Boies Schiller. What is there to know about them?

The Boies compensation system is WEIRD.

"A McDermott partner would rather introduce you to his mistress than his client."

Boies only has like 20 equity partners - a 10:1 associate to partner ratio. Way worse than Dechert

I have an interview with Dechert next week. I haven't heard too much about it - any thoughts?

Dechert has a very strong financial services group - that's like their crown jewel. For a while they were paying associates in FSG more than "regular" associates.

I also have an interview with Dechert next week. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

How do bonuses compare between Munger and Irell? Is Munger that much more prestigious?

Munger has so many Supreme Court clerks. If you're not a SCOTUS clerk, are you a second-class citizen?

Am I the only one who gets the impression that Boies Schiller is engaged in a concerted effort to artificially inflate their Vault ranking by being self-satisfied dicks during recruiting? And yes, I say this as someone (from a far, far better-ranked firm) who didn't receive a callback, much less an offer, from OCI.

Dechert's coming out with a theme song soon. I hear its a Britney Spears/Michael Jackson duet - it blows Nixon Peabody's out of the water!

The London trip for Dechert summers is pretty awesome, and a good way to meet the summer associates in the other offices.

Dude, the new office is SWeet. The cafeteria is totally rad. I love surfing.

Dechert's summer program really held it down; the associates were supercool and fun.

Dechert sounds like a great place to work. I wish I could get a job there.

L2L-

You could get a job there but you waste your time on this site instead of studying.

Lat-

Can we ban lower tier law students from this site as they add nothing.

LAT - That picture is definitely not the Cira Center. (I can see that building and I am in the Cira Center, that's how I know.)

Dechert's going to break into top 20 soon! Its a great place to work.

It is clear that if you type "define: L2Loser" into google one million matches for DoucheBaggery and Assclownedness return.

Dechert to 190!

Of all the things I like best about Dechert New York, I'd say the cafeteria is a close second behind the indoor soccer team. Man, those guys are stepping it up this season.

"Dechert's going to break into top 20 soon! Its a great place to work."

top 20 what?

i suppose it's a decent place to work if you also happen to be one of those emo wackos who like to cut themselves.

Has anyone heard anything about Dechert SF?

Irell and Munger are the two best firms in LA. The Vault rankings are a joke.

L2Loser 12:12, what should the cut-off be for "higher ranked" schools?

a theme song? ah if only 'twere true.

LA lawyer, does top-quarter CCN have a shot at irell?

i hear that munger starts looking at partnership after 5 years
true?

Dechert ain't a scene, it's a god-damn arms race. Speaking of arms, where's my box cutter? I have to express myself the only way I know how.

Munger is a piece of shit. Barely profitable compared to the other top-line LA firms, full of borderline autistic lawyers that are more interested in making intellectual arguments than winning, and over-dependence on a tiny number of aging rainmakers.

But hey, a partner of theirs is the state bar president, woo!

Dechert has multiple levels of partners? I thought we only had 2, equity and non-equity. Anyone care to enlighten me?

12:38 What's CCN?

la lawyer: Yes, the Vault rankings are a joke for the most part, mainly due to the NY-centric "prestige" factor. There are firms not based in NY, whether in Chicago or CA, which should rank higher on the list. There perhaps should be fewer DC based firms at such high ranks. The Vault rankings are a product of the seasonal recruiting circus and law students who have been raised on television and movies depicting NYC as the center of the universe (with DC coming in second).

Ask not what Dechert can do for you, ask what you can do for Dechert.

12:46 - columbia, chicago, nyu

er, that was for 12:45. darn tiny comment font!

These commenters must be absolutely void of lawyers and filled with students. After we graduated from law school and started work at firms or with our judges, who cared about law school rankings?

I heard not such good things about Dechert in Princeton. I know somebody who didn't get an offer there after a summer, despite being fully competent and not messing anything up.

12:49 - my understanding is Irell has fairly inflexible grade cut offs. Top 25% at those schools would probably be considered, but I'm not sure.

Multiple includes "two."

"Multiple" just refers to something "having or involving or consisting of more than one part or entity or individual."

12:36--I think the cutoff should be at Y. Therefore, I sign-off permanently so as not to further sully this YLS message board.

Vault is so full of shit. I second the earlier poster: Irell and Munger are top LA firms and highly selective. Yet somehow the s-hole Paul Hastings ranks higher.

These Vault rankings are worthless. See, e.g., the Amlaw A-List, where Munger is up there at the top.

And no, I don't work at either firm.

Dechert is a great place to work as a junior litigation associate, if you like signing form letters, maintaining spreadsheets, and being forced to work on products liability (Vioxx).

The firm is profitable because it has decided to kick any clients to the curb who aren't willing to pay premium rates (something like $300/hr for a first year, and up from there). The net result is that once-thriving practice groups are slowly disappearing (cf. Amy Ginensky, co-chair of the litigation department, taking her practice to Pepper 2 years ago).

12:16, yeah, I think it is the Cira Center.

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=ciracentre-philadelphia-pa-usa

I hate that building. Slap in the face every time I step outside 30th Street Station to smoke. Pollution.

"Amlaw A-List"

I refuse to consider legitimate any ranking of firms that takes into account diversity or pro bono practice.

They fixed the picture.

Boies sounds like a sketchy place from anecdotal stories. Also, many Boies resumes are floating in the lateral market. I had heard they were super-selective. but doesn't appear that way. Many mediocre candidates.

