Powell Goldstein (ATL based, somewhat comparable to McKenna): 130k.

Jones Day in Atlanta and Chicago:

What are you waiting for?

Fish & Richardson is paying $160k in Atlanta.

Another week without Jenner raising? Lat can you make a Friday afternoon phone call? Please!

do people think atlanta has a greater COL than say Philly or Chicago?

Atlanta associates are being compensated extremely well for the COL in the city.

Lat - You definitely need to call Jenner and Block. They are the last to trigger another tier of Chicago firms.

NALP put Jones Day ATL at 135k. Is that accurate?

Finally.

I know that y'all are getting screwed (as metro sizes go -- especially when compared to Charlotte and, in some cases, even Richmond). I don't care about COL -- what about billables?

I presume that there's a healthy general corporate practice down there, but there's really no finance to speak of. M&A? King & Spalding isn't even getting Coke's stuff anymore.

Is it just that the sophistication (literally) of the work up-for-grabs in ATL is a bit lower than the work in the rest of these 160 markets?

"[T]hese 160 markets" should not be taken to mean Charlotte and Richmond, by the way -- Chicago, LA, SF, Philadelphia, and NY, but not CLT or Richmond...

No Philadelphia firm is at $160 even though there IS a sophisticated corporate practice both at MLB and Dechert.

Atlanta doesn't remotely compare to Chicago or Philly cost of living wise.

Jones Day is nice enough to tell us compensation fo reach of their offices: http://www.jonesday.com/careers/usa/students/associatelife/compensation/

ATL is 135

I'd take $145 or even $130 in Atlanta over $160 in LA/Chi/DC/NY. The COL is cheap and the weather's great 9 months out of the year.

Atlanta is cheaper than Chicago and Philly but the COL calculators are misleading. Living in town in Atlanta is pretty expensive. It's the very cheap burbs that, when averaged in with the rest of the metro area, really drag down the averge house price.

The main ssue is that the top 2-3 Atlanta firms have outstanding practices and can easily afford to compete nationally on salaries. But they just don't want to. There is some silly belief that Atlanta itself will attract talent even at below market pay. Anyone who has spent anytime in Atlanta should know what a crock that is.

That Atlanta as a market now pays less than Richmond and Charlotte is a complete joke.

agreed 4:34... really dont get why philly is getting screwed salary wise.

Was there ever any word on the changes to MW's bonus plans as a result of the salary increase?

You mightbe indifferent between 130 in Atlanta and 160 in NYC, but at the top end of the scale the difference approaches 6 figures. Frankly the starting pay in Atlanta is not so bad; the compression, though, is horrible.

I don't care about COL.

Why are ATL firms (with the exception of Fish&Rich) not raising or, if raising, doing so retartedly?

COL in Atlanta isn't as low as everyone thinks. I thought that when I came here, too.

You better buy a house within 5 miles of your building because traffic here is ridiculous. Those houses are all small really expensive (600K minimum). And, if you have kids, public schools here are horrible. There are really excellent privates, but they charge what a private liberla arts college does.

If 90 and humid as hell four months of the year is your idea of great weather, more power to you.

A raise is coming; K&S and A&B can't stay where they are and hope to recruit effectively. Will they do anything about compression,and which firms will choose not to raise atall? Those are the questions.

By Sept 1 I predict you'll see K&S, A&B, Sutherland, Troutman and Kil Stock at $145.

SGR, PoGo, Arnall Golden and McKenna will not raise at all.

Compression is the real issue here in Atlanta. I think the old DC scale (i.e., 145 and not so compressed) is appropriate here. Even 130 for first years without the compression would be. Over the course of a 7-year career, an associate in Atlanta is paid half a million less than an associate in DC. That's serious change, and it doesn't even account for the paltry bonuses paid here (except Paul Hastings, which pays huge bonuses here)/

What is Jenner and Block anyway, and why do people always post about it? Is that a real law firm? Or is it just some kind of inside joke?

K&S needs to put up or shut up. AmLaw 36, PPP $1.4 million...... Some really sophisticated groups. But so cheap on associate comp. it's incredible. It's like trying to take a quarter from scrooge.

I too want to know what Jenner is going to do. This is taking completely too long.

"retartedly"

If you are going to use the word retardedly at least spell it correctly.

K&S = Judge Smails.

"You'll get nothing and like it."

Any of these firms with Atlanta offices are probably extra cheap there:

Continuing CA List of Shame:

1) Thelen Reid*
2) Perkins Coie
3) Bryan Cave
4) Townsend*
5) Baker & McKenzie
6) Seyfarth Shaw
7) Foley
8) Greenberg Traurig
9) Holland & Knight
10) Nixon Peabody

* denotes CA-based firm

By now, I am so pissed it's hard to post anything other than a rant.

