And all the Angels Rejoiced!

GONZO IS GONE!!!

P.S., We really are getting to the bottom of the bucket with these firms. Re-do 1-10!

I'm sure the vocal Atlanta associates will come through with comments on their beloved Alston & Bird.

I hear that A&B's compensation scheme in Atlanta is incredible, truly the best in all of biglaw. Could someone confirm?

I'm a 6th year at A&B and I can tell you that every Christmas, the Firm retains a dozen Powell Goldstein partners (they need the cash) and every A&B associate who hit his or her hours gets to punch the PG partner in the groin twice.

See, this is where you really start getting to the differences in firms. The top 60 are same old same old. A&B is tops!

A&B is one of Fortune's best places to work!!!*

*for support staff

Bingham DC recently moved offices earlier this summer. This might explain some of the comments from your "tipster" about the condition of the office. Also, on the "consildation" comment, they merged with Swidler a little over a year ago....

I can tell you there has been a real mass exodus from Atlanta firms to jump over to A&B because of their awesome new salary structure. Anybody who is anyone has sent over their resume trying to get in. A&B is literally beating people away with a stick.

Can someone explain to me how A&B's compensation structure is so much better than the rest of the ATL market?

A&B Rocks,

I believe that last sentence should read "A&B is literally beating people with a stick."

10:49,

There is definitely some of that going on as well. See, A&B has everything!

Does it matter whether they're beating people away with a stick or just beating them with a stick? The point is, they're literally actually inflicting physical pain on people by striking their bodies with a piece of wood! Whether it's prospective hires or just underpaid associates, that's HR management!

they moved over a year ago and merged with swiddler a while before that. The timing seemed odd.

10:49(1):

You don't come around these parts very often, do you?

Those A&B posts are by A&B marketing trolls....

Go away.

In March of this year (roughly a year after the merger), Swidler attorneys moved into a new (renovated) office space with Bingham. Bingham coordinates most, if not all, staff support positions out of the Boston office. Gotta pay for those associate pay increases some way!

Anyone have any info/opinions on Heller? Especially the offices on the West Coast?

Can anyone confirm the rumor that Heller didn't bump up summer pay to the first year prorated amount?

Heller not only paid all of my bar-associated stuff (which i suppose is standard), but also paid for a patent bar review course and that bar, and dished a $12,500 stipend. It's really not so bad for ten weeks' work.

Never worked for Heller myself, but I've sat across the table from them in deals, and have always been impressed. Competent (not a given in corporate work, unfortunately) and they seem like good guys.

anything about the Sonnenschein Kansas City Office? I have an interview with them.

I'm interviewing with A&B for the East Coast - should I be concerned about their love for their ATL office?

Can someone please tell me about Heller Erhman. More specifically, Heller's Seattle office. What is it like? How's the work, QOL? How are the partners, and what are the partnership prospects like?

Anything would be appreciated.

I know nothing about Sonnenschein. What's their deal? Are they corporate spcecialists, litigators or do they do everything adequately but not spectacularly? I'm just wondering.

Heller is apparently wonderful for women. Based on discussions with some of my friends, Heller has a very progressive part time policy that allows for having/raising kids. Something to consider . . .

Scott Turow is at Sonnenschein. He may be the most famous thing about the firm.

No matter what the "tipster" thinks, Bingham DC is an awesome place for associates. Part of the reason so much of the support staff was let go is because Swidler's support staff sucked (their secretaries were particularly awful) and the centralized support staff in Boston is better trained and more competent. There is tons of empty space to allow the firm to grow - they just moved in a year and a half ago and anticipate further growth. Each summer associate got their own office this summer.

I worked at a top 5 firm before lateraling to Bingham and let me tell you: this place is like Disneyland compared to my previous law firm. 1) about 90% of the partners are awesome - the type of people you would go out for a beer with; 2) the work is top notch, particularly if you're in the Securities or Telecom groups; 3) management actually listens to associated (there are once monthly associate lunches where we can voice our concerns to our associate representatives; and 4) we have "bucket of beer" parties every Friday which we are actually encouraged to attend.

