Second too, wow first and second

Second too, wow first and second

Greenberg = sweatshop to top all sweatshops

Third.

Wait - Fifth

Didn't H&K have some problems a few years ago?

Any HELPFUL comments about Steptoe (D.C.) would be appreciated...good and bad. I am going there this fall and would like to know the lay of the land, both in terms of the firm's overall status and any internal information.

2L, interviewing with Foley. Can anyone tell me about the firm? How is Milwaukee?

Uh, Milwaukee is great if you like cheese and snow...

Greenberg Traurig has terrible reputation, especially its DC, Miami, and NY offices. I heard horror stories from classmates where summer associates got pulled from happy hours, middle of SA events, and even from a bathroom to work on assignments! One of them told me SAs in his office were told to pull allnighters during their summer there for specific projects. 3:38 is right - it's a sweathshop of all sweathshops!

...and beer and Bud Selig.

Milwaukee is a pretty decent place. Good drinking town, and a lot of fatty food. It really depends on you. If you're a New York/LA person, you'll probably hate it because it is too slow, otherwise, there is a decent chance you'll like it.

Anybody know about the other Foley offices? It seems like a kind of crappy firm, but I'm curious.

"I heard horror stories from classmates where summer associates got pulled from happy hours, middle of SA events, and even from a bathroom to work on assignments!"

Bullshit.

I heard horror stories from classmates where summer associates were kidnapped, stuffed into helicopters, and forced to start their jobs 2 weeks early, without pay, and doing document review at a windowless warehouse in Cambodia without bathroom breaks. Then they were told that they would be killed if they told their classmates. Sorry, Steve! I had to tell someone! They can't treat people like that!

Greenberg's no so bad. No theme song on the charts yet and I bet the HR dept has a basic grasp of IP law.

Foley does good IP work, I've heard. No idea about the rest of the firm

Cambodia to wooden nickels.

Which has the hottest support staff? Most promiscuous?

Steptoe...anyone, anyone...Bueller?

I heard at one of the Greenberg summer outings one of the senior associates picked up a puppy and threw it into a dry erase board.

foley's a crap shoot. they have a very good securities enforcement practice and a decent white collar group in dc, but not much along the lines of business law.

417 -- bullshit, that was Michael Vick and it was the Falcons summer training camp.

Foley's Washington office is about the most non-social place on earth. Don't go there unless you have a large arsenal of friends . . . you ain't makin' any at work.

4:13 -

Don't worry about it. It was bound to come out eventually. I just hope ...

THWACK {the sound of black's law dictionary being used to pummel me}

I summered at Greenberg and can confirm some of the stories. The sweatshop reputation is true. The partners expressly asked me to work on most weekends and once gave me an assignment at 7 PM that had to be completed by next morning (it wasn't a short assignment either). Do the math.

430-- you're kidding me??? you had to work past 7 PM? Shut the F-up whiner. They probably wanted to make you quit.

4:36 - Not after 7 PM - I had to work ALL NIGHT LONG to finish this assignment on time. I appreciate that you guys do this all the time, but it's pretty unusual to ask summer associate to pull allnighters. Definitely convinced me not to go there.

For all the GT horror stories, is this NY? I work at a different location and there is no sweatshop atmosphere at all. By 6pm or 7pm the offices are a ghost town and people take vacation pretty regularly.

4:36 - 4:30 is at Nixon Peabody now, and it's spelled "winner."

i call bs on 4:41, unless the office is one of the backwater florida offices

Any comments on Kaye Scholer? Inquiring minds...

"...people take vacation pretty regularly."

Those "people" = shareholders, not associates.

4:40 - You're an idiot.

When I pulled an all nighter as a summer at GT I remember thinking a few things myself: 1) this office is pretty empty to be a law firm, glad to know all nighters are no the norm here; 2) wow, they are giving me real work that actually needs to get done and is going to get billed; 3) they're not giving me a bunch of bullshit lies to convince me to come work for them at any cost, they want me to know what it's really like, that's pretty stand-up of them.

No wonder GT was trying to get rid of you.

Ditto on Kaye Scholer... what are their strongest practice areas?

