First

L2L will get to work in Tijuana. Big perk for him.

Fulbright London to $300k!!!!!

I was told that I shouldn't be seduced by the excitement of living and working overseas straight out of law school because it's a bad career move. It's better, so I was told, to stay stateside for a couple years and develop some skills, expertise etc. in an American area of law before going overseas. Does anybody have any thoughts? Obviously, it's still possible to develop expertise in American law overseas because that's technically what you'll be practicing, but it's obviously more difficult. I'd love to hear from somebody who knows about this sort of thing, though.

Katten has allowed some of its Charlotte associates to work in London for six or so weeks at a time. I don't know what the deal was with their salaries while there.

I am a second year law student at a top school and I want to work at a firm in London. I went straight from college to law school and I have no significant overseas experiences. How can I convince firms that I'm really interested in working at their London office (i.e. that I won't bail after 2 yrs)?

When responding, can people differentiate between going abroad for a finite amount of time and permanently transferring to a foreign office. I would imagine that some of the perks we're going to hear about are based on a limited time abroad.

What is the likelihood that other firms will match Cravath's COLA? Is COLA like associate salaries that ends up being the same for everyone or does it really vary from firm to firm?

What is the likelihood that other firms will match Cravath's COLA? Is COLA like associate salaries in that ends up being the same for everyone or does it really vary from firm to firm?

A few of thoughts on this.

First, Norton Rose pays a COLA to their US juniors of 35k pounds (on top of $160k). All of a sudden that looks like a ripoff - but I wonder if it'll increase with the increasing whimpiness of the dollar.

Second, 2:02: you can develop plenty of expertise overseas, and do very well for yourself professionally, but it's not the sort of expertise that will serve you very well stateside. In short, if you want to move abroad after law school, either do it for a very brief period (less than two years, ideally), or permanently. There are plenty of partnership and in-house positions for US capital markets work in London, and those are there for the taking if you have overseas experience; but you'll find it hard to get credit for your years of service if and when you want to come back to the US.

Third, to 2:13: it can certainly be done, but it's not easy. London firms _do_ look for warning signs that students are just trying to get a free summer in London; it's easiest to assuage this if you can point to family or living experience in London (not just travel on holidays, etc.). I'll ask you right now: why are you so sure, at 23, that you want to pick up and leave the country to settle in a place in which, by your own admission, you have no significant experience? If you can answer that question for yourself and for this board, you'll probably do okay in a 20-minute interview.

Are there any litigation opportunities for US lawyers in London, or is all the work transactional?

213 is a witless idiot. You must think that the brits will be more accepting of whatever personality or social affliction (s) you have. Wake up, they won't --- they won't accept you either. At least L2L has the common sense to keep his trips to tijuana brief in order to keep current with his PG County professional and social circles.

Would London firms (either US or UK) be interested in hiring a lawyer right out of law school who is only interested in working in the London office for a few years before transferring to their NY office?

boooooring. Can't we have an interesting post? This blog has been sucking lately.

$300K in London is less than $150K in buying power. Look at the exchange rates. Things cost the same in pounds as they do in dollars (i.e. 4 pounds for a grande Starbucks latte-- and I am speaking from recent experience, living there for two years) but the exchange rate is over $2 for every pound. So Cravath's allowance is still not a very good deal.

How much of that money is paid in taxes?

I've heard that there's a 15% tax to the US govt for citizens working abroad in addition to UK taxes. How bad are the UK taxes?

2:41 - keep in mind that law school debt is still in US dollars. that COLA is significant in that one can still live reasonably and also send a lot of those pounds back to put a dent in law school debt

2:46: Maybe, but living in London is still significantly more expensive than living in New York or San Francisco-- unless you want to live in a box with group showers somewhere in Zone 4.

The CWT Real Estate group sends 2 third years to London for six months every year if they want to.

what is the COLA at other firms?

Yes, living in London is more expensive that living in New York, but make sure you take into account the drop in the dollar. The cost of living has not risen dramatically, it's just that the cost of living indicators use NY (and thus the US dollar) as a starting point.

Most legal disputes in London, indeed in all of England, are settled by representatives of the Queen behind closed doors.

Also, my friend was once stuck on a life boat in English territorial waters and was eaten by his crew mates. They were convicted at trial but the conviction was overturned. It was bullshit.

Plus, the English haven't even perfected the technology of electricity. Most English get their electricity by harnesing erratic lightening bolts.

K&E's COLA is only $50K.