Bingham has been on Fortune's Top 100 Places to Work likst for the last 3 years. There must be a good reason for that.

to 11:35 - i worked at one of a&b's non-atlanta offices and YES, you should worry about their love of atlanta. atlanta was always calling us when they need someone to dump work on (seems associates left the office by 6:00 so the associates living up in the northeast got the calls).

also, the firm likes to retreat ALL the time (retreats every year for associates and for each practice group). might sound nice, but that can be cheap about it and it gets annoying to be giving up so much weekend time. they impose silly restrictions on what they will refund for airfare and if you are in the ny or dc offices, they seem to always pick places where there are no direct flights and you have to leave at insanely inconvenient times to attend. then (at least when i worked there) they made you share a room at the retreat.

on the flip side - you can wear jeans to the office on friday AND there are free coca-cola machines. and there is a guaranteed bonus (4.5% base salery for 1900 billables; 7.5% base salary for 2000 billables; 10.5 (or maybe it's 12%) for 2100 billables -- but market bonus in the NY office for 2000 billables).

This is completely off track but for all those Atlanta fools that keep trying to assert the difference between Atlanta and DC cost of living isn't that much, the new numbers for median home prices in metro areas came out. Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta is at $175,500 and DC-Arlington-Alexandria (DC-VA-MD-WV) is at $445,300. So shut the hell up Atlanta and stop whining about not making that much!

Heller's Venture Law Group is extremely well regarded in Silicon Valley and the VC/Sand Hill community.

COL- you're a moron.

12:21,

You are an idiot. Cost of Living has absolutely nothing to do with salaries in any industry. Firms look at the cost of labor when determining salaries. Think about it, firms don't give out raises in response to new surveys about how much homes cost, they give out raises in response to what other firms are paying to the people they are trying to recruit, period. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with the cost of living.

My friend at Heller said they didn't raise salaries for summers, with no explanation. I can't confirm firsthand, but it would be odd for someone to say that when it wasn't true.

However, the quality of people from my school there, especially in SF/SV/Seattle, was really high, and they seemed to enjoy their summers. (Shock, enjoying a summer associateship...)

any thoughts or personal experience with Sonnenschein Chicago?

10:49 -- It's a joke. A&B comp. sucks and confirms the death of the "happy firm" reputation

The problem with the cost of labor argument is thinking that Big Law is regional -- it's not, it's national which is why most markets pay the same salary.

As for cost of living, most people were not claiming that Atlanta is comparable to DC. They were claiming that Atlanta is comparable to Charlotte and Houston.

Sonnenschein is de-equitizing like its nobody's business

I'm an idiot? I didn't say anything about wages being based on cost of living. I only was speaking as to people arguing earlier about cost of living in different markets. I specifically was responding to people that claimed that living in Atlanta was somewhat comparable to DC. I know there were people comparing Atlanta in general to Charlotte and Houston in general. But there were also plenty of people posting about cost of living in Atlanta not being that far off from cost of living in DC, and (could I say it any more clearly), THAT is what I was referring to.

COL, does your statement "So shut the hell up Atlanta and stop whining about not making that much!" somehow not qualify as a statement about wages being based on cost of living?

And I don;t care what those calculators say, if you find a liveable house in Atlanta for $175k, I'll eat my hat. The issue is not whether Atl priaces are comparable to DC, it's whether DC is so much more expensive to justify base salry differences of damn near $100k for senior associates.

To anyone who is thinking of applying at A&B, do yourself a favor and click on the "Alston & Bird" label above, then read the numerous negative comments that have been made about the firm, in all of its offices, over just the past month.