The rats ... um ... I mean, associated are leaving the Kaye Scholar ship. I had a close friend who worked in the NY office for just over 6 months doing corporate work. She told me that associates there were leaving faster than they were coming in. It probably had to do with the fact that she was routinely there until 3 or 4 in the morning and back at her desk by 10.

The rats ... um ... I mean, associates are leaving the Kaye Scholar ship. I had a close friend who worked in the NY office for just over 6 months doing corporate work. She told me that associates there were leaving faster than they were coming in. It probably had to do with the fact that she was routinely there until 3 or 4 in the morning and back at her desk by 10.

I am an associate at Greenberg Traurig NY. The firm has other problems, but it is not a sweatshop. Hours are flexible and the firm is willing to make accommodations for associates who want to go part time, etc. If you want to work all the time, the work is there, but anyone with a backbone can refuse assignments (from time to time) and not get fired. The biggest problem for associates is the bonus system. Bonuses are not market-based. They are completely hours-based, so an associate who works sweatshop hours (2300+) will get a bonus that's above market but an associate who works reasonable hours (< 2100) gets screwed. I've never asked for vacation time and been denied, and it's easy to take a Friday off if things are quiet.

The NY office space ranges in quality -- the firm just opened up a few new floors which are really nice but the older floors could use a makeover and some art on the walls. The firm is very well run, with an emphasis on profitability in all offices. I suspect profits per partner are much higher in New York than the firm's averages, but nobody breaks out those numbers for us. The work I do is top-notch, with a wider range of the highest quality clients being brought in all the time, and the partners are friendly and range from brilliant to competent. All-in-all, not a bad place to be for a reasonable BigLaw life.

4:44 - This is 4:41, it's one of the four top billing offices, not saying which.

What are hours like at Foley Milwaukee? Is it a viable option to Chicago? Or are the exit options too small to merit consideration?

4:57 - My experience exactly.

Kaye Scholer = litigation. They have no midlevel associates in corporate/finance and senior associates have zero chance of making partner. Once told by management that based on surveys they knew we were unhappy but obviously not that unhappy since we still worked there.

Milwauke is an epic drinking town

How does Greenberg Traurig feel about this: http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1187082122370 ?

GT has sweatshop reputation in Florida too, including Orlando. From what I hear, Foley Orlando is a really nice place to work. H&K is hit or miss.

I understand that the GT Miami office is a stone's throw from areas with some of the the highest murder rates in the nation.

KS's litigation dept. is strong, particularly in patent and products liability, although there is a good mix of other litigation as well. Associates have been more stressed of late due to a confluence of big, fast-moving cases, but it is not really anything different from what you would see at any other NY Biglaw firm. People are generally nice.

Are these real firms? Is ATL just making up names now?

The KS Corporate practice is having issues, but those issues aren't really extending to other areas of the firm. Litigation people seem happy, as do the other departments - real estate, bankruptcy, tax.

5:29 - It's right in the big business/hotel district. It's in a major city, just like all th other "highest murder rates in the nation." Guess what, New York law firms, are near high murder rates. Chicago law firms, are near high murder rates.

But way to not be overly dramatic: "If you work at GT Miami, you will get MURDERED ON YOUR WAY TO WORK."

H&K:
Overall, very nice attorneys, compensation is below market most of their offices. Pretty good work, though no contract attorneys doing doc review=the associates (even mid-levels) do some for larger litigation. Best firm in Florida, and probably more selective in Florida than in NY or LA.

Miami is TTT period. It's a sweatshop where chickens roam the streets.

KS litigation has always been among the best in the city and it keeps growing. The firm gets frequent accolades in patent and products work from legal publications (i.e. American Lawyer). Also a market leader in pro bono. Generally a nice place to work. Even in busier times, partners do their best to respect associates' personal lives. While litigation department is currently a lot busier than in previous years, it has resulted in junior associates getting to do more advanced work than they otherwise would.

