Anyone care to express an opinion on the ranking of Jones Day offices with respect to how difficult they are to join?

Can someone explain to me Jones Day's mysterious compensation system?

I hate how Arnold & Porter's firm nickname is "A&P." It makes me think of the supermarket.

5:09(2) -- what's mysterious about it? They are cheap and they don't pay bonii. That's about it.

and Lat -- go take a cold shower or something, man.

Jones Day NYC has a reputation as full of scumbag litigators (as an aside, if you don't know where the term "scumbag" comes from, you should check it out - goes along with Lat needing to take a cold shower). They are sleazy, and are not very good. I'd never work there.

A&P (yes, supermarket-esque) recently raised to $35k, as they were hovering at $15k for a long long time. So, I'm not sure if they will go to $50k anytime soon. Also, the bar stipend is only $6000, which, I think, is pretty low compared to the other firms.

As for recruiting generally, they are not limited to the top 10 or 20 law schools. I know the recruiting classes have been pretty diverse in terms of what law schools they draw from.

One of my buddies works in the corporate department in the NY office of Clifford Chance on public equity & debt deals. He works ridiculous hours (even for BigLaw). Don't know if that's true for all departments, but I've heard that corporate department works its associates pretty hard.

Wait, people want to work at these low ranked firms?

MoFo should be at the top of anyone's list in Northern California

What's the word on Morrison & Foerster?

What are the hours like? Are the pay and bonus structures up to market? Is it a decent place to work?

Anyone care to opine about Milbank Tweed?

5:36 = prestige whore

5:36 - Loyola 2L would kill to work at one of these firms - there are probably scores of law students just like him out there

Anyone know anything about Jones Day SanFran office vs. MoFo SanFran office?

Jones Day Cleveland--hard to get an offer there?

Don't let its Vault rating fool you ... Milbank Tweed SETS THE MARKET for associate bonuses at the end of the year, at least they did in 2006.

Suck on that V1-23.

Scumbags aside, what's the word on Jones Day NY?

My understanding is that Mofo is paying market rate ($160k), with an hours based bonus, but they eliminated the 2000 hour bonus when they increased salaries. Raising salaries and eliminating the lowest bonus payout basically cancel each other out (unless you weren't going to make 2000 hours anyway).

Also, Mofo's explanation for their improved financials last year was that they worked their associates harder. Something like "we had additional capacity in our existing resources."

Everyone I know who works at Mofo SF seems to think that it is better than the other big firms in SF. But they also have the glazed expressions of those who drank the Koolaid.

Anyone know what MoFo's Palo Alto office is like? Are there lots of screamers, or is the firm laid back? Also, can a person get by with working the minimum required billable hours?

512:

the solution is to call it ArnPo.

Anyone know anyone named Anferny?

Where am I? I am way prestigiouser than these losers.

I have heard that MoFo only gives a yearly salary bump if you make your hours which includes a pretty significant hard nonbillable (article writing, speeches, etc) component. Can anyone verify?

A&P was slow to match last year when Shoprite went to $8.50/hr.

First, didn't MoFo used to be ranked a lot higher than this? I somehow thought they were, but know that they dropped a lot in associate satisfaction rankings this past year or two, so perhaps that affected these rankings.

Second, I think the deal is that you have to make 2100 hours at MoFo, 2000 of which must be billable (including pro bono) and 100 of which must be legal firm work (article writing, speeches, etc). I had heard that they recently changed their bonus structure, but I don't know what it used to be or what it is going to be now, just recall from comments that people were pretty upset (same as associates at Heller and Wilson Sonsini -- the change in the bonus structure would mean that top-billing associates were going to make less in total compensation than they would have under the former system).

Can someone tell me what the process for making partner is at A&P? I've heard that associates in a certain range of class years can choose to be considered for partner, but if they don't make it that year, they can never be considered again. Is this true?

I don't know, 7:22, but it's probably only the self-entitled associates who "think" they want a raise who also think that they deserve to be considered for partner in more than one year.

2000 billables usually equates to how many hours of time at work?

7:32-
Depends on your efficiency, your non-billable requirements (e.g., training, meetings, etc), and whether or not you bill for short distractions (e.g., bathroom, coffee refill, etc).

