This is the second time i have left the second comment.

What is AFAIK?

as far as i know

hth

Does anyone know what the clerkship-bonus policy is for WSGR?

Anyone who uses AFAIK spends too much time online and not enough time billing in the bathroom with the sports pages.

Proskauer Rose (NY) is the most miserable firm on the face of this earth, and its finally starting to get out there and become public knowledge. They had an extremely hard time recruiting top law school candidates last year, and an even tougher time this year. The environment is horrible, the people are unappreciative, and the bonuses, while claimed to be market, are only so if you bill 2000 hours of BILLABLE, not including the pro-bono firm marketing hours that you are given (which, in the case of junior associates, is often in excess of 250 hours!).

Things are so bad recruiting-wise, maybe even Loyola2L can get a job there!

Mr. Sonsini is a very reputable dude. (I'm being sarcastic).

"accused the Bush administration from"

not smoking?

"Proskauer Rose (NY) is the most miserable firm on the face of this earth, and its finally starting to get out there and become public knowledge"

I was at Proskauer a few years ago and found the atmosphere generally a bit stifling and uptight. That being said, there's some great work at Proskauer, at least in litigation. Some good partners too.

WSGR 103.3 FM in Onancock, Virginia??? I wasn't aware they were hiring, let alone giving bonuses!!!

I'll take a gig there! Can I do SwapShop in the afternoons???

11:03: like, omigod. 2000 hours of billable work to get a (huge) bonus! How oppressive.

What will they think of next?

11:03 - 2000 billables is not so easy to reach when you are a first year and they give you 450+ hours of non-billable/pro-bono/marketing work.

11:25 - welcome to big law bozo. I've had 200+ non-billable hours every year, and I'm going on five years. Never missed my 2000 billed. This is the life we chose, deal with it.

Linklaters is on par with (or exceeding) Sullivan and Cromwell or Cravath as far as reputation globally. Linklaters is brilliant: pay English trainees half of a US salary and send them to NYC to work. Linklaters will likely fire all the over-paid cry-baby US associates and man the NY office with English qualified lawyers that actually know what they are doing!

I currently a first (soon to be second) year at Proskauer and think its a great place to work. Everyone I have worked with has been exceptionally nice. I always get feedback in a positive and constructive manner. As far as the billables go, the firm pays market bonus for the first two years regardless of hours.

I'm in the litigation department and we have great opportunities to do pro bono. I just signed up to retain to criminal defendants who were just arraigned. I am handling this personally. My officemate is conducting her own depositions, also for pro bono.

Officemate?!? You don't have your own office?

11:42 - Trust me. I was told the same story as you re: hours not being counted your first two years. Its bullshit. I speak from my own experience, and I know at least three other 1st/2nd years who did not get market bonuses because they didn't hit 2000 billables (even though they hit 2000 hours when you factor in non-billable/pro-bono/marketing hours). They lie. You will see. Ask around and you will find out the truth.

I recentely finished as a summer associate at Proskauer and wholeheartedly agree w/ 11:42. Proskauer, on a whole, seemed to be a very pleasant place to work. The Partners and Senior Associates seemed to be very respectful of those more junior.

11:32: unless things have changed since I was in London, the only time an English trainee will see half of a US salary is when they watch a UK associate cash his paycheck. At my old (UK) firm (until last year, i.e. before the most recent New York raises), first-year US associates made ~$210k, new qualifieds made 60k pounds and trainees made half of that.

In other news, I'll believe that Links is "on par with" S&C or Cravath when people around London stop talking about how Links and A&O "have really become more competitive and are almost like New York firms these days."

11:51 - Proskauer is a great summer camp. Don't even think about going back there full time. You will regret it. Ask around - Proskauer's reputation on the street is really bad, and they are having a difficult time recruiting.

I'll chime in and echo - very bad vibe from Proskauer NYC. I work at another firm and have done a few transactions with them and every associate I have ever dealt with there is either a generally miserable person and/or typically hard at work sending me emails at 3:00 AM, or either mysteriously disappears or leaves the firm in the middle of the deal.

Proskauer is the cheapest firm on the planet. If they can think of a way to screw associates out of a bonus they will.

"officemate" is a very telling slip.

This warrants a posting of its own - Lat???

11:42 certainly confirms the statement above that Proskauer is having difficulties recruiting top-notch candidates.

I just finished my summer at Proskauer and will be returning after graduation, primarily because of the work environment and the people.

I suppose this varies depending on your department and particular assignments - but I know there are some great people there, particularly in litigation.

I can't speak to 11:49 but I was under the impression that bonus is lockstep for the first 16 months only.

I interviewed at Proskauer a bit over a year ago. I did my homework and went in having heard that people weren't unhappy. I had never met anyone from Proskauer before then, but knew

11:02 WSGR has not historically paid a clerkship bonus, but they are loosing people left and right and can't hire anyone, so you can probably negotiate anything you want.

