I didn't accept because the associates I talked to all told me how they slept in the office three nights a week.

Little did I know that was below average in NYC.

Hm, we all know about the Refco deal, but I dispute that associates at Mayer Brown are unhappy. The at-work-by-10 directive is as much of a joke in the office as it is anywhere else, for a start.

Oh, and we can totally check email from our work computers...

There's an at work by 10 directive?

"There's an at work by 10 directive?"

Yeah, but don't worry, all the partners that initiated that directive have since left the firm. Oh, I guess that's a different problem all together?

What's Ropes's clerkship bonus? Are they at $50k in Boston?

Any Ropes info, particulary NYC?

anyone know anything about hogan's education practice group?

12:47 is clueless. The firm has larger problems than any one of the many lawsuits it is currently facing. No one in the know would dispute that most associates at Mayer Brown are unhappy. The New York office is absolutely falling apart and there is major infighting with Chicago. They are not very profitable.

The transition to a two-tier partnership has been handled horribly, and most income partners or those about to be income partners have absolutely no desire to try to become equity partners. Structured finance and a few other groups are extraordinarily profitable but they have mostly worked their associates into a revolt because most are already at 2200 hours or so for 2007 and they have no desire or incentive to work anymore. Chicago corporate is strong, but there are so many assholes, even after assholes were de-equitized and forced out, that they can't retain associates and mostly are filled with clueless foreign associates and laterals from second tier firms and schools. It really is unclear who will be around to do anything with this firm when the current older partners are gone. Many of those in favor with the older partners are just lame yes-men unable to do anything other than poorly but obsessively service existing firm business.

And the kinds of things that happened in Refco, and the other thing they are being sued for, and the thing that they ended up paying millions and millions a few years ago for, happen all the time. A few more lawsuits like this and the decline is going to accelerate.

And this all ignores the major cross-Atlantic infighting that Maher is driving.

It might also be indicative of troubles at Mayer that the two major competitors whom they always match in terms of salary, Sidley and Kirkland, have both raised clerkship bonuses, and this time around Mayer is holding back. In the past, they've matched Sidley and Kirkland within a week. Not so this time around, which is odd for a firm that has traditionally prided itself on clerks and has the most well-respected appellate practice outside of D.C.

I'm also kind of surprised that Hogan hasn't matched on clerkship bonuses yet. They moved quite fast on the salary match in the spring.

Geez, shut up about clerkship bonuses. MB hasn't raised because they already have plenty of nerdington clerks who will come there anyway. The fact that so many are so concerned about clerskship bonuses that have such a minimal important over all is just pathetic.

1:00/1:17, I'm guessing it's your lack of grammatical skills that held up your clerkship application.

No, Ropes is still $35k in Boston. Sigh.

What Fried Frank like? I've heard of shared offices for associates, daily time records, but reasonably sane hours and interesting work.

F cadwalader.

Can some associates or ex-associates at CWT say why it sucks so much? Is it really worse than any other NYC large firms? And if it's so bad, then why is it going up in the Vault rankings?

Curious - do a search on CWT here and you'll be busy for hours reading dirt, rumors, and gossip about CWT. Then do a general search for articles in legal periodicals about their business approach of recent years and your eyes will be opened. Do not think that all that success means the place operates likes any other law firm. You have been warned.

"No one in the know"? I work here, dickwad, and I do indeed dispute that most associates are unhappy. The work is interesting, the people are nicer than anywhere else I've worked, and while hours can grind on you when you're trying to close a deal, that's two bad weeks every two months, which they're more than happy to make up to you between deals.

I certainly don't know what you're referring to with the "infighting" allegations, either with Chicago or London; maybe the fact that I don't have access to the secret phone line where partners shout at each other across continents is what puts me out of the loop.

For what it's worth, I don't work at MB and I never have, but the people I know there have seemed happy in the past.

Also for what it's worth, they're terrified about the future, because the reason they've always been so happy is because the firm hasn't been totally focused on profits (maybe just 90%) and now that "family culture" seems to be dying pretty rapidly, i think that the mayer brown of 3 years from now will most likely be vastly different than the mayer brown of 3 years ago. But that's all speculation at this point now isn't it ...

Anon 1:00 is the clueless one. MB is doing fine. And when it's a top 5 global law firm in a couple years, you'll wish you had lateralled in while they would have actually looked at your resume.

CWT gets a bad rep on the blogs but it can almost certainly be attributed to a bitter former capital markets associate. If you work in the capital markets department, life can be brutal, but the rest of the departments are no different than those at any other firm. I'm a junior lit. associate and though I do have to do doc review, my experience is no different than that of my law school friends at other firms. People in the global finance and financial restructuing departments seem to be pretty well adjusted and both of those departments rank pretty highly in the vault practice rankings. So take the blog gossip for what it's worth, but realize that these "tipsters" have their own biases.