I recall a partner quoted in an article as saying that a really efficient associate might be 80% efficient, meaning 2500 total hours in the office to reach 2000 billable. I think the partner wasn't in touch with the realities of the billing process, and it is more like 2200 to 2300 total hours to hit 2000 for most associates.

Depends on the work you are doing too. Document review or due diligence is a really easy way to pass time and rack up the hours easily and efficiently. If you have lots of small assignments, it is a lot easier to get distracted and spend time surfing the internet.

Thanks very much, 7:45

Any comments on Jones Day DC or other offices like Pittsburgh?

Graduated around top 35% at top 35 school. 2nd year associate at 50-attorney firm in mid-sized city. What are my chances at landing a job as a lateral at a top 25(ish) firm in Dallas? Have some family in the area, too.

Jones Day is defending Chevron for paying the Nigerian military to torture and murder protesting civilians. They're losing the case too.
MoFo came last in a ranking of summer programs in SF, but the PA office is supposedly very nice.

How are Arnold & Porter and Jones Day possibly ranked ahead of Milbank? I'm not saying Milbank is Cravath, but you don't have to know much about the practice of law in NY to know that Milbank is a better firm.

Actually, I heard JD was winning that case about Nigeria. Those civilians were vizzity violent.

Actually, I heard JD was winning that case about Nigeria. Those civilians were vizzity violent.

Also, wtf is Milbank? Is that like Millberg? Or the military bank? Lamo.

I heard that MoFo SF has major "recruiting problems." Read: no fun Phantom of the Opera evenings out. Jones Day has much better summer associate perks. Their summers even get to party at a partner's sweet pad in Marin.

PS EIGHT NMORE YEARS@LOLOLOLOL

Jones Day is also defending Firestone re the use of slave/child labor in Liberia.

They do not pay market and there is no market bonus. Period.

And they're cheap cheap cheap. Summer lunch budget is around $30-$35 in NYC.

Wow.

6:05: Jones Day is pretty much the top of the pyramid in Cleveland. But there's a shortage of good students from top schools that want to come to Cleveland. What kind of school are you from?

If you are from a top-20 school or doing well at a midwestern school Jones Day (or one of the other big Cleveland firms) is quite achievable.

Clifford Chance's NY office is a really good place to work (though yes, hours are long like everywhere). Everything about it is and has been on the rise too.

8:45,

summer lunch budget was $45. That is on the low end for big firms in new york, but the number you cited was wrong.

Jones Day DC does not pay bonuses. They also do not buy associates blackberrys, and only reimburse a portion of the monthly fee when an associate uses their own money to buy the "not required" blackberry. They are not lockstep, and try to keep salaries a secret. Based on what I have seen (in my paycheck) and heard (from fellow associates) they are being pretty much at market in the junior years, but they start falling behind in years 4-6. I don't know much beyond year 6 because things have been pretty crazy the last two years with industry-wide salary raises. 10 year partnership track--it seems like most make it if you stick it out though. Normal associate years start July 1. First years are typically stuck immediately on doc review, you can't even choose what practice area until year 2. Billing rates are very competitive and Jones Day ends up securing decent cases. If you make it into the Issues & Appeals group (need to have a good clerkship), you will be treated better than the other associates in the office, starting with your pay and office. Jones Day does not use Microsoft Outlook (wtf?). It is very easy to transfer between offices, and if you want to move cities, its a 10 minute conversation. There is absolutely nothing around the DC office, not even a Subway sandwich shop. Bottom Line: Interesting work, but pay is noticeably below market especially when you factor in no bonuses, and quality of life is the same or worse than comparable firms.

Now that's a real office review. Thanks 9:18.

Loyola 2L ...you can get a biglaw. Look at the mediocre credentials of this person. She previously worked at Cadwalader.
http://www.kattenlaw.com/People/Detail.aspx?attorney=853

Orrick SF is the new MoFo

Milbank is all smoke and mirrors. The firm cuts cost where they can. You have to be 'seen' to be a hardworking person - you don't have to be the smartest. A lot of attorneys leave after 2 - 3 years. Blackberries - the firm can either supply it (ex-summer associate ones) or reimburse the cost. And I am sure the firm only increased the bonuses 2006 due to the fact they were utterly cheap during 2005.

Concur with 9:18.

If you don't make hours at MoFo, you don't advance with your class. Try being a first year two years in a row. Good times.

