ANTI-SEMITES!

To reader #1:
"editing he and his wife out"? Seriously, where did you learn grammar?

To Feldsuk:
What a shanda! You went to a yeshiva, where you're expected to be a yeshiva bocher. And you have the audacity to fall in love with a Gentile? Who cares about your reunion? Love your wife and kids. Nebuch on the yeshiva. Go to Zaftig's on Beacon Street and be proud!

At least he's not larding up the pages of the NYT mag with his usual banal observations along the lines of "Islam has no formal position on nuclear weapons because they post-date the Prophet Muhammad" (paraphrase).

Pretty stupid of Maimonides.... They should have just not used the picture with FeldSuk in it. I'm sure they took dozens of pictures at the reunion. There would be no story if they just used a different pic rather than editing it.

What's the controversy? Aren't most Jewish schools/Jewish charities/Jewish attorneys/Jewish [___] the same way? The key word here being "most". Obviously, not everybody in the Jewish community is like that. But, let's just say that in most elite colleges, law schools, etc. it isn't exactly unusual for the Jews to look down upon/not associate with/not date the non-Jews. Don't kill me here. I'm just saying what I've observed. Again, not all Jews are like this; just the majority of Jews I've met. Case in point: my wife and I were good friends with a Jewish couple of the same age. We both had babies at the same time, we both moved to the 'burbs at the same time, etc. Except...we noticed that our Jewish friends would never invite us or the other non-Jewish couple they are friends with to their home for birthdays, parties, barbeques, etc. when their Jewish friends were over. It was like they were trying to keep their non-Jewish friends hidden. Heck, maybe its a NY issue. Maybe not. Again, Feldsuk's shocked, shocked (!) that the Jewish community is acting like this? Um, didn't he grow up with this? I can't imagine this is the first time he's observed it. I feel bad for him but hey, welcome white man to the world of minorities.

Have you read the essay??? There is no bitching, whining, or complaining. The story is simply told to demonstrate something about the modern orthodox milieu and worldview -- which he goes on to discuss quite beautifully. If you know that world you won't find it surprising but I think many people find cutting someone out of a group reunion photo on purpose to be bizarrely 1984-ish. You might be comfortable with that but it's certainly interesting to know that this kind of stuff happens at schools that otherwise purport to be training students to be active in wider society.

If he wants Jews to disappear through intermarriage, then he's doing a fine job. only one-third of kids from mixed marriages ever feel they're jewish. in the last 15 years, the number of jews has dropped in the U.S. from more than 6 million to 5.5 million. thats without a war or any conflict, but as a result of mixed marriages where kids in fact forget about their heritage. mixed marriages would be just fine if children took on the identities of both of their parents, but in a society that is mostly non-jewish, the result will most likely be that the jewish part will be conveniently forgotten.

if he honestly cared that much about religion or his yeshiva he would have at least insisted on his wife converting. instead he didn't and now he's all shocked that the very institutions that are entrusted with keeping jews in existence for the next one thousand years are not happy about him and his kids assimilitating away.

but you want him to "insist" that his korean-american wife, who just might have some of her own traditions, including theological beliefs, to assimilate to her husband's religion??

3:31

Yeah, because she's not one of the "Chosen People," duh.

It isn't necessary to slam the entire Jewish community for its supposed lack of warmth to non-Jews, which is utter baloney -- anyone who's worked in any of the law firms in New York reported on here knows what a red herring that is.

Most of the commenters here got it right, though: He went to an institution of, for and by orthodox Jews and violated one of that religion's most fundamental tenets: Jewish continuity requires that you have Jewish children. This isn't even an issue of whether a questionable conversion is being recognized by those stern rabbis; his wife does not even purport to be Jewish. From the point of view of Judaism, it is approximately the same as if he had shown up in a Catholic priest's hassock or with a Hitler mustache. This is not because Mrs. Feldman is anything but a marvelous person, but all three gestures would be equally a poke in the eye of the people at that reunion and the institution of which they are alumni.

Mrs. Feldman's husband chose her over his commitment to his heritage and to the religious principles he espoused when attending yeshiva. No one from that institution chased after him to persecute him or his family. Judaism does not behead its apostates (and that is what he is). But to expect to be welcomed back to his yeshiva, which is premised on the continuation of the Jewish people, of which Jewish family life is the cornerstone, with open arms, and to be included and celebrated because he is a great Harvard professor ...

This is something only a Harvard professor (and not even Alan Dershowitz, also a former yeshiva bocher, who wrote a book as much as admitting that the phenomenon of intermarriage would lead to the end of the Jewish people) would expect. The chutzpa is all Noah Feldman's.

Jewish guy: the school knew nothing about the family's religious choices. They cut them out based on racial characteristics. Have we reached a point where we just assume orthodox Jews are racist on top of caring about continuity, and say, how dare he even tell the story since we all know this is justifiable Jewish behavior? I think not.

When will people learn that inter-marriage is a good thing. It promotes peace. I'll take peace over tradition.

Hey Jewish Guy - maybe one of the reasons that only one-third of kids from mixed marriages ever "feel they're jewish" is because they are constantly told by their jewish peers that they don't count unless their mothers are jewish. Great way to encourage me to be part of my father's culture. The unitarians my mother introduced me to were a lot more accepting...

jewish guy, his wife is korean-american. you think she's worried about her kids losing that part of their heritage? probably. you think her friends are going around cutting her husband out of their photographs? probably not.

get a clue.

I am surprised that Maimo would be so hostile, if only out of business sense. To have a young arrogant pretty Harvard Law prof as a prominent alum would only attract more...

As for the debate on what intermarriage does/does not do in judaism, its irrelevant. He married a non-Jew, and wants to still maintain ties to the community.

Rabbi Shmuely Boteach has a close to right view, IMO: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1184766034824

Anti-dentities!

Feldman does not argue at all that he should be "welcomed with open arms." What the school did was deny his existence. And that's just weird. (And quite possibly wrong).

