Any info on Venable corporate?

Smelly Kelley Dry and Boring. Thast sums it up.

Gary Naftalis is a notable alum of Columbia Law School.

not sure why squire sanders is still on the list. they have made no effort to keep up with the last couple of rounds of salary increases (at least in nyc and dc), and the compression for the mid-levels is atrocious.

10:59: isn't there compression or below-market salary at most of the firms at this point in Vault? Especially for the ones, like SSD, who are headquarted off the coasts?

For my own part, I'm wondering how Baker is ranked in Vault ahead of SSD.

11.01 - good point.

however, ssd is still at 135k for 1st years. that's right - 135, and the mid-years are paid accordingly.

i think 4th years are at 180, which is well below the 210 that other firms are offering for that level of experience (albeit some of them - sutherland and vinson to name but two, get to 210 via the "deferred comp" concept). vinson is in houston - which is the gulf coast, but not east or west.

but if you are at biglaw in dc or new york as a 4th year you prob are making more than 180, which is what ssd pays its 4th years in those markets.

i am a mid-level ssd associate in one of the large east coast offices and can say that it is a pretty great place to work. but the pay sucks. we've been waiting for the firm to step up, but there's been no stepping. pretty disheartening.

at one point didnt kelley drye used to be a lot higher...what happened with them?

Venable has balls... of the bocci variety. And FLAVIA. Yum!

Please expand on the "smell....dry...boring" comment.

Anyone have any information on the work environment at Kelley Drye and Warren? I'm looking for more substance and less style.

11:06 -- SSD's New York office has 9 lawyers, according to their NALP form.

Is it really reasonable to expect a midwest-based firm with a tiny "160 market" city office to go ahead and pay market? If the office was big, I could understand. But even SSD's DC office only has 60 lawyers. Do they really compete with the big boys in town?

Working at Kelley Drye completely depends on the department. Litigation is fairly well run and the real estate department is very busy.

Also, they pay way below market bonuses. 15K across the board for 2000 hours no matter if you are a second year or eighth year associate.

Pretty sure senior associates at KDW get 25k base bonus - still below market, but better than 15k.

Thoughts on Baker and Hostetler? I'm pretty sure I just got inexplicably dinged by them.

Baker runs itself like a fraternity. They hire accordingly.

I heard Baker no-offered a substantial number of summers in one of its offices - among them were returning 2Ls who spent 1L summer there.

That's pretty sad.

Kelley Drye is a lifestyle firm. They don't expect you to make your 2000 billable hours your first year. The people there are amazing from what I hear, no one ever laterals out unless its geographic reason.

Last year KDW paid $17,500 to 3d-years, well below market. AmLaw has the firm-by-firm breakdown now: http://www.law.com/jsp/tal/PubArticleTAL.jsp?hubtype=Cover+Story&id=1188378153076

Tell me about Kramer Levin, my friend has a callback there

Tell me about Kramer Levin, my friend has a callback there

I worked at a top 10 Vault firm before and I was completely miserable. The difference between white shoe firms and KDW is that most people at KDW are not a-holes. Quite frankly, they are actaully pretty nice. In addition, they really don't give a crap as long as you are competent and bill 2k a year. If you bill 1850, they won't fire you. Litgation department is excellent, but I don't work enough with the other departments to comment on them.

The bottom line is that KDW may pay a little less, but you will have a life and you won't be stuck working with bunch of douche bag masters of the universe.

I'll be starting at Venable in mid-September. From my very limited summer associate experience (2006), it seems like a very good environment. Almost everyone I met was extremely friendly, and the work was legitimate and interesting.

Granted, all that could change when I start as an actual associate, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents. Oh, and the bocce court's great.

I'm not sure there are any "large" SSD East Coast offices. DC only has about 60 lawyers and they gave up on a summer associate program years ago. That really only leaves Miami and I'd be surprised if they are much larger than 60. A bunch of folks have left in the last year.

SSD's Phoenix office is in a free fall.

"I heard Baker no-offered a substantial number of summers in one of its offices - among them were returning 2Ls who spent 1L summer there.