Clifford Chance settled a discrimination suit brought by a gay antitrust partner (in their London office, suit brought under UK law). I'm surprised I didn't see that on ATL or in some other legal blog. Apparently the settlement was in the millions (of pounds sterling). !

Yeah, but who doesn't hit the 2100 (2000 billables, 100 hard nonbillable)? If you only hit the 2100, I'm guessing you'd also be in trouble / not particularly well-regarded by the managing partners or fellow associates . . . .

Of course, depending on compression, some might feel they were better off keeping their first year salary and skating through year after year with low hours . . . .

Jones Day lost their SJ motions (orders here - http://www.earthrights.org/legaldocs/rulings_on_chevrons_summary_judgment_motions.html) in the Chevron case. I can't see them winning a jury trial. Even if you ignore all the murder and torture and shooting up villages, no juror with a car is going to be sympathetic to an oil company.

9:06, I'm at a T10, with a strong tie to Cleveland, but I'm in the bottom half of the class (and not even that close to the middle). I think that I've got a shot, but I don't know how willing they'll be to look past the mediocre grades.

fantastic review, 9:18 THAT is what these threads should be about!

Jones Day NY does pay bonuses (the only office to do so I think). Bonuses are generally market for the first few years. Around year 3 or 4, the majority of associate salaries and bonuses are still at or right around market. A small percentage at the top of each class (criteria is vague, but some combo of billables and quality) get above market compensation. There is a larger percentage at the bottom of the class that gets less than market. JD NY is the more liberal of the Jones Day offices. DC and the midwestern offices tend to have a more republican / conservative vibe. Diversity is lacking in most of the offices, although the hiring partners (at least in NY and DC) seem to be genuinely trying to increase the number of minority attorneys. DC and Cleveland are business formal all year. NY is business casual in the summer, biz formal the rest of the year.

9:06 - I think you have a pretty good shot coming from a top 10 school regardless of your grades.

12:01: Good luck - JD Cleveland is probably the most difficult office (in the states) to get into. A friend of mine near the top of class at a midwestern T-50 law school got hired at JD NY but couldn't even get an initial interview at JD cleveland.

6:05/12:01: of the Cleveland firms, my own experience is that Squire Sanders is the most grade sensitive. Jones Day may also be an issue. But there are other firms in Cleveland that, if you have strong ties to Cleveland, may be a better long term fit anyway.

It will, of course, help to have some sort of explanation for the grades, or something else good on your resume that proves your analytical/leadership skills.

"...you can't even choose what practice area until year 2." --9:18

Some people consider this a nice thing. It's a lot like being a summer associate again (without the posh lunches), you can try your hand at anything they post on a bulletin board type service. If you know absolutely what you want to do in a law firm, it's a bit of a pain, but for most people, defining the area they want to practice in takes a little more time than the one summer they worked for a firm. At least it did me.

10:28-

Not sure what you mean by "Milbank is all smoke and mirrors." The complaints you make can be said of any big NY firm.

All firms try to cut costs where they can. But anyone who has summered at Milbank will tell you that budget is never an issue for lunches or events. Even after an event, so long as there is a partner or associate there, drinks are on Milbank.

Since when was being smart a requirement to being hardworking? Any firm will like someone who works hard (i.e. bills a ton of hours) even if they're not the smartest person. But the joke's on them. Milbank has no hours requirement for bonuses.

A lot of attorneys leave every biglaw firm after 2-3 years. Milbank's attrition rate is no higher than any other big NY firm.

Milbank fully reimburses for new blackberrys. You don't have to use a hand-me-down from a summer associate.

Setting the market bonus in 2006 was probably a one time thing, but Milbank has always matched market compensation. I don't know how you can call a firm "utterly cheap" when they always pay market comp.

I concur with 12:06 a.m. - excellent info, 9:18. There is so much more available about firms via ATL than was available when I was doing OCI.

Some people get bonuses at Jones Day's other offices, but they are the minority, but some people do get them.

Milbank is not all smoke and mirrors but it is not a generous firm either.

Rather, Milbank is inconsistent in terms of what it is willing to spend money on, thus the reputation for being cheap. For example, on one hand, Milbank has the shittiest free coffee in the world, but you can buy lukewarm Starbucks in the cafeteria. On the other, Milbank reimburses staff $12 (within the city) or $25 (outside the city) for using public transportation to go home afterhours instead of car service. This is great if you live by a subway.