I interviewed for GT's NY office at OCI. They sent someone from the DC office to do the screening interviews (too cheap to fly someone from NY?). The guy was totally rude and unprofessional throughout and could provide little information on the NY office. I heard he stuffed his face with cookies while interviewing another student and talked while eating (gross!). He also told me straight out that they are below average compared to other firms in the pro bono department. I must say, I at least found the honesty to be refreshing. Overall, he showed me complete disrespect in the interview. I've also heard terrible things about their DC summer program. GT is not for me.

At this point in the Vault scale, you might as well not practice law if you are going to be working in these bottom-feeder law firms...

Way to be a supporter of the profession, Ricky Tan. Some lawyers even make a living by . . . gasp . . . having their own firm. Some make more on their own than they did as former partners at a Vault firm.

3:47 & 4:17 -- I used to work at Steptoe DC and left for personal reasons (i.e., not because I hated the firm). You will work hard, but people there seemed to have a better quality of life and/or a happier outlook than a lot of my friends at other firms in DC. There were a few associates who worked for hardcore litigation partners who would probably disagree (if they are even still there), but overall, Steptoe is not really the sort of firm where partners will scream at you or interrogate you about where you went if you go to a doctors appointment or leave the office early one day. The firm has been leaning pretty heavily on temps and contract attorneys for doc review work in the past few years, which I guess is good news in terms of avoiding crap work. The firm has a pretty generous policy re counting pro bono time towards billable hours and a loaner program with DC legal aid and associates seem to be encouraged to participate in both programs to get litigation experience.

When I was there, the biggest complaint of Steptoe associates was that the firm was cheap and had a deferred compensation system that everyone hated. The firm has since ditched deferred comp and raised salaries to market pay. This is good news in terms of pay, but it has probably had a negative impact on QOL. The firm was also cheap about some other things like not having bottled water, cab policies, etc., compared to other large DC firms. My favorite thing about Steptoe was that it was the sort of firm where I could go to work, put in a respectable number of hours, and then go home, or work from home when necessary. Face time was not a big issue and there was not much pressure to spend a lot of time on non-billable crap.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for all of the Steptoe comments [cough, cough]...and for Ricky Tan, if a firm pays you as much or more as a "higher ranked" firm but requires less of you to maintain the glorious prestige ranking worshiped by the overly-entitled, narcissistic, and greedily misguided among us, then who is the real sucker in this equation? Food for thought.

Ironically, my above comment (7:14) was being typed as the helpful Steptoe comment (7:12) was also being typed. Ergo, scratch my Steptoe solicitation (thank you 7:12) but my Ricky Tan comment lives on.

HK still hasn't raised. That is all you need to know.

I interviewed for a DC office with a GT partner from another office. He was very rude and obnoxious. He ran over his interview time with a previous student and didn't even bother to open the door to let me know he is running late. I knocked 3 times in the span of 10 minutes. When he finally opened the door (12 minutes late into my 20-min interview slot), he didn't even bother to apologize. Instead, he proceeded to spend another 3 minutes filling out an evaluation form for the previous interviewee while I was waiting for him to begin the interview. Is this a firm-wide practice or something?

F&L is having an identity crisis. It used to be the firm you "brought home to mom" but it's feeling the competitive pressures everyone is feeling. That means having an 1850 base hours requirement but really expecting people (who wish to advance) to bill 2000. (and the weird comp system basically means everyone is paid below market). It used to be that if you stuck around for 7 years they'd make you a partner, but all that has caught up to them. So there's a HUGE "senior counsel" backlog and lots of deadweight in the partnership. They're trying to figure out how to deal with that while retaining their midwestern appeal. (tough to do) Some of their practice groups are top-notch, like IP and securities enforcement. They have some big corporate clients out of Milwaukee that keep the rest of the people comfortably employed, but some practices in the firm are just dead. But really the home office is the bread winner, the DC office brings the prestige, the regional markets are kind of boring and isolated (Detroit, FL, smaller CA offices). NY and Boston fall into this category. Overall, if you aren't looking for prestige factor, it's pretty good.

7:46,

If you look at Greenberg Traurig's DC office website, there are maybe at best 13 associates practicing some form of litigation (not counting government contracts). From what you write, seems they don't want associates and if they do, looks like they didn't make a good impression on you.