Perhaps the honorable thing to do would have been for someone from the school to talk to him about the issue and express the school's disapproval. Instead, he was ignored and surreptitiously eliminated from a photograph. That's more than a little passive aggressive.

Finally, on the notion that showing up with an Asian fiance, wearing a priest's hassock, and wearing a Hitler mustache are all equally egregious pokes in the eye to his faith -- that's ludicrous. There's a difference between personal choice (who you marry; your faith) and evil (Hitler). Shunning evil is to be expected. Shunning someone for a personal choice that you disagree with -- but which is not inherently vile or hostile -- is small-minded and dishonorable.

Another example of how much religion sucks.

talk about intolerance. even if you hate feldman, defending this type of behavior is crazy.

and comparing showing up with her to showing up dressed liked a priest/hilter is an extremely ridiculous comment. not to mention extremely racist too. being asian is like being hilter? wow.

so when does the next jewish boycott of the times start? or did the last one never stop?

to 3.42

in fact korean americans are similarly very concerned about continuity of their culture and do look down on intermarriage.

also you clearly didn't read the article. this is not about his friends, but about an institution that has as its main function to foster the continuation of jewish life and family. i'm sure friends couldn't care less who you get married to, but your religious/cultural school would. to ask them to accept this would be like asking a very catholic school to accept a very atheist person who goes around blasting the church, the school, and apparently writing negative articles about them.

to 3.31

as for everyone else, noone asked him to insist on converting her. he could have converted himself. fine with me, but to then arrive as a christian or muslim to the yeshiva and think that you will be held up as some sort of example to follow is moronic. a religious institution is not doing its job if it's not reinforcing some traditional principles.

to 3.34

you know you're chosen when there are 70 million american christians(obviously followers of a different religion) that share this belief.

and in general, when you can trace the history of your people back 3,000 years to them speaking the same language, having the same religion, and celebrating the same holidays, maybe then we can talk. until then, trust me, following traditions works.

Daughter-of-a-shiksa --it's unfortunate that you did not find warmth in the Jewish community. Part of that, again unfortunately, may stem from the law that one is only Jewish if the mother is Jewish. Of course you are aware of this...some people feel it necessary to point it out regardless of circumstance. My experience is that this is done not out of spite or redicule, but rather from lack of anything else to say.

I have many, many dear friends whose mother is not Jewish, yet have a Jewish father. Some hold themselves out as Jewish, some do not.

Personally, I find Jewish heritage, philosophy, and spirituality to be incredibly uplifting and self-rewarding. It is my personal opinion that one identifies with a religion when said religion is challenged and still found, by that particular individual, to be honest and true (to that individual's core).

Half-jews unite!

AGWJG!!

3:41: son of a shiksa here! My blood is half-Jewish, whether or not I am a "Jew". My kids, although they are being raised at least as nominal Presbyterians (my wife's faith), will also know the rest of their heritage.

anti-feldsuk-ites!

Noah Feldman went to a YESHIVA - what does he expect? Why would they want to condone intermarriage, so strongly condemned among Orthodox and many Conservative Jews? He chose a woman over thousands of years of history and culture - not exactly a model of what the school wants to show to the world. The school strives first and foremost to create good Jews and Noah did not behave as a good, Orthodox Jew. He can have all the success in the world, but according to his responsibilities as a Jew (to marry a Jewish woman - or one who converts via the Orthodox - and raise Jewish children) are unmet. In that world, he has failed.

The article provided by 4:18 makes several good points. I am a non-Jewish woman dating a Jewish man and we will probably get married some day. Although he has consistently dated non-Jewish women and I have consistently not made a point of dating extremely devout Christian men, we both like our beliefs and our traditions and neither of us plans to convert (and, yes, it would be an option for a Jewish person to convert to Christianity, as "backwards" as that might sound). I would be perfectly happy for my children to be raised with Jewish traditions and to consider themselves to be Jewish and would encourage them to make that choice if it is what they want. However, I realize that many Jews, including my boyfriend's family, see this as a let-down and would consider any Jewish traditions recognized in my home to be purely ceremonial (i.e., meaningless), because I don't plan to convert.

My situation is different from Feldsuk's, because my boyfriend does not think that he can have it both ways in terms of marrying a shiksa and being the perfect Jewish son. But, perhaps so many children of mixed marriages would not default to having no religion or following Christian traditions if there wasn't such a strong feeling that Jewish men should "insist" that their non-Jewish wives convert or that bringing a Korean-American woman to a party is akin to showing up with a Hitler moustache!

If my wife isn't Jewish because her mom isn't Jewish, then why do I have to go to Passover every year?

I am encouraged that religions preach inbreeding. I know a geneticist that said there were 40+ genetic diseases that effect Jewish people. (tay-sachs disease anyone??)

Inbreeding ==bad
Extremely intelligent, bi-racial children that promote an inclusive society==good

the article makes the school's decision to exclude him prescient. He violates a principle of the school's philosophy, is surprised he's not welcomed back, and then writes an article about it for the Times making the school and all adherents of Orthodox Judaism into fundamentalists, comparing them to murderers like Amir and Goldstein. You don't have to agree with Orthodox Judaism to think that anyone who sees himself as sooo special that no matter what he does everyone should love him, is an arrogant prick.

And, he neglects to mention that he represented the city of Tenafly on appeal in trying to deny Orthodox residents the ability to build an eruv (a basically imaginary boundary that in Jewish law premits carrying and other things, like pushing baby carriages on the sabbath). He lost. That would seem to be a significatn data point in how the Orthodox Jewish community views him, and his failure to mention it is another example of his character.

are you seriously equating marrying someone of a different faith with "walking around blasting" their religion? not even close to the same thing.

i dont think being included in an alumni photo is asking for people "to follow his example". no matter who he married he is STILL an alum of the school.

it is beautiful that you have such strong ties to your cultural heritage, but it doesn't excuse an act of blatant ignorance such as this.

WGWAG

Suk? LOL

I find this kind of religious/racial intolerance to be reprehensible in the extreme.