CWT has lost 25 out of 50 class of 2005 associates that started on Sept. 19, 2005, and I'm sure they'll lose another 10-15 after late Jan's bonus payout.
While, they do attract lateral partners with top $, they have also lost several partners in the past year or two to other big law firms in the same city- and I'm not talking about under-producing one's.
They have also had two partner-related sexual incidents. One of which was asked to leave, and the other just had his secretary re-assigned.

Hi, MB recruiting director!

Apparently, CWT has invented the ground breaking business approach of using 7.5 underlings per equity partner. Wow, what ingenuity. Add in the mind blowing business idea of a longer partnership track with associates eligible for "special" counsel after 9 years. Alert Business Week!

It really does suck that much worse. Every ex associate who has gone to another firm realized that the delusion that all firms are the same was merely delusion. The mercenary partner hiring and brutal leverage create a miserable environment.

Great launching pad to do securitization though. As yourself, "what is it that I really want?" If your lifelong dream is doing CMBS at an investment bank then maybe its your deal. Be warned though, you will die a little inside every day you show up.

I know 2 CWT associates who started in September 2005 and June 2006 respectively...capital markets. Both left in the spring of 2007. Associate turnover is massive......do the math.

On the bright side you can lateral out of there.

*The female was cute but mediocre. She must have blown someone to get a job there.

No time to refute all the gossip this time - thanks for egging it on Lat. I work at CWT and like most associates, am having a good experience with the place.

Everything is great at Mayer Brown

http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=127997&d=122&h=24&f=46

CWT is hiring tons of lower tier mediocre people.

anon 2:02p: put down the crack pipe. MB going to be global 5? you might want to consider what you are up against. you are delusional if you think a no-name shop like MB is going to amount to anything more.

anyone want to comment on bonuses at Hogan? I hear they are sometimes non-existent; even the good ones are well below market.

Interesting that all of the criticisms relate to capital markets. Do any of you know anything about practicing transactional law? CMBS is totally commodity work; it's going to suck anywhere you go for the same reasons it sucks at CWT. 2:30 -- you're a moron for not knowing that.

Look, read all the gossip and message board crap about CWT you want, but I've been here a number of years. Outside CM, the hours are the same, if not better, than the rest of biglaw, the people are personable and engaging and the firm generally treats everyone well in terms of perks and comp (there is never any doubt that CWT will match top of market, so when NY hits 190, CWT will also). The level of work you do depends almost entirely on your competence. There are definitely issues, but if you ask for specific associate gripes, they are either fairly inane (box passes!) or the same as other firms (indefinite chances of partnership, some partners are dicks, etc.). All I know is that of everyone I went to law school with that lives in NY (which includes many people working at top 1-25 firms), I have the most reasonable work situation of any of them.

the misery is not limited to cap markets at CWT and the evidence bears that out. ask a CWT corporate, global finance, tax or litigation associate about turnover.

2:45 -- turnover means junior associates are gullible enough to think they'll be happier elsewhere; it doesn't mean they actually are. It is the same story at other good shops.

most last place finishes in the amlaw midlevel survey.

most bottom 10 finishes in the amlaw midlevel survey.

most bottom 3 finishes in the amlaw midlevel survey

11th most unhappy midlevels in 07 with a 95% reply rate.

Can you guess who I am?

law students deserve the truth.

most last place finishes in the amlaw midlevel survey.

most bottom 10 finishes in the amlaw midlevel survey.

most bottom 3 finishes in the amlaw midlevel survey

11th most unhappy midlevels in 07 with a 95% reply rate.

Can you guess who I am?

law students deserve the truth.

2:55. You are a jealous individual working at a DA's office.

I find it telling that all the pro-Mayer sniping is mostly saying that the firm is "doing fine" and "associates are happy," without addressing the points others have made. I am not trying to play the "you don't know what's going on because you're too young" card, but if you aren't aware of any of the Chicago/NY or US/UK conflicts, or don't understand why so many are concerned about the way that Maher is running the firm, then you simply aren't informed enough to comment.

Almost all of the people I came up with, many of whom ultimately made partner, have left. If a place is losing partners (especially young partners) involuntarily the way Mayer has been losing them, then something is going on.

The Salpeter departure is very telling. That guy was the highest paid person in the firm, making more than $4MM/yr, in the early 2000s. They tried to drastically cut his points simply because he didn't have a lot of active cases at the time, and he called their bluff and left. This is a guy who has generated literally hundreds of millions of dollars in business over his time with the firm, who is still one of the best known and respected litigators in the country. They tried to halve his compensation and he left immediately. That would be like Dan Webb leaving Winston or Sprayregen leaving Kirkland for another firm. And Mayer, mostly Maher, let it happen without a second thought. That says something.

You know, I always talked about how great my firm was, too. Until I left.

The only thing that matters is the actions of the attorneys. And the actions say Cadwalader is miserable, which is why it has one of (if not the) highest turnovers of any firm.

And lit-guy. You make work the same, but because partnership is based on a strict book of business standard, in a few years when you're still grinding it out, your friends at other firms will be partners, because you don't have a chance of having the same book of business as the transactional guys.