Atlanta's big 2 are both being out-paid (base and bonus) by out-of-town outfits (McGuire Woods, Hunton, Paul Hastings, etc.) and they have been for months. No response. Not even a calming: "We are looking at it." Charlotte goes to 145 (including A&B's office there), nothing in Atlanta. DC goes to 160. Silence. Meanwhile revenue and PPP are going through the roof and we are killing it.... 2400 is not uncommon.

The people I work with are so pissed it's amazing..... To quote Ice Cube: Atlanta partners at the big 2 "don't know, don't show, or just don't care about what's going on" in the rest of the country. They better act fast--this is going to have long-lasting effects on morale.

did alston d.c. raise...or is this just atlanta...

4:58

If you're going to post, make it something that people give a fuck about.

WGWAG and the carwash guy contribute more than you do.

hey 454: check out the american lawyer of top 20 elite law firms or go to www.jenner.com and get your head out of your ass. Did you take con law in law school, because Jenner has argued more cases in front of the US Supreme Court the last four terms than any other law firm..

4:57: have any of the summers at Jenner inquired? You guys are in the best position to do so. What have they told you?

I think he was being "ironical"

Compression is definitely the problem. 130-185k max 1st-8th. I agree and have said before Atlanta Firms don't need to raise starting salaries but fix the compression. Pay the senior associates what they are worth.

On a side note Paul Hastings does pay large bonuses but it has to suck for the Atlanta office as it the only one NOT on the 160k national scale. Hard to swallow your peers in other offices making close to 100k more than you.

A&B paying its Charlotte associates substantiallymore was kind of like Sullivan & Cromwell opening a Newark office and paying those people $190k. It's insulting and ridiculous, but the firm just doesn't care.

The one bright spot is that the market now knows that the Atlanta firms' professed commitment to competitive salaries is complete bullshit. It's one thing to let Cali and WDC so substantially outpay Atlanta. But when you can make more money by moving from Atlanta to Raleigh, NC, then its obvious that these firms have no intention of being even minimally fair.

This whole rumor about going to 145 in Sept. isn't mollifying. Real firms put up and they often do retroactively when others beat them to the punch. Here, it's always the same. Feet-dragging, no retroactivity, snide comments in the press by firm leaders implying the raises are not derserved (a la A&B's chairman the last time they raised). And, when they do raise, it will be a stupid 15k across the board that does nothing about compression and we will be expected to go back to working 2200 plus with tiny bonuses.

Senior associates get the shaft here and the promise of partnership is going bye-bye at the places where it is worth a shit. My resume is going out to DC. Enough is enough.

As a mid-level in the ATL, I wholeheartedly agree that the compression is the problem. For instance, my next check will be smaller than a summer associate's in my Firm's DC, NY and CA offices. That just ain't right.

But in addition to mid-levels leaving ATL for Charlotte and DC (which I think is really happening right now), I think the differential in starting pay is also starting to show up in recruiting. I don't necessarily advocate paying first-year associates more (in part because they don't know anything, and in part because at least in Atlanta that rising tide hasn't raised my boat, so to speak), but if you are young, single and indifferent to practicing in Atlanta or DC, you'd be CRAZY to come to Atlanta right now. As a result, I think good Atlanta firms are taking summers and first years from schools they ordinarily would not have looked at. They may turn out to be great lawyers, but the money is clearly driving the more credentialed candidates farther north.

Compression has been exposed in Atlanta and law students should take note.

Starting pay used to be the only available information and firms liked it that way. There will and should be serious recruiting repercussions now.

Totally agree. The calculation a law student goes through has changed completely since I came to Atlanta. It used to be a no-brainer. Don't want to be in NYC, DC, or the West Coast but still want to do sophisticated work, get paid well, and live in a relatively cool urban area--go to Atlanta and work for the big boys.

But if I was in law school now, I wouldn't even interview with Atlanta's big two during OCI. Why shyoud I? Take over $500K less in base over 7 years (probably more like $750 if bonus disparity is included), work just as hard (the high-octane groups at A&B and K&S really bill, don't kid yourself) as the more lucrative markets? I don't think so. There is no comparison anymore.

And if Atlanta does raise soon, the bleeding is going to start. In recruiting, of course. But also because the best and brightest will lateral out. All of the all-stars I work with already have resumes out. Wake up Atlanta partners.

One more point bears mention: Yes, I am pissed about getting paid less. Granted.

But, at a deeper level, the bungling way my firm's has handled this (or, rather, totally refused to handle it or even address it) has caused me question their leadership abilities. I am totally dumbfounded. It just makes no sense. "Talk to your people" is as important as "pay your people." Incredible.

