To tie this in to the actual subject of this post:

Have you thought about plaintiffs' firms, Loyola 2L? They're not prestige whores to the extent of Biglaw firms. If you're good, you can make lots of money.

Why isn't ATL covering the outing of XOXO hacker Brandon Caire? Is your friendship clouding your judgment?

Interesting:

"The Vick camp has solicited recommendations and is believed to have interviewed at least one prominent defender from the prestigious Washington, D.C., firm of Wilmer Hale. "

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2943276

ATL usually doesn't cover anything XOXO related unless it makes the MSM first (e.g., Washington Post, WSJ Law Blog).

Writing about XOXO just brings more trolls over here. No good can come out of it.

"Have you thought about plaintiffs' firms, Loyola 2L? They're not prestige whores to the extent of Biglaw firms. If you're good, you can make lots of money."

That's where I work. It's not as glamorous as people make it seem.

L2L: What did you think would happen when you enrolled? That Biglaw would be creaming their collective knickers over Loyola grads?

I didn't expect biglaw, but I expected something better than $15/hour slave labor.

To expound on why plaintiff's law sucks, basically it's a bunch of grubby lawyers who start trouble for money. As I’m learning, it’s very easy to start trouble for wealthy people, and they always settle. I used to think this was wrong, but then I was burdened by crushing law school debt and now I'm not so sure. I guess I still think it's wrong but how else can we pay off our debt? The partners are incredibly greedy too - unlike biglaw partners they don’t share the wealth with their help. Opposing counsel pays his associate $160,000/year plus bonus. My boss pays me $15/hour. Supply and demand I guess.

All in all I really regret going to law school.

I don't get this - perhaps someone can enlighten me. Why are the only people complaining about not being able to get jobs from Loyola? Is Loyola the only low-tier school firms won't hire from, or is ATL only read at Loyola?

Enough bitching already L2L. I'm sympathetic to your plight, but its already been discussed here and you are not adding anything new. Why don't you do something useful and start your own anti-lawschool blog. You can do lists of shame for most overpriced schools that give you the least prospects, etc.

The lesson, I think, is you shouldn't go to law school to make money. You should go if you are actually interested in the law and/or in being a lawyer. If all you care about is the bottom line with money, you should go to business school or go into banking or real estate something. Or be an entrepreneur. Take a chance. Law school is filled with people who were too scared to strike out on their own, so they followed the herd to something they thought would make them, at least, financially comfortable. Sorry, but nothing is that easy.

L2L-- if its the ethical dilemma you're complaining about then you won't find relief at biglaw. You know who secretly loves plaintiff's attorneys? Biglaw partners. Everytime they
"start trouble" biglaw gets to handle a new matter and bill the hell out of it before settling. That includes the times when the wealthy people really did act poorly. This is what we do.

Does anyone know about the topic of this post - the Hogan & Hartson case?

It seems really really weird. Have there been other cases like this in the past?

L2L, the amount of time you spend whining on ATL indicates something about your personality. This may, perhaps, be the reason you aren't getting the job.

What are you talking about 1:17? I hardly even comment anymore.

Another thing, L2L, stop feeling sorry for yourself. You're in a hole, but you're not going to get out by whining on blogs.

If you really hate being a lawyer, and simply don't find it interesting, then move on. If you are a reasonably intelligent person, I'm sure you can put that law degree to good use in some other capacity and do better than $15/hr. Plenty of books have been written about transferring out of law into a law-related field.

If you do find the law interesting, but just hate the particular place you are at, try to make the most of it. The advantage about small plaintiffs' shops is associates are usually given a good deal of responsibility. Taking depositions, arguing motions in court, etc. Get as much experience as you can, and then leverage that experience to get a job at a better firm. Yeah, you might never get into biglaw. But there are plenty of good small firms out there that do interesting work and that compensate their associates fairly. Again, books have been written about getting your foot in the door at places worth working at.

