first

I don't understand the question. This sucks, Lat. Do another Miami thread.

Wachtell is where it's at. You don't work that much harder than at the other top five firms, but you get paid twice as much.

Interesting how these rankings have very little correlation to profitability...why don't profits per partner factor in here?

11:32--because prestige and profitability are two different words. Heck, they're even spelled differently! There are other lists that rank profitability.

Profits per partner do factor in. Not-so-subtle Cadwalder associate trolling.

11:28, your inability to understand the question - compare and contrast these five firms - explains why you're in a TTT like Miami.

Wachtell is different b/c they pay much more (and work you much more).

Cravath is different b/c you're placed under one partner for a rotation.

The other three are more interchangeable, except Davis says it's "nicer" than S&C or Skadden.

S&C has a higher proportion of a**holes than the other firms on this list.

Aaron Charney's lawsuit may be stupid, but it does shed light on how many d-bags are at 125 Broad Street.

1132:
Are you a partner at a V5 firm?
Not yet, but plan to stick it out for 8 years?

What does it matter to you then?

If you're really committed to it, apply to work at Vault.

Profits Per Associate ("PPA") is what matters to me.

The general prestige rankings matter less than what practice area you're interested in.

If you want to do M&A, go to Wachtell. If you want to do general commercial litigation, go to Cravath. If you want to do products liability, go to Skadden. Etc., etc.

11:35, how do you define a prestigious firm?

Skadden shares a building with Conde Nast. Enough said.

Pretending that there are truly differences between these 5 sweatshops is similar to pretending that your big law experience will be different than everyone elses (translation: miserable). Aside from salaries/bonuses/prestige, these places are all the same...sweatshops where you are treated like crap (save for the $$). The question is how much are you willing to sell your soul for?

Prestige is defined by perception, which is why the Vault rankings actually matter. They aren't subjective; they reflect how well-known and highly-regarded the firms are by the survey respondents.

There is a strong correlation with profits, which is why WLRK and CSM are at the top. But other factors, such as how hard it is to get a job offer, also come into play (which is why Davis is high on the list, even though PPP is under $2 million).

Wachtell: In a league of its own. It's like YLS; if you get in, go there.

Cravath: The Wachtell of yesterday. Now bitter that it's number 2.

S&C: Old school, lots of prestige, but miserable work environment. See Charney.

Skadden: Massive. You'll really be a cog in a corporate wheel. Also very fratty, which has its pluses: they know how to party.

DPW: Very nice, very plain. No screamers, but the tradeoff is loads of passive aggression.

Bottom line: they're all the same at heart and your experience will vary greatly depending on who you work with.

11:46 good post

S&C is not nearly as miserable as people claim. I personally love working here, am not a d*bag, and know many great associates as well as partners to work with. Of course, you can get as unlucky as at any other BigLaw, and get stuck with horrible people, but I doubt it's more likely here than elsewhere.

I hear Cravath gets discounts at Tiffany!! :)

Dude, Tiffany only has like one album, and it's only 9.99 at iTunes. You'd think that you could afford that without a discount.

Btw S&C also recently raised to 16 weeks of paid maternity leave. We also have an on-site gym that is practically free (at around $16/month it is cheaper than what most people with "free" or "discounted" gym memberships end up paying in taxes)

S&C needs to improve its PR I believe.

WACHTELL = FROYO WITH NO POPCORN.
damn you marty, damn you.
also bonus points to the baby-office inhabitant next to HW

As far as one minor perk goes:

Reiumbursement of Broker's Fee:

Wachtell (unclear, but you have to assume at least $3500)
Cravath pays $3500 toward a broker's fee
S&C pays $3500 toward a broker's fee
Skadden (unclear)
DPW pays $2500 toward a broker's fee

Does anyone have any info on Skadden in other offices besides NYC? Say Chicago? Is the culture similar?

Damn it Lat! Is this a thread meant specifically to make me feel like shit? Let's talk about the firms that even Loyola students in the top 10% can't get.

Cadwalader has high profits per partner but is a shitty place to work

I agree with 11:28. Lat, find a way to keep the past city recruiting threads current. They were very helpful, but if you didn't see them on the day they went up, you were screwed.

11:54 -- don't get too excited. A&B also offers a Tiffany discount and it's the cheapest firm on earth.

I think that all this thread does is provide an otherwise lacking forum for toolsheds to talk about their "prestigious" firms with other toolsheds from these "prestigious" firms, i.e., the only other people who actually care.

Seriously, though, what is the difference between DPW and Simpson? Or Skadden and Latham? I mean, really, who cares?