I've never worked at Proskauer, but they did send recruiters to my school during my 1L year for a luncheon, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. This was a few years ago.

After listening to a long talk by several attorneys about "life at Proskauer," I approached one of the speakers. I asked about their rotation system. Granted I was a naive 1L at the time, but I was curious as to how one could choose what area they wanted to practice in by simply spending a few weeks of a summer there. So I asked if you could continue to rotate after the summer, upon arrival at the firm post-graduation or if you could switch departments if you weren't happy after a year.

The Proskauer attorney responded (and not in a really nice way) that Proskauer is a business, and I am an asset to them. If I were to work for a year in litigation and then switch to corporate, I'm of no use to them and the whole year was a waste. True as this may be, the guy sounded like a complete d*ckhead, and it made Proskauer look like a place that could give two sh*ts about the happiness of their associates. Furthermore, this isn't a good method for recruiting, particularly to naive 1Ls. I avoided Proskauer at OCI like the plague, and most from my school who ended up going there were people I'm glad I won't be working with.

That's my $.02. Take it for what it is.

11:02 WSGR has not historically paid a clerkship bonus, but they are loosing people left and right and can't hire anyone, so you can probably negotiate anything you want.

My whole post got chopped. Whatever, do your homework. When I interviewed, I was interviewed by two weirdos in tandem and it turned me off. There was a nice, blonde, female partner though who was very cool. Vault GOLD says morale is low and attrition high -- don't know if that's still the case, but something may be up so be careful.

Then again, folks posting here seem to be happy with it. Who knows?

11:02 WSGR has not historically paid a clerkship bonus, but they are loosing people left and right and can't hire anyone, so you can probably negotiate anything you want.

I too work at Proskauer. I am happy enough with it that I intend to stay here for some time- sure it has issues, but what biglaw firms don't? I think some things may have changed since 11:49 worked here. For instance, pro bono does count towards the 2000 hour requirement.

For the most part, I have worked with good, smart people who are willing to give each other a hand when need be. Obviously I don't know everyone here, but I really don't think Proskauer deserves a bad rep.

I am curious, though. Do associates at other firms not share offices? We have office mates at first, then switch to our own offices.

12:54 - Had WSGR tied many of its recruits up? Why are they letting them loose then? I don't understand.

Proskauer to 190 . . . err, their own offices!

I'm reading your cell phone bill right now

Prosky is the only firm I have ever heard of that makes first years share offices.

Tidbits about WSGR:

1. Firm pays market for base salary at highest performance levels, but sub-market for people rated as performing "at class." In the past, they were pretty liberal about giving the highest performance rating to everyone but I think that may be changing.

2. Bonus kicks in if you bill 2100 hours. Most people hit the target (or can hit it if they wanted to).

3. Free-market assignment system means that work experiences will widely vary. Not uncommon for some junior associates to spend most of their time reviewing documents. But, also not uncommon that first and second years take/defend depositions, go to court, help negotiate terms in deals, etc.

4. Pro bono is generally encouraged and all pro bono hours are credited as billable hours (no cap). That said, they expect you to be earning money for the firm.

5. In 2001, the firm laid off a bunch of associates due to the dot-com bust but lied and characterized them as "performanced-based terminations." The same people who made that decision are still with the firm today.

6. You won't make partner.

7. Most associates dislike most of the partners. At the very least, these are men and women you wouldn't want to grab a beer with. Unfortunately, a number of them are thoroughly unpleasant human beings.

8. Most associates like their fellow associates. While there are a few gunners that everyone makes fun of, the majority of the associates are people you would want to grab a beer with.

9. Attrition levels are high (in the Palo Alto/San Francisco offices, not so much in the branch offices), in part because of #6 and #7. The firm has had to expand hiring at non top-20 schools as a result and lateral candidates from "lesser" firms or law schools are given plenty of consideration.

I too work at Proskauer tho i wont say what yeard/dept. I love the people who bash prosk based on recruiting, or things they've heard. If you dont work there, shutup you dont know anything.

Anyone who works at prosk have constructive things to add to the conversation?

how much do they pay for bonus for the first and second years?

I too work at Proskauer tho i wont say what yeard/dept. I love the people who bash prosk based on recruiting, or things they've heard. If you dont work there, shutup you dont know anything.

Anyone who works at prosk have constructive things to add to the conversation?

how much do they pay for bonus for the first and second years?

The E-mails from the Linklaters summer and associate are just damage control. Whether Links NYC is a good place to work depends entirely on which group you're in (no surprise), but the number of groups that still maintain a decent quality of life is dwindling. I'd be willing to bet those "disgruntled" summers are the ones who got the most accurate taste of life as an associate.