I thought Paul Hastings was only at 130k...

If true about the 160k at every other office but Atlanta, that is not cool. If you want to play national, implement a national scale like the rest of the big boys.

There is no reason to go to Atlanta right now. It used to be true that the lifestyle was better and the partnership prospects were great. Now, you get paid a lower starting salary than your peers in other Southern markets, you get absolutely crapped on as a mid and senior level, you work very close to NY hours and you don't make partner. Only the first (and least important) part will be solved by a move to 145. Awesome.

Sadly, I don't think this will change until more national firms come to town and pay the national scale.

Southern-based firms that pay more than King & Spalding:

Hunton & Williams
Moore & Van Allen
McGuireWoods
A&B (Charlotte and Raleigh)
Kilpatrick (capital markets)
Kennedy Covington (mid and senior levels)

Wow, Atlanta is really a total shithole. As a former summer at a top 2, I am thanking my lucky stars that I decided to go elsewhere. A & B paying more to their charlotte associates than their home office - you've got to be shitting me! The 5K a year rise in pay as you become more and more of a workslave bitch...thanks i'd rather remain a 1st year with no skills and less responsibility. The chances at partnership....laughable. And the COL - its not that unbelievable. The fact is that the HAYS brothers run shit in Atlanta and they have collusively decided that they're sticking to their guns. Law students and lawyers - you can either want to be in ATL and ltake it in the pooper or get the f out of dodge.

I am due to start at Jones Day after my clerkship term. The clerkship bonus is $35k, up from $20k and this decision was made fairly recently.

When comparing salaries keep in mind JD's bonus structure. (discretionary and not much and all of it is black box).

I can't believe I chose to come to Atlanta. What a mistake. Law students: DO NOT COME HERE! Even if you are from Atlanta, go to DC or Chicago, or NYC, or the West Coast. Hell, go to Charlotte or Richmond fucking Virginia. Make some bank for 4 or 5 years and then come back in-house if you must. Summer associates, go back to school and do OCI as a third year.

K&S has made PPP the end-all, be-all and they will go to any lenghts to make that number go ever up--including shitting on their associates. The game plan is obvious: we are going to slide into the AmLaw top 25 by cutting costs and running a sweatshop in Atlanta (pay the associates shit and charge near NYC rates). And this whole gambit of holding the raise back until September so they can pocket 6 months of cash. How short-sighted can you be?

het clerk: go interview elsewhere. trust me. you're not locked in yet. don't join this shit show.

I second the comments about Atlanta being a great deal back in the day, but no more. Atlanta used to have its fair share of "lifestyle" firms where you really could put in 1750 billables and get away with it. When the city went to $115,000 to start, the pressure turned on.

Now that we're at $130,000, if you don't have 1,900 minimum, you're 'on notice' and you won't get a raise. Shortly thereafter, you'll be shown the door. The consequence, of course, is that there is no "lifestyle" about Atlanta anymore. Everyone I know is working all the time and getting sub-Charlotte wages and shit for bonuses. For those of you that don't know the Atlanta market, the bonus structure here is awful. Hit 2,300...good job...here's a $10,000 bonus. Absolute crap! Summers beware - go to Charlotte if you must be in the South. Stay away from Atlanta.

I'd take Charlotte over Richmond any day. Richmond just SUCKS, and don't let anyone tell you different.

Sorry to say that I have to totally agree with the bad news above. I'm a mid-level at one of the big 2. Everyone I know here who is worth a damn has their resume out. I think some partners have badly over played their hand and are in for a rude awakening.

What are PPP like at these firms?

K&S 1.3 million
then A&B and two others are at around 700-800K
and a bunch at 500-600K

Kilpatrick Stockton is paying $145K for capital markets. Those spreadsheets aren't going to fill themselves.

What about K&S and A&B summer associates in DC and other cities? Do they know they're making considerably less than their classmates? That'll be a fun conversation when everybody gets back to campus.

Regardless, it doesn't look like they can raise. They don't have the money.

Who cares if Jones Day published the compensation for first years on its website. When they are paying 2nd class wages to its associates in Atlanta and Chicago (less than TX), the associates and summers can give a rat's a$$ about its website.

NYC to 190!

Don't have the money for a raise my ass.

K&S has the highest PPP and revenue of any firm in the southeast. Yet they are out paid in their own backyard. A number of firms below K&S on the AmLaw that pay 160 to an equal number of associates. No one gets away with paying the bulk of their associates 130, and eighth years 180 Don't get me wrong. I am not advocating that Atlanta should be at 160. I actually think 130-145 for a first year is perfectly fine here. It's compression and how the mid-levels and senior associates are getting shafted that is the issue. A seventh/eighth year in Atlanta makes less than a second/third year in DC and NYC now--not counting bonus. That's indefensible. Must be nice for a seventh year at K&S Atlanta who is running a case to get on the phone and tell first years in K&S' NYC office what to do when the first years up there are making FAR more money. That's great for morale.