Has the information in the city recruiting threads changed that drastically in the last 2-3 weeks?

12:08 (2) -- that's just this thread. I'm sure that when Lat gets to the lower ranked firms, these threads will also be a good forum for d-bags from higher ranked firms to insult the location and PPP/business prospects of the less prestigious firms.

My perception of Skadden Chicago is that it is hard working with little or no personality. Most of the attorneys that I have met from that office seem pleasant enough, but I can't say what it is like to work there.

L2L:

Word.

I agree with 12:08. This seems like "we don't get enough attention and distinction, so let's talk about how great we are, so that we can start to believe it, too!"

The "prestige" you are talking about here is really just these firms holding themselves out as better and people sucking it up--their work is not more impressive than any other "top" firm.

If you're looking for discussion of law firms in specific cities, why not just go to Greedy Associates or Infirmation?

12:08, I can tell you a difference between Skadden and Latham. Skadden pays a market-rate clerkship bonus.

associates and law students comparing v5 firms is roughly equivilant to slaves on a slave ship talking about who has the nice chains.

Simpson Thacher is certainly in the same catergory as these others. Why not do Top 6 instead of Top 5? It's like doing the Top 13 instead of the Top 14 law schools.

Lat, I don't really agree that there is a need to keep the city threads updated, but I do miss the recent comments list on the left side of the main ATL page. If people can see recent comments, then if someone wants to add a question or comment to one of the city threads, it won't be as likely to get lost in the shuffle. Just a thought.

If money = prestige then good mortgage brokers and top real estate agents would be more prestigious than associates at Vault 1-5

"Simpson Thacher is certainly in the same catergory as these others. Why not do Top 6 instead of Top 5? It's like doing the Top 13 instead of the Top 14 law schools."

GULC students can't get V6 anyway, so that's not a bad idea.

S&C

Bar Exam: two nights hotel of your choice (3 for CA), "reasonable" meals, flight to and from bar exam. Flight is by the firm; hotel booked by firm, paid for by you and then reimbursed. Covers Bar/Bri, Bar Exam Fee, PMBR (direct bill), and Marino Essay Course.

Salary Advance: $7k in May of graduation, $3k more post start date.

Banking: free of service charge checking at Citigroup Private Bank. Apparently involves DD of pay, credit cards sans annual fee, home loan stuff.

Downpayment assistance: firm will cosign downpayment loan for initial primary residence after 6 mo, up to $75k (may be $100k now). Can defer principal payment 1 yr, fixed interest of Citibank's base rate +1%.

Moving: cost of packing, moving, unpacking of your household from home to firm's city. 90 days short term storage and move from storage to firm's city also covered. Either reimbursed or through selected direct bill movers. Will also pay for your flight to firm's city, or, 20c per mile for car plus hotel and meal expenses alon the way (not to exceed cost of air travel).

Brokers: some brokers will do 12% fee for S&C NYC; one broker will direct bill S&C for up to $3.5k; others charge only 1 mo rent as fee.

Health: Passive PPO, POSOA, EEP (like a HMO). Offered as individual, 1+1, or, family. Separate drug benefits via Express-Scrips. Can set aside $5k pre-tax for reimbursment for health expenses not covered by insurance; use it or lose it rules. Dental limited to $2k per year in network, $1.5k per year out of network per person.

401K: can contribute up to 100% of comp pre-tax.

Transit: pre-tax allowed of $105/mo for subway and $200/mo parking.

Matching law school gifts: up to $500 per year.

1227, way to butcher a solid Talib Kweli line:

"These cats sip champagne and toast death and pain like slaves on a ship talkin' 'bout who got the flyest chains."

12:35, am I missing something about 401k. Aren't there limits like 25% of pay or 15k?

The "prestige" you are talking about here is really just these firms holding themselves out as better and people sucking it up--their work is not more impressive than any other "top" firm.

Agreed- What they don't tell you is that the bulk of their day is spent scrutinzing form documents. A trained monkey can do that. It comes down to the fact that they have huge corporate clients that are easily bilked.. No individual in their right mind would pay $400 an hour for a document monkey- only corporate america is capable of that kind of inneficiency.

Nice post, 12:35.

Can some people post comparable info for each of the other four firms?

12:46, a 401(k) plan usually has a contribution limitation of anywhere from 15% to 100% of an employee's comp, but most associates would cap out at the IRS limit well before they would hit the percentage limit. In other words, the higher percentage limitation only helps employees who don't make very much money.

I think that 12:35 means that you can contribute up to 100% of compensation pre-tax to your 401(k) if you make $15,500 or less.