4:25:

THWACK {the sound of Brother Beede using a thick tomb to to pummel me--in class--for my pre-lawyerly 'tude>}

Hurt like a Mother F*****.

F&L is in the middle of a bigtime identity crisis. They want to position themselves to play with the big boys and get bigger clients. In some departments they may find success. At least some offices are struggling to make hours though.

5:58 - You're insane. That's exactly what H&K *wants* you to think. In reality, they are lukewarm, even in Florida (where GT, Akerman, and the local offices of national firms are better). But hey, what do you expect from a firm that originated in Bartow, Floirda?

What is the story on Foley's Los Angeles office?

Holland and Knight partners like to sue the Little League. GO H and K!

H&K is a sinking ship. Check out the number of partners now compared to just 2 years ago. Last lawyer left please turn out the lights ....

Foley bumped to 160 in CA/DC/BOS/CHI/NY

What is the relationship between www.steptoe.com and www.steptoe-johnson.com?

Steptoe-Johnson in West Virginia used to be part of the Steptoe & Johnson firm in DC, but at some point the two firms split off. The firms are no longer affiliated with one another in any way.

What are the bonuses like at Steptoe?

Foley is a great firm. I summered there a couple of years ago and would highly recommend it. Sure, if you're obsessed with prestige, it may not be the place for you. However, I am seriously considering joinging after I finish clerking for a circuit judge.

"Even in busier times, partners do their best to respect associates' personal lives" - Clearly written by someone in KS HR or else the litigation department is a cake walk compared to corporate. I can't believe they are still trying to market themselves as a lifestyle firm.

Holland and Knight DRUG TESTS its law clerks and summer associates. Don't work for a firm that invades employee privacy like that (even people who don't take drugs shouldn't put up with privacy violations).

Foley & Lardner is a decent firm. Strong IP, healthcare, aviation and securities enforcement practices. Quality practice outside of Wisconsin in Chicago, Florida and California. Milwaukee is a very underrated city. High quality of life, beautiful lake front, downtown renaissance, friendly people. The Milwaukee, Madison and Chicago offices all have a nice positive culture so far as a biglaw firm can. Merger is probably in their nearer-term future, but that shouldn't be an inhibitor to considering them.

Speaking of billable hours in general, does anyone know the normal ratio of "hours in the office" to "billable hours" at a large law firm? I'm about to start at such a firm next month. Specifically, if I plan to walk into the office at 7 a.m. and leave at 8 p.m. on weekdays, how many hours could I reasonably expect to be able to bill (on average) in each 13-hour day?

Holland & Knight is the McDonald's franchise system of the legal profession. Their business model is to have offices all over the place of around 50 or so lawyers. That really doesn't get you much, but I'm not sure H&K even pretends its a primetime law firm to begin with. They seem to plug along as a middling law firm with middling profitability. There's nothing wrong with that model. At least they aren't suffering an identify crisis like most middle of the pack Am Law 100/200 firms who like to pretend they will be become a Cravath, Skadden, Latham, etc. someday.

August 27, 2007 04:48 PM,

You really aren't doing much to dispel 4:40's perception of GT. I don't know your firm from Adam, but it seems to me that if you respond that way to someone who has a legit concern about working all night on no notice as a summer associate, GT probably is a sweatshop. Not to mention, its obvious that there is at least one asshole in the firm. Seriously guy, work on your people skills.

Re: "Lifestyle" firms

With law firms starting associates out at $160 th, are some young attorneys so naive to think that they can have their cake and eat it too?!? Let's get serious here folks. If it is your career ambition to be on the partnership track within a big firm, then be prepared to pay the piper and sacrifice things in your family and personal life. If you are unwilling to sacrifice those things, then put your law degree to some other use in a smaller local or regional firm, government, public service, etc.

The Atlanta market is the model for firms going through an "identity crisis." Take your pick.

9:48: That's actually a great question. If you're at a firm where you have to meet a minimum for hours/bonus, this really matters. Nothing worse than getting stuck on some shitty, time-consuming non-billable project.