I agree with 12:15 on the non-Atlanta office points, except my office was definitely NOT a Friday jeans day sort of place. In fact, one associate from Atlanta who visited my office on a Friday and wore jeans was asked to change. In contrast to Atlanta, the NY and DC offices often hire people who would have a hard time getting jobs at local higher tier firms (no offense, I was one of them myself), which may explain why the firm has historically been a dinosaur on matching pay in those markets. It certainly is not because of lower billable hour expectations or because the partners are particularly enjoyable to work for.

correction to earlier post: A+B market bonus in the nyc office is for 2100 hours. in nyc office nothing but billable hours matters for bonus purposes. down in atlanta office (and perhaps charlotte, dc, not sure?) they give bonuses for "extraordinary" contribution such that non-billable hours count for something. in nyc associates get called upon to do non-billable work all the time (i dont mean recruiting lunches, i mean late night real work for potential clients, for other offices, cause some partner wants it for god knows why, forced pro bono and the like). nonetheless it may be a good place to work as evidenced from the fortune 500 list as loads of laterals flood in in the 3-6th year from the big nyc lawyer hell hole factories, looking for the promised land, i cant say they don't get it, they look pretty comfortable to me.

1:54,

The operable word in your post would be "in" atlanta. You can get a brand new 3 bed/2.5 bath house way out in the sticks for less than $150k, but with a commute of 30 to 40 miles one way which sucks big time.

I wonder if you could find a house 30 to 40 miles from DC for less than $150k? I bet you probably could.

2:04, there's no way in hell you could find a house 30 to 40 miles from DC for $150k. That's a fact.

Regardless, comp. in Atlanta blows. After buying a "starter" house within 20 minutes of midtown ($450-$550k for a ranch build in 1940), paying for private school ($7,000-$12,000k), and the insane city/state taxes, one isn't exactly flush with cash.

Unless your spouse is in Biglaw, a doctor, banker, or broker, your Biglaw salary barely keeps you "comfortable" in Atlanta.

Now, if you want to live in the strip-mall hell, suburban sprall on steroids, that is outside of the perimeter in Atlanta (and ejoy spending 2 hrs. per day in your car), you can live like a king.

Whoever said Sonnenschein is de-equitizing is full of it.

Any thoughts re: A&B New York? Are people happy there? Work quality?

What about public school in Atlanta?

2:13 - surely you jest?

That really depends on your definition of de-equitizing, doesn't it? They pushed out some partners and made some realize that they were not in their future, particularly in T&E, but in some other areas as well, but I wouldn't compare it to something on a mass scale like Mayer Brown where it is a lot at one time principally to push up PPP. The partner levels at Sonnenschein are staying the same, but they are simultaneously bringing in partners who have very profitable practices. Of course, I still doubt that they reach their stated goals of tripling revenues and PPP in 5 years, that's just crazy.

To add to 2:04(1)'s comments, the extraordinary contribution bonuses sound great on paper, but I think the instances in which someone gets one (if ever) in any office (even Atlanta) are few and far between.

When I left A&B for another firm, I could not believe how little non-billable work was expected of me in comparison to the situation that 2:04(1) described, which was also my experience. The partners in my group routinely told us that we needed to spend 300-500 hours doing non-billable work in addition to our billable work (depending on where you ended up with your billable hours). The associates at my new firm laughed when I asked if this was the policy there as well. Of course, at A&B, I was also encouraged to record every second of time that I spent doing anything firm related, whether it was attending a group happy hour, writing a partner's speech for a conference, or attending a summer associate function. Perhaps the reason I am not expected to log as many non-billable hours at my new firm is that my new firm doesn't feel the need to monitor what I am doing 24 hours a day and really doesn't give a shit unless they are going to make money from it.

Obviously, the further away you get from any city, the faster housing prices decline. I have zero doubt that the rate of decline is much slower in DC than in Atlanta. That means efforts to average prices across metro areas probably result in a somewhat misleading picture of what it costs to live in Atlanta.

No doubt that prices within Atlanta are lower than within DC as well. But you DC folks are welcome to come down here and find a house in the city neighborhoods where people actually WANT to live, and see what you can afford on the Atlanta biglaw salary scale. Anyone who thinks that Atl associates have their choice of McMansions within 10 minutes of the office will be quickly disabused of that notion.