I know people that are happy there, too. But I also have met a guy that will eat scissors just so he can have surgery because he loves going under the knife...

exactly! thats why you have so much time on your hands. sorry CWT didn't give you an offer and now you are stuck making less than the city garbage men.

Okay, so CWT and Mayer have been covered, any opinions out there on the other firms listed? I am most interested in hearing about Ropes in Boston.

I knwo a mid/senior associate in DC that swears it's the greatest place on earth. THey're a little "cultish" that way. And it's a "forever" type of job ... which I think is a good thing ... but to each their own ...

Exactly - 3:00. I doubt all the hate on CWT is coming from other biglaw associates, who also have the same type of jobs. Its probably from nerdy out of work bottom of the class types who couldn't get any job, and now are like "high turnover, go ask somebody, CWT sucks"

Why is CWT bad? Absolutely no chance of partnership. Never. Ever. Don't know the percentage, but it would be interesting to see how many home-grown partners they have, because I never met one. If you don't have a book of business, you're not making it there. No such thing as a "service partner". Associates know this, and thus the lack of morale (couple with non-existent personal relations or respect from partners)

CWT hires peeps from SUNY BUFFALO LAW...enough said

2:55 - If you look at the amlaw midlevel survey, you'll see that cadwalader is right at the same level as cravath, skadden, et al who do the big-deal securitization work. Let's take that and then try to figure out the difference between correlation and cause. The cause of the long hours is the nature of securitzation and deals, not cadwalader.

As for the other departments, I can't speak for glob. fin. or fin. restr., but the litigation group has a better quality of life workload than any other firm I've seen. The training isn't going to match what you'd find at Cravath, but very few firms will.

The point is, one or two former associates or rejected applicants (or as is my guess, a legendary summer associate no-offer) who comment frequently on the same string as different people are not going to be an accurate source of information.

I hang with a number of MB associates and I don't get the impression they're unhappy at all.

Ropes really needs to raise to $50k in Boston for its clerkship bonus. It's only a matter of time before that happens anyway, and I thought Ropes was trying to establish itself as a market leader.

3:12, you're off base. First and foremost, Cadwalader's competitors for big deal ABS/MBS work are McKee, Thacher, Sidley, and Orrick; Skadden does do some of this work, though most of the work done by their structured finance group is CDO related; Cravath, on the other hand, really doesn't do any (check the American Lawyer's Corporate Scorecard).

True, the structured finance practice groups at each of the above do have a lot of turnover, though Cadwalader’s rate (from what I know) is above average. In full disclosure, I do not work at any of the above firms.

If you dislike CWT you must be an unemployable sub-garbage man...or a partner at another firm, or in house counsel, or an investment banker...

All of the hundreds of ex CWTers and their who realized how bad it really was are really just jealous. Keep telling yourselves that juniors, because you will leave and look back on your time with regret.

CWT: as miserable as Cravath, but without the prestige.

3:24 - and your basis for this opinion is? Let me guess - I should ignore my own first hand experience and use as the basis for my opinion a bunch of venom-filled internet trolls' opinions.

Clearly the ex-CWT associates are very vocal about how bad CWT is but as a senior associate, I have no complaints that I wouldn't have working at any other top 30 firm in the city. All the young (under 30) Alley McBeal and Keanu Reeves (in Devil's Advocate) wanna-be's who went to law school thinking they would live a glamorous life doing interesting legal work on a 9-6 schedule were not ready to be slapped in the face with a 12 hour work day. Those young associates who I've come across that expected to work hard (and be paid well for it) are generally happy with the quality of life and work that CWT offers. The vast majority of CWT associates do not work weekends. An even greater majority do not pull all-nighters more than twice a year. I will say that the Capital Markets associates get worked harder on average than most other groups and my educated guess is that the majority of CWT bashing comes from the alumni of that group.

I think where Cadwalader started to get such a bad rep is with project rightsize.

I mean, from a business perspective, it makes sense, it's basically a bank. The problem is that in order to get their, they've cut entire practice groups. They've made such a broad based statement to the world that the only thing they care about is churning as much profit as possible. That being the case, the only way to do it is to get more work out of less associates. They are the only variable to work with. At least some other firms, while they may have the same views, don't make it so obvious, or make sure that their associates are so well aware of it.

I mean, I give the firm credit for not trying to trick people into it, associates know exactly what they're getting when they go there, but i'm not sure that saying it's "no worse than anywhere else" is being realistic either.

Now, all of my friends don't love their BigLaw jobs, but the ones that hate theirs the most, seem to be at CWT.

any information about ropes and gray NYC???

Ever notice how everyone who criticizes CWT has a "friend" who worked there? Why no first hand experience as the basis for the hate?

any information about ropes and gray NYC???

Ropes and Gray - I heard if you work there you should get yourself a rope and hang yourself until you see gray. That is the color you see right before the white light. If you survive, working there will never seem that bad since you've now survived a near death experience.

