on the heels of the recent increase to 160K salaries, there is something enjoyable about thinking of partners meeting to discuss the possibility of ponying up even more money out of their coffers to stay competitive for junior level associates.

The partners can afford it. 2006 was a very good year, and unless there is a geopolitical catastrophe, 2007 should be even better.

Any word on Cravath?

$35K looking pretty paltry? What about $15K? Absurd.

Laurie--are there any legs to the $200K first-year salary hike rumor briefly discussed in the Magic Circle firm salary hike thread?

I assume no, but I'm curious if you've heard anything.

No, I haven't heard anything on the $200k rumor.

Thanks for the quick reply Laurie.

Some firms are still at $15K per clerkship year, with a cap at $30K!!!!!

So how is the phone call going to go down if they don't bump?

Incoming clerk: "So ... I get ...$15K, even though my friends get $50K? Gee thanks."

Wasn't the "$200k rumuor" made up by this blog? Talk about the tail wagging the dog!

7:36

maybe we can make this work to our advantage

Assume (just a hypothetical of course) I got an offer at a firm paying a $25k bonus and I accept. After I accept but before I start, the firm bumps its bonus to $35k. Do I get $25k or $35k?

You should get the $35k. If you don't ditch that ttt and go work at a real firm.

"Lowly law clerks" is a joke, right?

Sorry, but color me unsympathetic to the plight of the "lowly law clerks." I certainly understands firms wanting to remain competitive with each other in attracting clerks by raising clerkship bonuses. But I'm not buying any argument that clerks are somehow getting the shaft because their signing bonuses aren't larger. You chose to be a clerk, and a government employee. The consequence is that you make less money. Firms have no obligation or incentive to make you whole because you chose to take a pay cut to work for the government.

You took the clerkship for the "prestige," training, and career advancement. That's your extra compensation.

This is excellent news. I think now is the time for me to ask my firm's recruiting director.

Y'all are living in a dream if you think firms are going to go to $200K anytime over the next two years.

10:49 - So you're saying I only have to wait three years? Sweet!

10:49: you're a loser.

I like Laurie. I hope that she will be posting again tomorrow and not Billy.

Who matches by next Friday?

Future associates and those with outstanding offers at Cravath, DPW, Cleary, etc., need to get on the horn to their recruiting departments and pressure for a match. At a minimum, the major NY shops have to match this number. Staying at $15k would be pathetic.

I'm this_close to leaving my firm for one of these three.

9:02 - $15K is certainly not pathetic. Have you all forgotten that the clerks are coming in with "class credit" for every year they clerk? They're not coming in at the first year $160K salary but at the second or third year level. Really, I had to think what a "Lowly" clerk like yourself would say to a job offer from a federal agency.

8:50pm: Who said anything about clerks getting the shaft? This is about competition among firms, not about who *deserves* what. If you, clerk, are going to Davis Polk or Cravath, and your co-clerk is going to S&C or STB (virtually identical firms), why wouldn't you wonder why you are getting 35K less?

I'm sorry you didn't have the credentials to clerk and didn't like your miserable first-year associate life, but it's time to get off the bitter bus.

Firms don't have an obligation to do anything. Why pay a clerkship bonus or any kind of bonus to anyone? Why pay associates 160K? Hell, why not go back to the real old model and just not pay associates anything at all?

The worlds tiniest violin is playing for all of the "lowly" clerks.

As a 2 yr. clerk, i was hoping the Weil 35 + 35 model would catch on, but i guess 50K isn't that bad

10:04 --

Many clerks who return ARE, in fact, returning to the 160 scale, with salary reevaluation coming within a few months. So you're right that you are with your class on the salary level, but you don't start above 160, since your class is still at 160.

Not that I'm complaining -- 160+35 for my legal ability? Someone is WAY overpaying.

don't worry 10:13 about the big NY firms that are "overpaying." as a second year, you will be billed out by a big ny firm at around 350 dollars an hour. at 2300 hours, thats around $800,000 in revenue. so you are a bargain for the firm. and if big ny firm does its job right, it can save a company millions or billions, so the client gets a bargain too. everyone is happy...except for the 2300 hours part, of course.

I don't care what all you non-clerks say...while it is true that clerks are not "getting the shaft" because the learning experience of clerking far outweighs the monetary remuneration that comes with doing hours and hours of document review and b*tch work at a large firm, the sad fact is that clerks make about 1/4 of a first-year associate's salary. At the same time, they enter as first-year associates (for at least three months) with twice the knowledge-base as people in their same class. They are entitled to something more than the $15k that "top shops" are currently offering. We can agree to disagree.

how much is $50K after taxes?

10:38 -- 2 week take home is roughly 1500, so it comes out to 39000.