"L2L-- if its the ethical dilemma you're complaining about then you won't find relief at biglaw. You know who secretly loves plaintiff's attorneys? Biglaw partners. Everytime they "start trouble" biglaw gets to handle a new matter and bill the hell out of it before settling. That includes the times when the wealthy people really did act poorly. This is what we do. "

At least your boss shares the wealth. I think my bos pays his associates less than he pays the guy who cleans his huge horse ranch.

Why is this aimed just at Hogan & Hartson?

Shouldn't the clients have picked up on this when they got their first bill? Every firm I've ever worked at identifies who billed what time. And, did they really think that the thousands of hours required for bet-the-company litigation would be performed by one person? There is a reason that solo practitioners do not normally handle cases involving millions of pages of documents by themselves.

Maybe it is an allegation that they were lying about who performed the work. That would be highly unethical.

WilmerHale for Vick? Wow, doesn't seem like a dog-fighting defense shop. They do white collar defense, but that's a different ball game. From their website: "We have defended clients against allegations of insider trading; securities, healthcare, accounting and government contracts fraud; criminal antitrust violations; money laundering; and alleged violations of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and other statutes."

"Plenty of books have been written about transferring out of law into a law-related field. . . . Again, books have been written about getting your foot in the door at places worth working at."

You should have closed with "studies have been done which show . . ." rhetoric. I wish someone had a real answer to the problems of tier 2 crap job misery.

Loyola 2L- Get a life. Your sniveling and cry-me-a-river attitude is all over the blogosphere. What the hell?! Are you a Democrat or something; feeling entitled to something you have not earned? Do everyone a favor and climb to the highest point you can attain and JUMP.

"feeling entitled to something you have not earned?"

What do you mean? I paid $36,000 a year in tuition, and spend endless nights studying my ass off for this degree. I'm top 25% in my class. Now I'm working at a legal sweatshop while students from good schools party it up at SA events.

How much harder does someone have to work for a shot at a decent living?

1:27 PM -- I seriously doubt that WilmerHale busted out a compliment of partners to do a client pitch for Michael Vick. I'm guessing there is a partner in that office who has experience with sports/entertainment, and/or who was a former AUSA. (So, the point is... Like every other biglaw firm, most of WilmerHale's criminal law work falls under white collar. But I doubt Vick is shopping for a firm to handle all his business and criminal law needs. There's probably a partner with criminal experience who worked his connections to try to get Vick as a client. Pretty much every big shop has some random partner who represents some random celebrity in areas that aren't typical for biglaw).

L2L, I'm not sure I understand the point of your last post (1:28). But it seems you'd rather wallow in self-pity than do anything about your situation.

I'd be willing to bet that A-hole partner with the horse-ranch didn't go to a top 10 law school. And look at him. Do you think he got where he is bitching about the privileged ivy leaguers that get everything handed to them on a silver platter? Shit no. Now he sues them and takes their money. Embrace who you are and go kick asses. Its time to accept the fact that nothing is going to be handed to you.

L2L--have you tapped all of your friends/family connections? I was at a tier 3 school, top 20% and got my first (post-law school) job at a Fortune 100 company. I had a friend there and asked him if the company needed any interns in the legal department. He emailed the GC, the GC interviewed me and I was working there a week later. Granted, it was only at $15/hr in the beginning, but I worked hard, took whatever came my way, and was quickly promoted. I just transfered to a biglaw shop down the street (at $160,000/year) and still have my connections at the company.

Don't lose faith just because you have one crappy job. Start asking your family and friends if there is ANYTHING (even intern!) available, work hard, and keep your connections when the biglaw shops start calling.

back to the grind...I'm rooting for you L2L--one not-Tier 1 to another...

L2L -- my perception is that you are a miserable, whiney, little brat. Personally, I have little patience for _anyone_ who went to law school for the job at biglaw and the bucks it brings. That includes those who "made it" and went directly to biglaw. On one side of the coin (your side) are the ones who bitch about the money they spent going to school, but "can't" get the job they supposedly want. On the other side of the coin are those who got the job, but bitch because they are miserable because they are just a teeny little cog in a massive soul-less machine.