I didn't realize I was criticizing it. I thought I was just pointing out where I believe everyone's apparent disdain came from.

I think that the public in general has the perception that the only thing the firm cares about is making money, and that they treat associates in correspondance with that thinking.

And yes, I do have friends there, I happen to work at a competitor. I would work at Cadwalader for what it's worth, mainly becuase I'd like to see for myself just how bad it really is ... I'm a bit of a crazy person that way ...

Comparing Salpeter to Webb or Spreyregan is laughable. People went to Kirkland for him, and people go to Winston for Webb, Salpeter handled primarily institutional work that isn't going to leave with him. Mayer Brown has some real issues, but I'd put Salpeter leaving near the bottom of the pile.

3:32--"Ever notice how everyone who criticizes CWT has a "friend" who worked there?"

Well, at least those criticizing CWT don't evidence the fundmental misunderstanding of transactional work shown by 3:12, lumping it all together as "big-deal securitization work". If that's the functional knowledge of the average CWT junior, I really feel sorry for the CWT senior associates having to work with such dreck.

3:27 I know more about CWT than you can imagine in that tiny mind of yours, but thanks for your concern.

Head back to 19 get those resumes duplicated.

Also curious about Hogan's bonus record. I've also heard that they are meager compared to similar firms.

"3:27 I know more about CWT than you can imagine in that tiny mind of yours, but thanks for your concern.

Head back to 19 get those resumes duplicated. "

Excellent - you've gone from making baseless conclusions to making outright insults in lieu of real argument. I'd like to refute your points, unfortunately you don't make any. You just call me stupid, and say you know more than I.

Its kind of nice to be debating you. It would be like racing someone who has no legs.

The problems at Mayer Brown are way overblown. Going to a two-tiered partnership was the right move for them. Of course you're going to have unhappy lawyers whenever you deequitize people. But who really gives a rat's ass. It's the underproductive people and the anchors that are doing all the bitching. If they don't like it, then they are entitled to leave. But good luck with that, because other firms are going to beat down the door to hire middle aged partners with marginal books of business and so-so productivity.

This scenario applies to a lot of Am Law 100 firms these days. So before some of you go off half-cocked and suggest they sky is falling at Firm ABC, maybe you should get the facts and examine just a tad more closely.

I find the snobbery about where people went to law school really ridiculous. I get that firms largely hire based on schools/grades and I support that-- you will find a larger pool of qualified people at a top school than a lower tiered school, sure. But hating on a qualified person coming from a lower tiered school isn't right, and there are way too many people on sites like this obsessed with law school/firm rankings. Seriously, it really shouldn't consume that much of your life/concern. Obviously they had qualifications that were apparent outside of name brand and unless you saw their resumes and interviewed them personally you really are in no place to judge. I just don't think that lower-tier = mediocre -- it is elitist, shallow, and untrue.

I am not an insider and cannot give specifics, but I have a good friend who is a litigation partner at Mayer who has expressed fear and concern over where the firm is going and his future there because of the issues noted in previous posts. If I was going through OCI and could choose between Mayer and a comparable firm, I would steer away from Mayer purely because of the uncertainty.

3:51 - it is "more than me" not "I". maybe you are stupid?

enough about CWT and MB. We all get the point that the places suck. Can someone from the other firms comment about QOL, work quality, comp, etc.?

I go to a T3 law school (yes laugh all you want), and CWT hires from us. Some people who aren't even on law review. What does that say?

4:06 - Um, that the posts ripping on CWT are right?

It is a mistake to write off T2 and lower grads at or near the top of their classes. I transferred from a T2 to NYU and have a GPA north of 3.6. NYU does not release class ranks, but that would have put me in the top 10% in last years' graduating class.

The problem is that I'd be very worried that someone from Suny Buffalo might not know how to use a fork at lunch.

Seriously, do you think I can walk into the Yale Club with someone who went to Seton Hall?

Look, Ropes & Gray is a nice little boston firm that has a NY outpost. The partners I've met from Ropes NY are dicks, enough said.

Now, more importantly, some of this CWT bashing on here is just garbage. First of all, if you knew anything about CWT, you'd realize that there are many service partners (and that may be just as bad as no service partners) but in any event, it seems that everyone on here criticizing the place either (1) has a "friend" that works there or (2) engages in some moronic "well, look at AmLaw and look at other posts on here" as if its useful to regurgitate other people's past gripes like they were god-given truth.

Here's an experiment for you, call up any "friend" you have in (currently, not "used to be" or "thought about being" but actually is in) Corp., Fin. Res., and, especially, Lit. and see if they trash the place. I guarantee you, you'll get a different perspective. And yes, I went to a top-20 school but we do also hire from SUNY Buffalo, and Seton Hall for that matter. You know why? Because some damn smart people went to school there.

Of course if you're the kind that is just going to repeat old attacks on the firm as truth, then just surround yourself with any old product of Harvard and Columbia, because everyone who went to school there is brilliant, guaranteed.

Elitist pig-- I like that you ADMIT that you are an elitist pig. I was going to respond to your comment and then I saw your name lol.