I used to work at Jones Day NY. Any associate that started there between 2001 and 2004, if they had any talent, is gone. The reason is because they firm does not pay market bonuses and in some cases, does not pay market base. A new managing parnter (i.e. King) was annointed in '02. He does not believe you have to pay NY salaries + bonus to retain NY talent. They have no problems with working you like a NY BIGLAW associate; they just see no reason to pay you as what your buddy makes at another firm working the same hours. Also, they've been losing major partners (at last count, head of NY Lit, head of NY lending, head of NY tax...all gone). The rumor is because they're not paying market to even partners. Oh, and the parntership track is not 10 years. Its really 11. And, for the first few years, you're a salaried partner. If you're considering them, I strongly urge you to think about it carefully. Its rather tough knowing you put in the hours and did great work but....did not get paid like your friends at other firms. Is there an upside? For example, in return for not getting a market bonus or market base, do you get a lifestyle firm? Hell, no. I got lucky and actually landed at a much higher Vault-ranked firm. Needless to say, I don't have to worry about getting paid. I know I will.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh!

NY salaries + bonus to retain NY talent.

So funy to hear these document monkeys refering to themselves as having talent. Newsflash- anyone can proofread a document. How many of these associates do actual lawyering- like going to court to argue or taking a deposition? Very few if any. You would get your head kicked in by a real attorney- even if that attorney graduated from Ave Maria Law School. Associates like these will find themselves at 40 with absolutely no real lawyering skills.

11:03 is wrong. He/she has no idea!

Funny as hell:

you may be correct on some counts, but that doesn't mean that you can't succeed as an attorney without "real lawyering skills." Questions of sustainability aside, it is entirely possible to have a lucrative and successful career in this environment.

Counseling clients as to the likely outcomes of cases is a real lawyering skill and avoiding the uncertainty of a trial is frequently sage advice. Moreover, the reason there are so many "document monkeys" out there is because bankrupting plaintiffs with "real attorneys" through onerous discovery is an effective litigation strategy in a large number of cases. Skills don't mean much if your client can't pay your fees to go to trial.

MoFo is a great place to work, at least in my office. The billable requirement is 1950, but it's the real expectation. They don't expect you to work more.

As for the statements that you don't advance if you don't hit your hours, I believe that the way it works is that if you don't hit 1950, you still advance with your class, but you don't get bumped up to the next pay scale unless you work at a 1950 scale the next year. In other words, you have to be below 1950 for 2 years in a row to lose a cent. Also, it's easy to get the hours because they count every pro bono hour, and just about everything gets approved. While there's plenty of work to go around, if for some reason you weren't getting enough you could pick up pro bono hours to make up the difference (and the firm LOVES it if you do pro bono). There is technically a requirement to get a total number of billable and non-billable hours, but I don't think it's enforced, at least I've never heard of it being enforced.

I know I sound like I'm in the recruiting department of the firm or something, but I'd never go to another firm, and I had offers from all of the California firms. It's really a great place to work.

12:31... what office are YOU in? I just left MoFo SF after a long long time in the corporate group. The comp is very good, but you need to work your ass off. (No prob if that's your thing, but don't buy the touchiefeelie shit about the firm. It's a sweatshop in PC clothing.) [BTW: the firm does really encourage pro bono work... if you can find the time.]

The corporate partners are pretty screwed up and don't really get along all that well. Mgmt is slowly shifting the center of gravity to NY. (In '01 or '02, Rob Townsend (head of the corp group) announced that the goal of the firm would be to be on par with Latham in terms of high-value corporate work. That remains to be seen.) So, the morale in SF is very low and they have trouble recruiting and retaining mid-levels.

Lateral corporate partners don't move there because the comp structure for corporate partners is below market for SF. The IP, IP-lit, Securities Lit and Tech Trans groups in SF are very strong and are made up of much nicer people. Likewise, the Palo Alto office is a much nicer place to work ... at least as far as corporate work goes. The core corp partners in PA were recruited years ago from a very selective and small San Jose firm. So the mindset there is not as freaky as that among the sf partners. No baggage about playing second fiddle to the litigators. No screamers, laid back, etc.