One last thing... does Links really deserve to be in the v30s? That's a big jump from last year (perhaps correlated with their disappearance from the qualify of life rankings). One has to wonder whether all their ad space in Vault has paid off...

1:35, tell me more about point #6. Why is it so hard to make partner there? I have seen that it has taken some newly minted partners upwards of 10 years to make it.

Also, has the whole mess with Larry Sonsini and the back-dated stock options lead to people jumping ship, or is it more so because the people there are just miserable?

anonymous at 1:46,

there is a lot that can be said about a firm in simply talking to attorneys that work there, particularly through recruiting events. obviously working there is going to give you more info than a recruiting event, but the idea of a recruiting event is to ATTRACT students to the firm. if it is doing just the opposite, it should set off red flags. my info was not speculation but a first-hand experience and is therefore constructive information. maybe you should shut up and get back to billing.

1:07

WSGR is mainly loosing its existing associates, so it's not so much an issue with tying up recruits. However, the firm can't replace the associates because it is having trouble getting new people to join (both out of law school and lateral).

I'm not sure what the reason for the recruiting problem is. It could be the option backdating/pre-texting stuff, but anyone who takes half a minute to look would realize that that has been blown out of proportion. The lawyers at WSGR are good, and it's ridiculous to think that they would actually advocate those practices. WSGR is just taking the blame for their corrupt clients.

The 1:35 post is a pretty good summary, although I would emphasis that individual experience differs widely depending on what group you are working for.

Anything on Freshfields NY?

2:14, I am not a partner so I don't really know what's going on for sure, but my guess is that they are still trying to work off the bloat from their excess classes in the late 90s, early 00s. These days, you pretty much have to wait 9 years to make partner, whereas the old track was 7 years.

Also, keep in mind that most new partners these days are service partners. Without a book of business of their own, they are really at the mercy of the firm on this issue. And boy, the firm takes advantage of this leverage every opportunity that it can.

It also means that many partner decisions are made based on office politics. Of course, all newly-minted partners have a certain baseline when it comes to skills and quality of work product, but plenty of passed-over candidates were considered by many to have superior skills (both legal and people-wise). But in the end, the otherwise superior candidates were not as well-liked by a senior partner or two and they get passed over.

(If you really want to make partner, you gotta attach yourself at an early stage in your career to a big rainmaker and be at their beck and call 24/7. Mid-level and junior partners ultimately have little influence in partnership decisions).

I don't think the stock option backdating mess really has led anyone to jump ship. Most people I know are barely concerned with those issues, to be perfectly honest. WSGR has always had high attrition because (1) it gives great exit opportunities, particularly for corporate associates and (2) why work for a jerk if you have a great exit opportunity?

Dear moron,

At recruiting events u meet 1 attorney and the HR staff.

Proskauer is 600 attnys. Let me give you some idiot math, u met less than 1% of the attnys and from that you judge the whole firm.

Go back to your TTT school and your crappy small law firm. Prosk doesnt want you anyway

Does anyone have any thoughts on Orrick? If one were to be interested in venture law, and high tech stuff in Silicon Valley, which firm would be best overall? (considering the strength of the practice groups, sanity of the partners, compensation, partnership prospects, etc)

3:01: Your math may be accurate, but I think Nameless's point is entirely valid. Firms try to send nice, agreeable attorneys to recruiting events, for obvious reasons. If the jerk partner Nameless encountered was the best Proskauer could muster, then I think that tells you something about the kind of people you will be working with. I turned down offers from firms where a significant number of the attorneys I interviewed with were jerks. If people who are jerks are the best face the firm can show, it must be a miserable place to work.

3:24: You are right on the money. Just yesterday, I turned down a job at McD's for Bk because the McD's manager was a real jerk.

I had a lateral offer from WSGR, and one of the reasons I declined it was because no one makes partner. My impression was that they didn't have income partners there, and while it wasn't officially "up or out", in practice, it was almost "up or out".

It was the only firm that I've ever met with that actively discussed its "career services" and placement abilities - i.e., the ability to place you somewhere else when you didn't make partner.

1:35, I agree with your post. However, I would amplify a couple of things.

Re your comment 5, management's candor problem is worse than you suggest. In addition to the "performance-based terminations" that you describe, management regularly engages in other dishonest behavior. For example, management regularly overstates partnership prospects to senior associates they have decided to pass over in order to get the associates to stay around a few extra years. ("you're really close. If you just bill an extra 250 hours next year I'm sure you'll get over the hump. ... Oh sorry, we couldn't get it done this year. If you just bill an extra 175 hours next year, I'm sure you'll make it.").

In addition, management also lied when they stopped the former all-attorney Pebble Beach retreat. They said they were ending the retreat as a cost-saving measure, but forgot to tell associates that they immediately started an identical partners-only retreat at the Half Moon Bay Ritz Carlton. When management was called out on the new retreat, management moved the new retreat back to Pebble Beach (still partners only). The underlying fact about the retreat really isn't important, but the dishonest way in which the change was made really speaks volumes about management's character.