If the zealots of the world (Christian Right, Muslim , Jewish-Extremists, or whatever) suddenly ceased to exist, what a different, far less violent and hate filled world we would live in.

I am an atheist in an interracial marriage to a devout Catholic and I have agreed to raise my children in the Catholic faith. I would expect tolerance at a minimum from from the Catholic Church and my wife's former parochial school.

I would be offended if they omitted her from a class reunion photo because of my presence. doing so would show a lack of tolerance for her choices and for my faith (or lack thereof). This boils down to a tolerance issue, not a doctrinal discussion for me.

That being said, they would be well within their rights to be omit my wife from their publications for whatever reason they choose. However, it would go a long way to justify my deep distrust of all organized religion.

the article makes the school's decision to exclude him prescient. He violates a principle of the school's philosophy, is surprised he's not welcomed back, and then writes an article about it for the Times making the school and all adherents of Orthodox Judaism into fundamentalists, comparing them to murderers like Amir and Goldstein. You don't have to agree with Orthodox Judaism to think that anyone who sees himself as sooo special that no matter what he does everyone should love him, is an arrogant prick.

And, he neglects to mention that he represented the city of Tenafly on appeal in trying to deny Orthodox residents the ability to build an eruv (a basically imaginary boundary that in Jewish law premits carrying and other things, like pushing baby carriages on the sabbath). He lost. That would seem to be a significatn data point in how the Orthodox Jewish community views him, and his failure to mention it is another example of his character.

WGWAG

Suk-feld?

WGWAG

Suk-feld?

Jewish Guy, you are the one who used the term "insist" with respect to his wife's conversion. In fact, you basically said that if his religion meant anything to him at all, he would have insisted that she convert. Of course, if I were to say that about a Southern Baptist man wanting his Jewish or Buddhist wife to convert to his religion, everyone would snicker at what a close-minded buffoon I am (not to mention the Southern Baptist suitor).

I have no doubt that following traditions has worked well for you, but don't complain that the majority is working to piss all over your traditions and then say that other Jews have lost the right to maintain their religious and cultural traditions because you don't approve of their choices. That does more to drive people away from Judaism than society or the identity of the majority.

the article makes the school's decision to exclude him prescient. He violates a principle of the school's philosophy, is surprised he's not welcomed back, and then writes an article about it for the Times making the school and all adherents of Orthodox Judaism into fundamentalists, comparing them to murderers like Amir and Goldstein. You don't have to agree with Orthodox Judaism to think that anyone who sees himself as sooo special that no matter what he does everyone should love him, is an arrogant prick.

And, he neglects to mention that he represented the city of Tenafly on appeal in trying to deny Orthodox residents the ability to build an eruv (a basically imaginary boundary that in Jewish law premits carrying and other things, like pushing baby carriages on the sabbath). He lost. That would seem to be a significatn data point in how the Orthodox Jewish community views him, and his failure to mention it is another example of his character.

What an idiot!? I went to an orthodox yeshiva (more hardcore than Maimonides) and if I marry a non-jew...they will be the last to know. I mean, cmon, I don't blame them. The Jewish religion will be wiped out if everyone intermarries, and it's not like Judaism is exactly an easily religion to get converts. It's a hard religion with lots of rules. The fact is, this guy must be drinking some amnesia juice because since when is it news that religious Jews don't like to see other seemingly religious Jews marry out of their faith.

I would have thought such a branianc would know that it's unnecessary to say "[a] number of years ago." "Years ago" would have not been redundant and thus correct.

What an idiot!? I went to an orthodox yeshiva (more hardcore than Maimonides) and if I marry a non-jew...they will be the last to know. I mean, cmon, I don't blame them. The Jewish religion will be wiped out if everyone intermarries, and it's not like Judaism is exactly an easily religion to get converts. It's a hard religion with lots of rules. The fact is, this guy must be drinking some amnesia juice because since when is it news that religious Jews don't like to see other seemingly religious Jews marry out of their faith.

Also, my mother converted to orthodox Judaism before I was born...so I know what's it like to be a half-breed...and it sucks.

I love the image of Feldman somehow getting himself inside a little tufted footstool, i.e. a "hassock," and having himself wheeled into his reunion!!

I'm not sure what it would mean if he showed up in a "cassock," like Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican priests wear, but I'm pretty sure it would not be as funny as if were inside a hassock.

Sorry for the double post, the first one ended in a clearly misleading "error" message.

branianc = brainiac

To Ron Coleman and 4:21: a priest wears a cassock; a hassock is a piece of furniture.

And Ron, thanks for telling us anonymous minions who "got it right," as well as for gracing us with that oh-so-reasonable analogy between asian wives and Hitler....

And one last thing, you don't go to Muslim's house and demand alcohol and you certainly don't go to an orthodox school reunion and demand intermarriage acceptance. I mean, HE went to THEIR turf...not the other way around.

As a Catholic, I'm just happy that everybody isn't ragging on my religion for a change.

He didn't demand anything. Just stood in a group photo and then told us what happened next. He didn't even criticize!!!

The issue here is not whether or not you or I think intermarriage is a good or a bad thing in general, or as it relates to Jews in specific.

The issue here is not racism.

The issue here is not organized religion.

The issue is simply, as some of the commenters point out, that his behavior in this regard (and others) is radically offensive to the philosophy, really the Raison d'être, of the school from which he wants honor. His whole way of life is a rejection of what his alma mater stands for.

What is remarkable is how this stings, despite the fact that Feldman, more than ever, has "everything" from the point of view of the world-view he has embraced. Yes, let him go love his family, and leave his alma amter and alone -- in the pages of the Times and in, hopefully, in the courtroom. He won't be missed.

Daughter-of-a-shiksa: Orthodox Jew here - Anyone who said that you don't count is wrong. Maimonides (the person not Mr. Feldman's alma mater) was clear that Gentiles do matter and can go to heaven.

But they are right that you are not Jewish (unless you convert). That's (Orthodox) Jewish law. Many Christians believe that I can't achieve salvation because I have not accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior -- that's their belief. Religons have rules and beliefs (kinda of what makes them religions in the first place).