Law firms that only recruit from tier-1 schools aren't snobs so much as apathetic: sure there are a lot of incredibly talented future lawyers in other schools, but, well, you have to look through and find them, whereas you can go to a top-whatever school and basically guarantee that the person you hire will be smart enough to do the job. It's a shorthand for intelligence, even if it shouldn't be, just like a GPA is a shorthand for judging graduates from one particular school even though one person may have chosen far more challenging classes than another.

Yes, it sucks, but seeing as law firms make callback decisions based on 20-minute interview discussions about sports teams (seriously), do you expect any better? If you can figure out a way to show a potential employer how good you are that's more effective and just as efficient, you have the blessing of every attorney who's ever had to deal with an incompetent Columbia/NYU/Harvard grad on a daily basis.

Any info about Fried Frank in DC?

Ropes is cool, no complaints that aren't caused by the industry rather than the firm. This "little" firm is soon going to be bigger in NY than it is in Boston. Can't believe it fell to 30 in the rankings. Reading some of the CWT posts makes me think there's an inverse relationship between associate happiness and prestige. Oops.. did I just lower our prestige factor?

3:51 - it is "more than me" not "I". maybe you are stupid?

HAHAHAHAHAHA

If you're going to correct my grammar at least make sure you're correct.

"Than I" not "than me" - buy a grammar book - the subject not the accusative goes in that position -

I am going to remember how stupid you are for months. You're like a 7-11 clerk who tries to use the word "whom" to sound smart and does so incorrectly.

Me wish good day.

Hogan's bonuses are pathetic. if you want to work part-time and not very much money, it's a great place. if you have an active practice and bill a lot of hours you will consistently be undercompensated. the only reason to come to hogan as a junior associate is if you want to become a (non-equity) partner - the prospects are reasonably good. but, if your interest is anything short of that, and you bill more than 2100 hours, you are going to be extremely upset every December as your law school classmates down the street bring home $30-50 more than you.

Any thoughts on Ropes & Gray's IP litigation practice? It seems to be ranked well (Chambers, Vault, etc.) but I haven't heard their name in many of the latest headline-making patent cases. What it's like to work in this group, which seems to be mostly based in NY?

My mom worked at Ropes & Gray

Anon 2:58,

I think you are the one who is not informed enough to comment. Chris (3:40) is right about Salpeter. You seem to imply that it's bad for MB to lose the highest paid partner. Indeed, the opposite is true. He was grossly overpaid, which is why they let him walk. If the Lamb wants to overpay him, bully for them. It makes even less sense considering all his business (and his service partners who hated him) stayed at MB.

The hard truth -- which MB denied for years but now realizes -- is that MB was a sub-par firm for a looong time. Now they're making the tough choices and calculated business decisions it takes to compete at the level they thought they were at. MB is not a sinking ship; it is a firm on the rise.

How does it feel to bust your ass off your whole entire life and land the same job as someone who had fun living? Maybe you're the retarded ones. Just because you've never gotten laid, studied all weekend in college and studied for a solid year for the LSAT doesn't make you smarter than anyone. I partied my ass off, got more pussy than you can dream off and didn't crack a book until lawschool. Still working BIG LAW, still collecting 160k. Who's stupid now?

How does it feel to bust your ass off your whole entire life and land the same job as someone who had fun living? Maybe you're the retarded ones. Just because you've never gotten laid, studied all weekend in college and studied for a solid year for the LSAT doesn't make you smarter than anyone. I partied my ass off, got more pussy than you can dream of and didn't crack a book until lawschool. Still working BIG LAW, still collecting 160k. Who's stupid now?

5:11p: I have heard the same, but what do you base your statement on?

Can you give real world examples of Hogan's miserable bonuses?

541p: you are still stupid, you stupid doubler poster. you are also an ignorant 1st year who hasn't yet made it at a big firm more than the year long orientation. come post again in another couple of years.

541p: you are still stupid, you stupid doubler poster. you are also an ignorant 1st year who hasn't yet made it at a big firm more than the year long orientation. come post again in another couple of years.

Fried Frank DC is a horrible place to work. The facilities were nice in the 80s when they were riding high, but haven't been kept up--the carpets are stained and there are big scratches on the walls all over the place. Partners are generally a-holes and associates work sweatshop hours.

i've got a callback at mayer brown, can someone working there/former employee give me some helpful hints?

Funny how 5:47 tried to shit on 5:41 for double posting, and then went ahead and double posted.

Seriously, do you think I can walk into the Yale Club with someone who went to Seton Hall?

You're making the same flawed assumption all douchebags such as yourself make; That people other than the supremely pretentious and didactic pricks that comprise that organization's membership would WANT to go. Hmmm Yale Club- a bunch of middle age guys sitting around talking about academic achievements obtained decades ago sounds like a hoot..