I find both types insufferable. Why? Because they are not taking responsibility for their own lives and happiness. There is something inherently unattractive about people bitching about how the world has done them wrong, about how they got shafted from experiencing the greener grass on the other side of the fence.

Grow up for chis'sake and realize that if you got the job at biglaw you so covet that you would still be a miserable pathetic excuse of a human being.

It sounds like you think you're entitled based on working hard and paying tuition.

New thread about Michael Vick and WilmerHale:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/wilmerhale_for_michael_vick_ba.php

"Shit no. Now he sues them and takes their money."

Interesting how this dicussion eventually tied back to the Hogan and Hartson article. You're right, the only way a tier 2 student has a chance at paying off student loan debt is through plaintiff's lawsuits.

"Grow up for chis'sake and realize that if you got the job at biglaw you so covet that you would still be a miserable pathetic excuse of a human being."

I didn't want only a biglaw job. I just expected a job that paid a salary which made law school worthwhile. Something more than the minimum wage job I posted above.

And trust me, I would definitely not complain about biglaw. Tier 2 students appreciate a good opportunity.

1:44: Amen.

"It sounds like you think you're entitled based on working hard and paying tuition."

Don't you people regularly complain about making $145,000 instead of $160,000? Why do you get to complain about that, but I can't complain about not making enough to simply pay off my student loan debt while living above the poverty line?

Because that is all you do and you never contribute anything else. Take your complaints and leave, now.

"Because that is all you do and you never contribute anything else. Take your complaints and leave, now."

Isn't every other post on this board a complaint about making $145,000 instead of $160,000? Don't you see the irony in complaing endlessly about that, but refusing to listen to one complaint by a lawyer just struggling to get by?

L2L is a troll, but a very amusing one. Keep up the good work making the Biglaw types nervous.

People like you make me sick. Take ownership of your life and the decisions you have made. You sound perfect for the ACLU or the NAACP, they are full of your type. Put an application in.

Waaaa, poor me. Life isn't fair.
I do just fine with my 200k in student loans. I have a BA, JD, and an LLM. Life is not easy nor is it fair. Welcome to being an Adult. Now, GET OFF MY PLAYGROUND!

"Life is not easy nor is it fair."

Definitely not for those attending a tier 2 law school.

L2L, do you want to do something interesting, meaningful, and rewarding with your law degree? Become an FBI agent. Decent pay (eventually), great retirement, awesome training, and you get to do something good for your country. You get a g-car and a gun, and you're not stuck in an office all thetime. The FBI and lots of other federal law enforcement agencies like hiring lawyers as special agents. too.

A friend from another local toilet (starts with a P and ends with an ine) joined the FBI after failing to get a legal job. He most spends his time paying petty criminals for information. Actually I think he hints that he will pay them ($20 or so, small stuff) but then doesn't because it's illegal. He does like the job though, a lot. He guarded some famous politician a few months ago.

The problem with the FBI, however, is that I could have gotten that job without a law degree. My main dilemma is I feel ripped off; I feel like I wasted the last two years and a ton of money on something worthless.

Alright I'm off. I now remember why I abandoned this board. Too much abuse of students wishing to share the tier 2 perspective.

Sure, you say that you'd never complain about Biglaw, but sooner or later, everybody does. No matter what the tier, one day everyone cracks. Not that they don't do the work willingly, but that they grimace while they do it. Maybe the T10's complain first, but it reaches all levels.

When you get to the point when you can't remember the last time you were awake when you weren't billing, you'll feel like complaining.

Hallelujah!!!

And don't come back unless you have something new and interesting to say.

The worst person in this world is a persistent whiner.

"'Life is not easy nor is it fair.'