Take a gander at the AmLaw. K&S is the highest ranked firm to have done nothing (except the raise in its NYC office). Nada in DC (I think K&S is the highest revenue firm that has not moved to 160 in DC). Nada in Atlanta despite Hunton, McGuire Woods and others uping the ante.

How bad a partnership chances at the big 2? General BigLaw bad, or worse? Are some practive areas better for partnership chances?

It seems with such awful compression that the mid-levels seem to be staying. Is this the case?

Partnership chances at the big two are the same as general biglaw, especially at K&S. And getting worse as they move toward the AmLaw 25. That carrot isn't effective anymore--they make 2 or 3 partners a year in their Atlanta offices. My friends and I laugh when someone makes that argument. There is a huge (but atill developing) problem re senior associate attrition. Compression + declining chances of partnership = bye bye baby. The compression is a late-breaking story though. Until recently, I don't think Atlanta senior associates really realized how badly they were being shafted--half a mil in base alone over 7 years. Now, the jig is up. Smart money leaves.

While I work for one of the many chicago firms that did raise, I was out with some poor chaps from Jenner last night, who insisted that I pay for drinks since they are getting paid under market. Come on Jenner, step up to the plate, I don't want to have to be buying the drinks all summer!
But hey, I am sure the referral fees for some of their talented associates will more than make up the difference.

I agree Atl should be comparable pay to similar cities with similar COL (Richmond, Houston, Dallas, Charlotte) that salary compression is significant, and bonuses are piss-poor.

That said, most everything else about the City said above is absolutely untrue. In town COL is expensive but doable, with several quality in-town public schools to choose from (certainly as compared to DC, NYC, Philly etc.) Chances of making partner, billable requirements, etc, are all wildly exaggerated above. Atlanta is a great town and a great place to work.

The media called out Thelen yet again -- in the Cal Law blog.

http://legalpad.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/06/postponing_the_.html

June 06, 2007
Postponing The Inevitable (Associate Raises)

Reed Smith has joined Manatt, Phelps on the list of firms proclaiming “WE ARE PAYING OUR ASSOCIATES $160K (but not until next year, suckers!)”

The firm, with its $940K profits per partner, said the raises in California and elsewhere are effective Jan. 1, 2008, adding that the associate bonus program has been enhanced for this year.

Another big firm with $825K PPP, Sonnenschein, also raised in California effective July, which leads us to wonder — whither Thelen? It’s the last big firm with lower but decent profits ($850K PPP, or $820K PPP with combined totals from its merger with Brown Raysman) on the Cal Law 25 not to make a move.

Let us know what you think — what will Thelen do?

130K is not bad for the ATL. I do think compression is the main issue though. With that being said, there is a HUGE dropoff b/w what the BIGLaw firms are paying (i.e. K&S, A&B, PoGo, etc.) versus what more midsize regional firms are paying. We're talking about a 50K difference. Many of the ATL litigation firms that have about say 60 or more associates, only pay around 80K. I know that insurance defense firms are not on, or close to, the same level as the larger firms, but a 50K difference is outstanding. I am clerking now, but I interviewed with some of these smaller firms (e.g., Carlock Copeland: an appx 80 lawyer litigation firm mainly doing insurance defense) and discovered they only pay around 80K. With that being said, even though I am not that interested in BIGlaw and hope to avoid it, its really hard to turn down the 50K difference starting. So, it seems that part of the problem with the ATL salaries is that there really isn't any competition in the ATL. If the ATL firms are forced to compete with the NY, DC, Chicago talent then I'm sure that would lead them to raise, but for now, if they continue to recruit outstanding legal talent, why would they raise? I'm not saying they shouldn't, but I'm just looking at it from their viewpoint.

By the way, speaking of regional markets, has anyone noticed Tampa? Its only about 6 to 7 hours south of ATL. Its not as large as ATL, but the starting salary at many of the Tampa firms that are large FLA firms is 92K according to NALP. Maybe the low starting salaries has alot to do with the these southern cities being far from the DC, NY, Chicago markets, and thus they don't feel the need to compete for the talent???

Billing requirements and partnership chances wary wildly among Atlanta's firms. At the big 2, if you are on a high-octane group, you will bill on par with larger markets (2200-2400) and your chances of making partner aren't any better than in DC or Chicago certainly. I know folks who came down from Skadden and S&C and have said it really isn't that different after all. At the regional firms (SAB, MM, PoGo...) it is totally different, but the work is quite a bit different too (not as interesting) and making equity partner means your get $400k.