Re your comment 6, I agree that partnership prospects are almost non-existent and are probably lower than most NY firms. Equally troubling, however, is the fact that the partnership selection process has been completely politicized. A number of mediocre associates have made partner in recent years while a number of high quality associates haven't. The new mediocre partners had strong rabbis while the (now former) high quality associates didn't.

WSGR's litigation practice has always been very concentrated in securities litigation and IP litigation, with the securities litigators running the show. WSGR has never had much of a commercial litigation or general litigation practice. However, securities litigation is drying up nationally (class action filings this year are at a 15-year low and trending still lower). Don't look for job security or good partnership prospects in litigation. Only one litigator made partner this year and he made it because the firm needed a litigation partner in an office that was left without one after the former incumbent partner decamped to another firm.

WSGR has been hemeraging partners for the last several years. The firm lost 18 partners last year, a dozen the year before and nine already this year (on a base of about 160 partners), mostly to other firms. The reasons for these departures vary, but the steady stream of departures would seem to indicate a lack of confidence among some partners.

1:35, I agree with your post. However, I would amplify a couple of things.

Re your comment 5, management's candor problem is worse than you suggest. In addition to the "performance-based terminations" that you describe, management regularly engages in other dishonest behavior. For example, management regularly overstates partnership prospects to senior associates they have decided to pass over in order to get the associates to stay around a few extra years. ("you're really close. If you just bill an extra 250 hours next year I'm sure you'll get over the hump. ... Oh sorry, we couldn't get it done this year. If you just bill an extra 175 hours next year, I'm sure you'll make it.").

In addition, management also lied when they stopped the former all-attorney Pebble Beach retreat. They said they were ending the retreat as a cost-saving measure, but forgot to tell associates that they immediately started an identical partners-only retreat at the Half Moon Bay Ritz Carlton. When management was called out on the new retreat, management moved the new retreat back to Pebble Beach (still partners only). The underlying fact about the retreat really isn't important, but the dishonest way in which the change was made really speaks volumes about management's character.

Re your comment 6, I agree that partnership prospects are almost non-existent and are probably lower than most NY firms. Equally troubling, however, is the fact that the partnership selection process has been completely politicized. A number of mediocre associates have made partner in recent years while a number of high quality associates haven't. The new mediocre partners had strong rabbis while the (now former) high quality associates didn't.

WSGR's litigation practice has always been very concentrated in securities litigation and IP litigation, with the securities litigators running the show. WSGR has never had much of a commercial litigation or general litigation practice. However, securities litigation is drying up nationally (class action filings this year are at a 15-year low and trending still lower). Don't look for job security or good partnership prospects in litigation. Only one litigator made partner this year and he made it because the firm needed a litigation partner in an office that was left without one after the former incumbent partner decamped to another firm.

WSGR has been hemeraging partners for the last several years. The firm lost 18 partners last year, a dozen the year before and nine already this year (on a base of about 160 partners), mostly to other firms. The reasons for these departures vary, but the steady stream of departures would seem to indicate a lack of confidence among some partners.

Orrick is definately going down hill.

Several big NY firms have first years share offices, including A-list #2 Weil Gotshal.

Dear Moron,

Your argument is horrible because it is premised on a false assumption. Firms dont always send their best people and not everyone meshes with everyone.

For instance, your an idiot so obviously intelligent people won't get along with you.

Firms send people who agree to go. Like I said 1 guy out of 600?

Anyway I'm sure you have to go back to briefing cases or whatever they do at subpar law schools.

Enjoy!

Are there any associates who are happy at WSGR?

Dear Proskauer Cheerleader,

First of all, firms SHOULD send their best people to recruit, particularly at a firm 600 strong. If they don't, it's either because they don't have any good people or they're too small to spare the good people. Being that Proskauer is at 600+ attorneys and assuming that it is as great as you say it is, it's sort of odd that they couldn't muster up at least a few decent attorneys to a recruiting event.

Second of all, before labeling someone an idiot, you might want to check the grammar of the sentence in which you include such an accusation.

Third, I'm no longer a student (haven't been for over a year now), but when I was, it wasn't a subpar school and I'm not at a subpar firm now--not that it matters, but to a tool such as yourself, it seems as though it might.

Toodles!

Any insight on Freshfields NY would be great - thank you.

I too am at Proskauer in the litigation department (so I can only speak to that department). There are definitely times when the hours are long, but that's true for every BigLaw firm.

Everyone I have ever worked with here has been pleasant and as respectful of my personal life as much as can be expected at a BigLaw firm.