Whenever I read about the perks of these sweatshops being touted as a measure for comparison, I always ask why? And I don't mean why as in why do you spoiled prestige whores need a free gym membership when you're making $160k per year, but rather why does a firm need to provide these perks to convince you that their $160k/year is greener than some other firm's $160k/year?

And I think that the answer should be quite clear (particularly if you're bright enough to land an offer from a v5)...the perks are designed to distract you; to have you so giddy with greed that you forget about how awful billing 3000+ hours per year for some arrogant partner can be; to forget about staying at work past midnight doing document review because you get to take a car service home and order some fancy sushi on the firm's dime.

So I guess the moral of this is that if you're smart enough to get a v5 offer, be smart enough to look beyond the perks. Don't forget that without them, you can still be putting $160k/year in your pocket from a place that might treat you better.

Which is why I'm a huge fan of the mid-size and non-New York-based firms and offices that do more than just service financial sector giants (at least in litigation). $400 for a doc monkey is definitely a rip, but $400 for an appellate, entertainment, or IP litigator is a bit better of a deal.

Some kinda-empirical data to back that up - below is a Top 10 for associate satisfaction for New York offices with more than 125 attorneys (culled from AMLAW NY-office specific rankings):

(1) Gibson, Dunn (160)
(2) Goodwin Procter (142)
(3) Clifford Chance (308)
(4) Orrick (205)
(5) Morrison & Foerster (161)
(6) McDermott Will (153)
(7) Patterson Belknap (192)
(8) Akin Gump (163)
(9) Kirkland & Ellis (258)
(10) Latham & Watkins (332)

Notice how (1) These offices are all in the low-300s and below in terms of number of lawyers in the office, with most in the 150-200 range; (2) Though there are a number of huge firms here, not one of these is a New York-based firm; and (3) none of these are "Vault 5" (and none are Vault 10 except Latham and Kirkland at the bottom).

Biglaw--

No, their work probably isn't significantly more impressive than any other 'top' firm. But prestige means if you leave one of these firms after 3 years, you have your pick of jobs to take, whether in-house, govt., whatever. So this could be a useful thread for discussing which place people want to spend those 3-4 years right out of law school, if there weren't so many twits complaining every other comment about how this doesn't interest them.
If you're not interested, then don't read. Do your lives suck so much that you have to read every bit of every thread on ATL, even the ones you claim don't interest you?

If we could mirror 12:35's post for the other vault 49 firms (preferably in order), and place it all in one location without L2L's whining interspersing the facts, this blog will instantaneously become the number one research tool for OCI (not to mention laterals). LAT - MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!

Just want to echo 12:50's request that people post a little more re benefits at the other 4 along the lines of 12:35. His is one of the few useful posts that actually goes to the subject of the thread instead of just bashing the whole idea (hey, if you don't care, don't read it, as 1:06 points out)

Correction: Patterson Belknap is NY-based. But they have cute little practice areas like "Art & Museum Law," so I grant them honorary small-town status.

"No, their work probably isn't significantly more impressive than any other 'top' firm. But prestige means if you leave one of these firms after 3 years, you have your pick of jobs to take, whether in-house, govt., whatever."

I seriously, seriously doubt this is true. Nobody waltzes into highly desireable nonprofit or government or in house jobs -- you have to be well positioned for them. Having Cravath or whatever on your resume isn't sufficient. It may help, but it's no guarantee. As you progress in your career, having prestigious names on your resume loses its power. It may be enough to have the name "Yale" on your resume to get you into a top-5 firm, but from there on out you're going to, gasp, have to rely on your work, talent and your ability to forge relationships.

T14 2L:

Put your research skills to work and YOU make it happen. Lat is not your research monkey.

"But prestige means if you leave one of these firms after 3 years, you have your pick of jobs to take, whether in-house, govt., whatever."

I seriously doubt this is true. Nobody waltzes into a government, inhouse or nonprofit job just because they have Cravath on their resume. You have to position yourself. As you move up in your career, prestigious names alone have diminished power. "Yale" on your resume might have been enough to get you in the door at Cravath, but from there on out you have to rely on your talent, work ethic, and ability to forge relationships.

At the beginning, prestige is a proxy for ability. Once you've been working for a while, you're actually going to have to establish that you do indeed have ability. That's why, in fact, a smart baby lawyer would chose a firm where they get to develop themselves as a lawyer, not the most prestigious firm.

I like S&C too. Its gotten some bad PR on this site this year, but my experience has been really good and d-bag free.