5:15 - Actually, someone above referred to Catholics (i.e., "Christian Right") as zealots and that the world would be better were they dead. Actually, that's hating, not ragging, so maybe you're right.

You're welcome, anonymous. Thanks for the correction. I hate those priests who come around wearing ostentatious furniture. Don't get me started on Ottomans. On the other hand, why you revel in the cowardice of anonymity is beyond me. When you have the nerve to sign your name to something you have to say, your highly advanced snark will be appreciated even more.

The issue here is not whether or not you or I think intermarriage is a good or a bad thing in general, or as it relates to Jews in specific.

The issue here is not racism.

The issue here is not organized religion.

The issue is simply, as some of the commenters point out, that his behavior in this regard (and others) is radically offensive to the philosophy, really the Raison d'être, of the school from which he wants honor. His whole way of life is a rejection of what his alma mater stands for.

What is remarkable is how this stings, despite the fact that Feldman, more than ever, has "everything" from the point of view of the world-view he has embraced. Yes, let him go love his family, and leave his alma amter and the orthodox community he abandoned alone -- in the pages of the Times and in, hopefully, in the courtroom. He won't be missed.

Can I just point out that there's a difference between "Jews" and "Orthodox Jews"? Attributing the views of an Orthodox Yeshiva to the Jewish people generally would be like attributing Papal proclamations to Lutherans.

Oh, and Noah Feldman is brilliant.

That is all.

Baruch Spinoza - absolutely right!

Being Jewish is more than "feeling" Jewish. You are required to conform to some minimum requirements. Every religion defines its in-group. Daughter of a shiksah, you are not a member of the Jewish religion unless either you or your mother converts. I don't see how that is different from other religions. I could not walk into a Catholic Church and decide to take communion! Even if my father AND mother were Catholic, taht is not enough - I would have to be confirmed in the Catholic religion. Judaism, if you think about it is more lenient - ALL that is required is that your mother be a Jew and that you do not actively accept another religion. However, if you are raised completely without religion and your birth mother is Jewish, you can walk into a synagogue tomorrow and be considered a Jew. You may not know anything about the religion, but that is the way it is. Nothing more is required of you to be considered a Jew.

5:25 - Are Catholics a part of the "Christian Right?" I was under the impression that "Christian Right" referred to Christian Fundamentalist faiths rather than the Catholic Church.

Ron, if you're proud of what the school did, why not be happy he drew attention to it in the pages of the Times? Isn't it good that more people know about something you support so much? I doubt it really "stung" for Feldman anyway. He was just telling an interesting true story as an apt lead into his fascinating discussion of his experiences of modern orthodoxy.

Ron Coleman -

You forgot to mention that the issue is not whether or not Korean BBQ is kosher.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm BBQ

I do think that Feldman's article is based on a principle of "I should be able to have it both ways" to a certain extent. However, in response to 5:13's point, there's a difference between demanding intermarriage acceptance and expecting basic tolerance of one's beliefs. I think it's just hard for some people (both Jews and non-Jews) to understand the exclusivity of some segments of the Jewish community. At times, it almost seems like there is a license to discriminate against anyone who is not Jewish, in a way that wouldn't be considered acceptable if the group doing the excluding were Caucasians, Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, etc. What if a Catholic school cut pictures of Muslim spouses out of its alumni publication, based on an assumption that most Muslims aren't Catholic and that seeing the picture might offend readers of the newsletter?

Perhaps it's not my place to try to understand this because I'm not Jewish, but I think this is why some people find this topic interesting and worthy of discussion.

Isn't there an irony in saying that inter-marriage will destroy the Jewish tradition but then purposefully diminishing the population by shunning inter-married Jews.

I mean, come on.

Also, what exactly does it say about the strenth/value/appeal/utility of Jewish traditions if they're threatened by inter-marriage? That's just a totally bizarre argument.

Mr. Coleman - is that a joke, or did Bragar Wexler & Eagel, PC actually choose the slogan "Big Firm Success With a Small Package"?

Could everyone on here who preaches "tolerance" toward all belief systems stop being so damn intolerant and realize that continuing the jewish people according to our laws is (obviously) part of our belief system?

They didn't kick him out. They didn't insult him. They didn't embarass him. They just chose not to give the world a confusing public message that they endorse his choice when they don't. Big. Freaking. Deal.

5:31 - The term "Christian Right" generally is thought to encompass Catholics. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_right

What would be the "joke," 5:41? Please explain it to me in light of your own sophisticated marketing background and your own professional "success," as well as your understanding of those of the members of this firm.

5:32, it was not exactly a balanced presentation.

"What if a Catholic school cut pictures of Muslim spouses out of its alumni publication, based on an assumption that most Muslims aren't Catholic and that seeing the picture might offend readers of the newsletter?"
---------------------------------------------

Well, it's different. First of all, they cut both him AND his wife out of the pictures. Second, I don't really see a problem with it. These are RELIGIOUS people.

I don't go around my old Yeshiva flaunting my love for shrimp and lobster...even though I do love it...mmmmmm....lobster.....

mmm - 1) The intermarried Jews should not be shunned.

2) If you accept the fact that only a Jewish mother makes you Jewish (barring conversion) then intermarriage will reduce the Jewish population. The male intermarried Jew may keep the numbers high for now but his line will not be Jewish. The female intermarried Jew may have Jewish children but those are risk of not keeping the traditions (of course that is their individual choice and I would not restrict their individual freedom in any way, but that fact does have an impact on the Jewish population).

Is the point of Feldman's article to inspire change? Because the Orthodox Jews that read his article probably are saying to themselves, "Yeah, so?" They're called Orthodox jews because they don't change customs and beliefs based on what's going on in society.