I am speaking strictly about the comparison between K&S and A&B (and out-of-town firms in AmLaw 100 with an Atlanta office) and similar firms in other markets. From this perspective, Atlanta has fallen significantly behind in terms of attractiveness. Again, 500k is base alone over the course of 7-year career. That will pay off Harvard loans and buy half pretty nice house. Think about it.

Don't get me wrong, I like Atlanta. It has a lot going for it. But if I am going to bill 2300 and not have a good shot at making partner, why should I not run up to DC an take the money. It doesn't make sense anymore for current associates of law students. Now, if the Atlanta firms that try to compete nationally fix compression and pay real bonuses, the equation changes back.

What about Miami?

Hm, F&R seems to be the place to be then. Their billables are 1900.

I grew up around Atlanta, went to undergrad and law around here, have a settled network of friends/family here and genuinely like the city. Yet even I am considering other places given the pay disparity.

If they are failing to keep a guy like me, how will they attract anyone else?

They won't. The summers at my firm are even grumbling about it. I had a double-Ivy kid ask me at lunch the other day why he should come to Atlanta now that the diparity is so great. I told him he'd be stupid to come and that I was trying to get out.

This is getting really ugly. It's gonna be a blood bath when the go on campus next fall if they don't do something. And, if they wait until then they'll need all the help they can get because the mid-levels will be gone.

The sad fact is they won't raise, because they will still fill their summer classes. They'll just have to take more summers from UGA, Emory, Florida, etc., and fewer from the top 10. But Atlanta firms already hire tons of law students from regional schools, and judging by their reluctance to raise salaries, they don't mind going further in that direction.

I agree. But I also think the pull of DC, Charlotte, Dallas, Houston and other southern cities paying more will be too much and the Atlanta firms will have a more difficult time competing for even those students. Best case is they will have to go deeper in the class. Emory places well outside of the south--always has. More folks might take advantage of that reach now. And as UGA's stock continues to rise, its students might too.

In any case, this all points to lower (perceived) quality of talent, more difficulty increasing rates going forward, and general stagnation of the legal market. It will take time, of course, but it will happen if they dig their heels in.

For the fool who speculated that you cannot do top-flight M&A work in Atlanta: K&S was 19th in deal value and 22nd in number of deals in 2005, and 18th in deal value in Q1 2007. Caremark/CVS was the fourth largest deal in the US in 2006. That took three seconds to find out on the firm website. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't post.

I say that not because I love K&S (although I did enjoy summering there a couple years ago) but just to show that a lot of the anti-Atlanta crap is BS. The work at A&B or K&S is as good and engaging as anywhere (and in certain prcatice groups of other firms). The weather is great except for a couple months in summer, the COL is fantastic for a city with 5M people, and you can get good work. I don't live there anymore (moved for personal reasons), but if I was coming out of school today, I'd still consider it.

Compression is terrible (did not realize that until I had already decided to work in the city) and at A&B or K&S you will be putting in near-NY/DC hours, though. Bonuses are hardly worth mentioning, they are so small. Like others have suggested, the better fix would probably be associate pay down the line rather than starting salaries. 130K in Atlanta and you're living very well, even with some debt.

Texas Offices at $160K
Dewey Ballantine (Austin - 9)
Fish & Richardson (Austin - 9, Dallas - 30)
Gibson Dunn & Crutcher LLP (Dallas - 27)
McKool Smith LLP (Dallas - 46)
Skadden Arps LLP (Houston - 19)
Weil Gotshal LLP (Dallas - 57, Houston - 46)
Wilson Sonsini (Austin - 32)

Texas Offices at $150K
Dechert LLP (Austin - 6)
Jones Day LLP (Dallas - 109, Houston - 26)

Atlanta partners please fix the real problem, compression and you will find a really great response. The following imho would be a pretty solid scale for Atlanta.

130k
140k
155k
170k
185k
200k
210k
220k

Although I think the old DC 145 scale is more appropriate given where the national market is, I think we all know that that isn't going to happen. As such, I could live with the scale posted above--assuming Atlanta firms start paying real bonuses. This kill yourself for $10,000 shit isn't going to get it anymore. Paul Hasting pays real bonuses.... What's your excuse A&B and K&S?

Re: 9:13

According to Greedy Texas, V&E had a summer associate meeting last week where Dilg announced that the firm will NOT be raising salaries. This is incredibly bad news for the Texas market because none of the other "big Tex" firms are leaders and none will raise unless V&E does. So the fate of the Texas market looks grim. Any law student that wants to practice in Texas and has an option with any of the firms that pay more than V&E will certainly take the offer with the firm that pays more. Good luck on campus in the fall V&E! You'll need it.