Ropes and Gray NY is the pick of this group. Especially if you're interested in private equity or IP (they are the firm behind the iPhone). They've just acquired a great investment management group, too. From what I hear, the hours are far better than at its peer firms in these practice areas, as well. Beyond that, you get to hang with the fine folks at Fox News regularly.

I left Mayer after two grueling years (that felt like 4) in structured finance. I was really gung ho about the group and the firm when I started. I billed 2500 hours my first year, routinely working until 3 or 4 A.M., but was universally criticized for not being at my desk by 9. More than a few times I would see a certain senior partner coming to the office at 5AM while I was still at my desk from the day before. He would just shake his head in sympathy. In the end I didn't want his life or mine, so I left.

I wouldn't say that the people I knew there were happy. We were pretty much all miserable. But we bonded in our misery. And we partied like rock stars when we could. If there's one thing MB knows how to do, its party.

7:43 - it looks like, given the amount of time between postings for 5:47(aka 6:12), that someone was having fun with it.

The thing about Ropes & Gray IP is that they still have too many partners left over from the Fish implosion. If you're going there as a first year, great ... if you're thinking about going as a lateral associate ... plan on being an associate for longer than you might otherwise be, or else branching out into corporate IP work.

Fried Frank DC is a horrible place to work. The facilities were nice in the 80s when they were riding high, but haven't been kept up--the carpets are stained and there are big scratches on the walls all over the place. Partners are generally a-holes and associates work sweatshop hours.

Do you know Tom?

Does anyone know the typical billable hours for Ropes and Gray in NYC?

Especially the billable hours by associates in IP litigation in their Fish & Neave IP Group?

Does anyone know the typical billable hours for Ropes and Gray in NYC?

Especially the billable hours by associates in IP litigation in their Fish & Neave IP Group?

8:28 have you even been in the Fried Frank DC office in the last few years? Aside from the fact that the carpets, art, and walls are kept in top shape, they're about to begin a remodeling. Almost all the partners are great to work with and the DC office bills significantly less on average than the NY office and other DC firms. Never heard a lawyer complain about hours since I've worked there.

"Target" hours for bonus eligibility at Ropes is 1900 but that includes pro bono work... first 2 years are lock-step bonus so it is unlikely you'd miss the bonus if you didn't make the 1900, especially if you were doing a fair amount of firm-related activities such as recruiting, etc. The IM group in Boston is well-established, has a great rep and is a constant pipeline for the Fidelities of the world. The NY IM group has recently been bolstered by some lateral hires. PE and finance is strong in both offices. IP lit is mostly NY but corporate IP is strong in both offices. Just opened an office in Japan, which was driven primarily by the need to service IP clients.

anyone from mayer brown got advice for my callback interview?

6:26 must not work at the same Fried Frank DC I do. Every associate gets his or her own window office - mine overlooks Pennsylvania Avenue, across from the IRS and DOJ. There is not a single screamer in the office. The office is dead after 7 pm and weekends. People tend to work hard during the day and then go home to their families, although some of the younger associates are more social. And yes, you can check personal email.

At my stable the hos get blackberry devices and other perks such as a crak stipend. No minimum number of tricks required but all my bitches are encouraged to work dat ass hard.

It's early interview week at NYU and Columbia and probably elsewhere. Anyone who thinks recruiting directors have time to be posting to blogs right now is crazy. Oh, and I went to a t1 school and I'd much rather work with the sort of t2 or t3 student these firms hire than with someone who went to a t1 school and assumes that all t2 or t3 grads are idiots.

4:24 - You know nothing of Ropes. Your post implies you work at CWT - perhaps partners you've "met" were "dicks" because you brought the same attitude to the deal room (or litigation work) as you bring to comment boards.

Newsflash - You've been punked. You need to check out the name of the poster you assailed and then rethink your position in light of the obvious intended irony. [Hint: go read The Great Gatsby.] Interestingly, your vitriolic comments about the Yale Club are just another form of ignorant snobbery, which can run high no matter who you are or where you went to school. Thank-you for playing in the douchebag sweepstakes, but you're a loser and we have no parting gifts.

No shit- I read it in 8th grade

You can throw a party at the Yale Club no matter where you went to school if you pay them.... I went to a T1 school and think all this garbage about T2 schools is ridiculous, smart people go to different schools for many different reasons. Maybe they wanted to stay close to home and didn't have a T1 school nearby, or maybe they aren't the type of wealthy elitist jackasses that go to Yale and decided to go to a school that gave them a great scholarship.

You can throw a party at the Yale Club no matter where you went to school if you pay them.... I went to a T1 school and think all this garbage about T2 schools is ridiculous, smart people go to different schools for many different reasons. Maybe they wanted to stay close to home and didn't have a T1 school nearby, or maybe they aren't the type of wealthy elitist jackasses that go to Yale and decided to go to a school that gave them a great scholarship.

12:03,

Which MB office?

What do Hogan bonuses really look like? And does anyone have info about their regulatory practice groups, specifically FDA and healthcare? Thanks!