There are plenty of Am Law 100/200 firms going through an identity crisis. What the legal industry needs is accelerated consolidation much more than what we have already seen. I scratch my head the number of firms who truly think they can position themselves to be global players getting the cream of the crop talent and legal work. Delusional thinking is pervasive in our industry.

Greenberg Traurig is on a mission to significantly increase their position and profitability. They make no bones about it. I know. I am senior associate in a Florida office. If your interested in GT, then be prepared to be worked hard. This is a good firm, but not a firm for everybody. There is a high weed out and quit factor, but I don't suppose that is too different than at a lot of big firms. Bureaucracy and administration are at a minimum here. If you have ambition and want to build a practice and a client, then there are few inhibitors. Politics are a reality, but they are in any law firm. A portion of our partners are world-class assholes, but that is the price of admission. Lots of quality people, lots of driven people.

Any thoughts on HK specifically Chicago?

9:47 --

Foley merging with who? 1000 attorneys at Foley merging with something big enough to take that over is going to be massive.

9:44:
this is not true. H&K does test its new attorney hires, but not its clerks and summers.

I know this is a day late and a dollar short, but GT is truly office by office. Every office is different. The firm was a small Miami outfit just ten years ago. They have grown into a massive firm with countless mergers, etc. With that, there is little "firm culture" but more of an office by office culture. Overall, not a great idea. They are ridden with scandals, see Jack Abramoff, and a massive implosion seems inevitable.

What potential merger partners for Foley? International or stateside?

Foley & Lardner should be aggressively looking for a way to expand their meager international footprint. And to have a more credible presence in New York. I don't know any specific firms F&L is talking too, but I am certain they have an open dialogue going with a number of firms. As do the majority of their peer firms (e.g., Jones Day, Kirkpatrick & Lockhart, MoFo, Reed Smith).

August 27, 2007 04:48 PM,

It all depends on what work you are doing and how long of a lunch you take. I normally take 1 hrs lunches/blog/web review, unless on trial. I shoot for a 85% efficiency rate, but often go as high as 90%-95% if I shorten my lunch, don't BS as much (e.g., working on a brief that keeps me glued to my desk 10 hrs straight).

That is, for every 10 hrs at the office, I look to bill about 8.5 on an average day (work longer, adjust accordingly). I know that I will surf the web, answer calls, eat, thake BTH breaks, and just BS for about .5 to 1 hr every day. Other people "work through lunch" and bill ALL their other time (bathroom, random people walking in your office, web, "watercooler talk, etc). Depending on the firm and client, that may be acceptable so long as it's not ridiculous (i.e., billing 1 hr to a client when you were really surfing the web = NOT acceptable; continuing to bill through that 10 minute conversation with a friend = more acceptable, etc...).

Just .02.

11:03 AM,

If everyone signing on to GT knows what they are getting, that is a fine model. But don't tell some kid that worked all night for you that you didn't want him anyway (or tell your fellow GT associates not to do the same). Its a dick move. Not to mention the fact that it brings up questions of the firm's ability to get complex work from quality clients if those clients are unwilling to pay for a real associate to do an important job that needs done quickly. Either that or GT has a policy of using inexperienced summers on important client matters with little to no time to review their work.

11:31 has it wrong. I summered at H+K and they tested everyone in my class.

The firm is a disaster for a million other reasons too.

What about Foley's Detroit office? Do they get good work ("good" for Detroit, that is)? Are the people good to work for/with?

If I had the unfortunate nightmare of being stuck in Detroit, then Foley & Lardner is far and away the firm I would want to work for. Miller Canfield, Butzel Long and Honigman are horseshit two bit firms with seas of underproductive partners doing low rate commodity work. Dykema is a modest notch above, but that isn't saying much. Foley is the cream of the crop by a humongous margin.

As someone who went to law school in southern California and now lives in Detroit, I can honestly say Detroit isn't that bad of a place. To be sure, it's got more than it's fair share of problems, but it has a lot of upsides as well. All that said, I concur with the last poster re law firms in Detroit.

