Atlanta is the worst.

How short is the DC List of Shame now? We need a post on that just before August, so those firms that haven't bumped will show up in search engine results as rising 2Ls look around the net.

$170,000 isn't enough to get me to live in Houston again.

Lawyers and other professionals wear five-gallon hats. A ten-gallon hat looks hickish.

BB leapfrog V&E...could it be true!!??

Will this spread to other markets, like Philadelphia or Atlanta or Miami? Is Boston at 160?

Awful timing for raising salaries. I already ruled out Texas for next summer because they weren't paying market.

What a grand myth for BB to try to spread, that a firm delayed raising salaries so that they could consider raising them even higher! What a crock.

The only way BB won't leapfrog V&E is if they too incorporate some AWEFUL deferred compensation scheme!

V&E associates can't spell.

10:29
Agreed, the timing couldn't be worse. Firms have to know that most students OCI bids are due very shortly. Unless they push it this info isn't going to get out to most 2Ls.

Didn't BB come in like 5k above the rest of Big-Tex last time?

I bet BB will have an additional tier of comp for those who bill over 2300 hrs.

WAKE UP ATLANTA......

ok this sucks. Oh well, could be in Atlanta.

Baker McKenzie, still on the DC list of shame.

Philadelphia will not benefit from any of this. Get out while you can.

Is this accurate then?

DC Vault of Shame (still at 145,000)

17. Williams & Connolly ($165k no bonus)
40. Baker Botts
42. Baker & McKenzie
50. Fulbright & Jaworski
59. Alston & Bird
64. Holland & Knight
70. Hunton & Williams
71. Patton Boggs
74. Kirkpatrick Lockhart
75. Nixon Peabody
77. Bryan Cave
86. McGuire Woods
88. Arent Fox
93. Kilpatrick Stockton
96. Venable

Wasn't someone at 135?

"... we are seeking input from our associates so that our compensation structure rewards our attorneys and preserves our culture."

I'm sure there will be tons of Eighth years saying "Please, massah, make my salary contingent on billing 2,000 hours. That's the only way to teach me a lesson."

How are the markets ranked now?

1. NY/DC/CA
2. Texas
3. Charlotte/Richmond/Baltimore/Seattle
4. Atlanta

Atlanta is just depressing. Are any of the partners/firms actually worried?

Atlanta to $35k!

I sincerely hope Atlanta partners aren;t betting that they can get away with not raising.

How out-of-touch can you be? It will be a f**king blood bath.

11:02, I thinkit is
1.NY/CHI/CA/DC
2.texas
3.Philly/Boston, etc.

The Atlanta market is shit, pure shit. Any Tier 1 law student who bids for an OCI with an Atlanta firm is just insane. Period.

Yeah, what's up with Atlanta?

greed. that's what's up with Atlanta.

greed. that's what's up with Atlanta.

Arent Fox can be removed from the list of shame--raised to $160K this week.

11:12
Seems so, I want to work for an IP Practice, not so many here above $115(ATL)

11:07, you hope? They are trying to get away with it right now, this very second. This round of raises started in May, for Chrissakes. Atlanta hasn't done shit in May, June, and now July. It doesn't take 3 months to make a decision. The decision has been made, and it's a big "fuck you" to every associate.

But they offer so much more than money :)

Bob Jewell, I LOVE YOU! You are just as good as Howard. Keep up the good work; you're the jewel in your associates' eyes.

Assuming they aren't giving with one hand and taking with the other (we'll see what this whole reconsideration of the productivity bonus system is about soon enough), TX has taken its rightful place again, somewhere between the truly secondary markets (Charlotte, Atlanta, etc.) and the primary markets (NYC, DC, Chicago and LA). The world makes sense again, and I am now adding TX firms to my OCI list (not sure what others are saying about bad timing - this is perfect for getting my attention right before OCI season).

Well, maybe if I make partner in ATL in a few years I will be grateful that we are keeping the market so low. But for now, this just sucks.

The worst part of this is that Atlanta is not a secondary market to Houston. K&S tops pretty much any Houston-based firm in terms of clients and PPP. V&E is basically the same as Alston. Below that the major firms in the two markets are pretty comparable down the line. The only difference is that Houston partners give a shit about recruiting talent and being fair, and the Atlanta partners don't.

Fulbright is off the D.C. list of shame, they raised to $160k last week. New list:

DC Vault of Shame (still at 145,000)

17. Williams & Connolly ($165k no bonus)
40. Baker Botts
42. Baker & McKenzie
59. Alston & Bird
64. Holland & Knight
70. Hunton & Williams
71. Patton Boggs
74. Kirkpatrick Lockhart
75. Nixon Peabody
77. Bryan Cave
86. McGuire Woods
88. Arent Fox
93. Kilpatrick Stockton
96. Venable

I know many 1L summers at top firms in Atlanta, and none are planning on returning. Most are more upset that this shows the firms aren't committed to keeping associate morale high and are less concerned about the actual money itself. Basically see it as a kick to the balls of all the associates.