Jenner to 15-20 equity partners - DING!

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1181293534975

All the major ATL firms (K&S, A&B, SAB, KS) are paying 160k for IP associates. For IP work, ATL has challenging work that appears on par with IP work in all other markets.

"That said, most everything else about the City said above is absolutely untrue. In town COL is expensive but doable, with several quality in-town public schools to choose from (certainly as compared to DC, NYC, Philly etc.) Chances of making partner, billable requirements, etc, are all wildly exaggerated above. Atlanta is a great town and a great place to work."

Who are you kidding? COL in ATL isn't what it used to be. Sure you can buy a sweet pad in the burbs for $400k, but you're spending 1.5 hrs. per day in the car. That's fun while trying to bill 8-9 hrs. a day and still see your kids while they're awake.

Traffic/comute times force most to live inside the perimeter where housing prices are OUTRAGEOUS.

Public school in Atlanta? Have fun with that. There are only two districts within in-town ATL where anyone with half a brain would even consider sending their kids to public school. Naturally, home owners in these districts are aware of this fact, which results in houses in those districts being extremely expensive -- I mean really expensive. Thus, private school becomes your only rational option. It's great paying $650 a month for my 5yr. old to go to kindergarden. Can't wait for highschool which will be about 3 times in-state tuition at UGA.

The point being, COL is Atlanta isn't as great as some chalk it up to be. I was shocked upon arriving here how expensive it is -- most people are.

Sure, it ain't NYC, Chigaco, D.C., etc. That goes without saying. But with Atlanta salaries in their current state, the $500-$700k pay difference over 7 yrs. in those other markets starts to bridge the COL gap.

Dear Prospective Summer Associates:

Stay away from K&S's sattelite offices. You will not earn first rate compensation, and the fact that the firm is headquartered in a second-tier city will harm your career.

Current summer associates: Please ask when you will start making the same as your classmates who went to lesser firms.

"All the major ATL firms (K&S, A&B, SAB, KS) are paying 160k for IP associates. For IP work, ATL has challenging work that appears on par with IP work in all other markets. "

Can anyone verify this? I'm pretty sure this is untrue.

I can verify that SAB pays IP associates 160 to start.

The 2nd article above states that IP associates start at 160 at A&B, SAB, and DLA Piper in atlanta. Do IP associates face the same compression?

The post above re COL not being that low in Atlanta is spot on. If you have to live where most of use do (i.e., within a few miles of midtown because of the traffic) the houses are really expensive and the schools bad.

Atlanta is cheaper than Chicago and DC, but the disparity between those markets and Atlanta more than makes up the difference. Atlanta is simply not a good deal anymore--don't kid youself.

Summers: Start asking about the pay disparity between Atlanta and other markets. Sadly, they will listen to you before the listen to us. We are already on the hook; they still have to fool you guys.

Well, obvious there's no compression for F&R. I'd like to know if there's compression for the other firms though.

A couple points:
F&R is a Patent Boutique. Although they have a FEW attorneys that do non-IP work, they exist only to provide supplemental services to the IP clients. All the time on these boards people compare F&R's salary scale to general practice firms. They are apples and oranges, and unless you have a technical degree and a patent bar number, you might as well take them off of your radar screen and discard them for salary analysis purposes.

As for ATL IP work. The work that K&S and A&B are doing is high-level patent litigation. Seriously. I not only have first-hand knowledge, but also first hand knowledge of the measuring stick (CA/DC patent litigation). They have the same clients and the same big-ticket litigation as most, if not all, of the CA/DC patent firms. The ONLY difference, from my experience, is that the CA/DC market is so volitile given the unbelievable number of lateral moves each year that you will undoubtedly end up working at 3 firms before you make partner in those markets, whereas the ATL and other regional markets have far greater stability.

As for asking about pay disparity: quit bitching. If you think life is so awesome living in DC or NYC simply because they are making more money, then move. It's a stunningly simple solution. I doubt very much that most of the whiners have the balls or actual interest to do this. The big 2 in ATL know this, and will not succumb to the moaning of first and second year associates until they start losing associates. So call their bluff and move. Otherwise quit whining.

As for hurting recruiting, a firm isn't going to freak out about losing top summer associates. First, there's virtually no way to quantify lost summer associates, unless a summer to whom they give an offer explicitly states that the reason for electing NYC over ATL is salary based. This rarely happens, so all firms have to go on is anecdotal evidence that is usually discarded because it comes from those associates who bitch endlessly about salary. Second, there is a glut of qualified law students who will be clamoring to get those jobs, so they are not going to have empty offices during the summers. Given this, there is no loss, because often the "top" students at "top" law school turn out to be truly crappy lawyers. So you get 3 middle of the class vandy kids instead of 1 harvard and 2 yales. Who cares? So the firm loses a few of the people who likely won't have the stomach for the work and/or give up after a few years. Big deal.