10:37 --

(a) no one made you clerk
(b) next year, you'll almost certainly be making more than (or equal to) your judge
(c) I'd be willing to wager that after 12 months of BigLaw, you'll desire your former post and the lower salary. Just a guess.

@ Crash and Burn....
Many ... I mean MANY ... top tier law students have the talent and credentials to work for some judge on the appellate level, but simply choose not to.

Not clerking is (gasp!) often a financial decision based on high loans. Clerking (and related jobs) have a value that *some* think is worth quite a bit. Others, however, choose (or must choose) to place value elsewhere.

Perhaps this helps explain why millionaires fight for comparatively low-paying public service jobs (such as President): they can afford to accept payment in a manner that others can not.

If you are indeed a clerk, take a hard look at your co-clerks and see who actually had to pay sticker for their education. Or pay at all --

_________________________________
And what makes you think you will have some special halo as a "second" year? You still have no clue how to do the job you spent 1-2 years avoiding. Trust me, only your marginally higher paycheck will seperate you in the doc review room.

You should consider yourself DAMN lucky to get a bonus in the first place. The sooner firms really look at the true cost of these "bonuses" versus retention, the better.

Lowly Law Clerk is so gracious as to make my "non-clerk" argument for me. You had a "great learning experience"; you avoided the "hours and hours of document review and b*tch work at a large firm". Clerking is OPTIONAL. If the benefits don't outweigh the costs, don't do it. Thanks to blogs like this, 3Ls considering clerkships have perfect information about those costs and benefits.

But at many Biglaw shops, the bump you get from clerking goes well beyond whatever cash they give you when you sign up. Appeals Court clerks, in my experience, are treated like royalty, and often are never required to dirty their hands with the stuff we "non-clerk" scrub litigators do. Clerking is a lottery in which people who know people are holding more tickets than people who don't know people. Clerking is a luxury that people who need a Biglaw salary in year 1 after law school simply cannot afford. Clerking is a great experience, but I'm just not sympathetic to the cause being advanced here that a $35K bonus is "paltry" and "an embarassment".

Everything is relative.

All too true, 11:09.

I think someone should start an official list of shame for the top NY firms that haven't gone up to 50K.

@ Crash and Burn at 10:05

Ditto on what 11:06 said. And anyone making a reference to "lowly law clerks" is implying that clerks have gotten the shaft. You haven't actually argued anything in your post. As I said, certainly firms will try to match each other's clerkship bonus in order to compete. But some people here have framed the argument as if clerks are somehow getting screwed.

Life is full of choices. And if you chose to go to a firm that is giving you a $15k or $35k bonus, then you made a bad one. Or you weren't good enough to go to a firm that pays more. Either way, your bad.

If you have a $50K bonus, you're NOT taking home $39K. Wishful thinking, my lad.

I second the official ATL list of shame idea. Now that three top NY firms have raised from $15K to $50K, there should be enough momentum for their peer firms to match. Time for ATL to step in...

11:09:

First of all, clerks would be quite happy with $35k. It's the presently existing $15k that we have a problem with.

Second of all, deciding not to clerk is a perfectly reasonable and honorable thing to do. Financial considerations weigh heavily in making that decision. To say, however, that most clerks didn't have to pay full price for their education is more than an overstatement. Virtually every clerk I know has massive law school debt just like you and most other biglaw associates. They have chosen to begin their career as a public servant, even despite their debt load. This is a choice, no question, so they can't complain too much. But that doesn't take away from the fact that, despite what you think, they are more prepared to practice than the average biglaw associate at equal points in their career. Major NY law firms attain the substantial value of the clerkship experience by, at this time, paying $15k. This may not even seem objectively low, but when other firms are paying between $35k and $50k, it is paltry and worthy of at least some rebuke.

Finally, I would recommend to any first- or second-year associate that has not clerked, especially those who have made the decision not to clerk for financial reasons, apply to clerk. It is an invaluable experience, which is one reason we shouldn't be complaining about the bonuses. But, maybe after a clerkship, when you are in these shoes, you'd understand why we think the experience is worth $35k or $50k to the firm, considering the return they attain on that investment.

So, we'll continue to complain and hope that the firms that call themselves "some of the best in the world" will seek to compete in the compensation race to reward the clerking experience in a monetary fashion, in addition to all of the other benefits.

11:29 -- I read that to be the 50K clerkship salary, not bonuses. Take home on a 50K bonus would be approximately 28,500, I think. My bad.

Talk about cheap! The "largest in the world" DLA Piper Rudnick is paying only 10K and the "entrepreneurial" Greenberg Traurig isn't paying any bonus at all. We need a list of shame!

Let the Eagle Soar,

Are you serious?