As an mid-level Atlanta associate billing over 2200 every year in a very profitable practice area and making less than a 1st year in Texas who works for a firm that has far lower PPP that mine, I can say for the record that I feel EXACTLY like I have been kicked in the balls.

Many 1L summers at top firms in ATL? Let's see.... K&S takes a single minority 1L, A&B takes about 5 1Ls, and maybes less than ten between Kilpatrick and Troutman.

There are probably less than 20 1Ls working at top firms in ATL.

But still, let that be a lesson to these firms - FIX COMPRESSION NOW!

11:38-

Yes, many 1Ls. I know about 8. And most are aware of the salary situation in Atlanta and are happy they have significantly more mobility for next summer than the current 2L summers.

11:35 /11:41

Good to know. Thanks for the info. And if I may ask - are most of the 1Ls from T14 schools or does a student from a GA school have a chance as a 1L?

The ones I know are from T14s, but apparently there are at least a few at their firms from GA schools.

At my Atlanta shop the more than a few 2L summers have asked me about compensation and told me that plan to drop and OCI as 3Ls in other cities. It's embarassing when I don't have an good answer for them and the only thing I can say is "sorry for wasting your summer and screwing you" and that I would do exactly the same.

11:32- any word about Fulbright TX?

I worked at an Atlanta firm as a 1L. Of the five of us, four were T14 and the other was from (the very top of the class of) a Georgia law school.

Any word re: when Fulbright TX will match? upcoming meetings?

Enough with Atlanta. What about Philly and Boston? What's up there?

Ugly people and crappy weather, that is "what's up there".

You can bet that next year when I clerk I will be opening up the application process. This is crap. I like ATL, but I want to work around top talent, not the leftovers. ATL partners--get moving!

Someone posted on infirmation.com that S&C just raised to $190K. Any confirmation?

http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?topic=Greedy%20NY&msg_id=003Aus

OK...What's a T14...top 14 maybe?

Let's not forget that TX firms have a crappy bonus system ($1K first year, $5K second year, etc.). Bonuses in the top markets range from $35K - $65K for junior associates. So even with a matched base, the TX firms are still a bit behind.

Old Guy -

Yes. T14 refers to top 14 in the US News rankings.

Good job!

National List of Shame:

1. Atlanta

Short list.

12:14

Thanks!

Atlanta is a f*cking joke. Turn back the clock....the city is turning back into a 3rd tier, dumb hick, aw shucks, legal market again.

Any law student without a family connection to Atlanta who takes a job here is either (1) retarded or (2) can't get a job anywhere else.

Atlanta comp. is down-right shameful.

Where is BB on this?

Boston, NY, DC, Wilmington, DE, and even one firm in Charlotte (Mayer Brown, apparently) are all starting at $160. Yet Philadelphia, the nation's 4th largest city, squarely located in the middle of the I-95 corridor, is still at $145, even though two major, highly profitable firms (Dechert and Morgan Lewis, and Dechert is something like 15th on the nationwide PPP list) are based there. That is ridiculous. Philly is worse than Atlanta at this point. How come no one from Philly is complaining?? Step up! We're not going to get any movement if we just stand by eating our cheesesteaks.

Lat- We need more Philly coverage for the reasons cited above.

I suggest a comparison of which market is more disgraceful -- Philly or Atlanta.

Arent Fox is off the D.C. list of shame, they raised to $160k this week and held hours at 1950.

DC Vault of Shame (still at 145,000)

17. Williams & Connolly ($165k no bonus)
40. Baker Botts
42. Baker & McKenzie
59. Alston & Bird
64. Holland & Knight
70. Hunton & Williams
71. Patton Boggs
74. Kirkpatrick Lockhart
75. Nixon Peabody
77. Bryan Cave
86. McGuire Woods
93. Kilpatrick Stockton
96. Venable

12:54 - Atlanta, no question.

12:54: cheesesteaks are better than coca-cola. Besides, Philadelphia has some neat historical stuff.

Ergo, Atlanta is more shameful than Philadelphia.

Any F&J associate have any updates???

1:05: Did we see a memo for Arent Fox?

Philly is the 6th largest city behind NYC, LA, Chicago, Houston, and Phoenix.

Cheesesteaks are good though.

People seem to have stopped talking about the Chicago list of shame. Does that mean that the market is de facto stratified and people don't expect the second tier firms to raise?

Atlanta is far more shameful than Philly. Atlanta still has not responded to the move to 145 by comparable markets (Charlotte, Texas back when, etc.), which happened over 3 months ago despite several highly profitable firms with PPP over $1 million). That Philly hasn't responded to the Texas move to 160 in less than 24 hours isn't shameful.