S&C pseudo-perk:

The chance that you will be asked to cancel your vacation during the first 2 years is close to nil, as associates will always cover for each other. I know that this is not the case at some of the other firms on the list.

T14 2L:

My whining has been a greater research tool for a lot of law students than the the sweet home mortgage rate Simpson gives you or the number of rolexes Skadden gives you, or whatever.

(Btw, have you heard of the nalpdirectory? OMG! It even has non-Vault firms!)

ERISA Geek - "In other words, the higher percentage limitation only helps employees who don't make very much money."

It also helps those who make a lot and want to max out earlier. If you make 160/year with a 25% limit the most you can contribute to 401(k) is 3,333/month with a max out in May. If the limit is 100% you can contribute 13,333 in January and 2167 in February and be done.

Not saying this is a sound financial plan (there are pro/con arguments to maxxing out early) but it is an option when 100% contributions are permitted.

Tax Geek, thanks for showing me up by out-geeking me :)

1:20 pm -

Well, yes and no. I agree with the general premise -- going to a V5 firm doesn't just land you a plush or competitive job by any means. (See all the V5 people who get rejected for top clerkships or AUSA positions).

That said, a "prestigious" name will often at least get you in the door, especially in the financial world. Many people recognize the names of the V5 law firms but don't recognize the names of the non-NY based firms. It's just the way it is.

It all depends on where you want to go after your biglaw stint. If you're simply hoping to go in-house at a bank, I'd say a more "prestigious" firm is a better bet (simply because the bank knows the firm and knows you probably worked hard there).

Are there any former clerks out there who recently started working and who can tell me/us what that 50k bonus comes to after taxes? Thanks!

Also, having 100% contribution lets you max out your first year of working. If you start in October you only have 3 months to contribute to your 401k for that year. If you are limited to contributing 25%, you can only contribute $10,000 to your 401k, when the max is $15,500.

That means even if you have enough money to live on in savings and would prefer to put your whole paycheck into your 401k to get the maximum tax benefits for that year, you can't because your employer doesn't let you contribute enough to your 401k.

Clerk, the 50K gonna go down to something around 30K once Uncle Sam has taken his share...

And to those who think Watchell is superior to Cravath - I just have one thing to say having worked at both of them - its Cravath or bust, b*tches!

Clerk, the 50K gonna go down to something around 30K once Uncle Sam has taken his share...

And to those who think Watchell is superior to Cravath - I just have one thing to say having worked at both of them - its Cravath or bust, b*tches!

I don't understand the Vault rankings - too squishy for me. The most objective ranking for the purposes of these kinds of discussions would be the AMLaw 100 simply weighted with a single general associate satisfaction score. Having filled out the Vault survey several times, there is a TON of BS in there - the whole "prestige" rankings of peer firms is really dumb if you ask me and has no empirical basis. I can just willy-nilly rate another firms "prestige" based on anything I want (i.e. I know nothing about the place, but my cousin's ex-girlfriend works there, and she sucks so they must too). If you really choose the place you work at based on its Vault ranking you are a D-BAG.

1:58/1:59, aka "Ricky Tan", I call BS re your claim to working at both Wachtell and Cravath. Both firms have a policy of not hiring laterals (in actuality, each firm does take an occasional lateral, though it's exceedingly rare). The only other possibilities are that you summered at both, or summered at one but instead became an associate at the other. If either of those scenarios are true (which is doubtful), that still doesn't really qualify as working at both.

401k-er, if a person has enough money to live on savings, then that's a great idea. But, I always think it's kind of odd when new associates with tons of debt (especially high interest debt) are obsessed with maxing out their 401(k)s and are paying way more money in interest than they are saving in taxes. Not that it's a bad idea to put the money away, if they would spend it instead of paying off debt, but I guess my point is that many young lawyers don't make smart economic decisions.

Wachtell does not pay a broker's fee

Vault sucks is right about the prestige rankings. I always give a low rating to my old firm just because I hate it so much.

2:08

You are wrong in regards to Wachtell not taking lateral associates. Wachtell has recently hired a couple of banking and tax associates away from Cravath.

I personally don't know whether Cravath is better or not, but for me personally, Cravath was a better fit with the whole "Cravath System."

OK. Which firms will now start laying off associates as business starts slowing? (It obviously will beacuse of the credit/housing mess.)

Re: Vacation - At DPW, I was always able to take my vacation time if I scheduled vacations of 1 week or more. At least in corporate, they didn't encourage taking just one day off here or there (harder to find coverage), but assigning coordinators or partners almost always arranged for coverage on schedule 1 week+ vacations. Cancelled extended vacations were rare.