211: work quality at A&B New York is good. One advantage of the smaller New York office is that associates largely avoid the hellish doc review or due dilligence typical of the 1st-3rd year experience at large firms. It's drafting and other real work basically from day one. Partners and senior associates want the "lifestyle" A&B is famous for, they accomplish this in part by dishing off important work to juniors - making the work opportunities quite excellent by New York large firm standards

The reason Alston sucks and will never be a highly ranked national firm is that Atlanta despises its satellite offices (and yes, New York, DC and Charlotte are "satellite offices" is the prejorative sense of the word). It expects these offices to service the Atl mother ship and from associates on up to the partnership is resents paying New York market salaries and for such basics as summer lunches.

Sonnenschein doesn't pay a clerkship bonus until the former clerk has been there for a year. Any chance they budge on this? Anyone know from personal experience?

2:27 is 100% correct. A&B likes to have NC, NY & DC offices so that it can say that it is a "national firm," but then bitches at the attitude of the people in those offices for expecting to get market pay, bar expenses, etc., as if everyone should simply be grateful to be employed by A&B.

Plus's for A&B
1. "Best Places to Work" means a happy administrative staff for the most part.
2. Good place to learn - partners generally are good to work for.
3. Diversity is big (if you consider that to be important).
4. Lockstep compensation - you know what you are going to make next year - makes it harder for partners to be pricks
5. Four weeks of vacation (I have yet to meet an associate who took even 2 full weeks).

Negatives
1. Associates are treated as "third class citizens" at the firm.
a. Partners and staff get a somewhat generous 401k match; associates get nada;
b. Health insurance premiums are graduated based upon salary; however, anyone over $100k pays the highest premium (a $1m partner pays the same as a junior associate)
c. Retreats (per comment of someone else above)
d. bonuses are strictly enforced - an hour away from 2100 is the same as 99 hours away.
e. It's a lot harder to make partner - especially outside of Atlanta (just a handful made partner outside of the Atlanta office last year).

It's a good firm, but needs to work on how it treats its associates. The fortune best places to work surveys rarely make it to any associates.

COL at 2:21

Having lived in both cities, housing is indeed more expensive in DC but your numbers are way off. No way can you get a house anywhere in the livable metro Atlanta for under $200k, including exurbs. Sandy Springs housing is going to start in the high $400k range for a 3/2 and go up pretty steeply from there. 3/2 in-town houses are in the $500k range, except townhomes which tend to run about $100k less. Suburban housing is not much cheaper, but is much larger (that is to say, it's hard to find anything under $400,000, but you'll get a 5/3 for that much in the distant Atlanta burbs)

Also, Marietta is a good 20+ miles from Atlanta, so it would be more accurate to compare Marietta housing with, say, Centreville or Manassas (or, even more accurately, whatever exurb in DC area houses an enormous amount of migrant workers as Marietta does) than Arlington and Alexandria, which are more equivalent to Sandy Springs and Dunwoody. Even so, I doubt you can get a house in Marietta for less than $300k.

2:11 -- don't believe what 2:19 says. depending what department you are in in the ny a&b office has a big impact on how you are doing. i have friends in the corporate side and they seem genuinely happy. on the other hand, the last year has seen a pretty heft exodus of associates from the litigation group (7 in about the last year, 5 of which were women, 3 of those women were minorities and one of the two men who left were also minorities). In the litigation group, this is compounded by the fact that they can't hold onto paralegals and the junior associates get hammered with that type of work, as well.

as far as work quality, it truly isn't all that great. you may get some real experience, but you are just as likely to get dumped with doc review -- especially when atlanta comes calling with tons of work.

on top of that, the support is shitty (the people they have are very nice, but there simply aren't enough of them) - not enough paralegals (and the ones they have get 0 training), not enough clerical support, not enough support on getting things filed, and really no training for young associates.

i'm not saying a&b new york is awful - compared to other nyc biglaw firms, the hours aren't all that bad (though I hear they are getting worse as a result of the pay increases). that said, they have swiftly been falling on the fortune list of best places to work. it may be a great place to work in some of the other offices, but i'm not sure it is true for the entirety of the nyc office.

if you are considering where to apply to and work (especially as a junior associate) i'd try for a bigger better new york name. unless you plan on staying at a&b, they aren't that respected in the ny market, the experience isn't great and you don't have a whole lot of opportunities going forward (if you want to stay in new york, the name doesn't travel as well as higher ranked firms).

just my two cents.

