maybe some go commando!

David,
Can you please devote one entry in your highly read blog to tier 2 unemployment? The mainstream media is picking up on the problem. Here is a recent article from law.com http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1183712786622
As the world's most widely read legal blogger (that's how I perceive you any way), your attention to this matter might help young law students avoid the misery which is now my life.
-------------
In other news, here is a job recently listed on Loyola's job board. Yes, you read correctly, it pays MINIMUM WAGE.

Employer Name:

More about Employer: Law Offices of

Contact Name: XXX
Address: XXX
City: Beverly Hills, CA 90212
Telephone: 310-XXX
Facsimile: 310-XXX
E-Mail: XXX
Description: HOURS: Part-time. DURATION: Permanent. SALARY: Minimum wage. STUDENT LEVEL: 1L, 2L, 3L, Grads awaiting results, Grads admitted to bar. QUALIFICATIONS: Excellent analytical and organizational skills required. JOB DESCRIPTION: NO EXPERIENCE NECESSARY! A young, aggressive Beverly Hills litigation Entertainment Law Firm seeks law students (any year) to work at least 25+ hours per week. You will, act as a law clerk, perform administrative duties (answer client phone calls, etc.), and assist in all phases of general substantive civil litigation (i.e. filing law suits, etc.). The Law Firm also does litigation in the following areas: Business, Corporate, Real Estate, Employment, and Personal Injury litigation (see our website at XXX for details). This is a great opportunity to possibly continue on as an attorney with the law firm upon Bar passage, gain useful hands on legal and law firm management skills to start your own practice that can not be gained at a large law firm, gain experience to possibly get a large law firm six figure job that requires prior work experience, and build your resume in general. This is also a great opportunity to learn how the rainmakers generate business and turn a profit. You will be assigned cases and supervised. You may directly observe the Senior Attorney. You may obtain a letter of recommendation upon satisfactory completion of the job. HOW TO APPLY: Fax resume to XXX
Date Entered: 07/09/07

This is dumb -- another commenter already gave a reasonable explanation -- that a woman might change her bra so that it doesnt show through a white blouse.

Also, there was nothing to indicate that this happens repeatedly -- it may have simply been one image. No reason to believe they are constantly getting "buck naked."

To emphasize the minimum wage part - Yes, this is a job, as an attorney, which pays the same as that earned by new Honduran immigrants who can't speak english. Why isn't the press devoting more time to the complete and total life crushing scam which is a tier 2 law school?

I'm not entirely sure why people would be changing underwear and bras in their offices, although the sports bra suggestion is plausible. However, I change clothes in my biglaw office on a semi-regular basis, due to post-work plans, attending the summer associate bowling event, etc. The people who are floored at the idea of anyone changing clothes in their office must not have much of a social life.

minimum wage for a student position in an entertainment firm is good pay. Most of them force to you work for nothing, just so you can get them coffee.

And her panties? He got footage of bare buttocks too.

Also, the news accounts suggest that multiple women were videotaped in this manner.

I would live in my office if I could. You can't afford your own place on tier 2 law school salaries. A bed in the corner, and showers at the gym might actually give me a food budget.

ATL should do another interview with Oo'oona Oo'connel. She's pretty much the posterchild for lawyers who like to get naked and are articulate enough to string a few words together.

Who really cares why people were bare-assed in their offices? If the women had been up to anything inappropriate, I'm sure they would be in just as much trouble as this Barta perv. Why do so many lawyers get the runs over the idea of someone doing something that they have never thought of doing themselves?

Lat, I'm not picking on you, because obviously some people think that this topic is worthy of discussion.

Um...well...from personal experience: I have certain undergarments I wear with certain clothes. Undergarments that look fine under t-shirts and jeans do not work with a silk shirt and skirt or slacks. Most slacks look best with a thong for example and sometimes thongs are uncomfortable to wear with jeans since the seams are scratchy. So if you're going to put on a suit you may have to get naked.

The issues with second-tier students are actually interesting to me - I don't think we have them down in the third tier, where I go to school - nobody here expects a high-paying, biglaw job (though a few of us do get them). How much of the problem is the market, and how much, as suggested by the article, are inflated expectations caused by Employment Services people at law schools?

3:54: This thread is worthless without pictures.

"minimum wage for a student position in an entertainment firm is good pay."

Small hourly salaries aren't just for entertainment law firms, it applies to all the jobs on our board. So you're right it is market pay, but I wouldn't call it good pay.

The market is simply too saturated with attorneys and tier 2 schools need to stop charging so much, and admitting so many law students.

To changing clothes at 2:44,

Ok, I get the changing clothes part: I change to meet friends for dinner or happy hour, or to go to court.