But, as it is with the other offices (and as I personally believe it should be), you're not gonna make partner unless you throw down on hours and sell your soul to the firm.

MoFo has an outstanding reputation as one of the really legendary firms in the country, both in terms of paying work, and high profile pro bono and community service. It is also (arguably) the preeminent firm in Asia and for technology and life sciences. But the office culture varies a lot by office, and some offices -- including San Francisco -- have refocused on profitability in recent years. As many partners say, that means that no one should come in to MoFo SF and not expect to work hard -- very hard. In MoFo SF, 1950 is the stated minimum for actual billable work (including pro bono), but the minimum hours you must account for to be in good standing is 2300. The "real" expectation depends on the department, but woe to the associate who bills just 1950 in the SF office, and who has aspirations to make partner in SF. In corporate or litigation, I would plan on billing 2100-2200 (just billable + pro bono) to be in the thick of things. The office is huge by California standards (nearly 300 attorneys), which can be great (lots of different kind of work assignments, excellent training, wonderful name recognition), or awful (more anonymous, too much variety in partner and associate management style, more bureaucracy) depending on who you talk to. The recent AmLaw Associate Satisfaction survey results present a pretty typical picture, from what I've seen.

Also, to correct a prior post, MoFo's summer program this year was outstanding in SF. No formal lunch budget, tons of really fun activities. There has been a renewed emphasis on recruiting in the office, and the Firm is devoting lots of resources to it.

1:26 - I've heard that about the SF corp group. I've also heard lit works hard there, but not like corp, but you could probably correct me. In my office people either work 1950 or 2100 (depending on if they want the bonus). Also, the point that you have to be in SF or work insane hours to make partner in other offices just isn't true. Everyone we've had up for partner the last few years has made partner, and none of them are huge billers (granted, they're more than 1950, especially in the years right before partnership becomes an issue, but not insane hours at all).

Traffic attorneys also go to court. That doesn't make them "real" attorneys. Take your degree from Ava Maria (what is that, like DeVry?) and I'll take mine from a Tier 1. I reguarly interact with "real attorneys" i.e. local counsel trying to get some peanuts for their clients. I tell them to fuck off or take some crumbs. They always take it.

The proof is in the pudding, my friend. Let's compare your salary to mine. If you're an attorney trying to get a few pennies from an insurance company, go ahead and call yourself a real attorney if that makes you feel better. Your kid is still going to some crappy public school and you're still driving your Honda and your wife is still complaining about the lack of a fourth bedroom and a good vacation. You will be doing the same shit at age 40 (dont' kid yourself). You have no history of success. That's you landed at Ava Maria. "Real" attorneys try to kick my ass and lose all the time so go for it. The guys who are 40 are either making bank at my firm or making bank as in-house to Fortune 500 companies. When guys like you hit age 40, you are still trying to make what a first year makes at my firm, while networking to get clients at the local Rotary Club.

Anon,
You have a sad outlook on life. Some of us may still be driving our Hondas at age 40 and sending our kids to public school. But, when we get home (at a reasonable hour) we will have a loving wife there to greet us and kids that coming running to see us. You will drive your sweet Mercedes home to your big empty house just in time to watch TV by yourself for an hour before you go to bed. If by some chance you have a second or third wife at that point she will be whining for a 7 room house if you only have five rooms and for a 10 room house if you have only have 7 rooms. Your kids only communications with you will be to ask for your credit card. My wife, however, will be happy with our pleasant, warm home. My vacation will be longer than your expensive one. I guess it never crossed your mind that people as capable and intelligent (but who are wiser) could intentionally choose a different path. Enjoy your miserable rich life.

In response to earlier question, at A&P you get two bites at the partnership apple.

1:58

Thank you for sharing your wisdom regarding how earning a good living precludes happiness, I now see the errors of my ways, I will sell my house, car and worldly possessions, give all of my money to some corrupt charity du jour so my wife and I can go share a yurt with three other couples in a commune while dressing our undereducated, home-schooled children in burlap sacks and teaching them that particular brand of delusional self-righteousness that makes eating dirt enjoyable.

I made 350K last year- net. I work M-F to about 4:30 6:00 p.m. on a long day. Go fuck yourself.