If disgraced AG Gonzales ends up at V&E, what are the odds that summer associate events will include waterboarding? Would associates have any expectation of privacy in their phone calls? If they get sick, do you think Gonzo would find them in their hospital beds and try to get them to sign things?

Any info on V&E in Houston? I'm interested in some information on the QOL there ... thanks!

A&B again -- what about lateraling into litigation as a 4th or 5th year?

I wrote at 12:15 and misstated NYC market bonus for A&B -- must hit 2100 billables.

And people are right, those hours are strictly enforced, if you are .1 hours away you will get nada.

You can get a house 30-40 miles outside DC which translates into a 2 hour commute (traffics is MUCH worse than Atlanta) and STILL would have to pay $400,000 for a decent 3 BR house. Atlanta people have no clue.

So we've established that cost of living doesn't determine compensation. Instead, the market rules in determining what associates are worth.

So, basically, the Atlanta market has determined that associates there are not worth as much as the associates seem to think they are worth. Is that right?

DC is at least 2x more expensive and you will get much, much less for your money. I was shocked to face the higher prices. There are huge upsides to DC that offset the cost of living: I think traffic is way worse in Atl as is crime. Plus, even in ATL burbs you still need to find a private school. DC's burbs have some of the best public schools in the nation.

I don't regret moving to DC. I don't think people in Atl realize what a dump the city and metro area is.

I am still chuckling at the "Let the Eagle Soar" name - appropriate giving the Gonzo resignation. Thanks for making my day!

Alston has moved to $160k in DC...finally.

3:20: Any more info on the reasons behind the mass exodus in litigation at A&B NY? and why did so many women in particular leave? I am looking at the smaller NY offices, and liked A&B so far from what I have learned on my own, but this sounds pretty bad

Any info on Heller in NY?

4:46: I think there was no particular reason, everyone had some family-personal related reason (leaving NYC, going back to school, etc.). Overall, the litigators there I know are a pretty happy bunch.

for 4:46, in order of exit ....

one left because felt a&b wasn't as advertised (moved from a biglaw typical nyc firm for a more humane lifestyle and her lifestyle did not improve as much as she had hoped).

one left to go to another city where lawfirm practice entailed less hours

one left for another, better ranked nyc firm to do better work

one left because she had a family, had attempted to make a part time/alternative schedule work, but that schedule failed (despite the fact she was, for a while, the only associate in litigation that had young children and the only associate in litigation attempting part time).

final one left to go back to school for another advanced degree (from what i heard, she also had never wanted to be in the litigation dept but they had run out of space/work in corporate).

on top of that, there is only one female partner in litigation - which doesn't look great. only positive flip side is that the majority of associates in the department are women and there are many mid-level verging on senior associate women there. most of them make an effort to do mentoring, which can be very helpful.

for 3:25 - i'd say check them out for lateralling as a 5th or 6th year -- but keep in mind that in litigation there seems to be a glut of people at that level and there has been some anxiety and speculation as to whether or not most will be able to make partner. it's fine to lateral if you want a slower pace, but not sure if lateralling again afterward would be so easy OR if p'ship is realistic. i know of two people who were up for partnership and got shot down. which could be horrible if you had lateralled mainly to make partner and find out in a few years that you will just be pushed out (there are some rumors that the sole female partner in the litigation department who puts in huge amounts of hours may be being pushed out b/c not enough new biz/revenue brought in ... another reason to be cautious before moving because it appears that making partner and dedicating the vast majority of your life to the firm may not even be enough for job security).

for 4:46, in order of exit ....

one left because felt a&b wasn't as advertised (moved from a biglaw typical nyc firm for a more humane lifestyle and her lifestyle did not improve as much as she had hoped).