Tax Geek - "Not saying this is a sound financial plan (there are pro/con arguments to maxxing out early) but it is an option when 100% contributions are permitted."

Maxing out early is something I never thought of doing (am only a first year assoc which means I didn't think of doing it this year). From my perspective, if you don't need the cash on hand, what would a con of not maxing out early be? I would think maxing out early and then getting a full year of returns on the 15k would be better than gradually building to the 15k by mid December... So what are the cons that I am missing here???

Re: Vacation - At DPW, I was always able to take my vacation time if I scheduled vacations of 1 week or more. At least in corporate, they didn't encourage taking just one day off here or there (harder to find coverage), but assigning coordinators or partners almost always arranged for coverage on schedule 1 week+ vacations. Cancelled extended vacations were rare.

Some comments on this thread are just plain.

First, stop convincing yourself that the V6 people work an awful lot more than all other law firms. Give me a break - yes, Wachtell and Cravath associates may have markedly higher hours, but do you really believe (honest now) that you are going to work 15 hours less per week at White & Case or Shearman, compared to DPW/Simpson?!

And secondly, if you really think there is absolutely no difference between the training, experience, clients and post-Biglaw resume value at DPW/Simpson and say a V30 firm, then you are probably misguided about this whole line of business anyway.

FYI, I am in one of these firms, and my hours are not higher than any of my friends at other lower-ranked firms. And yes, the legal recruiters ring non-stop on a daily basis (yes, DAILY) - heck, clients have asked some people at my firm to leave and join them.

Tax Geek - "Not saying this is a sound financial plan (there are pro/con arguments to maxxing out early) but it is an option when 100% contributions are permitted."

Maxing out early is something I never thought of doing (am only a first year assoc which means I didn't think of doing it this year). From my perspective, if you don't need the cash on hand, what would a con of not maxing out early be? I would think maxing out early and then getting a full year of returns on the 15k would be better than gradually building to the 15k by mid December... So what are the cons that I am missing here???

2:15 (2) - Don't be a moron, there are no Vault firms that did any work anywhere close to the "credit/housing mess" It will have little or no effect on the volume of CMBS deals and in fact will make more work for bankruptcy types involved in cleaning up after subprime lenders. Straight-ahead portfolio/conduit RE lending is still steady. The so called "credit-crunch" that is expected will have little affect on the deals that V100 firms do and the level of clients they represent.

Boring day. http://www.styleweekly.com/article.asp?idarticle=9735

Anony-mouse

I got an offer from Skadden. Where'd you end up?

OK. Which firms will now start laying off associates as business starts slowing? (It obviously will beacuse of the credit/housing mess.)

None of these five firms. They're all on sound financial footing. Some of them also have good countercyclical practices (litigation, bankruptcy).

Will PPP go down? Sure. But no layoffs. That's Bush league.

Not a tax geek - There are those who argue that balanced investing throughout the year is better than putting it all in upfront. Case in point - anyone who has maxxed out their 401k for this year in June. With the recent skid in the Dow their contributions are likely worth less than 15,500. Of course you could have a phenomenal January and be flat the rest of the year and then it would have paid to front load.

I don't have the answers (you'll have to speak to Financial Planner Geek for that ) but I can see both arguments.

legal recruiters ring non-stop on a daily basis (yes, DAILY) - heck, clients have asked some people at my firm to leave and join them.

2:18, if you think that's an experience unique to v5 firms, it's you who are completely misguided about this business.

Atlanta to $35k!

cadwalader nyc or large firm in smaller market?

More S&C (NYC office):

Gym: laundry service built into minor monthly fee; masseuse/personal trainer extra; fruit/juice fridge is free; machines and free weights are decent, but punching bag sucks.

26th floor break room: leather couches/chairs; flat screen plasma TV; healthy snacks/fruit/candy/soda/juice/SmartWater all free; access controlled, so no support staff. Nice for catching the sporting events you'll never leave to see in person.

Car/dinner service: past 7pm order dinner to your office; past 8pm order car home.

I bet the Sherman& Sterling associates are shaking in their pants. They'll be the 1st to be axed in the coming belt tightening. (remember, 2001!)

anon 2:34,
So which firms will lay off? At what point on the vault does Bush Leauge start?

Anony Mouse (a.k.a Douche)

I got offers from Cravath, DP, Skadden and S&C - I think most NY firms would take gtown over half of the t14 - because we are not tools. You must go to UofC or Cornell.