The firm recognizes that it has a bad rep out there and is at least trying to make changes to improve, though it does not help when former associates bad mouth the firm even though they cannot speak to how it is now.

As to the billables -- all probono work counts (but non-legal work such as articles, etc. do not).

Proskauer has been very good about offering opportunities for professional growth (e.g. the probono depositions, etc. mentioned in a previous post) -- associates just have to take the initiative.

I have been very happy here.

How can Orrick be going down hill if they're the only non-NY firm in CA paying NY size bonuses?

Quite the opposite.

Anyone else notice that all the Proskauer defenders in these comments are jerks and/or barely literate? Of course, not all 600+ Proskauer lawyers have posted here, so I guess we can't draw any conclusions...

Lat: You should dig up the time a few years ago when a senior associate at Proskauer took a swing at a paralegal who wasn't getting the lawyer's work done fast enough...

5:01

I don't know of any associates at WSGR that are happy about their job. However, most are not exactly unhappy either. It is more like mass indifference.

I'm another Proskauer litigator and echo everything that 520 said. I can only speak to litigation, but the firm does a great job giving us work in which we're interested and that we want to do. In my first couple years, i've done my fair share of doc review, but also worked on multiple trials and taken/defended multiple depositions, in high-profile matters. Associates aren't the coolest or most social people, but everyone i've met or worked with has been nice and pleasant. Same goes for partners - some of our most brilliant and accomplished rainmakers make it a point to take associates out to frequent and impromptu happy hours.

I went to a top law school and had offers from several "more prestigious" NY firms (although none in V5). I remain confident in my decision, and i can't say a bad word about my own experience. but it pains me to hear about our "miserable reputation:" nobody i know is outwardly miserable, but that reputation contributes to our recent difficulties recruiting from top schools.

1:33 - I'm no Prosk fan, but in NYC most junior associates share offices - Davis Polk, Cravath, Weil, Skadden, Simpson, S&C - all the juniors share offices.

Questions for 4:06:

What do you think about the IP litigation group at WSGR? Some associates from the 2006 class left for Orrick MP, and one 2005 associate left for Quinn. Seems like a slow period, really.

General observations:

1. Management at WSGR is a bit shady. It's not just that they put the most positive spin they can on the lame compensation scheme we now have - it takes them forever to make these decisions.

2. Not sure that partnership chances are worse here than at NY firms. They certainly are (1) politically charged and (2) keyed to financials in an unhealthy way (a better senior associate will always be passed over if another senior associate is ready to sacrifice his or her life to a vibrant practice area).

3. The securities litigators are unhappy and leaving in droves. One just left after lateralling here 6 months ago from a very good litigation shop.

What someone said to you at a cocktail reception "several years ago" has no relevance to what the firm is like now, especially when all we have to go by is your reaction, as a naive 1L, to some statement by an attorney to a lame, naive question.

The fact that you actually think that little anecdote is at all enlightening about Proskauer (especially several years after the fact) doesn't help your credibility here.

So... (a) anonymous guy's opinion based on cocktail party reaction several years ago when he was a 1L, vs. (b) anonymous guys who work at Proskauer now and say it isn't so bad. I go with (b).

No, I do not and have not worked for Proskauer. Just calling out nonsense, that's all.

What is WSGR's new bonus structure? Supposedly it, Heller, and MoFo changed after the bump to 160. I remember lots of complaints that the change would result in a lower level of total compensation for top performers. Perhaps that is why people are leaving?

Also, heard from someone that Orrick pays $10,000 for every 100 hours above 1900. That seems very high to me -- at the point that you are hitting the minimum 2100 or 2200 at other CA firms, you've already collected $20,000 to $30,000????

5:55:

WSGR's IP litigation group seems to be strong, but not world class. For whatever reason, many of the firm's biggest corporate clients seem to use other firms for their "bet-the-company" IP litigation. The IP lit group seemed to lose momentum several years ago when Irwin Gross, a junior partner who by all accounts was a rock star, left to join a VC firm.

Re your general observation 1, Larry loves to play mind-games with people, including his own partners. Management will never deliver a clear answer if it can obfuscate. According to an American Lawyer article several years ago:

"[S]ome partners believe that Sonsini made noises about joining Silver Lake just to scare them. It was the same scenario when he toyed with the idea of heading up the New York Stock Exchange two years ago (he declined the post and left the board with several other members after the scandal over Stock Exchange chairman Richard Grasso's compensation). 'He's supportive, but he also likes to mess with your head,' says one Wilson partner.

"Like a parent, Sonsini also wants to pass on a certain core value to his progeny, which, in this case, is the Wilson Sonsini culture.

" 'It's very individualistic,' says Sonsini. 'You can work on anything you want so long as it's part of the firm's mission.' An important part of that culture is staying edgy, never being completely comfortable: 'There was tension and competitiveness [in the firm] as we built clients,' says Sonsini. 'But the tension was not all bad-it goes to the entrepreneur culture. I didn't want to build a fraternity.' "

Rest assured, he didn't build that fraternity. In any organization, the tone is set at the top and permiates the entire organization. This is certainly true in this case.