Agreed Dr. Noisewater about the last two paragraphs (I know nothing about the subject in the first two paragraphs). I'm not in ATL now but might be when I finish my clerkship. I think there's this assumption that ATL firms are gonna go down hill if they aren't filled with top grads from Harvard, Yale and other T14 schools. But there are plenty of excellent law students from UGA, UNC, Mercer, FSU, UF, etc. I know everybody on this board likes to piss on the regional schools but many of the top ATL firms, specifically King and Spalding, were built by grads from regional schools. In the case of K&S, two Mercer grads, Frank Jones and Griffin Bell are largely responsible for where K&S is today. I'm sure somebody will mention that that was then and this is now, but the principle remains the same: You don't have to go to a top 14 school to be a great lawyer. Clarence Darrow never even graduated from law school, for example.

Listen no one is saying Atlanta firms are going to go down hill. They ARE going to lose out on the talent that they have previously deemed as important to having.

Furthermore, the people that say pick up and move as a mid to high level associate, obviously do not have families and or made even a ripple in their current firms. There are associates here that have put in a lot of time developing client relationships, partner relationships, and even community relationships. It is difficult to start over the proving process with a new firm, new market, and figuring out new partners, etc.

Also, the overall theme of these posts is not one of greed but fairness. No one is saying Atlanta to 160k or even 145k. They are responding with a thought out and fair assesment of the Atlanta market taking into account COL, partner profits, billing hours, regional markets, etc.

We are asking for less compression, rewarding those mid to senior associates that have shown loyalty to their firms and are pushing the PPP up.

Atlanta partners please understand we have a vested interest in our firms and the partnership. We are just asking for a fair scale,. please reward us with one.

"Given this, there is no loss, because often the "top" students at "top" law school turn out to be truly crappy lawyers. So you get 3 middle of the class vandy kids instead of 1 harvard and 2 yales. Who cares? So the firm loses a few of the people who likely won't have the stomach for the work and/or give up after a few years. Big deal."

But isn't King and Spalding REALLY PRESTIGIOUS? People in Atlanta think so, right? Pull some crap like that at the "best" firm in the city and watch the fun really begin. I mean that strategy is basically the same as outsourcing to India.

I agree. K&S' issue right now is getting taken seriously when pitching against Skadden, S&C, LW, and others for deals and litigation. Whether accurate or not, the folks making those decisions (in-house lawyers at Fortune 50 companies and I bankers) see those firms laden with Ivy grads and then look at K&S. K&S is pretty much tapped unless it starts wining more of those beauty contests. If K&S wants to crack into that club it needs to hire the most talented (real or perceived) law students and keep them around to see which ones turn into really great lawyers. So the question is whether K&S will pay what it needs to pay to live up to its pitch and promise. Will they pay with the big boys (no, I don't mean go to 160), or are they destined to remain on the outside looking in? That's why I think the issues you see discussed above are particularly important for K&S right now.

9:56's post frames the issue nicely, but comes to a totally ridiculous conclusion. If K&S want to get on the radar of those handing out the high stakes work, why should they hire Ivy associates, who will take a decade to bring in good work? It seems lost on most of the people posting here that those Fortune GC's know that 1st to 3rd year associate do little more than type. This is why the lateral partner market is so hot - K&S (and others) have decided to save money for the recruitment of known commodities- partners who bring clients and relationships with them- rather than waste the money on people who are only thinking $15,000 ahead.

We are not just asking for a fair scale because we think we are entitled to it, but because the firms assured us of it when we were recruited. These firms make a point of telling recruits that they are committed to paying what it takes to recruit top-flight students. That means they will move when the market moves. We now see that it's all a lie. The truth is far closer to "we'll move if and when we feel like it, even if it means screwing all of our existing associates."

It takes more than rainmakers to succeed as a law firm. You need a constant supply of talent at just about every level. A large crop of medicre associates will eventually have obvious effects on the quality of work a firm is pumping out, forcing the rainmakers to focus more on supervision and less on rainmaking.

Moreover, K&S is already at the peak of the partner pay market in the Southeast. Nothing it might do on associate comp will have the least effect on its ability to shower lateral partner candidates with money far in excess of what any other Atlanta firm can afford.

10:35. I don't disagree that K&S has decide hiring lateral partners is job 1 (for better or worse). And I do not believe that GCs look at firm rosters and count Ivy diplomas.