The whole point of this discussion is that ALL of the TOP firms (ie: Cravath, S&C, DPW, STB, Cleary, etc.) have offered $15k clerkship bonuses in the recent past. As a result, some of the top law students and, subsequently, clerks in the country were the ones subjected to the $15k bonuses. These students/clerks were getting the best legal jobs in the country. To say that those who chose to take a job at one of these places is "bad" or "not good enough to go to a firm that pays more" is outrageously ignorant.

Now that some of that peer group has raised, it is reasonable that those with offers or who have accepted at a firm that has not raised should seek equivalent compensation.

You are forgiven. In the name of the . . .

Still, if Cravath, Cleary, DPW, etc. don't raise (and I imagine almost all will follow), I'm not sure why'd you go there post-clerkship. Cravath, Cleary, DPW, Simpson, S&C -- they're all the same.

C'mon DPW, step up... Those loans are going to make me choose Paul Weiss if you dont match.

Couldn't agree more, 11:49.

I've already committed to Cravath and i am going to withdraw if they don't match...but i am sure both they and DPW will...

Breaking: Weil goes to $50K.

What's with this talk about "needing" to pay off law school debt, hence being forced to take a firm job rather than a clerkship? Lenders will happily give you a year's forebearance on repayment while you're clerking. And the firm bonus at the end more than makes up for the additional interest you've accumulated over the course of the year.

2 week take home of 1500????? That's a monthly after tax salary of 3k. Are you in the 80% tax bracket?

Hey Lat - in other news, the salary war is ramping up in philly. two more firms have announced going to 145k . . . it would be nice if you ran topic on this, I'd like to know if other firms are matching and if MLB and Dechert will step their salaries up.

"Breaking: Weil goes to $50K."

Is this a fact??

The "market" firms in NYC all need to match . . . now!

Shame . . . .

CSM
SASMF
DPW
CGSH

"Hey Lat - in other news, the salary war is ramping up in philly. two more firms have announced going to 145k . . . "

Where exactly is Philly?

I know it ranges, but my two-week take home in my circuit court clerkship is $1630. So the monthly pay is a little more than double that since there's a little over 4 weeks in a month. It ain't always pretty, although it's not horrible. But my lender (post-consolidation) wasn't really interested in the whole year of forbearance thing. Neither was my private lender.

2:54-

some of those firms listed aren't going to match because their "prestige" value (or somethign else), in their eyes, are worth the 35k in the clerk marketplace.

That said, it makes absolute sense that the "almost there" firms ought to be upping the clerking bonus to attract individuals that might otherwise go to the top of the top.

Of course, if the clerks actually bring what they [or the firms] think they bring to the table, seems to me that a competitive increase [at match or thereabouts] is a drop in the bucket for the [long]-term talent...

Or maybe it's simply a reflection of the firms' attitudes on the fungibility of associates...

11:43

Good point, sort of. But you didn't quite realize that most of my posts are semi-sarcastic. I was simply playing to the moronic sensibilities (and insecurities) of a lot of the people on these boards (namely, law students) who believe that the TOP law firms only include those that pay the highest salaries, bonuses, and clerkship bonuses. Also, my post was in response to a particular post, which made a host of assumptions that I was "bitter" and/or incapable of obtaining a clerkship. That statement by the original poster was silly and baseless. My assumption that paying $50k makes a firm the top law firm was also baseless. But I knew that when I wrote it. I wrote it mostly to prove a point.

Thanks for playing.

$200000000000000000000K BONUS!!!!

I'm so happy I'm crying!!!

3:14, Philadelphia is located in the state of Pennsylvania. Fun fact, it's the 5th largest city in the United State you pretentious prick!

yes, weil is at 50. it's legit.

What's the source for the Weil match?

Laurie can you look into this Weil rumor please! and what are they doing with 2yr. clerks?

As a futurelawclerk with 200K debt and rising with interest, i certainly am all for firms raising clerkship bonuses. Firms benefit from lawyers who are familiar with the ins and outs of courts and have a great deal of writing experience. When law school began, starting salary was 125 now it's 160 and clerkship bonuses are the same. Offhand, i know stroock clerkship bonus is 10K (!?!) and others are still piddling at 15K - why shouldn't I apply to firms offering 35 or 50K? It's about firm competition and my resume's in the mail if my firm doesn't want to ante up. If I'm worth more to another firm, I'll go there..

not many will be able (or willing) to match the clerkship bonuses at Sullivan and co.

There has long been a disparity among firms regarding clerskship bonuses and many big NY firms still don't give them, particularly firms with a transactional focus. I know, I had a federal clerkship and I'm at one of those firms (althought I did get the salary bump).

dude, learn how to write while clerking next year!