But -- and here is the part that has me confused -- I change in the bathroom, not in my office itself. My quick read of these stories makes it seem like women were changing clothes in their own office. Isn't there just too much risk that someone will knock and open the door to see if you are in? (I guess this comes back to the discussion about which firms have locks on office doors -- mine does not -- and which have solid wood doors -- here again, mine does not.)

Way Third Tier, but I got a cool job,
I would give anything to go back in time, so I could attend a third tier school on scholarship rather than Loyola. I spent money on this school hoping the name would give me an advantage on the job market. Instead, even at top 25%, I have the exact same prospects as students from tier 3 and tier 4 schools.
Loyola 2L

There is also the possibility of the occasional "skid mark" showing up on your panties, making a switchout imperative.

3:58,

No one has ever walked into my office with the door closed. If they have something for me they leave it with my secretary or slip it under my door. Its considered extremely rude to walk into someone's office when they've closed the door. Often there are confidential client matters (for which we have Chinese Walls established). Heck even the cleaning crew won't come in if the door is shut. On the other hand, people know when you're changing in the bathroom and it may make it difficult to make a quick escape if you trying to cut out of the office before 8.

Der...

Often there are confidential client matters (for which we have Chinese Walls established) [on my desk].

2nd tier law schools are not really that much of a scam. There are all sorts of reasons for going lower. I had gotten into Fordham and Cornell, but instead chose to go to a much cheaper state school (in the second tier).

Either 2nd tier stigma doesn't attach to state schools, or my state school is the exception, but I managed to get a Biglaw job, as did the top 3rd of my class.

Additionally, lots of people from lower tier schools end up being excellent attorneys and going into biglaw after a year or two of practice. Sometimes, even the brightest people mess up the LSAT's (or perhaps their first year in undergrad), and those people's ability usually ends up shining through and they succeed anyway.

That said, low 3rd and 4th tier schools are pretty much a scam (especially those that mandate a 1/3rd fail-out)

Loyola 2L - Is geography possibly somehow involved in all of this? Did you look only in one specific market, or all over?

I hope that rather than feeding into the idea that every lawyer is entitled to a high-paying job, drawing attention to the second tier employment issues will help some people to realize that it is risky to borrow obscene amounts of money to go to a school with mixed placement opportunities. To me, blaming it on the admissions office/career office is like whining that someone who wanted an i-banking job was duped into getting a business degree from the University of Phoenix. Even a 4th tier school isn't going to put "don't come here if you want to make more than minimum wage" on its website.

Legal Aid lawyer = left-wing hippie = no bra?

"I managed to get a Biglaw job, as did the top 3rd of my class. "

I don't want to accuse you of lying. I don't know your school or what happens to your graduate.s I do know that at Loyola, only the top 5-10% get biglaw, so that's not an option for the average grad.

I'm shocked, however, at the cliff in salaries after biglaw. So I was only top 25% and couldn't get biglaw, so what I can still get a livable job, right? Wrong. The only jobs available to the rest of us are awful low paying jobs.

Let's take the talk about job opportunities and law schools to the new post:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/its_hard_out_here_for_nontopti.php

OK, this may be the former public defender in me coming out, but could it be that the aggrieved legal aid attorney’s got naked by design, AFTER they discovered a “new Sharper Image alarm clock” in their offices—appearing out of nowhere in a legal aid office that can afford nothing new—to, shall we say, ENHANCE the criminal investigation?

Can you spell E-N-TR-A-P-M-E-N-T?

It's not entrapment if the guy was predisposed to the behavior -- it certainly seems as if he was.

Hello all,

I am a former staff attorney who worked at the LAS with Barta.

That being said, all those who question getting changed in your office, the situation at the office in question (49 Thomas Street, 2nd floor) is this: Support staff (paralegals, secretary, investigators, etc.) have public cubicles, while Staff Attorneys get a semi-private office (in most cases sharing it with one other staff attorney). The doors lock so you have total privacy (at least you are supposed to). When your office mate is out you have the office to yourself.

Many people commute in their civies and change into their office attire when they get to work and as soon as they’re done in court, its back to the soft clothes. I changed in my office every day as I preferred to be in casual attire while not in court. Being a man I do not have to worry about whether my under garments are appropriate with certain attire (boxers, briefs, thongs, or commando - everything goes well under a man’s suit). After 15+ years with my wife I am fully aware that the same cannot be said for women’s attire. I can easily see how a woman has to wear the appropriate undergarments with certain outfits.

There were countless times that I was in the office of a colleague, male or female, who asked me to excuse myself from their office so they could change their attire, and never did it occur to me to violate my colleagues trust in such a fashion (not to mention to commit a felony, after all, we were all seasoned defense attorneys and definitely know the law).

As for the comment about changing in the public bathrooms, they are quite small, about three to four stalls and a small open area and actually afford less privacy then a staff attorney’s locked office. (That is assuming there are no surveillance devices in your office).