5:36--you write, " it almost seems like there is a license to discriminate against anyone who is not Jewish." No, the only discrimination by the Orthodox Jews in this case was within their own community--which they have every right to do according to their own rules. Religion isn't a public accomodation, so your inclusion of Caucasians in your list of counter-examples is totally inapt. And I do think that people would (or at least should) understand why Catholics would refuse to give communion to non-CAtholics. So, why would someone who left Orthodox Judaism be surprised when Orthodox Jews don't accept him anymore? Feldman clearly has some serious psychological issues from his childhood.

Interesting, 5:44, because as many Catholics who grew up in Bible Beltish areas know, many members of the "Christian right" do not consider Catholics to be Christians.

5:42, I can understand why Feldman's article would be annoying to Orthodox Jews. But it's sort of ridiculous to say that Orthodox Jews have a right to be offended by Feldman (a) marrying a non-Jew and (b) expecting his fellow Yeshiva classmates to be excited about it, but that no one else has a right to an opinion on the subject, including Feldman. If it's no big deal, then stick with your religious convictions, ignore the article, and don't bother to argue with the "dummies" who don't agree with you.

"It isn't necessary to slam the entire Jewish community for its supposed lack of warmth to non-Jews, which is utter baloney -- anyone who's worked in any of the law firms in New York reported on here knows what a red herring that is."

No, it isn't necessary to slam anyone, I agree. But you really think that "anyone who's worked in any of the law firms in New York reported on here knows what a red herring that is"? That's funny, because when people I work for don't work on Saturday but then insist I be available to do their work on Sunday, I gotta say I'm not feelin' that.

Big Firm Success With a Small Package

"What if a Catholic school cut pictures of Muslim spouses out of its alumni publication, based on an assumption that most Muslims aren't Catholic and that seeing the picture might offend readers of the newsletter?"

That would be a good assumption to make. I don't believe any Muslims are Catholic.

Christian Right Definition:

I didn't call anyone a "dummy."

I didn't say I was offended (or that anyone had a right to be offended) by Feldman's actions, his article, or any comments here.

I made no comments regarding anyone's right to an opinion. I did mention that those who criticize beliefs similar to mine on the basis of tolerance are contradicting themselves. That's hardly denying someone a right to his or her opinion.

I'm pointing out that my community is being portrayed in a more negative light than the facts (and reason) warrant. I wanted to clarify that, so I didn't ignore the article.

Your response to my comment is inapposite.

5:44 - Those Bible Belters probably don't think they're right-wing either. Instead, the likely think they're right and everyone else is wrong, so there are no "wings."

5:55, you are completely right that Orthodox Jews have a right to set the rules of their own community. I'm not necessarily talking about Con Law discrimination and I'm not referring just to the situation described here. My only point was that, although I don't expect to get invited to JCC mixers and to post a profile on J-Date, many people (and I will accept that you are not one of them) do complain when Christian religions OR any ethnic group does things that seem exclusive. For example, did you read the posts on that Greenberg Traurig minority recruiting event a few weeks ago? So, all I really meant by my post is why do people find it any more surprising in this super-PC world that we live in today that some people are put out by this than the fact that some people are put out by just about anything that happens?

Also, sorry, but wanting to be accepted by your peers, whether they agree with your personal choices or not, is not necessarily a sign that you have "serious psychological issues." The fact that some of the anti-Feldman posters seem to think that no one has a right to their own opinion only reinforces the stereotype that many people have of Jewish people feeling that they are superior to everyone else (see 3:22). I understand that "go with the flow" and "do whatever" are not consistent with Orthodox Judaism, but it can't be a surprise that some people don't understand those views.

Idiots, this is NOT WGWAG

WGWAG is white girls with asian guys, and not the other way around. There is nothing remotely interesting about white males and asian females. White men have been humping asian broads for a while now.

5:36/6:13 -
"I understand that "go with the flow" and "do whatever" are not consistent with Orthodox Judaism, but it can't be a surprise that some people don't understand those views."

The surprise is that Feldman may not understand this view. (I actually think he does understand this but he had to realize that the article would make it look like he does not.)

"There is nothing remotely interesting about white males and asian females."
Clearly you've never dated an Asian girl.

Catholic Girls With Jewish Guys!

CGWJG!

"Small Package" is thought by some to refer to the scrotal sac.

"Big Firm Success in a Small Package" sounds to some like a sophomoric, thinly-veiled way of saying that someone has above average sexual prowess and that potential lovers should overlook the "small package."

Also, if one notes the double meaning of "Firm," the idea that someone has "Big Firm Success" (i.e. a favorable one's penis) "in a small package" could mean that someone is bragging about his genitalia and also wears a speedo.

The slogan is basically a sophomoric triple-entendre.

Just sayin.

Don't forget -- the website lists "firm members."

Amazing how you people have missed a huge analogy:

THIS IS JUST LIKE A GUY ATTENDING A HARD CORE CHRISTIAN PRIVATE SCHOOL, GRADUATING, AND THEN GETTING A BOYFRIEND.

Do you seriously think that said graduate would be included in the religious school's newsletters with his arm around his Mister? People are so fucking sensitive. If you have the misfortune of spending your youth being indoctrinated into a particular religion via a hard core religious education, don't be surprised if you show up at the reunion with your new sheep lover and expect them to embrace you.

RELIGION SUCKS.

6:49 - where to start...

comparing interracial and/or interfaith marriage to homosexuality and bestiality...

yeah, hard to believe anyone missed that analogy

Just to respond to a question someone asked... I do not think that Catholics should be included in what most of us understand to be the "Christian Right," notwithstanding whatever someone might have written in Wikipedia. There are conservative Catholics who may well fit in with that group, but not the majority. In fact, I'd posit that for the vast majority of Catholics (in the US especially), many of the Christian Right's methods/goals are contrary to their view of Catholicism.

It's true--Catholics are not considered to be Christian by many on the so-called religious right. Fucking crazy, but true. But i there really anything that can explain why those Protestants do what they do?

but how can we blame this on the Bush Administration?