I don't believe that

I can only speak to the NY office of A&P. It is, by the way, definitely a satellite office. The firm's center of gravity is in DC, and NYers often feel like second-class firm citizens. The NY office for several years marketed itself a lifestyle office, and in the past that was the case. From what I hear now, however, it is no longer the case. Young attorneys are working more and more hours in order to pay for their increased base and quasi-market bonus. The firm is still a litigation-driven firm, and, in order to keep up with the NY market, there have been some sacrifices. There is a minimum billables of 1950 (150 billable equivalent) for the bonus. There are some dog cases, too. Big products liability (lead paint, delicious but deadly) and securities matters where you work directly for a partner... who works with partners from other firms around the country, each with their own teams, meaning you still only draft brief points and do doc review, and that's if you're lucky. When I was there it seemed like there was a lot of deadweight in the partnership, and there was a very unfriendly vibe, but never aggressively mean, more passive-agressive and impersonal.

1:33 ... (I'm 1:26, replying). I agree with your point about partnership. When I was there, I kind of had the impression that it was easier to make partner in the corp group in non-SF MoFo offices than in the SF office. Also, lit and corp both work hard ... it just depends on the market at the time. Mostly, though, the corp partners in SF are just weird. And that's not just my opinion, that's the consensus view of the non-corp partners in the office.

1:28 ... Thanks for sharing.

1:39, you really are an idiot. And you sound like some strutting teenager. Don't tell me you have the judgment and maturity required for real law. No "real," kickass attorney sounds like you do.

Grow up.

5:23 i can tell you for a fact that the bar stipend at A&P is 8,000, not 6,000.

12:10,

I can tell you for a fact that the A&P bar stipend is 6,000, not 8,000. Either that or somebody owes me 2k.

I want to correct something about MoFo, once and for all. The pay works like this: you advance to the next salary class each year unless you have "serious performance deficiences." Very very few people each year fall into this category. Billing below expectations is not a serious performance deficiency although of course someone with really low hours might have performance issues. I should know this better than anyone, as I am in charge of associate evaluations and have been since 2001. Send me an email at jherman@mofo.com if you have questions.

Janet Herman
MoFo
Director of Professional Development

What is MoFo's new bonus structure? These threads said that when MoFo, Heller, and WSGR went up to 160, they also changed their bonus structures, leading many on this and other boards to gripe that top billers would receive less total compensation than under the old system.

For that matter, what are the bonuses of any of these firms? I've heard A&P is very low, but Clifford Chance pretty generous (and less hours-obsessed for the dollar).

"How are Arnold & Porter and Jones Day possibly ranked ahead of Milbank? I'm not saying Milbank is Cravath, but you don't have to know much about the practice of law in NY to know that Milbank is a better firm."

Uh, because maybe somebody would prefer to work at a Top DC firm than a second tier NY firm?

7:50: You can't be serious. Maybe you're a little confused because Milbank's DC office is small (I guess the firm should launch a satellite in Denver- then our "prestige rankings" would surely rise). Few people in NY (MLB to your AA) have even heard of A/P. Sorry.

What Janet Herman says is true -- I was a MoFo associate and billed significantly below 1950 one year and my salary was not affected (obviously no bonus, though). This was during the low point of the SV market after the bubble burst. Note, though, that MoFo pushed out many, many corporate associates during that time, ostensibly because of "performance deficiencies", but in reality because there was not enough work to keep them busy. Instead of openly laying off associates and receiving the negative publicity for it like Cooley did, MoFo pushed people out on the sly and refused to own up to the truth. Obviously this isn't an issue now, but that's the kind of place MoFo is, at least in SF.

By the way, the comment posted by 8/21/07 1:26pm is right on in describing the MoFo SF office. Corp. partners there are freaks, jerks or sociopaths, morale is generally very low among associates, and very few mid-level or senior associates stick around. Part of this is a result of my prior post -- MoFo SF (& NY) gutted their corporate departments of associates during the dot com bust, and they still pay the price for it. To be fair, though, almost every major firm, especially on the west coast, needs more mid-level and senior corporate associates, because so many go in-house and so many were pushed out during the dot com bust.

As 1:26 says, the litigation and tech trans groups of MoFo are much better places to work and are well respected, although even there it really depends on who you work with -- there are some fantastic litigation and tech partners, and some truly terrible ones who are notorious for killing associate partnership chances. But all-in-all, much better and happier people (associates and partners) in these departments.