1:20 - largest city how? Metropolitan area is often more important to a law firm than residents within the city limits.

What about Jacksonville, FL. I think it is the largest US city by land area within the city limits. I dont hear them clamoring "Jacksonville to 190K!"

Is it just me or does the 10 gallon hat with the dollar sign on it look like a great big penis?

Jacksonville is the largest city in the lower 48. One or two cities in Alaska are bigger.

12:09 - My Texas firm certainly doesn't have a bonus structure like that. 1k? Are you kidding me? I would give it back.

Dechert LLP, based in Philly, had PPP of $1.9 million this past year. And yet they are paying their associates in their home office $145, despite paying their associates in satellite offices in NY, DC, Boston, and elsewhere $160. That's whack.

1:36: Remember when Dechert DC tried to pay different amounts to associate in different groups, even though it was billing all of its associates out at the same rate to clients, regardless of their practice group?

You have to expect a degree of "whack" from that firm.

King & Spalding had PPP of $1.4 in the Atlanta office this year and has been paying its associates $130 (and only recently that, with ridiculous compression up the scale--5 and 6th years make less than 160), despite paying its satellite offices in NYC, DC, and (soon) Houston $160. That's wacker.

At least Dechert and Morgan Lewis are not being outpaid by other firms in their own market. K&S has allowed Hunton and others to outpay it in Atlanta for months, with no response. Not to mention that associates in Charlotte and Richmond make more than K&S Atlanta associates. And let's not forget A&B paying its Charlotte folks more while giving the big "screw you" to the home office folks.

Charlotte and Richmond making more than Atlanta is kind of like Harrisburg paying more than Philly. When it gets that bad in the City of Brotherly Love, then we'll talk.

That said, I agree Philly firms should raise.

Top tier students should boycott Atlanta. Let them have a year to think about what life is like with a buncha kids from GaState, Mercer, and 'Bama. By your 3L year rolls around, you will have options and a far better Atlanta market.

If you don't like it ---- leave. Simple as that. From the complaining i'd predict most of you won't be in you firms in 2-3 years anyhow. If you do manage to make the cut i'm sure you will take your sweet time deciding whether to raise salaries in already inflated markets.

If you don't like it ---- leave. Simple as that. From the complaining i'd predict most of you won't be in you firms in 2-3 years anyhow. If you do manage to make the cut i'm sure you will take your sweet time deciding whether to raise salaries in already inflated markets.

If you don't like it ---- leave. Simple as that. From the complaining i'd predict most of you won't be in you firms in 2-3 years anyhow. If you do manage to make the cut i'm sure you will take your sweet time deciding whether to raise salaries in already inflated markets.

The interesting thing will be to see if they lose the students at Emory and Georgia. They've already priced themselves out of the market at Duke, but if they start losing students at those two schools, they'll have little choice but to meet the market demands, one would think.

Btw.. we've heard alot about BB, but still nada from F&J? Has anyone even heard about meetings there on the subject?

I have it from a good source that F&J will raise, but it will take a few weeks before they figure out the new salary structure.

My guess is that they will match V&E and set min billables at 1950.

You would assume F&J has to match, but the thing that a lot of non-Texans don't recognize is that every summer in Texas does split summers. Most of the firms -- V&E, F&J, BB included -- only offer six week stints. Offers from those firms are arriving soon, if they haven't already. I don't think this is an instance where they can drag their feet too long, because if I have an offer from F&J and and offer from V&E, I'm going to take the one worth $25k more.

Plus, it's not like it was impossible to see this coming. Clearly, AK had a plan in place. Seems shortsighted to me.

re 2:09 - I was told by a friend that K&S and the like would not even consider people from Emory who weren't top 5%. So they have a ways to go before they are scraping the bottom.

For Fall OCI at UGA, I think Troutman requested top 5%, Alston prefered top 20%, Kilpatrick required top 20%, and K&S wanted "high academic achievement."

I suspect they will grant more interviews from this pool and hire more, but will not change their published preferences to save face.

Interesting analysis from everyone. I have to agree that the Atlanta market is more whack than Philly, although I still think Philly is pretty bad.

I think that ATL firms will lose kids from Emory b/c these students have other options outside of GA. The ones at UGA, their other choice is the Hall County public defender's office working with meth addicts.

Then just leave. Wow. Did you think that up all by yourself? Holy shit, I see why you are such a hot commodity. Reasoning like that doesn't come cheap.

For the last f**king time: People in Atlanta are so pissed because the world has shifted so dramatically under our feet and the partners for whom we toil have burried their heads in the sand in response. Most of us came here when the spread between Atlanta and other markets was reasonable. It no longer is. The change has happened in the last 4 months and change. You don't pick up and move in 4 months unless you are miserable to begin with. You bitch and moan (publically and internally) like we are now in the hope that your firm will step up. The first signs of problems come in OCI and summer retention (and that is at the end of a cycle--the folks summering here this year don't have many other options). I will say, however, that lateral defections are not too far off.