Interesting discussion. Koreans don't have as much to worry about since there are so many more Koreans than Jews. Perhaps Jews should start evangelizing (or at least make it easier to convert) in order to increase their numbers. I'd be down to convert if someone invited me. Or is being part of a select few the whole point? Perhaps Jews should just start having more babies.

I suppose I'll never understand what the big deal is.

The school has a right to cut interracial couples out of its pictures, but Feldman has a right to criticize them for it. Religion is not, and should not be, protected from criticism.

That said, while I can sympathize with the offense everyone is taking, I certainly cannot empathize. I do not think I have ever been offended by anything in my entire life.

Furthermore, accommodating others and accepting their idiosyncrasies, no matter how silly they may seem to me, is not an obligation, but simply good manners. If I invited a Muslim to my yacht club and he wanted a non-alcoholic drink, I would oblige. If my Jewish friend wanted something other than shrimp cocktail, I would ask the Commodore to speak with the chef. If my Catholic guest needed an indulgence, I would see if my minister knew any priests.

Naturally, if I visited a Mosque or a Southern Baptist revival meeting, I would never order my usual Manhattan, because doing so would be gauche. But if an acquaintance did so and was rudely rebuffed, I would not be shocked to hear him snicker about primitive religious practices, like prohibition, back at the Club that night.

Again, I would never do so, because that would be bad manners.

7:28 - We don't proselytize or invite. We discourage those who want to convert. But for those who are adamant and sincere they can become Jews after intense study.

This may sound elitist, but as I alluded to above Gentiles can go to the Jewish notion of heaven without converting if they observe specific laws. (Ironically, these are named the Seven Laws of Noah -- for the Biblical Noah, not Feldman. For more detail see http://www.aish.com/wallcam/7_Noachide_Laws.asp.)

6:53, you're a sensitive idiot. Interracial and/or interfaith marriage to some sects of certain religions is indeed just as bad as (or worse than) homosexuality or bestiality. Because you're a punk, maybe you didn't realize that. Go find someone to give you a hug.

More proof that all religion is anachronistic, unfounded, and stupid. (Note there's no fallacious rebuttual available to the effect that I'm being hypocritically intolerant of some entity based on its lack of tolerance. Rather, I'm proudly (and wisely) intolerant of religious because it's totally baseless, harmful, and wrong.) Please wake me up in a couple hundred hears when it's finally over. Thanks.

It is so strange that some religions insist on religious tolerance from others, yet insist on religious intolerance from themselves.

wow, where to begin.

1. some, but not all, catholics should be included in the christian right. catholicism traditionally has been much more liberal than protestant denominations - issues like poverty, peace, equal rights were crucial. more recently, abortion and gays have become more salient for catholics, and it's fair to say the "average catholic" in america has moved rightward politically. but they're much more split than protestants.

2. i went to an all-male, catholic preparatory school. muslims and jews were among the students - as were atheists and agnostics, i can assure you. we all took the same religious classes - but all of those people are mentioned in the alumni newsletters, as are those who have since come out of the closet.

3. being excluded from an alumni reunion photograph isn't exactly the same as being denied communion. communion is a sacrament, a religious ritual. an alumni reunion, even at religious schools like mine and mr. feldman's, is a social gathering, not a religious ceremony, and all that should be required for participation in them is that one in fact graduated from the school. being excluded from the photograph, to me, just seems mean.

4. beyond that argument, i think what so many of us non-jews find fascinating about judaism is the definition itself. to be a catholic, or a christian of other denomination (or, i believe, a muslim, though i'm not positive on that), all you have to do is believe the basic principles of the faith. it doesn't matter what your mom or anyone but you believes, and it doesn't matter what blood you have. if your parents are catholic, but you're not religious, you're not automatically considered catholic just because your parents were. i'm not saying it's wrong for jews to define judaism the way they do, i just think it's strange. a religion is at its nature a set of beliefs about the divine being; that, to me, seems like a fundamentally personal choice, and one shouldn't automatically be either "in" or "out" based on anyone but him- or herself. actually, i think the concept of being automatically "out" is more understandable - if marrying a jew is a tenet of the faith somehow, not doing so could be considered heresy and thus grounds for rejection. but, as i understand it, someone with two jewish parents who personally holds no religious beliefs at all is still considered jewish, just because of his or her parents. that's just very odd, and fascinating, to me because it's so different from both the tradition in which i was raised and the way i would define the term "religion."

5. i do also think it's fair to acknowledge that jews - and here, actually, i'm specifically NOT limiting my judgment to orthodox jews, but i'll include reform, conservative, whatever - jews as a group are much more concerned with dating and marrying within their religion than catholics or protestants are. i don't have enough experience with muslims - just a few friends, in a tiny cross-section that i'm positive isn't representative of the broader population - to make a judgment about that faith in this regard. but i do think it's fair to ask - if intermarriage is presumed to absolutely guarantee the extinction of the faith, doesn't that say something negative about the faith in terms of both inherent relevance and appeal?

6. on a related note, serious question, i don't know the answer: other than these "voluntary" conversions by, e.g., former shiksas who marry jewish men, how many converts to judaism are there?

"It is so strange that some religions insist on religious tolerance from others, yet insist on religious intolerance from themselves"

Well, if my people are superior to you, then why should I tolerate you? You're inferior. You refusing to tolerate me, on the other hand, is just stupid because you're inferior and have no right to decline to tolerate me.

there a few different strands to the arguments here, which I will humbly try to disentangle.

Some people might find it offensive or racist that Orthodox Jews, based on traditional Jewish law, consider exogamy a terrible sin. Okay. Those people are entitled to their opinion, just as the Orthodox are entitled to theirs. It's fine to criticize religion, to say that some religious ideas are stupid or worse. But that's not what Feldman did in his article. What he did was say that the Orthodox Jews were mean to him for holding on to their own ideas. He wasn't arguing that the ban on exogamy was racist. He wasn't even arguing that it was unecessary for Jewish survival or antiquated in modern America. Lots of non-Orthodox Jews believe that and have voted with their feet, or ring-fingers as the case may be. Again, those people are entitled to their opinions. What Feldman did was to complain that the Orthodox Jewish community was not willing to sacrifice it's own standards to accept him. He wasn't even complaining that they were hypocrits--that they have standards and don't obey them. No, he was complaining that they have standards and do obey them.