And I call bulls%*t on 1:28 -- MoFo SF's summer program this last year was disastrous, and that's the universal consensus I hear from the associates who are still there. A surprisingly low number of summers are accepting offers to come back. Associate satisfaction rankings are also way off. MoFo has become a much more profitable firm over the last couple of years, but only by riding associates hard.

This may sound surprising after this post, but all-in-all I consider myself very fortunate to have worked at MoFo -- I was lucky enough to work with some great partners, the associates there are mostly very cool people, and they give responsibility early to associates who can handle it (although again, depends on the partner). If you're going to work at BigLaw, I think MoFo is about as good as it gets outside of the SF corp. dept.

"7:50: You can't be serious. Maybe you're a little confused because Milbank's DC office is small (I guess the firm should launch a satellite in Denver- then our "prestige rankings" would surely rise). Few people in NY (MLB to your AA) have even heard of A/P. Sorry. "

IT'S NOT A NEW YORK RANKING. IT'S A NATIONAL RANKING. Jesus. Being 15th Best in NY or whatever Milbank is doesn't give it much of a national cache.

Vault tabulates the prestige scores in the following way: "The online survey asked attorneys to score each of the 126 law firms on a scale of 1 to 10 based on its prestige. Associates were asked to ignore any firm with which they were unfamiliar and were not allowed to rank their own firm."

Though I had never heard of A/P until this thread, I will take your word that A/P is a reputable DC firm. Of course, there are fewer prestigious firms in DC. So, it's not surprising that associates in DC gave a A/P a higher score than associates in NY or LA gave Milbank (much more competition).

National cache? A/P has one big office in DC and is unheard of in other markets. Oh, except perhaps Denver. Milbank's office in LA is well-respected and its international offices in Europe and Asia give the firm international cache.

Milbank is well known as a middling NY firm that is not selective in whom it hires. Its other offices are never mentioned by anybody in any context.

I can't really address your comment that you'd never heard of A&P (or your idiotic impression of A&P's offices in other markets) -- you just seem like a guy who doesn't know very much about law firms.

Milbank is well known as a middling NY firm that is not selective in whom it hires. Its other offices are never mentioned by anybody in any context. When people think of Milbank and answer surveys like this, they think of people at the bottom of their law school class.

I can't really address your comment that you'd never heard of A&P (or your idiotic impression of A&P's offices in other markets) -- you just seem like a guy who doesn't know very much about law firms.

My idiotic impression? I merely pointed out that it was a DC firm that has no influence elsewhere. The firm has 86 attorneys in its NY office and 58 in LA. I can't speak to the firm's reputation in that cutting edge legal market of Denver. Vault didn't bother to survey associates there anyway. In what sense is my impression inaccurate?

I won't even dignify your comment about the firm's hiring practices. What would a person living and working in DC know about Milbank's selectivity in NY? Look, I don't doubt that the A/P name goes further in DC(so perhaps your perspective is skewed) but that's just not the case in NY or globally. Sorry.

1:02. Milbank is a bucket shop. Now go back to chasing commas, you goon.

"I made 350K last year- net. I work M-F to about 4:30 6:00 p.m. on a long day. Go fuck yourself."

Riiiight. You are so full of shit. Now, go back to suing Aetna or whatever on a slip and fall case. Oh, and I made more than that as an associate last year. Go back to that shitty little douche bar you hang out at and explain to all those people why you're a real lawyer while my lil' first year out earns you. Douche.

Milbank is just not a good firm.

"What would a person living and working in DC know about Milbank's selectivity in NY?"

Uh, maybe because I went to Columbia and Milbank hired several of the very worst students in my class? LOL. Your firm is a joke. Stop trying to start a rivalry where there is none.

does anyone know anything about MoFo LA or Milbank DC?