one left to go to another city where lawfirm practice entailed less hours

one left for another, better ranked nyc firm to do better work

one left because she had a family, had attempted to make a part time/alternative schedule work, but that schedule failed (despite the fact she was, for a while, the only associate in litigation that had young children and the only associate in litigation attempting part time).

final one left to go back to school for another advanced degree (from what i heard, she also had never wanted to be in the litigation dept but they had run out of space/work in corporate).

on top of that, there is only one female partner in litigation - which doesn't look great. only positive flip side is that the majority of associates in the department are women and there are many mid-level verging on senior associate women there. most of them make an effort to do mentoring, which can be very helpful.

for 3:25 - i'd say check them out for lateralling as a 5th or 6th year -- but keep in mind that in litigation there seems to be a glut of people at that level and there has been some anxiety and speculation as to whether or not most will be able to make partner. it's fine to lateral if you want a slower pace, but not sure if lateralling again afterward would be so easy OR if p'ship is realistic. i know of two people who were up for partnership and got shot down. which could be horrible if you had lateralled mainly to make partner and find out in a few years that you will just be pushed out (there are some rumors that the sole female partner in the litigation department who puts in huge amounts of hours may be being pushed out b/c not enough new biz/revenue brought in ... another reason to be cautious before moving because it appears that making partner and dedicating the vast majority of your life to the firm may not even be enough for job security).

12:04: "Wonderful" is a strong word.

salary raise for A&B's DC office was announced this afternoon. complaining from the ATL office should begin shortly...

The biggest misconception is that A&B is any less of a sweat shop than K&S. K&S has better work; A&B is the firm you pick if K&S dings you. K&S is the firm you pick if you're shut out of the NY market.

5:52: that's total BS.

Is A&B DC lockstep?

5:17 -- I have heard that about the female partner as well but I heard it was b/c she was one of the "holdovers" from the boutique A&B took over in NY. They have been pushing out pretty much all partners from that time. She may not have enough biz but she apparently also made no effort to fit in, just the contrary.

As a disclaimer, I was in a different A&B office, but will throw in my impressions of the A&B NY situation. A&B NY is the result of a boutique takeover around 2001 and a bunch of laterals picked up here and there. A&B is very Atlanta-centric and there were some personality clashes and issues in meshing the NY office with the rest of the firm. There were also profitability/workload issues with the NY office in its first few years which may have improved over the past few years, but I believe there are only a small number of people left who were around back in 2001 and many of the people who left did not leave voluntarily. At one point, associates and partners were leaving in droves because the expectations of the firm did not meet the expectations of the boutique's partners/associates. In the past couple of years, the NY managing partner from the previous era was also mysteriously replaced by a partner in the DC office who started out at the Atlanta mothership. So, it may be hard to look at what has happened in the past and guess what will happen in the future, but I wouldn't recommend A&B NY to anyone who is looking for a job there. The office is in transition and, if anything, is getting more like the Atlanta and other satellite offices, which is not a good thing in my opinion.

6:06 -- No it is not (another poster here). K&S has much better work across the board, and A&B really does treat its associates like s**t. There is a total glut at A&B for non-equity partners who have NO -- NO -- chance for promotion.

I have heard that the "young" partners are taking over A&B and trying to press out the older partners in an effort to make the place more profitable. The rumor is that this is causing real cultural change at A&B, and that many people are getting stepped on in the process. Can any A&B insiders address this?

8:00 -- I guess it depends on what you mean by "young" (which is probably why you put young in quotes), but it is definitely true that some of the mid-range aged partners are trying to push out the slackers and improve profitability. Ben & Co. were possibly a bit too hung up on what an honor it was for young associates to be at A&B, but I do think it is the younger, greedy, prestige whores who are now in leadership across the A&B offices who are pushing for the firm to operate more like a NY firm. Where this isn't feasible based on the firm's current client base, billing structure, etc., the answer seems to be second-tier pay and pushing "dead weight" out the door. I don't think these "leaders" have enough sense to figure out that this may increase profits in the short-term, but is unlikely to be successful in the long-run, since there is no reason to work at A&B just to be treated like crap, doing second-tier work for second-tier pay.