My callback is at mayer brown's new york office

Re: Fried Frank DC, I worked there for almost 4 years before lateralling elsewhere. There are pros and cons. The biggest pro is the people, including the partners. The earlier suggestion that the partners are "assholes" is completely off base. I can say without question that in terms of personality, the partners there, across the board, were probably the nicest people I've ever worked with. The other pros - Overall, very reasonable hours (indeed, perhaps a little too low for the firm's good), fairly interesting work, and NY money.

The main "cons" are lousy partnership prospects, and also a sense that sometimes the volume of work is not what it could be, particularly in litigation. (I'm not sure as much about corporate). Overall all, though, its a very nice place to work, particularly if your goal is to stay somewhere for a few years and then move on.

6:26 is way off base about FFDC. The FF partners are one of the firm's greatest assets. They are incredibly nice and we don't have screamers. The partners work just as much as the associates, probably more so. People work hard here, but there is a general focus on getting out at a reasonable hour, either for family or for having a life. No one minds if you want to leave the office for dinner and take work home with you. No one comes in on weekends. I can't speak for the litigation department, but the corporate and tax work is challenging and interesting. The offices have seen better days though. A move or a remodel will definitely occur within the next couple of years (FF recently remodeled the NY offices and they are beautiful).

Is LS still sucking cocks as an associate at CWT?

Fried Frank DC makes summers share offices and gave two no-offers last year for no reason, one of which was a good friend of mine. He told me that well fewer than half (more like 1/3) of the summer associates in the office last summer will be starting there this fall.

12:03,

Sorry - haven't been to that one.

No offense to 12:24, but inflammatory hearsay needs a response and there are two sides to every story.

I spent this past summer at Fried Frank DC and had a great time. Only a few summers shared offices and most of those only had to share for a few weeks. The two no-offers were given out two years ago. Both of those people were (anonymously) legendary in the office... legendary for being complete a**holes. Whatever the "no reason" the friend claimed for not granting his or her offer, his or her behavior and attitude are still given as example to new summers of "what not to do."

Last year, the firm gave offers to 100% of the summers and gave offers to over 95% this summer. Nearly all former summers accepted their offers or declined in order to clerk first.

Obviously I had some of the FF Koolaid, but the truth must be told.

I went to UB Law School (SUNY Buffalo) and am happy to say that our graduates (including yours truly) have been hired at Weil Gotshal, Fried Frank, Ropes & Gray, White & Case, and a host of other BIGLAW firms.

I'm even happier to report that at 12K per year of tuition, I graduated with $0 student loans.

7:24 - In Summer 2006, Fried Frank DC gave two no-offers without any "legendary complete assholes". I assume this is what you meant by "last year".

Also, every summer associate in Summer 2006 shared an office in Fried Frank's DC office.

Looked it up and I think 7:24 just confused 2005 and 2006. Never worked at Fried Frank, but I'm betting that the "legends" are more accurate than a disgruntled ex-employee's sob story because that place has a reputation for being generous with their offers.

It has to be remembered that firms spend tens of thousands of dollars on each summer they hire after recruitment, events, boozing and meals, and lost billables that attorneys spend with the new kids. Throwing all that cash away by refusing to give offers for "no reason" is bad for business. Arbitrarily refusing offers looks bad too and makes recruiting savvy 2Ls even harder.

Practice for a few years and you realize (if you haven't already) that when people play the victim and claim they were picked on for "no reason" in the professional world there is almost always a reason and they almost always know what it is, but understandably want to save face.

It's just not a good idea to badmouth based on what someone who got rejected says, especially when it doesn't make sense.

To 10:41:

I think I'll trust someone with personal knowledge of what happened over someone who heard the party line from the firm the year after.

I would stay far away from MB NYC. Problems abounded during my 2 years there and there must have been at least 8 significant partner departures while I was there. The entire high yield practice left for WC earlier this year and the corporate practice is a shambles. Securitization is still a good practice area there but you will bill 2500+. Contrary to what some have said, there is major infighting between Chicago, NY and London about what the future will bring (and money). The NY office is an eat what you kill shop and is run like a confedaration of small firms, not a single operation. I would stay far away if I were in law school, unless strictly interested in litigation.

I concur with anon 3:08 p.m. I spent a long time at the NYO and it deteriorated very rapidly after 2002. Corporate is indeed in shambles - it is now at best a fourth or fifth tier firm in that area in NY. Bank finance took a major hit as well with several departures. All they have left is litigation and structured finance, so unless you are really gung ho for litigation or don't mind putting in 2500 grueling hours in securitization, stay as far away as possible.

When I went through OCI last year, I spent a long time researching the two FFDC no-offers from the summer of '06, because it did concern me. But I found that there was definitely a reason they didn't get offers - they were d*cks. I found this out first-hand, talked to the people they worked for at the firm and got direct quotes about what they said and did to make this happen to them. I actually felt better about the firm for NOT hiring those people.

Also, only a couple summers shared offices this past summer. It was not a big deal, the offices were enormous.

10:02 - what did you hear that they said?