Does anybody know how the firm culture is at WSGR's non bay area offices? What is it like in Seattle, Salt Lake City, etc.? Is management just as shady in the sattellite offices?

Dear Toodles,

You DID go to a subpar law school because you are ashamed to say it and you do work for a subpar firm because you are venting on a vault 1-40 list which you probably are not a part of.

I could care less what my grammar is like on here bc I dont get paid to have correct grammar to shmucks like you.

That being said; I run faster than you, draw better than you and know law better than you. Kill yourself and maybe then you might get that offer from proskauer that you are clearly still bitter about that u never received.

TOODLES!

WSGR's IP litigation practice seems to just putter along. It was hopping busy a few years ago, but a bunch of high-profile losses seems to have slowed down business a bit. I think associate attrition there isn't out of the ordinary -- the associates who left for Orrick recently were all Asian and followed an Asian partner who supposedly told them that WSGR doesn't promote Asians to partnership. What's an impressionable first-year associate to do?

The securities litigation associates are leaving in droves, however. A lot have left in the past two years. With securities lit work drying up, the firm doesn't seem to care too much.

Management in the WSGR satellite offices vary in quality, as expected. Have heard bad things about Salt Lake. Seattle and New York people seem pretty happy. Never hear anything from Austin.

To 1:35:

Is that really what Orrick told those three people from the 2006 class? Hadn't heard that at all. It's not really true either - James Yoon is a relatively young partner, and probably one of the better ones too.

Where did you hear that rumor about Orrick? Obviously, I'm not asking you to answer if you'll have to out yourself in the process; but if you can, I'd appreciate the pointer.

Dear Current Proskauer Employees,

1. What is the current bonus...35k for 1st years? does it increase by 5k each year?

2. How do vacations work? Aka if you want to book a trip NOW for thanksgiving thurs-sun...could u do it without worrying about having to cancel the trip for the firm?

3. How much do you take home after taxes? (less important)

4. Is it true there is free starbucks on every floor now?

Dear Current Proskauer Employees,

1. What is the current bonus; 35k for 1st years? does it increase by 5k each year?

2. How do vacations work? in other words, if you want to book a trip NOW for thanksgiving thurs-sun...could you do it without worrying about having to cancel the trip for the firm?

3. How much do you take home after taxes? (less important)

4. Is it true there is free starbucks on every floor now?

Aunt Jerimiah,

To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that anyone at Orrick (aside from the ex-WSGR partner) said anything. My info essentially came third-hand -- someone who knew someone who was told this by one of the departees.

I can think of several recent Asian partners at WSGR so I have my doubts about the truth of the claim, but again, if you're a first-year Asian associate without a sense of history with the firm and an Asian partner is telling you this, whom would you believe?

Anyway, like I said, I heard the rumor through not exactly direct links, so take it with a grain of salt when all is said and done.

Orrick now pays first years a $20K automatic bonus, plus up to an additional $20K.

A first year is guaranteed at least 10K of that additional 20K by billing 2100.

Bonuses increase 5 to 10K per class year.

WSGR has been on a slow decline since early 2000 when Larry took absolute control and many of the partners who made the place a great firm quit. I agree with the other commenters that current management has some significant integrity issues.

Several years ago, management had plans to have 650 lawyers by early 2006 (up from 550 in 2004 but down from 900 in late 2000). They never made it and the firm is now trending below 600.

During the 1990s, WSGR was able to poach great partners from national and top regional firms. Now, WSGR loses partners to national firms and recruits lateral partners at lesser regional firms. While money certainly plays a part, my impression is that WSGR's reputation among lateral partner candidates is so tarnished that many wouldn't consider WSGR regardless of the money offered. This problem has been compounded by a string of publicized client losses by high-profile companies such as KLA-Tencor, H-P and Sun Microsystems, as well as other unpublicized client losses.

1:35 is right about associate dislike of partners. I recall stories about a large female partner with a penchent for thong underwear who used to brag that she could feel the testosterone flowing through her blood and that she had bigger balls than the male lawyers on the other side of her deals. She would complain regularly that the firm wasn't doing enough to mentor and retain female associates, but was probably responsible for more attrition among female associates than any other partner.

Partner-associate relations are bad, which shouldn't be a surprise considering management's well-earned trust deficit. This problem won't improve without a fundemental change of leadership, but this won't happen as long as Larry is in the building.

Well my daddy can kick your daddy's ass. So there.

Toodles!

PS - you spelled "schmuck" wrong
PPS - just be glad anyone's willing to pay you anything for your intellect (even if it is a dump like Proskauer).

ur a fag.