Dick and Balls, LLP

Well, I don't really want to work in a big firm anyway. I think I'm going to work as a Lexis rep for a year or so before I decide which job to take.

See, GULC sucks!

401k-er, if a person has enough money to live on savings, then that's a great idea. But, I always think it's kind of odd when new associates with tons of debt (especially high interest debt) are obsessed with maxing out their 401(k)s and are paying way more money in interest than they are saving in taxes. Not that it's a bad idea to put the money away, if they would spend it instead of paying off debt, but I guess my point is that many young lawyers don't make smart economic decisions.

Something I have always wrestled with myself- I came to the conclusion that its probably better to get rid of the debt ASAP and not put those dollars into a 401 K now.

Lat- Interview a financial guy and get him to tell us what to do..

3:18 -- unless you are a tax geek like me who wants to run calculations based on tax bracket, expected income, etc., just look at how much debt you have and what interest rate you are paying to get a rough idea. For example, there was a first year at my firm who owed thousands of dollars on a credit card at 19% interest, but was proud of himself for screwing the government out of a few tax dollars by maxing out his 401(k). Most of my loans were federal loans at a low interest rate, so it was kind of a wash for me to do one thing versus the other, but for me, there was also a psychological benefit to getting my loans under control before I started worrying about retirement.

I understand the benefit of the tax break + tax-free earnings, but if one spends and saves wisely off the first few years of Biglaw comp, it doesn't seem that hard to catch up later on when the loans are paid off. A financial advisor might wince at that advice, but it has worked just fine for me. And I'm a true dinosaur because I was able to pay off my loans after only a few years living in DC and making only $125k starting salary!

PSA: Anyone advocating cravath over wachtell did not get a wachtell offer. I got both and (of course) picked wachtell. No one who got both a wachtell offer and a cravath offer this past summer picked the cravath offer. Anyone seriously considering cravath over wachtell because of litigation should keep two things in mind: First, wachtell litigation is damn good, definitely as good as cravath, but cravath just doesn't have such a badass corporate practice to tower over it. Second, wachtell pays A HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE. A HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS. $100,000. ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS MORE. Remember that $30,000 bonus cravath associates got? Wachtell associates' bonus was TEN TIMES HIGHER. TEN TIMES HIGHER. Wachtell associates got TEN TIMES YOUR BONUS. Your bonus was TEN PERCENT of a wachtell associate's bonus, cravath associates. TEN PERCENT.

Can anyone speak to the difficulty of getting these firms from YLS? Obviously Yale students have a "good" shot at most firms, but since these are such top firms I was wondering if they are still a far reach even for a Yalie. If a YLS person interviewed at all 5, would they be likely to get at least 1? Also, how do these firms distinguish between Yale students since there are no clear grades on the transcripts?

Wachtellian, I'm going to have to tell Herb and Marty that they hired a moron. 100,000 is only slightly 3 times more than 30,000. I certainly hope you're not working in corporate over there.

10 times $30,000 is $300,000. Am I mistaken, because I am no ERISA or tax geek, but dude said he got a $100,000 bonus. Either dude doesnt work for Wachtel or is a complete idiot.

meant to say 100,000 is only slightly more than 3 times 30,000

GULC 3L's:

I'm sure you were top 10% and LR.

Congrats on winning the rat-race!

YLS 0L: Yale has grades and law journal membership, but they're not looked at as closely as other schools. Most firms want to see at least one "H" on your transcript when you interview as a 2L (if they even request a transcript), a few firms want to see more than that.

With the exception of Wachtell, you can probably get an offer from at least one or more of the V5 if you are a nice person who seems excited about working at the firm.

seriously, what were the bonuses at wachtell this past year? i don't think they were 300k as wachtellian has suggested (10 x 30K = 300K). Is wachtellian just really bad at math or just pretending to work there??? L2L, is that you pretending you work at wachtell???

want to work for wachtell? consider that folks like wachtellian work there. res ipsa loquitur.

Count me as another GULC grad (non-LR by the way) who was hired at DPW with offers from STB, Skadden, etc. DPW is by far the nicest (esp. the cafeteria), but come on, life is miserable at all of them. I took off after 3 years, went back to my hometown and am infinitely happier even though my salary sucks.

One other benefit to getting your entire 401k contribution of $15,500 out of the way early in the year is that you can coordinate the end of paying into Social Security (~ first $99,000 of income) with the end of paying into your 401k.

For me both happened in June of this year. I started getting much larger paychecks at this time because SS and 401k deductions were not coming out (and notwithstanding the slightly higher amount on which I paid other taxes).