I hope this clears things up a bit. I am happy to answer any questions (as we use to say in criminal court...not about the facts of the case)...

Yours,

EX-LAS CDD

The real question is this:

Why would he want to see any "woman" from Legal Aid naked?

Trust me folks, they range from nasty to fugly. Think hairy, overweight, and unkempt. They seem determined to exercise their constiutional right not to bathe.

Guess he has a fat fetish.

Someone said:

"Why would he want to see any "woman" from Legal Aid naked?

Trust me folks, they range from nasty to fugly. Think hairy, overweight, and unkempt. They seem determined to exercise their constiutional right not to bathe.

Guess he has a fat fetish"

For the most part, some may say this is an accuraty statement.

However, it is not a completely correct statement. I know the women he allegedly took pictures of and they do not reflect what Skip describes. Just thought I’d clear that up for you.

Yours,

EX-LAS CDD

To the guy hypothesizing about "entrapment" -- with your logic, I pity the public that you were defending. Whether the women got naked or not is actually irrelevant to the case. Fact of the matter is that he planted a video recording device in their office without their knowledge, and with the knowledge that they would likely be in some state of undress at some point. That alone is illegal. (Could their being fully naked at some point increase their damages claim? Perhaps).

Moreover, they didn't entrap him into putting a surveillance device into their offices. Barta did that all on his own.

But if they knew they were being observed and undressed to "enhance" the case, then it was not "without their knowledge" was it?

I am not proffering a legal defense, nor am I defending the behavior; I just think it weird that lawyers get totally naked in their office at work.

And if a brand new clock radio showed up on every female attorney desk in a poverty law firm out of thin air I would be more than a little suspicious.

There is more to this story than meets the eye. That is all I suggest.

10:29,

Go back to document review in the basement. The clothes-changing thing has been beaten to death. Barta is a perv and will end up pleading guilty to something. Stop blaming the victims for trying to be comfortable while practicing law.

White
Girls
With
Asian
Guys
With
Video
Cameras
Inside of
Clocks

Can someone explain to me what the heck is with the dude who is alway sposting this WGWAG stuff?

(I do have to admit, the WVCIC addition caused an in-office laugh outburst. Good thing it's the middle o' tha firgin nite.)

I've been wondering the same thing re: WGWAG for a while now. My understanding is that these posts come from a small number of leftists who keep posting this as a way of defying the non-PC stereotype of the white guy with the Asian girl. At least that must be what it was at first, now I wouldn't be surprised if the troll(s) who continue posting this has lost the original political meaning.

Just a clarification for the men who don't understand why bare buttocks are shown when a woman changes clothing. Have you ever seen a woman in thong underwear? They are a necessary undergarment for fitted slacks and don't exactly cover your bare buttocks.

All -- Asking questions about victims behaviour is so typical of your trade. Move on.

"Also, there was nothing to indicate that this happens repeatedly "

yeah...except the fact that the guy set up a fucking sky cam in the exact right location because he knew it would happen.

maybe he's just omnicient?

I, too, would like my inbox flooded with emails bearing the subject header "Naked Legal Aid Lawyers". Wouldn't be the first time.

Also, remember when L2L was funny? Recently, he's just been sad. I miss the old L2L.

I'm sure I'm late to this discussion but since I worked at this LAS office for 6 years (a couple of them with Barta) I thought I'd throw my two cents in. Others have explained why LAS lawyers change in their offices (from work clothes to street clothes for doing investigations or going out after work). This is absolutely correct. Furthermore, Legal Aid lawyers often work double shifts, a regular 9-5 work day then a night court arraignment shift from 5pm to 1 am. When I was at LAS we also worked the "lobster shift", an arraignment tour that started at 1 am and ended at 9 am. When you have to work incredibly long shifts sometimes you have to change clothes, ALL of your clothes, just to feel somewhat human again. If you're wondering what I'm talking about then spend a few hours in lockup at 100 Centre Street and you'll understand. In addition to this, the Tribeca gym is about a block from the office and some lawyers change into gym clothes before heading over. As far as I know most women don't wear panties under snug fitting gym shorts or under mesh-lined gym shorts. I think that explains the exposed buttocks issue. As for the exposed breasts, many women change from bras into camisoles and vice versa and LAS has a lot of working mothers who pump breast milk in the privacy of their offices. Each complex has a fridge; their are 6 complexes of attorneys. The offices are private (when your officemate is out) and the doors lock. As for women not picking up on the clocks in their office, I imagine the attorneys in that particular office assumed it belonged to their respective office mate. And since LAS offices aren't exactly spacious it's easy to understand how a common item like a digital clock may go unnoticed. All this being said, I feel bad for Barta but he certainly wasn't entrapped and I feel terrible for the attorneys affected who don't deserve to be criticized for any of this.