Bay City Lawyer
Ever worked for Wilson? Or does your info come mostly from rumor?

I am a very happy WSGR PA associate, as are most of my colleagues. I adore the partner who runs my group; he is fabulous. WSGR's corporate side is very very busy. My group in particular is insanely busy, which is awesome. Easy to meet and exceed billing requirements.

The training I am getting is fantastic; I can't think of any place that I'd rather be.

The happy WSGR attorney - posting at 12:38 AM local time - presumably from the office.

the 2.02 poster who asked "does Links really deserve to be in the v30s?" clearly does not do any cross-border work.

Linklaters is moving up because of the expanding global practices and awareness of the the US attorneys voting in the V rankings

can we get some more thoughts on orrick?

I'm not sure what group the "happy" 12:38 poster works for at WSGR, but my group sucks dick. The partners suck, the clients suck, the associates all bitch, and I am so busy I can never do as complete a job on projects as I would otherwise want.

I think it's funny that people keep posting wrong information about the bonus at Orrick, especially since Lat actually posted the Orrick bonus memo on this site just 3 months ago.

The gist of the actual Orrick bonus for 1st years is:
$25k at 2000 hours
$35k at 2100 hours
a potential extra $10k on top of that as "discretionary"

Then it pretty much goes up
$5k per class year. Also, this bonus structure is across all U.S. offices.

But don't take my word for it:

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/05/skaddenfreude_heres_the_orrick.php

I am in Orrick’s NY office doing transactional work now and am very happy here. Everyone that I've met here is genuinely nice and the partners certainly seem to care about how the associates they're working with are doing. This also seems to be the case generally from what I’ve seen and other associates I’ve spoken to.

In response to bonuses: first year bonuses start out at 25k for 2000 hours (maybe 1950?), go to 35k at 2100 hours and then scale pro rata from 2100-2400 with an extra 10k which you can also get by being rated in the top 10%. So first year bonuses cap out at 45k. Pro bono counts 100% toward billable hours with no cap.

The work I’m getting is pretty interesting and the partners I’ve worked with have made an effort to make sure that I’m not getting stuck doing doc review 24/7.

Orrick started as a finance firm and while I think management desperately wants a big M&A practice it’s the one thing Orrick doesn’t have. Orrick has pretty top-notch finance work but if you’re looking for high market cap M&A you should probably go elsewhere. I’m not personally a huge fan of the culture of high market cap M&A groups so I like the current situation as is but I wouldn’t be surprised if it changed at some point.

Orrick remains based out of San Francisco, and the head of the firm is from SF and like a WSGR poster said, culture flows downhill. Being based in SF means partners tend to be a little more laid back and the general management policies of the firm tend to be more touchy-feely than what I’ve seen or heard of most NY based firms (bonuses are a decent example of this – as you can see from above they’re pretty strongly incentivized to hit 2100 but there’s a strong disincentive to go above that.

Interesting. The Proskauer defenders all say they worked in the Litigation dept. There's at least one comment saying that everyone he/she talked to there was miserable, but the commenter was doing a corporate deal. Is there variation in morale between departments?

Re: recruiting, look you people are all correct. Firms try to send the nice outgoing types, but they also send who's available. That said, it's not irrational to reject firms if they interview poorly. Your information is limited, and one data point is better than none.

Orrick sucks. They do alot of municipal work (bonds, financing etc.). Which means NO exit options. Only go to Orrick if you want exit options into a government job or are destine to become partner. Oh yeah, Orrick has a two tier partnership, which makes the partner prospects pretty dim.

Orrick sucks. They do alot of municipal work (bonds, financing etc.). Which means NO exit options. Only go to Orrick if you want exit options into a government job or are destine to become partner. Oh yeah, Orrick has a two tier partnership, which makes the partnership prospects pretty dim.

Re WSGR, I know that the partnership prospects are dim, but by the time you get to year 8 or 9 as an associate, is there really much competition for partnership left?

Meaning, is making partner at WSGR just a matter of being able to stick it out for 9 years, or do associates run the real risk of staying that long and then being pushed out the door either because they choose another 9th year associate or because they just landed some rainmaker from elsewhere?

WSGR says their track is nine years, but it's really not. In 2006, the average new WSGR partner was a 12th year at the time of election. In 2005, the average new WSGR partner was a 10th year at the time of election.

Simpson Thacher has one of the longer tracks in NY. Here is how WSGR compared to Simpson Thacher in 2006:

Grad.Yr. / STB / WSGR
1998 / 7 (54%) / 2 (15%)
1997 / 4 (31%) / 3 (23%)
1996 / 1 (8%) / 4 (31%)
<1996 / 1 (8%) / 4 (31%)

Avg Grad Year / 97.25 / 95.85

WSGR's real track is almost two years longer than Simpson Thacher.