That's pretty sad."

Baker no-offered 2 out of 3 2Ls in one of their offices this summer. Last year, in this same office, it no-offered 2 out of 7 2Ls (including one 2L who summered with them her 1L year). Interestingly, on Baker's Nalp form for this office, it claims it gave offers to 5 of 6 2Ls last year.

In addition to not giving offers, this office was also pretty cheap with its summer associates. The summer associates were rarely invited to lunch this year (maybe 5 times throughout the summer). On two occassions the summers were asked to pay for their own lunches (including one occassion when a senior partner invited the summers out for hot dogs at their own expense).

The summer associates were also worked pretty hard in this office. While other summers in this city were working 8 hour days and no weekends, the Baker summers were working at least 10 hours a day and many weekends.

If any 2L is considering working for Baker please be aware of this information. You can probably find a firm that actually gives offers to its summers and treats its summers well.

If you do happen to summer at Baker and return to work as an associate, things will not get much better. Baker matches market for first years, but then has a closed compensation system for subsequent years. If you aren't a favored associate, then you probably won't be getting a raise above $5,000 annually. Also, upper level associates do not receive market raises. You can have first year associates making more than upper level associates.

"I heard Baker no-offered a substantial number of summers in one of its offices - among them were returning 2Ls who spent 1L summer there.

That's pretty sad."

Baker no-offered 2 out of 3 2Ls in one of their offices this summer. Last year, in this same office, it no-offered 2 out of 7 2Ls (including one 2L who summered with them her 1L year). Interestingly, on Baker's Nalp form for this office, it claims it gave offers to 5 of 6 2Ls last year.

In addition to not giving offers, this office was also pretty cheap with its summer associates. The summer associates were rarely invited to lunch this year (maybe 5 times throughout the summer). On two occassions the summers were asked to pay for their own lunches (including one occassion when a senior partner invited the summers out for hot dogs at their own expense).

The summer associates were also worked pretty hard in this office. While other summers in this city were working 8 hour days and no weekends, the Baker summers were working at least 10 hours a day and many weekends.

If any 2L is considering working for Baker please be aware of this information. You can probably find a firm that actually gives offers to its summers and treats its summers well.

If you do happen to summer at Baker and return to work as an associate, things will not get much better. Baker matches market for first years, but then has a closed compensation system for subsequent years. If you aren't a favored associate, then you probably won't be getting a raise above $5,000 annually. Also, upper level associates do not receive market raises. You can have first year associates making more than upper level associates.

Ok, I now feel much better about the inexplicable ding from Baker. All of that info is surprising, given that the firm likes to present itself as offering an excellent QOL.

most associates in the corporate department at Kelley Drye didn't bill more than 1700 hours. There is a serious lack of corporate work and the partners do little to nothing to bring in new corporate work.

It is nice to be slow once in a while, but the serious lack of work has resulted in a very low morale.

I am an associate at Kramer Levin and love it here. The attorneys are genuinely great to work with and my quality of life is significantly better than that of friends at other firms. I have also had substantive work experiences and opportunities (like taking depositions, writing briefs, etc.) that junior associates at other firms tend not to get. All in all, it is just a nice place to work.

I came to Kramer Levin after working for a firm years at a top 10 firm. I am so much happier here. The quality of work is much better and more substantive. And the people are great. The partners are extremely smart and talented, but also decent human-beings, unlike the freaks and jerks at my old firm. I have more responsibility here and for the first time I feel like I'm actually a lawyer.

re: Baker -- is the alleged frat-house atmosphere firmwide or specific to certain offices?

re: Baker - does the frat mentality include an Elephant Walk or an Ookie-Cookie?

re: Baker - are associates forced to drin k Buttweisers?

I used to be an associate at Baker. Everything I have read on this thread is not the least bit surprising. The numerical statistics in the above comments lead me to believe I was in a different office than those referred to so far, but similar things happened here.