The analogy to coming to a party wearing a Hitler mask was over the top, but one more appropriate might be, comin to a yeshiva alumni party and being surprised and offended that they're not serving your favorite food, bacon double-cheeseburgers.

"Well, if my people are superior to you, then why should I tolerate you? You're inferior. You refusing to tolerate me, on the other hand, is just stupid because you're inferior and have no right to decline to tolerate me."

Indeed, but many who are first will be last, and the last first.

baruch spinoza - is that true? judaism specifically DISCOURAGES would-be converts?!?!?

um, i'm neither a religious leader nor a salesman, but that seems - well, pretty foolish, from a long-term survival perspective.

i would also suggest that it's a little silly to justify what is, for better or for worse, a discriminatory practice (disallowing interfaith/interracial marriage, and shunning those who do) on the basis that it's necessary for the survival of the faith, and then actively minimizing the only real way of increasing the jewish population.

"Indeed, but many who are first will be last, and the last first."

Jesus, I don't get you. So if I do well in life I'm damned, but if I'm a failure with nothing, I get priority treatment by St. Peter? What's the freaking point of living?

"Jesus, I don't get you. So if I do well in life I'm damned, but if I'm a failure with nothing, I get priority treatment by St. Peter? What's the freaking point of living?"

My child, you misunderstand me. The lesson is for you to try to treat all equally, so that there are no firsts or lasts to you.

8:23 - Yup on all counts.

I dunno about other "pro-orthodox" commenters, but I didn't demand tolerance from anybody.

My mother (who converted to orthodox judaism) had 3 rabbi's reject her outright for conversion and then she had to study for a VERY long time before her conversion was complete. She said that the rabbi who finally converted her did so because she said, "Fine, don't convert me - but I'll still be Jewish - in my heart." How gay is that!? Just kidding, I'm very thankful for her.

823 - Yes we discourage converts. We are looking for those who are serious and insistent in the face of the initial rebuff. It may sound crazy but that is because most other religions proseltyze.

We don't disallow intermarriage, we discourage it. The macro solution to keeping up the numbers is marry Jewish and procreate. On the individual level, we can't force people to marry Jewish.

As for your long-term survival point: we've been around awhile, although historians are often amazed at how that is.

Bravo for Noah Feldman. To resist the indoctrination that he received about marrying inside the faith, and to instead choose love without regards to religion, is wonderful.

As for his Yeshiva, shame on them. Shame on them for cowardly airbrushing Noah and Jeannie from the photo, without having the (minimal) decency to confront them face to face. Shame on them for tainting a happy reunion with discrimination. Shame on them.

The fact that the Yeshiva frowns on interfaith marriage is beside the point. This event was for their graduates, and by opening it up to the graduates' families, the Yeshiva had a duty to accept those familes as they are. That's the duty of a gracious host. It appears that this particular host was long on God and short on grace.

5:28 has it correct:

"Can I just point out that there's a difference between "Jews" and "Orthodox Jews"? Attributing the views of an Orthodox Yeshiva to the Jewish people generally would be like attributing Papal proclamations to Lutherans."

Judaism has diverse sub-groups, as does Protestantism and most other religions. I did thought Feldman's article was interesting but certainly not whining; it is surprising so many people had a freak out over it. Relax!

I don't want to start more bickering, but I am sincerely wondering what the reception would be if Feldman had married (and shown up at his alumni party with) someone who was Jewish by birth, but completely non-observant (i.e., the person who is looking for double bacon cheeseburgers at the party, etc.)? As someone else said above, I think it is the "birth parents" distinction that confuses some of us non-Jews. I understand that the rules originate from Jewish law, not an intent to pick on non-Jews, but I know lots of Jewish people who seem to be more "culturally Jewish" and not observant in the least. I also know women who have converted to Judaism to satisfy their husband and his family, even though the family does not observe most Jewish traditions (and I'm not talking about Charlotte on Sex and the City).

For Orthodox Jews, is the concern mostly focused on dilution of the gene pool or also whether the spouse is observant of Jewish traditions? I can totally understand why it would be problematic for an Orthodox Jew to be married to someone who does not keep kosher, observe the Sabbath, etc., but have a harder time understanding the distinction when it seems to be more of a "let's keep Grandma off my back" sort of thing -- and I feel the same way about Christians who are opposed to interfaith marriages but don't seem to follow Christian principles.

Feldman has a record of being anti orthodox jew (he recently took on an anti ortho cause).

This whole article was just an excuse to bash and embarrass orthodox jews, thinly veiled as some kind of struggle or paradox.

He also pretends that he still considers himself one of the tribe, which gives him a free pass to bash orthodox jews all he wants.

He could have simply written "i dont like orthodox jews" and it would have avoided all the discussion and confusion.

7:02, 8:14: As a general matter, Catholics who attend church once a week or more are Republicans; Catholics who attend church only for Christmas and Easter (or less often) are Democrats; and Catholics who attend church fewer than once a week but more than twice a year may vote either Republican or Democrat. Interestingly, the most committed Orthodox Jews (those who wear the yarmulke and actually follow and care about the rules) are almost as likely to be conservative Republicans as are devout Christians.

I tend to think that there are two reasons why Catholics are often not considered part of the Christian right: (1) historically, the founders of the Christian Coalition/Moral Majority were from prostestant denominations (today, Catholics are as well represented as any denomination among conservative pro-family organizations). (2) Prominent conservative Catholics involved in politics tend to be laymen, not priests. Compare Catholics like Alan Keyes, Sam Brownback, the four Catholics on the U.S. Supreme Court (note: I purposefully said four), with protestants like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham.

@ Fed Soc 10:24

"(note: I purposefully said four)"

What on earth are you on about?