Because my paycheck is higher now, I have access to more cash, which I can now invest back into the market because it's down 10% over the last month.

disagree, 4:18 YLS 3L. without at least one H on your first year transcript, kiss V10 goodbye.

I did not have a single H on my transcript after first year, and got offers from several V10 firms, including two V5...

why aren't W&C and covington on this list?

because they ranked lower than 5, genius

The great thing about Skadden is that they're the least selective firm in the V15.

Skadden is like Bear, Stearns. They look for poor people who are driven to succeed, and who don't mind selling their souls and becomming desk slaves. Joe Flohm, Holla Atcha Boy!!!

Im clerking in the bankruptcy court and want to practice in boston after my year is up...when do i start applying? any suggestions for bankruptcy firms in boston? anyone know anyone looking to hire?
thanks

Im clerking in the bankruptcy court and want to practice in boston after my year is up...when do i start applying? any suggestions for bankruptcy firms in boston? anyone know anyone looking to hire?
thanks

The con of maxing out your 401(k) in the first month or so is exactly as Tax Geek said - you buy in certain sectors during a really narrow point in time - meaning that you could buy at the top of the market. Financial planners will tell you average your investment over the year to spread out the risks - this is "dollar cost averaging".

Of course, you should be saving far more than your measly $15,500 401(k) money, so also have other money taken out in even intervals throughout the year (direct withdrawal is easiest) for other investments and consider diversifying the portfolio. Maxing the 401(k) early doesn't probably put you ahead of investing as much as you can equally throughout the year. But, as was said before, pay off high interest debts as soon as you can.

Once you max out SS tax, put that extra monthly amount from your paycheck into investments, or at least a 5%+ online savings account while you decide how to treat yourself or invest more.

Lawyers so often are really bad at saving. Not many of us will make Biglaw partner, and I, for one, plan to retire early.

6:51 - Joe FLOM, thank you.

In case it isn't obvious (unfortunately, I think to many lawyers it is not), it's a good idea to remain at the same standard of living when you get a raise every year and put all of the extra money into savings. Particularly now that most first years are starting out at $160k, you will be living the good life without the extra money. Sometimes this isn't even an issue because when FICA tax picks up again after the first of the year, it is often more than your new raise after tax. Point being, don't run out and spend your new raise before the $$ is in your pocket.

I am utterly in love with Uncle Joe.

Does it really fucking matter what firm you work at? Not really.

Really, WHO CARES.

You will care from August to Thanksgiving your 2L year. Thereafter, you and everyone else will promptly stop giving a shit.

4:18 - "H" or not, Yale is still pass-fail, douche-bag. Try competing for grades like everyone else.

No, 9:19, there is a big difference between an "H" and a "P" at Yale. It is a myth that YLS is pass-fail.

Grades do matter. For example, if you want to have a shot at a Supreme Court clerkship coming from Yale, you should have at least 2/3s Hs (unless you are a Rhodes Scholar).

9:36: That's not quite the same as competing for grades with a serious curve. I know that the students at Yale are such that they don't need to prove their mettle grade-wise, but grades mattering for a SC clerkship isn't analogous to competing for a discrete number of As. Grades my matter, but may a professor give out as many Hs as he or she would like?

Professors at YLS are limited to giving H to the top 10% of their students in any given class. That said, straight Ps will get you almost any firm job and quite possibly a district court clerkship. So yeah, it's nothing like competing for As at Georgetown (if the comments are to be believed).

my point about covington and w&c was that they're so much more selective than the scrapheap that is skadden

lol, i love oci season. Everyone gets jealous about who's at what firm and all the law reviewers are jealous of the guy who already has a job at cravath and didn't have to do OCI. I think we should all just pick firms we think we'll be happy at and not complain about our 160k plus bonus.

The "women at V5" all had better grades than you, 12:47, so don't worry about it.

What sort of exit strategies would you suggest for a V10 NYC litigation associate, class of 2003 who's never actually been to court?

I know two women who left Cravath in under 2 years because of its sweatshop-like environment. For what it's worth.

Didn't Cravath score very poorly on that recent American Lawyer associate satisfaction survey?

Another reason, not yet mentioned, for contributing to your 401(k): employer match.

Btw, I've always figured that "maxing out your 401(k) [contributions]" referred to contributing the maximum in a year. I can think of no good reason to defer the whole amount in the first couple months. . .

--8:35

Even the secretaries, paraleGALS & "support" staff?

Jimmie, do you know whether any of these firms (or other Biglaw firms) offer an employer match for their 401(k) plans? That's fairly rare for Biglaw firms.