One Baker summer was the top summer recruit in my city this year, and she got dinged, along with others. I have heard no stories about any inappropriate behavior or poor work on her part. In fact, the only thing I have heard is that an associate took her and another female clerk to lunch one day and told them both something to this effect: "To make it at Baker, you really have to fit in with the culture, and you two just don't." This after they tell their summer clerk interviewees how collegial they are, and how they have this laid-back midwestern mentality because they are based in Ohio. Not exactly true, except the based in Ohio part.

My experience as an associate was that Baker is extremely cliquish, among partners and associates. If a clique does not endear you to them immediately, then forget it. I was a zombie working 60-80 hour weeks with people who saw me as literally nothing but a billing machine. Some associates were total gunners (the most painfully obvious kind), and others had such poor social skills that instead of saying hi in the hallway, they would literally look down at the floor, away from me. When I would get on the elevator to go to lunch, I would often encounter two or three other associates obviously going to lunch. Not only did they not invite me to join (ever), they wouldn't even say hi to me. And I'm not a social nerd. I had quite the opposite experience at at another firm.

I don't know what they pay in their New York office, but where I live, they expect New York hours in exchange for quite a bit less than New York pay.

Baker is one of those firms where you are either a "Baker person," or you're not, and it's hard to know until you get there.

Anonymous at 1:15p.m. said re Baker: "You can have first year associates making more than upper level associates."

This could easily be true, because Baker has a strict non-disclosure policy on salary discussions among associates. When I worked at a firm that had an open discussion policy, associates got much better raises across the board.

1:15: " Last year, [Baker] no-offered 2 out of 7 2Ls . . . . Interestingly, on Baker's Nalp form for this office, it claims it gave offers to 5 of 6 2Ls last year."

A friend of mine (not at Baker) encountered a similar situation . . . a partner informed him that he would not be getting an offer, then asked him to withdraw his name from consideration in exchange for a good reference when applying to other firms in the city.

Baker likely encouraged one of the "dinged" to withdraw his/her name from consideration to make the NALP numbers look better.

I worked at Baker and loved it. I was treated great by all of the partners and felt like I contributed as a low level associate. Take the above comments with a grain of salt.

What is it about these Cleveland firms? Both Baker and SSD have interesting issues.

I see you every time you walk down the halls. You recover from your zombie-like trance just long enough to avert your eyes away from mine. The semester has worn you down and what do you have to show for it? You are a stump of a man.

You hope I don't start up a conversation with you because you know it will lead to the inevitable. That talk and pitter patter about plans for the summer. Great summer plans of getting wined and dined in some far off city. Great plans of meeting new people and getting paid to do nothing. Because you didn't get a single fucking offer. And I can see the pain in your eyes.

I had more callbacks than you had first-interviews. I had more offers than the number of firms who would even deign to look at you twice. I've been to more cities in 4 weeks than you or your grandchildren will ever set foot in during their entire lives. Chicago, New York, LA. I can tell you which airlines fly from which terminals and how many feet you have to walk to get to the 6:50 flight to LaGuardia from the 5:30 flight from O'Hare. I've had more money thrown at me on a single dinner than you spent on food in an entire month. Because you had heard about the stories of excess. And they wouldn't even let you glance inside the window.

For me, normalcy begins again when I write my last exam for my last final of this semester. But for you, it never begins. I see you in the library paging through your casebook. I see you rush to each of your classes: a sense of urgency in the way you move. Because you lost the 1L race, and you'd like to move just a little faster for the 2L one.

The poetry reading is at the web page down the block . . .

5:49 - Assholes like yourself really suffer in BIGLAW. The mid and senior level attorneys spot you on day one. You will probably have a "good" summer because some senior partner in recruiting really likes you. But do not be fooled. When you show up as a first year only then will you realize that I am your boss and that senior partner forgot your fucking name.

Squire Sanders is a crappy law firm in a crappy legal market in Cleveland. 10 lawyers in New York about sums it up. Bryan Cave told us to pound sand up our ass last summer, and that speaks volumes as well. Phoenix is in the toilet too. But we like to pretend we are a playa. It makes dipshit partners walking around the office feel good to say we are an expanding national firm even though they don't have enough work to wipe their asses with.

anybody with thoughts on Baker / Cleveland? atmosphere? hours? health of firm?