I've lived in London before (grad school and JYA) and my goal after law school is to move back. Is there a practice field that would be better to focus on? I'm still in the land of contracts-property-con law basics so I have time to make choices that would better my chances of getting in the door either at a London firm or a US firm that would ship me off to London.

Squire Sanders can send people to Prague or Kiev.....

DLA Piper has an excellent secondment program, whereby they send lawyers to work for three months, six months, or a year (or longer) in an international office.

They've begun a program for summer associates as well, where a summer would work 10 weeks in a US office and 2 weeks abroad. This year they sent summers to London, Hong Kong, and Beijing.

cleary does three-year rotations in many of its foreign offices, and summers can apply to spend 6 weeks overseas.

MoFo is the place to be to do Asia work, even litigation.

is COLA the same as ex-pat package?

3:39, Squire Sanders CAN send people to Prague or Kyiv, but does that mean they actually DO that? I think some partners from the Columbus office went to Prague for a hearing about a decade ago. And I don't think any associates went then, either.

Skadden London COLA is $55K. Shearman London COLA is $100K. Linklaters London COLA is $30K + favorable conversion rate.

It would be a great public service to compile a master list of COLAs. Unlike base salary there is no transparancy and the numbers vary wildly from firm to firm.

Cost of living in London is high - that's what the COLA is for - but not so as to be unlivable. If you want to live in Notting Hill, Kensington, etc., you'll pay prices that would make Manhattan blush - but I don't think that the Brits have caught onto the gentrification thing in the same way that people do in the States. So while in New York as soon as a formerly-grungy artists' neighborhood is discovered it's invaded by Rupert Murdoch and a bunch of, um, lawyers, driving prices through the roof, in London you can get a gorgeous apartment in the East End, within walking distance of work and surrounded by galleries and restaurants, for Brooklyn prices. Check out Shoreditch, Hoxton, Tower Hill. You can then sink your COLA into rent and still have an entire New York salary to spend on food, clothes, and paying down your (US$) loans. It's actually a pretty good deal.

Taxes aren't bad. I actually end up paying more in New York than I did in London: the US has a tax treaty with the UK, meaning that you only have to pay US taxes if your US _federal_ tax load would have exceeded what you paid to the UK. Figure ~35% total (of course, everything has 17.5% VAT).

As for practice area, I think pretty much all the Americans there do tax or finance. No litigation that I know of.

Bah. London's a hole.

What about Frankfurt/Munich/Düsseldorf/Berlin?

Or even Paris or Madrid?

Skadden Tokyo's COLA is $115k, which brings total comp (including bonus) up to roughly $305.

I think Skadden pays the highest COLA in Tokyo, and the Tokyo office has the highest COLA in the firm.

what is COLA in iraq?

body armor

Anyone know WilmerHale's policy on abroad?

Most firms have raised COLA pretty significantly recently, due to the weaker dollar, and London being a very hot market right now. Trying to encourage people to go I guess. So the numbers quoted above by various people could be pre-increase, hence the big disparity. Granted, Cravath's COLA will probably be at the very top end of the COLA scale, but I doubt the rest of the Vault 5 firms would be very far off this mark. But then, COLA figures are not as transparent as salary/bonus figures, so there could be a bigger disparity. In any case, $300k is still a crazy sum of money for a 1st year not in I-Banking.

1:50: Don't knock BIGTJLAW till you've tried it. I have a callback at Paco Guzman LLC next week (#1 in EMIGRATION law).

Is a legal recruiter the best way to get a job in London if you're with a firm that doesn't send associates overseas?

I think Latham pays a 50k COLA in London plus a somewhat favorable exchange rate for 75% of the base.

Is health care just handled by UK health service paid for by your UK taxes, or do you get health insurance like in US? Just curios.

Keep in mind that your law school debt is still in US dollars, that the US dollar is weakening and that the COLA is significant enough to allow one to live comfortably yet save some pounds to cancel your law school debt.

Truly, I think one would be foolish not to consider going to London.

2:55, you state that living in London is more expensive that New York or San Francisco, yet when I lived in London, one dollar could give me much more space and room in London than in NY...

not so fast.

Baker & McKenzie's "ATP" is rarely used to send US attorneys abroad. It is much more often used to bring foreign attys to the US offices for a few months.

Latham has they're own program for associates. This summer an associate from the Frankfurt office came to the Los Angeles office

I'm at a biglaw firm in Asia. Someone's previous comment about a couple year's practice stateside is generally true (unless you want to work abroad and never go back to the US).