"4. beyond that argument, i think what so many of us non-jews find fascinating about judaism is the definition itself. to be a catholic, or a christian of other denomination (or, i believe, a muslim, though i'm not positive on that), all you have to do is believe the basic principles of the faith. it doesn't matter what your mom or anyone but you believes, and it doesn't matter what blood you have. if your parents are catholic, but you're not religious, you're not automatically considered catholic just because your parents were. i'm not saying it's wrong for jews to define judaism the way they do, i just think it's strange. a religion is at its nature a set of beliefs about the divine being; that, to me, seems like a fundamentally personal choice, and one shouldn't automatically be either "in" or "out" based on anyone but him- or herself. actually, i think the concept of being automatically "out" is more understandable - if marrying a jew is a tenet of the faith somehow, not doing so could be considered heresy and thus grounds for rejection. but, as i understand it, someone with two jewish parents who personally holds no religious beliefs at all is still considered jewish, just because of his or her parents. that's just very odd, and fascinating, to me because it's so different from both the tradition in which i was raised and the way i would define the term "religion." "

The short answer to this fascination is that Judaism is not "merely" a religion. Jews are a Nation and also a (very) extended family. So you are part of the Nation/Family if you are born into it. Being born into it is defined as being born to a Jewish mother. It would indeed be odd for this to be the definition of a Jew, if Judaism were "just" a religion. But it's not.

Most liberals consider that there are five Catholics on the U.S. Supreme Court because they count Kennedy as a Catholic (which means five with Justices Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts). I disagree with this assessment (mainly because I do not believe that a Catholic can endorse pro-abortion judicial activism), but I just wanted to specify that I said four on purpose so that no one would claim that I don't know how many Catholics there are.

@ Fed Soc

Figured as much, it's just funnier for me if you have to say the whole bit instead of just using shorthand.

Why hasn't anyone looked into the fact that his father was on the board of Maimonides School when they cut him out of the picture?

9:46--Spot on.

Disapproving of interfaith marriages, either out of religious conviction or perceived necessity for the survival of your tribe, is one thing. Airbrushing people out of reunion photos is quite another. It's simply rude, it's not compelled or encouraged by any Jewish teachings I've ever heard of, and it's unlikely to serve any purpose except to make you look obnoxious.

If you're going to turn your back on a member of the community because they marry someone you think they shouldn't, at least have the decency to confront him about it. Better to tell him he's not welcome at reunions, I think, than to pretend to welcome him and then remove all traces of his existence from photographs. That's just strange.

There's a difference between something being interesting and something being important. Feldman's essay was interesting, but not important. It's an article about a little two-bit school in Massachussetts. Even if that school were represenative of all or even most Jews -- which it isn't -- its would still be unimportant. It's a two-bit religion/ethnic group, one of many in the United States.

I'm afraid you're all taking this way too seriously. The US is big and diverse enough that everyone can find his own niche, and what more do you need? If a bunch of Jewish dudes in MA want to act like a--holes, who cares? Go hang out with somebody else, as I'm sure Feldman is doing quite comfortably.

No one in this country can seize the machinery of the state and impose his religion on anyone else. No one can prohibit the free exercise of someone's religion. At least officially no can -- and probably generally no one does -- discriminate against you in employment based on your religion. I've never seen an example of it, and I've lived here in the Kingdom of the Jews for 13 of the past 15 years.

This is a tempest in a teapot.

There's a difference between something being interesting and something being important. Feldman's essay was interesting, but not important. It's an article about a little two-bit school in Massachussetts. Even if that school were represenative of all or even most Jews -- which it isn't -- its would still be unimportant. It's a two-bit religion/ethnic group, one of many in the United States.

I'm afraid you're all taking this way too seriously. The US is big and diverse enough that everyone can find his own niche, and what more do you need? If a bunch of Jewish dudes in MA want to act like a--holes, who cares? Go hang out with somebody else, as I'm sure Feldman is doing quite comfortably.

No one in this country can seize the machinery of the state and impose his religion on anyone else. No one can prohibit the free exercise of someone's religion. At least officially no can -- and probably generally no one does -- discriminate against you in employment based on your religion. I've never seen an example of it, and I've lived here in the Kingdom of the Jews for 13 of the past 15 years.

This is a tempest in a teapot.

To serious question at 9:56 PM:

It has nothing to do with "dilution of the gene pool" or anything racist like that. It has to do with the fact that marrying a non-Jew is considered a very serious moral sin.

As Jews, we believe that God commanded us to marry only other Jews. See Deuteronomy 7:3 ("Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son"). It's that simple.

Jews have a lot of laws that non-Jews may find funny or strange -- we don't eat pork, we don't light fires on Shabbat, we wrap ourselves with leather while saying morning prayers etc. Just like other religions have their odd laws -- such as Muslims who don't eat during daylight hours for a month, or Christians who think that a little wafer and wine turns into the body and blood of a dead Jew.

But these are our beliefs, and Feldman -- having grown up with them -- damn well knew them. The reaction would have been the same if he had come to his reunion with a bacon sandwich, or a Muslim had come to a reunion at a religious Islamic school wearing a t-shirt with a cartoon of Muhammed. He's an ass for whining about them.

As to your second question -- there would still have been a reaction if he had brought a secular Jewish spouse with him. But it wouldn't have been as severe, because the infractions (i.e. a secular lifestyle) would have been as severe.

Oh, and to all the intolerant assholes on this forum: Maimonides is a private religious school. It has no "duty" to tolerate the sins of its graduates or to play nice with people who mock its traditions. And it has every right under the First Amendment to discriminate on the basis of its religious principles. That's what freedom's about folks.

Two words: SOY VEY!

James Madison @ 12:44:
"I've never seen an example of it, and I've lived here in the Kingdom of the Jews for 13 of the past 15 years."

If you want to be an an a-hole who calls NY (I'm assuming you mean NY) the "Kingdom of the Jews," move back to where you came from. We don't need you here. If you stay, you'll only get in the way of our plans for world domination.

half-jews to ONE NINETY!

From Moses to Moses there were none like Moses.