I do think that the general sense of a firm's prestige in the marketplace has a hell of a lot to do with the type of associates they can attract and I do think that matters. It's a chicken or egg debate, I know. But it is undeniable that hiring the baddest-ass lateral partners money can buy while shitting on your mid-level and senior associates (and the ones brought in by the lateral partners) is a short-sighted business plan that may work great for a half decade or so, but will catch up to the firm eventually. Over time someone will finally realize that the foundation is crumbling and the associate offices are turning into revolving doors (that move even faster than they do now). It's great to have Johnny-big-swinging-dick bringing over his bet the company litigation, but if there isn't anyone with any experience to write the winning briefs Johnny's big swinging dick is going to get chopped down to size.

Law students have an easy choice now. The information is available and they know which markets to practice in.

Why come to Atlanta over Charlotte?

Atlanta Charlotte
130k 145k
135k 145k
140k 155k
147k 170k
157k 190k
170k 210k
180k 225k
185k 240k

That is a difference of $236,000, and Charlotte may be going up further.

Wow. I knew it was bad, but I was trying to keep my head in the sand as to just how bad things are getting.

Double the disparity if you compare Atlanta and DC (i.e., is over $500K in base).

Something's gotta give.

No offense to Atlanta, which I think is a nice city, but people really need to stop comparing disparities between pay in Atlanta and cities like DC for reasons such as it costs $600k minimum to buy a "small" house near midtown Atlanta. $600k would maybe get you a small 2-BR condo in DC (or the reasonably close suburbs) or a house in a "transitional neighborhood" in DC, and I don't think you will want to send your kids to public school if you are living in most of those areas (nor would you want to live in a small 2-BR condo or a trashy neighborhood). I am in Texas and I feel the same way when I hear my peers complain about how much we get screwed. Perhaps we deserve a raise for other reasons, but all the people who think that the COL differentials between NY, DC, and LA and the smaller markets are insignificant should put their money where their mouth is and try moving to the more expensive markets. And as for the person who said that mid- to upper-level associates can't afford to just pick up and leave, your fellow Atlanta associates should all send you a thank you note, because you have just explained exactly why your firm will not be giving you a raise any time soon!

The $500K spread in reality is not very helpful. The fact is that only a very few associates stay with one firm an entire 7 years. If you want to become wealthy your best bet is to live beneath your means and save. If you are able to do that for seven years you can go work for the government or inhouse if you don't make partner. Yes your salary may be less but because you managed your money well you won't care. Moreover, you'll have a better life. Personally, I would not get caught up in what one market pays versus another. I would focus on controlling my family's spending and increasing my net worth. Those actions, rather than the whims of K&S or AB will have a much more signifant impact on my finances.

The $500K spread in reality is not very helpful. The fact is that only a very few associates stay with one firm an entire 7 years. If you want to become wealthy your best bet is to live beneath your means and save. If you are able to do that for seven years you can go work for the government or inhouse if you don't make partner. Yes your salary may be less but because you managed your money well you won't care. Moreover, you'll have a better life. Personally, I would not get caught up in what one market pays versus another. I would focus on controlling my family's spending and increasing my net worth. Those actions, rather than the whims of K&S or AB will have a much more significant impact on my finances.

"The $500K spread in reality is not very helpful. ... your best bet is to live beneath your means and save."

Right, because skipping that latte will make up that 40% pay disparity fast.

Well if you spend that 40% disparity it won't make a difference. One can complain all day about the disparity but it won't matter as long as there are a legion of students willing to work for these "slave" wages. I'm just making the point that by managing your money more efficiently, in terms of net worth, an atlanta lawyer will come out ahead of their Charlotte or DC counterpart who is a free spender. And yes, cutting down on the lattes over time will add up.

Arnall Golden is NOT at 130. They announced, but will not raise salaries until July 1.

I am summering at Jones Day and the issue of salary has not even come up. I can agree with many of the post about COL in Atlanta being high. I don't know why people think it is so cheap to live here but it's not. The houses inside the perimter are very expensive similar to what you would pay up North and the public schools are TERRIBLE. The traffic is a nightmare. If you live outside the permiter and don't plan on being in your office by 7:30, 8:00 am you can forget it. I came here thinking that Atlanta was going to be such a great deal but I am having serious reservations. And since there isn't any conversation about pay increases I am not sure that it's worth it to stay. Also, the fact that you are billing similar hours and not getting a bonus is crazy. There is seriously something wrong when summers are thinking about going to Charlotte over Atlanta. How would a summer pose the question of salary increases?

I was an associate in DC and moved to ATL to be near family. I am now a mid-level associate and I was shocked to learn about the compression in ATL. The COL is relative and it really is only reflected in real esate because everything else is the same price as in DC. While you can buy more