If the firm's office is in place where English is not the local lingo, language skills are generally preferred. Similar to Baker's ATP, my firm will send foreign associates to their US offices for a tour. but they also do the same for us foreign lawyers. you don't have to come back (abroad) either. if you've had your fill of life overseas the firm is happy to take their pound of flesh from you back in the states.

2:02 wrote "I was told that I shouldn't be seduced by the excitement of living and working overseas straight out of law school because it's a bad career move. It's better, so I was told, to stay stateside for a couple years and develop some skills, expertise etc. in an American area of law before going overseas."

As a U.S. lawyer who worked in London for three years, I'm going to give some contrarian advice. If you really want to work in London, go as soon as you can. Don't feel that you need to put it off for three years, diligence everything, etc. Stop being so risk averse. Just go.

In your first few years of practice, you learn about the law, but you also make invaluable professional contacts that, in the long run, are even more important than your skill set. These contacts lead to good second and third jobs. Trouble is, these contacts can't work for you if you're wanting to move somewhere else in three years. There's enormous benefit to being on the ground where you want to be.

Remember, too, that in two or three years after graduation, you may not be in a position to move to London due to family reasons or what not. Go now.

If you're really worried about moving back to the U.S., bear in mind that in a decent economy, when lawyers are scarce, you'll find something. Does anyone really think that during a boom U.S. companies are going to turn away top-notch lawyers because they cut their teeth abroad? On the contrary, you'll be *more* marketable, not less.

If you are a US lawyer looking for jobs abroad, check out www.hg.org, they have offers for lawyers in Germany, Asia, etc. In my opinion, going abroad is worth it, but speaking the local lingo, if not in an English-speaking country, is a big asset, for legal work as well as privat life. And if you are still in law school and are interested in going to Europe, take classes in European Community law or Comparative law, maybe also Conflict of laws to get some basics of the Continental legal system.

I agree with 01:25. Also, they will ask you to sign on for a 2-3 year stint no matter how long you intend to go for, for UK tax reasons. If you want to stay for longer, great, but US firms don't usually expect you to stay longer than 2-3 years anyway (but they get really annoyed if you come to them after a year and whine about being homesick).

As for 7:25, hell no, you will have private health insurance, don't worry. That said, I use the NHS because there is a clinic on the ground floor of my block of flats, and I have had no complaints.

Let's get more posts on Hong Kong, Tokyo, Shanghai, Singapore. Bottom line: how hard is it for students at T-20 schools to get postings in east Asia right after school? Litigation possible?

If you are right out of law school, my guess is that you need a really convincing argument for the firm to send you to Asia, e.g. fluency or at least working knowledge in Mandarin or Cantonese, or some experience living in Asia, to demonstrate that you are going to be an asset right from the start. A friend of mine started to work in Shanghai right after passing the bar, but he has a Chinese gf and he speaks Chinese. Otherwise, midlevel to senior seem to be preferred.

Do any Toronto firms hire American law students? Does anyone know the process for an American graduate to practice in Canada?

A&O hires lawyers for the London, Hong Kong, and NY offices from top tier US law schools.

No litigation in HK or London.

Do any biglaw firms offer work abroad opportunities for staff too?

Are people in London working more hours than people in NYC? Sounds like Cravath London is busier than Cravath NY. In a small branch office, it is harder to spread around the work, so probably means the London associates are getting killed.

I know people in HK who have worked significantly more hours (avg 2500 billable) than when they were in NYC.

I worked at CSM London a few years ago, and they upped the COLA then because many attorneys were whining that when they came over, it was a better deal, and thus they were getting killed. The big issue with CSM London is that you either love it or hate it. Some folks love it so much they don't want to go back to NYC, others think NYC is the center of the universe (socially) and can't adjust to how business is done in Europe--more slowly, more busywork, more travel, more cultural barriers. The London CSM office is generally a happy place, with a lot less support than you get in NYC--less night secretaries, less duplicating, less conference room staff, etc., etc. Some of the Partners there are famous for the Friday 5pm bomb (oh, can you just look into [xyz matter that ruins your weekend]). The biggest issue is that the Partners are mixed right in with the associates--one in each corner, so there's NO hiding. It's a fishbowl--there's much more separation at CS&M New York. Therein lies the dilemma--make more money, advance your career, work REALLY REALLY hard, or stay in NYC....and also work REALLY REALLY hard. Tough decision. I, myself, love London, so would choose that any day...as with any London experience, slightly more adventurous expats are there, so better, more "fun" CS&M associates are there. If there is such a thing as a "fun" Cravather....