To say that the MB NYC corporate dept is fourth or fifth tier is being generous. You can do much better work at a lot of the smaller to mid-size NY firms. If that doesn't tell you all you need to know, I don't know what will.

"Why is CWT bad? Absolutely no chance of partnership. Never. Ever. Don't know the percentage, but it would be interesting to see how many home-grown partners they have, because I never met one"

Do you work at CWT? If you did then you would know that we have a high number of home-grown partners. Maybe you should do your research before you just spread bulls*t...

FFDC is a great place, though some of the associates are a little clique-y. Good group of summers this year and the firm treated us all very well.

I agree w/ 7:57 PM Re: Ropes NY. Didn't meet a person there I didn't like, hours appeared reasonable. (I got the impression that missing the 1900 "target" was not a catastrophic event) Strong IP, strong IM, although NY lit group is quite small.

They treat their summers well; flexible lunch limit of 100pp, and will fly you out to Boston for dinner several times, but of course that should be a small part of the equation.

Worth repeating, although this info is available widely, they have one of the best-rated formal training programs.

Having been at FF for awhile now, I can tell you, the two people who did not get offers in summer 2006 did not get offers for a reason. Having worked with both of them, I am not surprised at all. And I wouldnt say that they weren't viewed as assholes. It takes a lot to lose your offer here, and they managed to do it. Both people were warned during their midpoint evaluation and made no effort to correct their problems.

And clique-y is not necessarily a fair characterization. Some associates have developed friendships that extend outside the office, some associates prefer to do their work and go home. Either is a personal choice. I suspect it is this way everywhere. That associates become friends with each other should not be a bad thing. As far as the summer associate events go, there is no clique-ishness. Every summer is invited to everything.

What is the culture like at MB for support staff?

The poster who commented on Hogan bonuses and hours is correct. There's no financial incentive to bill over a certain amount of hours (but that doesn't stop you from having to work those hours if tasked to do so). Top NY firms pay 30-40k higher in bonuses without any billable requirements. Other top DC firms, with billable requirements, also pay better bonuses I have been told. It is a great place to work if you're not looking to work as many hours as peers at other firms. But in return you won't be compensated as they are.

Re the educational practice - it's good, but small, and lots of summers are interested in it and they can only take so many. I've heard there isn't a lot of substantive work for associates and that the partners do most of their own work. That is true in other regulatory practices at Hogan as well.

Re clerkship bonuses - they aren't planning on matching. In fact bonuses are discretionary, so you may get a bigger bonus for a certain judge, or no bonus at all for a state judge. But this isn't a surprise since they have no intention on matching regular bonuses either.

I'm looking at Ropes and Gray in NYC. How much bonus did they give 1st year associates? Is it more than the bonus in the DC office. I'm debating whether to work in the DC office for cheaper cost of living or in the NYC office as I want to do IP lit and thats where it's based. Any info will be appreciated.

Anyone know anything about the rumor that Hogan is looking to merge with Waller Lansden in Nashville?

aaaa, I still chat frequently with my former secretary who left MB before I did. She still communicates regularly with her former colleagues and she tells me that morale across the board is awful. The lawyers are stressed out(understandable given that the firm is in serious danger of going under) and that the staff (whatever is still left) is taking a lot of the heat.

Anyone have any CWT info. that's Charlotte-specific?

Does MB (outside of Chicago) pay a bar stipend (not including reimbursement for bar and bar review courses)?

Is MB really in "serious danger of going under"? That seems ridiculous given their size.

It's unlikely to go under, as in go bankrupt. But they are under considerable pressure financially due to some idiotic management over a long period of time. The sacking of so many fee earning partners (which co-incided with so many other partner departures it makes you wonder why they rushed to do it) means they have so many fewer fee earners to pay for the same expensive real estate, IT, staff, infrastructure, etc. They have exaggerated their PEP for years (and don't expect any embarrassing admissions of lower PEP this year), but it must be under incredible pressure now. Their strengths were structured finance (which, as an industry, is about to die), litigation (but trial lawyers are running out the door or have been sacked) and corporate in Chicago. The rest of the firm (especially NY) is a shambles in the US. Outside the US, the London office has had an incredibly poor year (it's strength was M&A, but it hasn't done any major deals all year, despite the M&A boom there), Europe is doing ok and HongKong hasn't been able to expand beyond the initial 3 lawyers that they brought in (1 lateral, 2 internal transfers). They're really struggling to hire laterals with books of business anywhere (though they would argue that some have been hired in London) and many remaining partners aren't really carrying their own weight and a lot of the salaried partners are looking to leave on account of the dead weight around them and lack of scope for promotion. Therefore, it won't go under, but it is likely to continue to decline due to all of the baggage surrounding the firm (and I didn't even mention the crushing law suits they're facing...). If they keep losing people (and lose one of the law suits, even the "smaller" US$245m suit), then, of course, it could all start to snow ball.

oops, one of MB's partners has just been charged with a US$2.4bn fraud, so the snow may be starting to ball a little...