A number of Dechert real estate and finance attorneys moved to A&B's NY office about 2 years ago. Any word on how that practice is doing? The word at Dechert is that they were good attorneys, but wanted to be big fish in a smaller pond.

6:06--My comment about New York is a little exaggerated, but unless you have personal reasons for picking ATL, you'd be out of your mind not to go to NYC. ATL is expensive, it's dangerous, and it's dull.

I'm not saying K&S isn't a sweat shop; A&B and K&S are BOTH sweatshops. Firm culture is a myth at A&B. K&S is the better firm. No rational person should pick one sweatshop over the other because of some fantasy about QOL. Tell me how that's BS.

The Dechert folks that moved to A&B New York are part of the new flavor of partner that A&B is reaching out to. They are very good attorneys, but are part of an effort to move of the firm away from its Southern values. Full speed ahead, damned the associates!

8:28 is right. A&B's new "leaders" are singularly focused on PPP -- trying to hold off SAB in that measure and trying, vainly, to catch K&S, which has just kicked our but in this measure. A&B is no longer a QOL firm (if it ever was). It's all about the money now, and in particular there is new management that believes the partners should have been making a lot more over the years but for tolerating dead wood. Expect the equity ranks to be cut over the next several years, and for new equity partners from among the current income class to be rare. I hate to say it, but A&B is now K&S-light.

I have worked at A&B in the past and I can confirm that 8:29 is correct about A&B now being profits-obsessed at great expense to certain non-equity partners and associates.

I will also throw this in. The IP Group is on an essentially uncompressed $160K scale in Atlanta, Charlotte, and Raleigh. So you might be a 5th or 6th year associate in Atlanta making less than a 1st year IP associate. You know what that means? If the two of you get staffed on the same case, you are going to be getting a lot more crap work than usual because the 1st year IP associate bills at a higher rate than you do. Contention amongst non-IP associates? Like you wouldn't believe....

3:25 yesterday,

A friend is in litigation at V&E (Houston) and works crazy hours. Not sure this is the case for every associate, but said friend really wants to make partner one day, etc.

No one can say the money isn't good though (nowadays, at least...$160k in Houston; b**** please...)

Some posters have raised questions about how women are treated at Alston. I summered at Alston. Women seemed to be treated well. There were lots of female associates with kids and a firm daycare that gets used by many attorneys. I heard that in one of the other offices there are 2 female senior associates who have 3 kids each so it seems they are making it work. It was inspiring for me as a summer to hear about that. From what I can tell it's a pleasant place to work for women.

9:57 -- I too was a summer at A&B once and thought it seemed like a great place to work. The firm environment at A&B is ok for women -- not great, but probably better than some firms. In my non-Atlanta office, the female partners did not really take an interest in mentoring younger women, which was fine with me since the women who were successful in my office were not exactly role models. Some of the most prominent female attorneys at A&B (including in Atlanta) seem to be of the school of thought that they had to put up with lots of crap, ignore their kids, and do God knows what else to succeed at the firm, therefore, they don't go out of their way to help young female associates.

In my office, it was pretty widely known that the managing partner did not approve of female associates having children, but had learned to "tolerate it." I can't say for sure what things are like in Atlanta, but the rumor a few years back was that several female partners were de-equitized. Thankfully, I left A&B, so I can't speak for whether the culture has improved for women in the last couple of years. However, I would encourage you not to rely on what the firm sells re the Fortune rankings, etc., at face value, as you may be disappointed if you plan to return as a permanent associate.

9:10 - thanks for the information. I don't have any biglaw experience (...yet), does anyone know if the hours are less crazy at biglaws if an associate is not looking to jump on the partnership fast track?

I'm so tired of the "great for women" tagline. Are there really any large law firms that systematically treat women any worse than men? I'd argue no - doesn't mean they treat women particularly well, however. I'm at a law firm that's allegedly great for women and I really can't discern anything distinctive about it beyond a rhetorical commitment to advancing women.