Milbank? LOL - A&P is one of the big 3 in DC but again, that's in DC. No one will quibble with A&P's standing in DC (I summered in DC) but to compare it with Milbank in NY is idiotic. Milbank is far more profitable with an impressive stable of "NY" clients (read big banks). Milbank has a far superior reputation in NY, which whether you like it or not, is the legal capital of the world. It also has a great rep in California. Like many of the most profitable NY firms Milbank hasn't bothered to set up satellite offices in secondary markets (i.e Denver or McLean VA) and concentrates only on the world financial centers. You are also off base with your selectivity point, Milbank is just as selective as its peer NY firms, which is to say it is very selective (your personal experience with some 2L aside). and if the whole law thing doesn't work out for you, here is a promising lead for you...http://www.apsupermarket.com/employment.asp

I agree that Milbank is just as selective as its peers - Schulte, Cadwalader, Dewey, Proskauer, Stroock, Fried Frank, etc. That is to say, it's not selective. If I wanted to come back to NY, which I do not, I'd be able to go to a heck of a lot better firm than Milbank.

Anyway, I don't have to convince you. Vault is a prestige survey, and, while surely imperfect (and any bias there is seems to favor NY firms), the respondents agreed with me, not you. That has been true for every single year of the survey, as far back as they are posted on the website.

I am so sorry you are disappointed with the results. Perhaps if they stopped hiring so many idiots like you they could step things up a notch.

A&P is the firm clients go to when:

1. You are in federal court

2. You went with another big firm

3. You got your clock cleaned in district court

4. You need somebody who can make the hail Mary pass to win on appeal

This is a prestige score ranking. What about QOL? How would the order change, if at all? Also, which office would be best/worst? (QOL meaning benefits, min hours, cruel partners, cool associates ...)

MoFo and Milbank are both supposed to be pretty good QOL.

A&P is on the A-List, Fortune Magazine, the Washingtonian and Working Mother's best places to work. The work is interesting, the people are mellow but the hours are long, although nothing like V5 firms in NY.

Jones Day is not called Jones Days, Nights and Weekends for nothing.

I know nothing about Clifford Chance.

I just go to A/P recently as a lateral. The people have been great, the offices are decent and I think they treat their associates just fine. I think that as long as your pay is close to market and you like your colleagues, everything is fine.

I am a bit concerned that we don't have more of a national footprint, but the strategy is to no verge for critical mass & economies of scale (think Reed Smith, K&L Gates) and grow slowly thru group acquisitions. This method is not conducive to spreading geographically.

And for those thinking of going into a branch office of a large firm in another city, make sure your office has notable size or you will be treated as a 2nd class citizen. I have personally experienced it at another job. Said another way: tie goes to the home office.

I summered at MoFo SF. The office is going through a huge identity crisis. Some want to be NYish, so others want to be lifestyle. Most associates, especially junior, work very hard. They do have some crazy partners also.

On a side note, it is perhaps the only firm I've heard of that works their summer associates pretty hard. Summer associate morale at the end of the summer was pretty low. I suspect a pretty low offer acceptance rate.

Mo FO is a great firm, if you are complaining about working hard, you shouldn't work at firm.

Why are people content with doing the minimum possible to get by and get your bonus... seriously, if you don't want to work hard, don't work at a firm... for that matter, your not cut out to be a great lawyer. You might be a good lawyer, but you will never be great.

4:34: your post really lacks perspective. First, the "minimum possible to get by and get your bonus" at MoFo SF is 2100 hours. 2100 billables is hard work in any market, by any standard. Plus, as to MoFo in particular, it's not unheard of to be working 2200+ billable hours and still be told you're not pulling your weight.

Finally, the notion that all "hard work" is the same is ludicrous. 2200 thankless hours micromanaged by controlling partners, or peppered with lots of last minute weekend assignments, is very different than 2200 predictable billables on a team where people encourage time off and cover during absences.

I'm at MoFo and while I work hard, people are encouraged to take time off and others do over for them. I am not micromanaged and I don't think any junior associate in my group is micromanaged. While 2100 hrs doing doc review is not the same as 2100 writing motions, taking depositions, etc., I would rather be doing the latter and learning valuable skills.

Anyone have any info about MoFo San Diego culture/lifestyle?

Also, I've heard that the billing requirement is lower for the patent group. Is that true, and if so, what is the requirement?

Wow, "anon". You sound like a miserable human being. You must have a LOT to overcompensate for.

Are the comments about Milbank limited to the NY office? Does anyone have any info on the LA office?

Any info on life/culture and pay at Jones Day Chicago?

Any comments on MoFo culture in the NYC office?