Definitely not for those attending a tier 2 law school."

maybe you should have worked harder and gotten into tier 1.
with an attitude like that, i dont think it matters where you went to school. grow up.

L2L is a troll. Why are you all taking him/her/it so seriously? Sheesh.

I'm confused. Who is this ad directed at? H&H represents companies and probably some very wealthy individuals, all of whom are sophisticated. How could any of them possibly convince a court that they really believed that only a partner would be doning their work?

L2L - there's always business school...

Just goes to show you that people have the misconception that law school = $$$.

Get some experience first and then you'll be able to leave your mark and make money...

I am in the same position as you, but it does not mean $$$ is impossible.

You just need to get off the blogs and start hustling (maybe even study for the bar)

"I am in the same position as you"

Really, as a Columbia law grad, your options are also limited to the low paying small firm jobs I posted above? What happened? Wait, are you Aaron Charney?

"Get some experience first and then you'll be able to leave your mark and make money."

I would like to believe this, but how do I know it isn't another lie, like the "law school leads to a good living" line I heard three years ago?

This reminds me of the plane flying a "Jones Day Betrays the Constitution" banner flying around downtown Cleveland a couple of weeks ago. Don't know what that was about either.

I'm sure others have said this before but...L2L....you really can't complain. You made your choice. You had ample opportunity to do other things, pursue other careers. you chose the law. And you chose a second rate school. The absolute worst thing you can do is constantly complain about it.

I feel bad for kids from Loyola. this shithead is giving them a bad name, and will probably lead to some of the best kids at his school (i.e. the ones who worked and got better grades than L2L or completely surpass him in intelligence) not getting great jobs.

Get a life L2L.

" . . . you really can't complain."

If I can't complain about not making enough to pay off my loans, and live above the poverty line, how come you can complain about making $145,000 instead of $160,000? Doesn't that seem sort of warped?

Does anyone know the details of 9:46?

12:41 -- 9:46 here. I only heard of it via email (I work in Cleveland but was out of town at the time). I checked my email and it was on July 3.

Actually the C stands for Cardozo.

And I don't have a 145,000 job, rather I am going to Europe for 5 weeks and I will worry about getting a job when I get back.

Finally, the only number I see that amounts to 145,000 is my loans.

Therefore, that puts us in the same boat. But like I said, I'm sure if you hustle, things will work out.

Jobs aren't gonna be soonfed.

You're taking a 5 week trip to Europe? I imagine that's a reward for your bar study, but it's still a brave financial decision considering your circumstances.

I'm not the one freaking out about not having a job and being bitter towards the profession.

And I have only given you a fraction of my "circusmtances" so there's no need to worry about me... thanks anyway.

"I'm not the one freaking out about not having a [good] job"

Why not? I mean, should an unemployed person in $145,000 of debt be going on a 5 week European vacation? I assume you’re borrowing more money to pay for this trip.

The only way I could justify such an expense is if I were to get a new identity, complete with appearance altering plastic surgery. Good luck finding me then Sallie Mae!

L2L is a whinny little bi**h whose mommy still tucks him in at night. Grow up kid. Shit doesn't get handed to you anymore once you try to be an adult. Perhaps you should have planned for the future a long time ago instead of sliding through life attached to mommy's nipple.

HAHAHAHAHAHA 8:46

Just because your are bitter with the bureaocracy of law school and the legal field, you do not have to be bitter about me going away.

Don't worry about how I am funding my trip. In the spirit of the ATL article, I am awaiting for a vast amount of damages from the Hogan & Hartson litigation (lol)

I hear that the firm engaging in the litigation is hiring. Give them a call.

08:46 PM,

Based on your locution, and your mother issues, I’m pretty sure you’re in high school. However, I’m not a snob so I will address your message, regardless of the way it’s phrased. The internet is for everyone.