Also, I've found that female partners are no more willing to mentor female associates than male partners are. I don't judge them for that, but I think it's folly to presume that female leaders at law firms are dying to take female associates under their wings.

10:17, the whole point of a big law firm is to suck the life out of you. They will softsell it to you in many ways, but at the end of the day, they only can sell your time. If you go into a big law firm thinking you can have a "life", you are mistaken --- the law firm will become your life.

Be Realistic... - thanks for the refreshing dose of realism. It's sad that we're in a profession of extremes. You can work for the government to have a life - but then not make enough money to enjoy it (unless you are blessed enough not to have student loan debt)... or you can make lots of money at biglaw and not have a life (and possibly end up resenting your career choice in the end)... *sigh* As Susan Powder says "Stop The Insanity"!

I work for A&B and I have a life.

If you have a Life, 12:04, then you probably aren't pulling your weight.

110: Please bill 3000 hours this year so that I can bill 1400 and make the same amount of money as you. Thx.

to 9:57 - a&b atlanta may be ok if you have a family - but other offices DO NOT have daycare. the way it is in atlanta as compared to the other offices (especially new york) can be night and day. new york only has a back up emergency day care located offsite that operates very abbreviated hours that are not convenient or realistic for attorneys. as far as i know, in the nyc office there were very few, IF ANY, female partners taht had young children. and i didn't know of any female associates, save one that recently left the firm, that had young children.

i'm not saying it is a terrible place for women, as previous posters have mentioned, any biglaw firm is likely to put a strain on anyone (male or female) seeking to be a responsible parent (or even just to have a decent work/life balance), and that is even worse in markets like ny and dc. that said, 9:57's description of how a&b is for attorneys with children was too sugar coated for my taste.

2:22, I have no desire to bill 3000, but I am sick of covering for people who bill 1400

a7b: You should learn the word "no." Developmental milestones for children indicate that the use of the word is normally mastered by the age of 3.

Losers say no

Bingham NY is awesome. One of the few lifestyle firms in NY. The halls are practically empty by 9 pm (obviously younger associates tend to leave later, maybe around 11) and you get paid market. You work on deals with top 10-15 firms on the other side of the transaction, the only difference being the other side has a team of 10 associates and you have a team of 2 or 3. Wonder where you'll get more experience?

Bingham NY is awesome. One of the few lifestyle firms in NY. The halls are practically empty by 9 pm (obviously younger associates tend to leave later, maybe around 11) and you get paid market. You work on deals with top 10-15 firms on the other side of the transaction, the only difference being the other side has a team of 10 associates and you have a team of 2 or 3. Wonder where you'll get more experience?

1:23, FYI: leaving around 11pm is not a "lifestyle" - assume you get to work around 10am, and bill 11 out of the 13 hours you're in the office every day, you work 5 days a week - 48 weeks a year - and also assuming you never work a weekend (this would never happen at any nyc firm however) you are billing 2640/year!!! - you might as well be at skadden.

I'm starting with the NY Heller office in October and I concur 100% with the August 27, 2007 11:29 AM poster. Not only did Heller pay for my bar costs, and give me $12,500 summer stipend on top of the bar costs, but they also advanced me a week's pay when I needed it. In all I've been paid close to $16k (in addition to the aforementioned bar fees) and haven't even done a single day of work yet. I don't know about you guys, but that's fine by me.

As a follow up to 8/28 at 9:57, one of the female associates with 3 kids left A&B yesterday.

10:11
You don't bill the whole time youre there. People at Skadden leave on average at 2 am. You don't know what you're talking about if you think every second youre at work you're billing. How do I know this? Because I'm a lawyer in NY and know people everywhere. Bingham is a lifestyle firm. They also pay bar stipends, not advances.

bingham mccutchen is not really one of the best firms to work for.

A&B has left the lifestyle schtick behind and is now trying desperately to be relevant in the legal market. Nothing makes that more clear than the $25K "loyalty bonuses" they had to pay a group of associates to prevent a mass defection to Paul Hastings. How embarrassing.

Does anyone know why several partners just left A&B DC?