I don't work at Baker or SSD but I'm in Cleveland. My impression is that SSD is very busy in litigation. I rarely see Baker in Cleveland in litigation; my sense is that they are more corporate in Cleveland.

The legal market in Cleveland is better than you would expect for a city of the size -- 3 Vault 100 firms headquartered there, etc.

Your mileage may vary.

Good question, 5:23. There are a lot of weird issues in Cleveland. I once got a summer offer from a top-5 Cleveland firm. After they knew that I decided to go somewhere else, they sent me the generic ding letter ("Thank you for your interest, blah blah...") pretending that they rejected me, rather than the other way around. Very strange. Very bush league.

Would the top 5 in Cleveland be Jones Day, SS&D, Thompson Hine, Baker, and Calfee?

If you're thinking of KDW, try Paul Weiss, Kaye Scholer or another firm of similar characteristics with a higher ranking & pay scale instead.

Bonuses are 15k across the board no matter the year. Years 4 and up do not get paid market.

"The people there are amazing from what I hear, no one ever laterals out unless its geographic reason." - Not true. The entire class of '03 has gone. Litigation has had a steady stream of departures over the past 18 months and many people are still practicing in the NYC area. Departures + lack of work = morale is at an all-time low.

"Litigation is fairly well run." - See previous paragraph.

KDW has been dropping in Vault rankings for the past 3-4 years and next year I doubt that it will crack into the Top-100. The past few years it has been at bottom of Associate Satisfaction Surveys, Women Associate Surveys, Diversity Surveys, etc. Name a poll, KDW is at the bottom.

People come to KDW b/c it is a "quality of life firm" but truth is you can get better pay (read: bonuses), the same hours and EXTREMELY better experience elsewhere.

Baker DC must have issues, NALP shows Baker DC still at 135K for 2007.

10:06, yes.

The problem with working in Cleveland is that partners working for a TTT firm in a TTT city have an attitude, because everyone else in that city does slip-and-falls and similar bullshit. Any self-respecting associate with decent credential would say, "Pay me more Motherfucker... I'm living in fucking Cleveland and doing this bullshit."

The sorting process of law school pedigree, grades, law review, while admittedlty imperfect, reliably predicts that anyone working at this level of the hierarchy are not the smartest tools in the legal tool shed. Thanks for playing, though. Enjoy telling family and friends that you are a *lawyer*.

2:30, where are you working?

"The sorting process of law school pedigree, grades, law review, while admittedlty [sic] imperfect, reliably predicts that anyone working at this level of the hierarchy are [sic] not the smartest tools [sic] in the legal tool shed."

Careless writing undermines any attempt at sarcasm. Thanks for playing, though.

@ 2:30 a.m.: Way to support the profession, a-hole. Some people make more money in their own firms than slaving away for these firms. Many can do it even by charging less and working fewer hours. So their clients and families benefit as well. BigLaw has its place, but it's not the end-all be-all of being a lawyer.

I have some questions about Venable if anyone out there is still reading this, particularly for those above who said they work at or are about to work at Venable. I interviewed with them on campus and it seemed like a good place, particularly for someone like me who is just below the middle of the GPA pack at a T14 school (already been rejected by a slew of DC firms).

However, our career services people and some 3Ls I knew last year put up some red flags. I was told that Venable did not make offers to 4 of the 20 summers in DC in '06. The NALP form says 18 out of 23, but I think that includes Virginia too. What really concerns me is that apparently those who did not get offers got virtually no explanation. I heard that something similar happened this summer, but no one was sure. I didn't know how to bring this up during the on-campus interview. I also heard that in general the summer program is disorganized.

So what's the deal?

"The bottom line is that KDW may pay a little less, but you will have a life and you won't be stuck working with bunch of douche bag masters of the universe.

Posted by: Anon | August 31, 2007 12:44 PM "

Really? When I worked there, I seem to remember running into more than a handful of douche-bags. What was backwards is that Kelley Drye has a culture where junior associates are required to address Partners formally - as "Mr" and "Ms."