Wait 2:26 -- how is Georgia, ranked #36, given more credit than Emory, ranked #22? I've never heard a large firm so blatant about disregarding US News (which would be kind of refreshing to hear, but still seems unusual).

Can anyone shed some light to those of us not in Georgia why this might be?

1:10 - the AF webpage will probably be updated sometime this week to reflect the bump...

2:37 - the info about Emory was from a friend who was bitter while the UGA OCI is the "official" version.

I am guessing the "official" version from Emory is similar to UGA's.

~2:26

UGA is a tougher school that draws a more competitive* (and ultimately more local) student body due to the marvel that is in-state tuition.

Once you commit to UGA law, you are telling people you are "all-in" the Georgia market.

Competitive = internal competition. The brass ring of the top 5% is that much brighter when the bottom-half of your class is a war story. This brings the true cream to the top.

The people in Atl who are pissed are the bottom feeders from T1 schools who were lucky to get a summer offer in the first place. Now that you have your foot in you feel entitled to bitch about a job you probably wouldn't have but for the crappy market . Enjoy the summer...one way or another you probably won't be back.

2:37--

Historically, Georgia Law and Emory have been near equal in USNews rankings -- with old line Georgia folks (including senior partners) preferring Georgia. Nearly every lawyer with any political ambition in the State goes to Georgia. Only recently with some turmoil at Georgia law over faculty appointments and an ousted dean has the USnews spread become more pronounced.

Generally speaking, Atlanta firms (and firms in the South generally) view Georgia and Emory as substantial equals in terms of quality of legal education. Georgia firms may even give a preference to Georgia because (i) the students are more likely to have connections to Georgia, and (ii) therefore, have a greater propensity to stick around longer than a couple years.

I agree with 2:48 -- I don't know of anyone from Georgia that applied to both Emory and Georgia, got into both, and then chose to go to Emory.

Georgia malcontents, start your own thread.

Jesus tap-dancing Christ! Wasn't this a thread about Texas rumors? How in the hell did it turn into a rant about ATLANTA?

An Emory-versus-UGA pissing match?? WTF????

3:13, I agree!

UGA Grads to $35k!

Atlanta to Another Thread!

To BB Associate -- Tell your firm to actually do something, then we'll have something else to talk about. We're kinda at an information lull here.

V&E, AK moved, no one else has yet but will. Not much more to talk about.

Atlanta sucks. Move discussion back to Texas.

A Texas Post:

Will K&S raise in Houston (what is it at now?)?

And if they do, what will ATL associates think?

Yes, K&S will raise in Houston. And probably leave Atlanta behind again. Morale is already so far in the shitter in Atl, might as well continue piling on the Atl associates, if it will save the partners money.

Jones Day Dallas and Houston have typically been a little higher than everyone else, partly to compensate for the lack of bonuses (i.e. going to 150 when other firms (GDC) settled at 145. So now are they headed to 165?

Lat:

I love the hat graphic. Excellent work.

Another reason to avoid ATL

Normally the formula for calculating summer pay is 1st year base divided by 52 and rounding to the nearest hundred (more or less). Thus in markets making $160K summers make $3100/wk

In Atlanta, 1st years are making $130K. Divide that by 52 and the summers should be making $2500/wk. BUt accordinig to NALP, K&S is only paying $2100/wk.

Even if you take the old scale of paying $115k, the summers should be making at least $2200/week.

FJ associates (TX)...any news/updates???

Baker Botts has raised in Washington apparently:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/07/nationwide_pay_raise_watch_bak.php

news of locke liddell to 160k: any news on Fulbright or AG?

No wonder Lat wrote that bitchy post slapping down the Atlanta people.

ATL people, just accept your fate. Do you see Tulsa lawyers hijacking threads about real legal markets to complain?

There should be another Atlanta discussion thread since nearly every post about salaries usually end up with a ton of Atlanta comments.

It's been said before, but no firm in Atlanta is going to move until K&S does, and it doesn't seem like they will. Doesn't help any that the other Hays runs the other big shop in town (Alston).

Maybe K&S Atlanta have resigned themselves to being TTT? Maybe Hays and his boys have decided to not bother with competing for top talent anymore? I know that nearly half of the K&S summers were from Georgia schools.

Enough about ATL. Just accept your fate. You just don't see the active mobility out of ATL and partners know it. It's not like the very frequent moves you see between people switching from Chi and NY or Chi and SF or DC and NY. Just take comfort in knowing that there are worst places to live.

I admire the fast and effient manner in which Texas executes its' death row inmates- Bravo!