There was an open thread a while back on 401(k) and retirement benefits. It shouldn't be hard to find in the ATL archives.

YLS profs are instructed to give H's to 30-40% of each class. I have this from a very reliable source. Grades matter, and top firms know how to interpret a YLS transcript. hth.

I don't know what "Wachtellian" was smoking, or if he's really an associate here (I doubt it), but we did get a bonus equal to or greater than 100% of our base pay. That made for a $150-155k bonus for first-years, which is approximately five times greater and $120k more than what Cravath associates received. So CSM's first-year bonus was about 20% of WLRK's.

1:44, they put in a limit at 30% H's for exam-based classes. Some profs use that 30% number, others give substantially less than 30% H's (like Ellickson for property).

Firms generally know how to read transcripts (they only have one semester to read), but clerkships are a lot tougher. Usually it's a Yale clerk who looks at the YLS applicants' transcript and can tell the judge if someone got good grades from tough professors, or if someone took mostly paper-writing classes where there's no limit on the number of H's given out.

In which universe is Skadden more prestigious than DPW?

Can someone explain the advantages and the mystery surrounding the "Cravath System?"

I'm a bit late here, but the "Cravath system" is just the idea that instead of litigating on Monday, doing securities on Tuesday, trusts and estates on wednesday, M&A on Thursday, and syndicated lending on Friday you ought to focus in one area at a time and then do a hard and fast "rotation."

Many firms have "rotations" but Cravath's is much more structured and fixed. In litigation, you rotate among partners, and partners don't specialize in areas as they do in other firms. So for the 1-2 years you work for that partner and whatever cases he or she has, and then you rotate to some other partner and do their cases.

For corporate, you are placed in a "partnership group" in one of the major practice areas, and then you do the work of those partners. So the idea is say you begin in securities you will do debt and equity offerings for the 1-1/2 years until you rotate, and then you will stop doing that and become a banking associate or M&A associate, and will work on those kinds of deals. You don't "specialize" until you become a partner (or leave).

In contrast, at most other firms (though I can't speak for all) you begin your career as a kind of generalist and take assignments from a mix of partners, by sometime around a year or so at a firm you are a capital markets, or M&A guy, or something along those lines. And then you just do that.

Cravath believes - and I tend to agree, though others may not - that the hard and fast rotations force you to learn more (and faster), force you to take on more responsibility as a young associate, and allows you to see all the various sides of deals (M&A, and the various financings), whereas in another system you begin with the appearance of "choice" but quickly get typecasted. Others may disagree.

Before anyone says anything to the contrary, this is a pretty obviously non-partner friendly way to run your organization, because instead of having senior associates with five or six years of experience working for them, they have senior associates who have 5 months working for them and 2-4 years working for some other partners doing something else, and junior associates with 12 months of experience working for them but of little else.

I can't speak to much regarding how it works for litigation except that it is truly dependent on who your partner is and transitioning to and from the kinds of big, long-term, and document heavy cases Cravath (and all these firms) tend to do can be difficult. But people I've spoken to have found it very rewarding to sort of travel from mentor to mentor. But if you get stuck with the wrong guy...

You forgot that the other part of the Cravath system is the golden ring of partnership being dangled in front of people for years before it is snatched away by "the talk". However, now almost all big law firms incorporate that part of the system.

what is "the talk" ?

Avoid Wachtell like the plague. There is too much internal dissention as big name partners have started to struggle with the post-Marty and Herb era. Deals and percentages are where the firm makes its loads, not billables. Litigation is worthless without the faces attracting the top corporate backroom players. The firm has some of the top talent in the field, but will not be able to overcome the retirements of its irreplaceable faces.

what do people know about Skadden's IP group?

DPW is by far the best of those options if your only intention is to get in, pay of some loans, and get out into a job you don't hate as much.

Trust me... unless you need to build up a small fortune for the sake of financing a run for Congress or starting up your own business, the money at Wachtell is not worth it. And sure, DPW is passive aggressive as hell, and no one will ever tell you what they really think of your work, but if you aren't in it to make partner who cares?

By all means, if you're gunning for partner some day, pick a firm with a more open culture. But if you just want to put in your 2-3 years in a firm where you'll be treated pleasantly, then DPW can't be beat.

Another DPW bonus? No face time. It feels to me like pretty much everyone is out the door by 7 or so, and no one comes in on the weekends. Sure, there's lots of working from home going on, but if I'm going to spend 1000 hours doing mindless doc review as a first year lawyer, being able to have 200 of those hours take place when I'm at home in my pajamas watching the Food Network is a nice perk.