I don't know in which century KDW worked at KDW, but no junior associate was ever required to address a partner as Mr or Ms X during my time there.

I have since gone on to a much higher-rated firm. I can say, however, that the KDW people are probably the most human people I have ever encountered in my practice of law. Unlike a lot of other places, the partners seem to have hobbies, outside lives and a sense of perspective on what they do. They also have a sense of humor and seem -- in the vast majority of cases -- to be well adjusted people. I can actually say that I enjoyed going to work there on a daily basis because of the people. From my experience at least -- KDW is a true lifestyle firm.

The real problem, however, is whether there is a long term future for lifestyle firms in the large law firm environment. Because KDW is such an old firm, many of the partners still have very traditional views on business development (ie very quietly), and the firm still has a bit of a mom & pop approach to administration. It really does run like a family in many ways. The secretaries have been there for years and administrative promotions come from within. The phone system is hilariously antiquated. Unlike a lot of places, there is no attempt to impress clients with a "throw money at tech" philosophy.

More aggressive partners in more successful departments are trying to make the firm a more efficient, modern and profitable place. A lot of the old KDW culture is inconsistent with that ethos, and there are some growing pains (and contradictions) as a consequence. The very junior partners seem aware of how the legal economy has changed and are getting with the program.

This is not to say that KDW is an unpleasant place to be. On the contrary, it was a very agreeable place to practice law. I found my work varied and interesting -- but not cutting edge. (This can make lateralling a little tricky.) If one can bill the requisite number of hours, it is a true lifestyle place. Very few weekends, rather few late nights. Lower pay and bonus, yes. But on a per hour basis you're doing very well indeed. I get the feeling that things are changing there, but that is inevitable when there is as much money to be made in practice as there is now.

Just want to comment on the poster who claimed one of the firms being discussed has no A-holes. A friend (really not me; my only knowledge of the firm comes from this friend.) worked at the firm touted by this poster and left after only a year because of a championship a-hole partner. My friend chose this firm because of its nice guy image. (This was three years ago.) This partner did all of the usual a-hole partner stuff and lots of it. Bottom line law students, no firm of any size is completely a-hole free. Watch out for them (even at supposedly nice places) and ask about your intended practice area. You won't really end up working for a firm. You'll work for a handful or less of the firm's partners. They are what will ultimately matter to you, not the general rep of the firm. Rep of the firm is a good place to start, but it's cold comfort if you are doing more than half of your work in close contact with the one a-hole at the otherwise nice firm.

I was a Baker & Hostetler summer associate this past summer. Personally, I had a great experience. I worked closely with Partners and went to lunch regularly. The firm is not lavish by any means--but the firm has no debt, so it is not in danger of going under any time soon. The DC office lobbies for Major League Baseball, so there are som cool opportunities there. DC also gave offers to every 2L summer. The Cleveland legal market is sophisticated simply because the the Cleveland businesses did not farm their work out to New York, so the client base for the larger Cleveland firms is strong.

That said, the firm is still paying below market except for Houston and New York, which are both at 160,000 to start. DC is going to up, but they are behind right now.

The experience was great for me, and I am going back next year.

9:22 here again.

JUst want to add that one issue with KDW is its department assignment system. First years are not assigned to their departments until the end of the year, which means that you could really, really want to do tax, but then find yourself assigned to litigation. This leads to some attrition among second years. Also, some of the smaller departments (like tax) don't take first-years every year. (The firm isn't always up-front about that, but they should be.)

12:25: Extraordinarily well-put. Also, if you're at an alleged "no assholes" firm, you will wonder if the assholes you're working for are simply assholes to you. They're not.

thanks, 1:05; glad you had a good summer

Any thoughts on Kelley Drye's corporate group? I hear a lot about their litigation but want to get opinions on their transactional work.

Anon 2:13:

You're right - quite a few summers in '06 didn't get offers, though I don't know if they didn't receive explanations or not. I can tell you that of the four summers who didn't receive offers, I wasn't overly surprised about three of them, and I wasn't surprised about the fourth when I heard the explanation.