WSGR has quite a few associates who are more than ten years out of school. Just because you stuck it out for nine years won't improve your odds much.

To 2:28:

There are definitely 9th year associates who "stick it out" and don't make the cut in the end. Tenure guarantees nothing.

In fact, there are years where nobody in a particular department makes partner. WSGR's commercial / securities litigation group has made only 1 partner in the past 3 years, for example, despite having several 7-9th years around during those times.

I know Linklaters has no set billable hours requirement, but can anyone let me know what the average number of hours billed is for associates?

To those asking about WSGR culture in the Salt Lake office: there is no culture because the office no longer exists.

I am a former Proskauer litigator and strongly endorse the positive comments of others in the thread: I always felt Proskauer to be a warm and humane institution -- and certainly by comparison to its peer firms; I learned a great deal and was given extraordinary responsibility on cases very early in my career; and I generally had very interesting work during my years there. This obviously didn't and doesn't go for everyone there, but I, for one, never understood the bad rap.

To: Happy WSGR? The 12:38 am does not refer to local time, but instead East Coast time. Since I am in PA, CA the local time would have been 9:38. I was already at home just surfing on "abovethelaw" while watching reruns of "the practice" (note the show does not capitalize the"t" or the "p") (as my beloved partner says, "if you are going to be nasty, better damn well make sure that you make no mistakes".

I was waiting on my husband and issue to come home so that I could begin my second job (ie playing with them)

To 11:25am Anonymous: If you work for Wilson then you can easily determine what group I am in-->the happiest group at WSGR PA. Let me know if you need more help.

While I don't feel competent to comment on other groups here at WSGR, my group is happy. Yes associates bitch, but more because there is too much work, not because we are not appreciated. My group keeps open lines of communication with frequent feedback to ensure our top performance.

I still don't know how WSGR gets such a bad rep. I love love love it here. I'm not a litigator so maybe that is where the negative press comes from.

Also please note that we are paid entirely too much. Come on: a starting salary of 160K, that is insane. So of course there is pressure from the top to live up to that. The partners must bill us out at a higher rate and we must be more efficient; or clients don't pay.

I also don't feel competent to discuss partnership to any real extent. However, keep in mind that a properly functioning law firm must be a pyramid. What this means is that there must be more lower level associates than higher level A's and there must be more higher level A's than partners. If not then the law firm is too top heavy. There must be folks around to do the crap work. (shit rolls down hill). What this means is that as A's move up 7th, 8th and 9th, the law firm must be growing the lower level A's at the same rate or the whole business fails. If the amount of lower level A's are not growing then the higher level A's must leave (there is not enough support for them).

Last thought: Wilson is concerned about its attrition rate. They have hired an A to specifically investigate the source of "unhappiness" with the ultimate hope that what ever problems can be fixed.

Best to all
happy WSGR associate

I worked at Proskauer this summer and can't say enough about the place.

People are sadly mistaken if they are talking negatively about the environment.

The bottom line is this...every large law firm has assholes...stay away from them.

I met a few assholes...I stayed away. More often than not I was meeting great people who actually gave a shit about me and what I was interested in. People wanted to know about my background, my law school experience, my under grad experience and what led me to law. When an associate, or even a partner goes out of his way to make sure you're cool and getting work that you want...what more can you really ask for.

Associates definitely work hard and so do summer associates. The associates are fun and for the most part down to earth.

What once may have been a horrible firm (i have no idea how truthful any of the claims are), is actually a really fun place to work. The summer class was great...very diverse and smart. They are bringing in new partners and associates. I guess that means the culture is changing.

I have no complaints about proskauer and will go back without thinking twice.

In regards to training there are great programs...there's a mediation workshop where you actually sit in a room with a litigation partner and try to hash out an agreement. There are negotiation workshops and a 5week long M&A workshop which is actually really cool. You get to work with lawyers that actually want to see you grow and develop. They go out of their way to call you when there's a negotiation or a strategy meeting or a client call that you could sit in on and hopefully learn from. The feedback is also better than how other firms work, from what i hear. My reviewing partner, who was insanely busy, would always take time out and go over every written assignment I did with me.

In regards to social events...i dont think you can get any better. Tonys, Legally Blond, NBA draft, playing basketball in MSG, New Orleans habitat for humanity trip, boat trips, open bars, wine tasting,cooking classes, bike trips, events at partners' houses...and more im probably forgetting.

hope this was helpful

Also...in regards to the person who said that proskauer had a horrible time recruiting...bullshit...

summer class was typical of a successful NY firm:
top nat'l schools
harvard
columbia
nyu
mich
duke
uva
cornell
upenn

and then smart kids from strong local schools:
fordham
brooklyn
cardozo
nyls
sju
pace

and judging by the quality of the people in the program...proskauer is not having trouble recruiting