Holland & Knight has been accurately described. It really is a McDonald's franchise type business model. Marginal lawyers doing marginal work making marginal money (by big firm standards). Greenberg Traurig if a loosely cobbled together federation of offices. Emphasis is less on practice team and more on office. Much more. There isn' t much of a unifying culture and partners will eat through the other guy's asshole to get ahead. It's a place to go if you are a middle aged partner with a good book of business who needs to make more money to pay for his lifestyle or meet the alimony demands of his ex-wife or left his ass for screwing his leggy secretary.

Florida is headed for a recession, especially in Miami where the housing market's in the crapper. The state of Florida announced massive budget cuts this past week due a huge deficit. Will this effect GT and HK since they're headquartered in Florida?

I worked at Foley for 3 years. Been gone for a couple years. If you want to work in the midwest and not live in Chicago, I think Foley is the best firm. Not Jones Day, not Bryan Cave, not Dorsey or Faegre, not Shook (or whoever is KC's "top" firm). I left Foley only because my wife got a great job out West, necessitating the move. The firm is business causal, gives you all the technology you could want, pays exceptionally well for Milwaukee's cost-of-living, and has a nice spread of solid practice areas. Being a Foley lawyer in Milwaukee means something, unlike being a Sidley lawyer means something in NY, even though they too are a good firm.

Is there a lot of interaction between the Foley offices? How easy would it be to transfer between them?

The strongest practice areas at Kaye Scholer are Litigation (Products Liability, Patent, Commercial/Business, IP), followed by Real Estate and Bankruptcy (tied). The corporate department is well regarded as a mid-market M&A practice, though perhaps not one of the "strongest" departments at the firm. Litigation is the "bread and butter" of the firm, it is highly respected and has the accolades and defense wins to show for it.

Any info about Steptoe's (very small) Chicago office?

I used to work at Foley Chicago and I can tell you first hand it's a joke. It's a mediocre firm at best that just happens to have 1000 lawyers.

Its amazing how these boards are full of such crap info. I summered at GT and have to say although the firm isn't perfect (none are) most of the stuff on here is pure BS. GT Miami may have had a sweatshop reputation several years ago, but I don't think any of their offices really have that rep now.

Anyone have information on how much Foley gives for clerkship bonuses? Is it the same in all offices?

I believe Foley gives $10k for State Supreme, $15k for Fed District, and $25k for Fed Appellate.

For anyone interested in bankruptcy work, Kaye Scholer has got a great department in that area. I know, I worked there. Cutting edge work and great colleagues who will respect your personal needs.

Has anyone had any experience with Foley's San Francisco office?

I worked in Foley's SF office and can confidently say it's a pretty good place to work. It's not on the top of the SF legal food-chain, but it does get some good work, particularly in the white collar crime and IP areas (the latter of which is buoyed by the Silicon Valley office and the firm's national rep re IP). It's also quite culturally progressive (but I suppose that's true of many SF offices).

Does anyone have info on H+K's new salary structure in the Chicago Office (or nationally)?

Aside from the money, is there any good reason to consider H&K (which still doesn't pay market) over a good boutique firm? Is the prestige still a factor at this point on the list?

I received an offer from GT NY. Does somebody who works there know whether business is on the up and up?

H+K has increased its salary to market, so the fact that it doesn't pay well is no longer an issue. Would any of the other people who criticized it like to be more specific about why it is a "disaster" or a "sinking ship"?

if you need to ask about business being on the "up and up," then you should run from it. most departments are quiet and associates are leaving in large numbers

It seems like no one has posted here in a while but I would love to find out what others have to say about Holland & Knight and whether the comments related to the firm as a whole or to specific offices.

Do they tell you about this drug test before or after you accept an offer?

I'd be more interested in more info on the litigation practice at GT, Steptoe, and Kaye Scholer in their DC offices.

I just accepted a job with HK NY. They pay industry standard. The drug test is written into the terms of your offer. It is a one time occurence prior to commencing employment. It should be a non-issue when applying for a job either because you don't do them, or because you know how to pass a drug test.

HK may not be top-dog, but unlike some firms mired deep in mortgage backed securities this firm is doing fine through the economic slow-down. Take that as you will.

What is their summer associate program like?

Anyone have any info. on GT's Vegas office?