From what I gather, the hiring committee struggled with this for a while, because they didn't want to be "that firm" that no-offered quite a few summers, but there was a legitimate concern about personality and/or work product for all four. I would say that if you work at Venable in the summer, you have decent social skills, and you show an interest in learning and doing the work, you're going to be fine.

I have no idea what this past summer was like, so I can't help you out on that, but I can say that the summer was somewhat disorganized, but I didn't think it was a huge deal. The assignment system could be tweaked to where people have a better shot at getting work they want, and there was a lack of communication before the summer started that bugged me a little bit, but I and pretty much every other summer at Venable last year mentioned this to the recruiting folks, so I imagine it's something they are working on.

Overall, though, I was really happy with the firm, and I'm looking forward to starting work there.

I can't speak for all offices but D.C. was an overall positive experience. This summer the D.C. office gave offers to every member of the summer class. Their compensation is still at the 135K level but through discussions with partners in the office that an announcement increasing the first year rate to the 150k to 160k level will occur during this recruiting season.
Working there was great. There is a lot of partner and associate interaction. Every member of the staff is extremely friendly. Partners and associates were extremely eager to take summers associates out to lunch. While the lunch budget was low for the D.C. market it went largely unenforced.
The work was excellent. Most the assignments weren’t the fluffy summer due diligence projects that friends at other firms were working on but actual substantive legal questions were you are working directly alongside a partner or midlevel associate. The hours were probably a bit higher than the average summer program (about 10 hours a day in the office) but with a 2.5 hour lunch and extremely social summers and associates it did not feel very strenuous.

Anon 12:07

Thanks for the input. I guess it's possible that it was just a coincidence that so many summers didn't get offers, but I'm still very skeptical. To me it still suggests a kind of chaotic place. If I'm lucky enough to get multiple offers when this is all said and done, I probably will avoid Venable.

I summered at Baker and worked there for 2 years. I'm quite familiar with the Cleveland, Houston, New York and Orlando offices (of those four, I worked in two of the offices, and got very familiar with the other two because I worked extensively with people in those other two). I agree somewhat with the comments about a frat-like atmosphere or being a "Baker person", but I found this to be more of a good thing than a bad thing. I saw it as an effort to promote social interaction and general friendliness in the office, which is a strong point at the firm in all four cities I've seen. I never saw anyone looked down upon or left out of things because they "weren't a Baker person". I work at a larger firm in NYC now, and the people aren't nearly as pleasant. Baker does lag behind the market a little bit in payscale in the larger cities. But on the whole, I can assure you that job satisfaction is high in the four cities I mentioned above, and I have heard that Columbus & DC associates are happy too. I've heard less than great things about LA and Cincy.

6:45, Baker's Orlando office isn't as chummy as you make it out to be. There are unhappy associates working here, but maybe we're just not "Baker people."

any information in particular on the houston office? how strong is litigation there?

9/4 4:02

Chaotic? LOL

(Not specific to Venable but an observation in general) I'm surprised that the summer offer ratio is so high, actually.

Here's some real summer associate tips:

1. Buy Elements of Style. Read the section on passive voice. Reread the section on passive voice. Commit the section on passive voice to memory. Apply to your memos.

2. That book with the blue cover on your desk, yeah, that one, that will tell you how to cite things. Use it.

3. It's called a spell checker. Use it.

4. It's a good idea to read the memorandum before you hand it in. Especially if you've failed to follow point number 3, above.

5. I don't care when you hand it in. Just don't lie to me that it's almost done when you haven't started it.

i'm at baker in cleveland and all i can say is they STILL haven't raised - despite the fact that Jones Day and SSD raised some time in February or March and Thompson Hine already raised in the last month or so. We are now sitting at the bottom rung for major Cleveland firms as far as pay is concerned (JD - $135K starting, SSD - $130K, Thompson Hine - $125K, Baker - $115K). Something is VERY wrong with this picture.

That sucks, but I also bet they will bump up your salary sometime soon. It's recruiting season.

Anyone know anything about Kelley Drye's billing practices? Are they honest with clients or do they pad bills?