's face and body over the best sartorial taste in the world.

May we wear a shirt with a button down collars with a suit and tie? Do we really even have to ask?

The answer is: NEVER.

Thank you, savages.

What if I wear my button down shirt with a bow tie?

She's hot AND a genius. I'm in love.

Wearing a button down shirt with a suit is like wearing a blue shirt with olive green pants (another cherished look of the business casual IT Tech). Just because it's common doesn't mean it's right.

what are good biglaw suits?

Sartorialists,

What do you think of the "contrast" style? This is when you put things together which so completely don't belong together that it actually looks good.

For example:

Light olive green pants.
Blue and white pin-striped button down shirt.
Brown belt and shoes.
Cream colored undershirt which you can see because the top buttons of the collar shirt are left unbuttoned.
Cream socks (same color as the undershirt.)

the button down collar is more of a classic look - some can get away with it (old geezers and frumpy country lawyers). You would wear it with a blazer or with your seersucker suit for instance - but generally not with the traditional gray business suit.

In all of my 30+ years in this life, I had never heard that one should not wear a button-down collar with a suit?

Are there any books or websites which can enlighten me about the rules of fashion? Obviously, I need it.

According to the Brooks Brothers' manual for men's dress: button-down collars are fine with suits, as long as it's for a day-time event. Button-down collars are frowned upon for events starting after sundown.

B Squared Manual,

What if you come to work in the daytime but plan to pull an all-nighter? Should you unbutton your collar when the clock chimes 7? Because midnight doc review is quite the evening event.

Okay guys . . .

Buttondown collars should not be worn with traditional suits.

Button down collars CAN be worn in a few different outfits.

1. Khakis and a navy blue blazer with print/repp tie. In terms of shoes, oxfords or penny loafers, NO CAP TOES.

2. Blue slacks and a print/repp tie without a jacket, or maybe with a non-traditional brown cashmere blazer. The whole shirt and tie without a jacket is a peculiar look, and should be the subject of a whole different post. Again, oxfords or loafers, possibly some understated brown square toes (nothing to italiano fagliano).

3. Seersucker/linen suit. Once again though, stay away from solid color or complicated pattern ties. White/brown shoes only. Possibly some mocha suede oxfords.

4. With bermuds shorts and sandals. No tie.

5. With bermuda/madras shorts, a beat-up polo/lacoste baseball cap (faryed brim) and a whimsical bow tie.

6. While this outfit is questionable at best, I include it because of its internal consistency. That's right, I mean the shirt and tie with jeans look. This should ONLY be attempted by college professors in the midwest. As one explained it to me "The tie is so I look serious at the department meeting, the jeans are self-explanatory." Do not wear this into any office, I don't care if you work at Google.

7. A buttondown collar can be worn with just slacks, no tie or jacket, but only if you work on Sand Hill Road.

BB Manual is authoritative on this matter. Lat - you lose.

While the all night doc review can be quite the event, I don't think that's what the Brooks brothers had in mind. Interesting side-note, the button-down collar was first introduced by Brooks Brothers in response to rugby players complaining about the collars flying up in their face. The idea caught on and was extended to every day dress.

haha - this is hilarious!!! Asking a bunch of tier 1's how to dress!!! "Should i wear a zip up shirt?" Seriously?? How about I put it in legalise, wearing a button-down with a suit is like citing a Justice Thomas dissent in a brief. Its like applying the plain meaning to the 11th amendment - no one does it.

Button-downs are sporty. They go with sport coats, and they can be worn with single-breasted coats but not on more formal occasions.

Please take a moment to consider the fashion of great TV trial lawyers, in particular, Ben Matlock and his seersucker suit.

And thank you USD Law Student for letting us know that Ben could wear a button down if he wanted.

Dare I ask this board about female dress?

"Seeker of sartorial wisdom" -

I would recommend the following websites:

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/index.php

http://www.styleforum.net

http://thelondonlounge.net/

For books I would recommend the following authors:

Alan Flusser
G. Bruce Boyer
Bernhard Roetzel
Nicholas Antongiavanni

"Seeker of sartorial wisdom": I would recommend the following websites for those interested in traditional menswear:

Ask Andy About Clothes
Styleforum
The London Lounge

For books, I would recommend the following authors:

Alan Flusser
G. Bruce Boyer
Bernhard Roetzel
Nicholas Antongiavanni

Sartorialist:

Thanks. I appreciate it!

Can someone please opine on my contrast style? 4:22 post. I think it's the height of fashion.

"I think it's the height of fashion."

For circus clowns, maybe.

If one has spent enough time around the Brooks button down shirt, one realizes that there is a world of difference in the way the collar rolls on a Brooks shirt than on most other button downs. This fact is critical when considering whether or not to wear such a shirt with a tie (and suit). I'm fully in favor of the yesteryear look referenced by sartorialist (and I sport it all the time), but the collar must not bunch around the tie or look limp in any way as it extends from the neck to the buttons.

The spread collar absolutists on this thread betray real ignorance regarding American fashion history. The button down collar was once de rigueur among young professionals of a certain background. It may be on the wane now, but it has never been considered verboten in the United States. Europe is a different story, of course, but we need not bow to their sensibilities on our own turf.

This statement is correct. All of you nouveau riche fashionistas should stop dispensing the flawed fashion advice.

SNIPPED

"May we wear a shirt with a button down collars with a suit and tie? Do we really even have to ask?

The answer is: NEVER.

Thank you, savages."

Thank you. Thank you very much. And to whoever quoted the Brooks Brothers manual of style--really, dude. If you are under 50 and consulting Brooks Brothers for advice about what is fashionable, just go jump off the pier because your obviously never getting laid again--ever...

I think the button downs were for polo players so their collars didn't flap about.... So I say no to the tie with the button down. In fact I say no to wearing button downs on any day you aren't at home.

To Anonymous--11:54,
I'm 23, and I consider Brooks Brothers the height of fashion. Perhaps you'd be well-served to adhere to the classics.

I was told at SCOTUS never to wear button down shirts (after I showed up with one on). I've never purchased/worn one since.

I agree with Sartorialist that the button down with a suit is "an homage to the Ivy League/Eastern establishment look of yesteryear ... with a sack suit being the preferred combo)."

Mention also should be made of J. Press, which began on the grounds of Yale in 1902 and bills itself as committed to the Ivy League look. The store is amusingly described in the Preppy Handbook as for those who think Brooks is no longer conservative.

J. Press features button down shirts to accompany the traditional 3-button sack suit (the only style of suit sold in the store).

Whatever one's fashion preference (I wear button downs), J. Press provides further support for the fact that it is certainly appropriate to sport the button down with a suit.

"The store is amusingly described in the Preppy Handbook as for those who think Brooks is no longer conservative."

That line is classic, Anonymous. Made my day.