"Shit doesn't get handed to you"

Of course not. I’m not asking for a handout. I worked my ass off throughout my life, and in law school. I’m top 25%. I paid a fortune in tuition for an “education.” I’ve paid my dues, and only desire a job with a livable salary. Is this asking for a handout? Is that what our country has come to? Have we officially become third world?

In speaking with my friends it hasn't. People who didn't go to a tier 2 law school are doing fine. Their starting salaries were more than my legal salary, and now they’ve gotten raises. They don’t have law school debt, nor did they spend the last two years studying cases. This is the source of my regret. I feel ripped off. I feel like I wasted two years and a lot of money . . .

You know what I don’t even bothered asking for advice on ATL. I left this board months ago under a torrent of elitist insults, and apparently things haven’t changed.

I just can't stand people that complain about things like this

There are thousands of law students in our position and they all feel that they "paid their dues" and they are entitled to something?

As long as you feel that way I think you souldnt settle on just any job. Look for something that you really want to do. That's what I'm doing... Bar's in 2 days
IM OUT

"for something that you really want to do. That's what I'm doing."

Yeah but you don't even have a job, are in a huge amount of debt, and are about to spend money you don't have on a 5 week European vacation. You just seem kind of deluded. Eventually reality is going to catch up with you.

L2L- Go away and don't come back. Not everyone on here is a big law associate. I went to a T3 School and am doing just fine. I earned an LLM and worked in DC for a while. Your life is what you make it, not what you feel you are entitled to. Do you realize you have become a punchline on this and other blogs? Instead of being known as insightful and intelligent everyone thinks you are petty, entitled and pathetic. It is no wonder BIGLAW is out of your reach, you have the wrong attitude. Karma is a beautiful thing.

"I went to a T3 School and am doing just fine."

I went to a T2 school and am making $15/hour. I won't be able to pay my bills, and although I look for hope, all realistic options lead to the conclusion that law school harmed my financial well being.

I'm sorry that the rare T3 students who did well hate to hear of your poor brethren, but we exist.

Anonymous "doing just fine" 2:35 is a bar re-taker. See his/her 2:32 post in another thread.

"I plan on posting during the lunch break, or if I hack exam soft, maybe i'll post during the exam. I'll right my essays in the comment box and then cut and paste them back into exam soft.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 22, 2007 02:32 PM"
http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/nationwide_pay_raise_watch_big.php#comment-73584

Figures about 2:35. The people who get angriest at my posts are fellow tier 2/3 students. I'm like the guy at the homeless shelter who complains about the roaches. TTT students either compain about their poor lot, or put others down for complaining about it. It's beyond sad all around.

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3:56-I am not a bar retaker, I passed the first time I sat. Thanks. Asshole.
And for those haters who think that poor L2L has a tough row to how, waaaaaahhhhhhh. Just because you can't hack it with what you have doesn't mean everyone else can't as well. Firms are not interested in those who sit around and cry. They want workers who contribute something---consider that next time you post L2L and 3:56.
I am on my way to spend some of that nice fat paycheck....

I was actually interested in this topic, having heard the radio ad myself (and of course thinking it would be good fodder for ATL). The ad also mentions a steel building company, which presumably is the aggrieved client. As for the rest of the off-topic posts, get a life - all of you -and stop wasting space!

10:42, L2L clearly works for Hogan and Hartson's publicity department. Way to kill a thread.

Hey L2L want to to come to Europe with me?

Ha Ha Ha

Nevermind - just stay here and look for jobs - I am sure all the partners and people who make these big hiring decisions are gonna be around in August in the sweltering heat putting up posts waiting around for someone like you to send them your mediocre resume.

Good luck pal

P.S. Stop hating....

Sorry Anon... he's too annoying

Go work at a small firm, get the experience for a year or two, then lateral to a large firm. Big Law has learned that this is much more cost effective than the typical route of rushing summer associates, training them as first years, only to have them lateral elsewhere anyways.

Though, if litigation is your bag, you'll find it somewhat more limiting to lateral around so easily.