Thelen Reid Associates: On the Trail of Tiers
We recently wrote about the two-tier associate compensation system just announced by Thelen. Associates who work 2,000+ hours a year are paid on the $160,000 scale, while associates who work less remain on the old $145,000 scale.
Sounds sensible and fair, right? Well, maybe not so much. What if you WANT to be on the faster track, earning a market-rate salary, but the firm won't let you? We hear that Thelen is effectively telling some of its associates, "Please, guys, don't work so hard -- 'cause we can't make it worth your while anyway!"
Here's one source at the firm on how the two-tier system is being received:
Most people seem cool with it because it included hours-based bonuses for hitting 2000, 2100, and 2200. But there are some slow practice groups in certain offices where a decent number of associates got put on the lower tier, and those people are less happy.
Indeed. We received an email from one of those less-than-happy campers. It's pretty scathing -- but deservedly so.
Check it out, after the jump.
From a pretty ticked-off associate:
The LA office is not pleased. First off, the office has lost over 20 associates and partners (23 as of next Friday to be exact) since the merger was announced, most of those in the commercial litigation department. There has not been much work. The national com lit chairs were even flown in to reassure everyone that the department and office was okay -- i.e., not closing -- and that the lack of hours would not be held against anyone.
Pretty grim. And it gets worse:
Then, due to this "down cycle," all the com lit associates were placed on the lower tier. All the associates, except for the first-years, summers and incoming first years (Sept. 2007) -- they were given the "benefit of the doubt," and did not have the current slow trend held against them.
Here's what's most perverse about the situation:
In sum, we have second and third years making less or the exact same as first years. First years will not get raises in December, unless the next six months markedly improve in terms of busy-ness. All of this would be fine and good if the associates could CHOOSE their tier, but this is not the case.It is clear that the firm does not value its mid-level associates and in effect is asking everyone to go find work elsewhere. I don't know one person here not interviewing, and I would caution anyone considering the firm to look at the entire compensation structure, not just first-year starting salaries.
But hey, there is a silver lining to this proverbial cloud:
That being said, if you want a lifestyle firm where it is okay to bill 1700 hours and still get paid pretty well, but not market, then Thelen is the place for you.
Hey, we have an idea. Remember these kids? Why not just disband Law Students Building A Better Legal Profession, and hire all of its members at Thelen?
Earlier: Nationwide Pay Raise Watch: Thelen Reid, and A Tale of Two Tiers
(21) Comments
White Girls With Asian Guys
Lat - the new A-List has been announced today, do a piece on that
I would take $145k for 1700 hours. I'm surprised anyone wouldn't.
I guess I'm one who thinks my work should facilitate my life and not dominate it.
What kind of clueless and ignorant e-mail is that?
If there is no work, then not only will you be on the lower tier, YOU WILL EVENTUALLY LOSE YOUR JOB. Big firms don't pay you by picking the money tree. No lawyer CHOOSES not to have work. The market makes that choice. If the market doesn't want to hire you and your firm then tiers are the least of your worries.
THELEN FOLKS - GIVE US THE DIRT ON THE BROWN RAYSMAN MERGER.
DID PICKING BR UP HELP OR HURT YOUR FIRM?
SAME QUESTION FOR BR FOLKS. DID MERGING WITH TR HELP OR HURT YOUR FIRM?
I definitely would, too, 12:09
yeah, but how does this work in reality? Do you clock out of work everyday at 5:30? Are you prohibited from billing more than 7 hrs a day? How do you work like that in a large firm? Its impossible in most places I know.
At last...another bit of hope on the horizon.
As 12:09 stated - it is good to know that there is a place where you can make good money for reasonable (1700) hours.
Funny thing, on a per hour basis, those at the 145k for 1700 hours are better paid then the 2100 $160. Those extra 400 hours bring in only $15k ==> $37/h, which is less then half of the going rate.
$145k/1700h = $85/h
$160k/2100h = $76/h
For comparison:
To make $85/h at $160k salary = 1882 billable hours
To make $76/h at $145 salary = 1907 billable hours
That means, if you have to work even 190 hours a year more for your $15k, you are NOT getting a raise.
(Since I'm already doing math, those losers working 2400 hours for their $160k + $20k bonus are making only $75/h...HA HA HA HA HA)
I gladly would take a track where I could work fewer hours in exchange for less pay.
However, I would have a healthy distrust that I would end up working 2000 hours anyways and just get screwed on the deal. You can try to keep work off of you, it doesn't always work that way.
I'm at Thelen, and I think the tier system is a good thing. Associates in my group bill 2000 easily - we couldn't get away with billing less - and I was damn tired of watching some associates leave at 5:30 knowing that they were getting the same $$ I was (bonuses at the time didn't come close to making up for it). Those placed on the 1900 track need to quit their bitching - you aren't going to get paid for not working; here's a thought, find work at one of our other offices - that's an easy thing to do at Thelen - don't just sit at your desk and moan.
Shorter 1:09
"I got mine."
1:18
Fair enough. : )
But every six months an associate's hours are reviewed and if they are pacing 2000, they get bumped into the pay scale for the 2000 track. Once a year you can get bumped out of 2000 into the 1900 track (but I don't know if you get a pay cut - that part is confusing.) So any Thelen associate that is pacing 1900 is getting paid for 1900, but as soon as their hours go up, so does their pay. And don't post again with another "I got mine" for this one. That's dumb.
1:18
Fair enough. : )
But every six months an associate's hours are reviewed and if they are pacing 2000, they get bumped into the pay scale for the 2000 track. Once a year you can get bumped out of 2000 into the 1900 track (but I don't know if you get a pay cut - that part is confusing.) So any Thelen associate that is pacing 1900 is getting paid for 1900, but as soon as their hours go up, so does their pay. And don't post again with another "I got mine" for this one. That's dumb.
Yeah, 145K for 1700 hours sounds nice.
But is it really 1700 hours? Lat said "Associates who work 2,000+ hours a year are paid on the $160,000 scale, while associates who work less remain on the old $145,000 scale."
Other firms are at 160K for minimums of 1900 or 1950; isn't THAT really the point?
Also, ditto to 1:07; as a junior associate, it's not like I can just tell the partner I won't do their project becuase I'd end up billing over 2000.
I'm with 1:09 - I'm in a busy practice group at Thelen and well into bonus territory. And it's honestly not that hard to get work from another office.
And 12:12 - business is good, except for ComLit in LA, especially if you're in a transactional group.
Continuing CA List of Shame:
1) Bryan Cave
2) Baker & McKenzie
3) Foley Lardner
4) Greenberg Traurig
5) Holland & Knight
6) Nixon Peabody
Permanent All City List of Shame
1) Seyfarth Shaw for planning not to raise.
It should be pointed out that while Seyfarth deserves to be on the List of Shame they do pay $160k in their NY office.
"Other firms are at 160K for minimums of 1900 or 1950; isn't THAT really the point?"
At many firms, 1950 doesn't really mean 1950....
Greenberg Traurig announced their raise yesterday, moving to the $160,000 salary scale. Hours did not increase but bonuses will no longer be rewarded if you fail to meet the 1850 threshold. If you meet the 1850 minimum, you will still get a bonus but the salary increase given will likely lessen the usual bonus payout.
Baker & McKenzie just raised to 160k in SF/PA but upped hours from 1900 to 2000.
Baker & McKenzie just raised to 160k in SF/PA but upped hours from 1900 to 2000.
Baker & McKenzie AND Greenberg raised?! In DC too? You give me memo now!