Vault rankings are real misguided. Maybe Lat should try to take his own poll of ATL readers to rank the top 100 (or 50). He could do daily polls in groups of 10 (i.e. top 10, 11-20, etc.)

Don't bother with Munger unless you're Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and clerked at the appellate level. Seriously.

1:14--this is a great idea that I fully support!

Dechert is hands down the best firm in west philly.

(Ok, a little obscure - for those not in Philly, imagine that a big, well-regarded internationally known NY-based law firm moved to Queens.)

Boies is extremely selective in its New York, DC and Armonk offices (top 15% at top 5 schools for the most part). The other offices, however, are where the doc review gets farmed out, and they are less selective for obvious reasons.

11:37 - The compensation system is pretty simple - associates are paid the market rate each month. At the end of the year, the firm totals up the amount of hours worked times the billing rate times a fraction. The difference between that number and the base salary is the associate's bonus. The bottom line is that every first-year associate I know is making far above market (i.e., somewhere between $230K - $280K total).

1:02: Or, apparently, associate satisfaction, revenue per lawyer, or any other criteria aside from "prestige," which Paul Hastings has and Munger does not.

"Boies is extremely selective in its New York, DC and Armonk offices (top 15% at top 5 schools for the most part). The other offices, however, are where the doc review gets farmed out, and they are less selective for obvious reasons."

http://www.bsfllp.com/lawyers/data/0762

Yeah, this guy looks like a slouch.

Then again, he is working in OAKLAND, so maybe he isn't that smart after all.

"The bottom line is that every first-year associate I know is making far above market (i.e., somewhere between $230K - $280K total)."

This is completely and utterly false. Most associates at BSF make below-market bonuses, not above. The only way a first-year is pulling in $230-$280K is if they are billing about 3000 hours on full billable matters (i.e., no contingency cases or client development work).

1:32 - fair enough, my comment was definitely overbroad, and you're right to point out that Boies has some very impressive people in all its offices. Nevertheless, there's clearly more of a willingness to reach outside the top law schools in recruiting for the other offices.

Munger recruits from more schools than just Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. Granted, you have to be near the top of the class from any school, but you can get in from lower-ranked schools, including UCLA and University of Texas.

And, although they're chock-a-block full of clerks, both Supreme Court and otherwise, I know for a fact that there are plenty of attorneys there who did not clerk at all. Non-clerks are not second-class citizens; they get as interesting cases as anyone else.

I interviewed for a position with Dechert (Philadelphia) last summer. I ruled it out immediately. Full of unhappy people - from partners on down - working way too hard, even by BigLaw standards. There is no reason to go there when you can make just as much money, in a superior work environment, at other Philly firms (Ballard, Blank, MLB, etc.).

1:39 - Not sure where you're getting your information from, but an associate at Boies only has to bill about 2000 hours to get an approximately market (i.e. $30K) bonus. Most that I know bill far more.

The BSF compensation system is not simple. In my opinion, the 11:37 am post is inaccurate. During your BSF interview, ask the interviewer how many BSF associates in New York City did not receive a bonus last year. Then, ask the interviewer which firm those associates work for now. Then, go interview for those firms.

The BSF compensation system is not simple. In my opinion, the 11:37 am post is inaccurate. During your BSF interview, ask the interviewer how many BSF associates in New York City did not receive a bonus last year. Then, ask the interviewer which firm those associates work for now. Then, go interview for those firms.

30 Rock was originally about Dechert NY, but it would have been rated R - for totally rad.

1:51 - Those firms don't pay the same, and disparities grow over time. Philadelphia salaries, Dechert and Morgan included, are much lower than other big cities especially for upper years. Midlever will make at least 60 less once bonus is factored in than in DC, NY, Chicago, Boston, etc. But D and M do pay significantly better than every other firm in town.

12:51(1) -- a thread titled "Fall Recruiting . . ." has drawn the attention of more law students than lawyers. Brilliant observation!

Also, you must be new to ATL because pissing contests re law school rankings are pretty common here.

Munger and Irell seem to have higher law school grade cutoffs than other firms in LA, but that doesn't mean the firms are "better." Success in law -- unfortunately for some -- doesn't seem to correlate strongly with grades. I think both of these firms are really good places, but the pissing contest among essentially equivalent firms is pretty lame.

Bonuses are Dechert DC were terrible last year and with the pay raises, no one expects them to improve.

boies attorneys have the rep of major jerks, more so than the typical litigators.

also, wasn't there a lawsuit against them a few years ago, brought by female associates claiming discriminatory tracking (ie., men on partnership track, women are not).

Dechert SF has a couple of practice groups, but Finance and Real Estate (FRE) is the big one. Joe Heil is the managing partner of that office and one of the FRE group's leading rainmakers. They work particularly hard there, but generally have very interesting work and good mentorship. Morale is probably higher there than in most Dechert offices.

Generally, I've enjoyed working at Dechert and recommend it.

Does a law student from a top tier school (but not top ten school) with top 5 grades and appellate clerkship have a shot? Thanks.

I know there is compression in Philly. But what do bonuses look like at Dechert? With PPP that high, they can't be terrible.

Munger hires people with good grades and no personality. They aren't necessarily the best lawyers.

1:27 & 1:52 -- Your info is completely inaccurate. Many people at Boies billed in excess of 2000 hours and received no bonus. This has been a major issue at the firm. If first-years were getting $30K bonuses for billing 2000 hours, then why have there been so many complaints about bonuses? And why are associates leaving? There is a major disconnect between what you are reporting and what every other commenter on this board has reported about Boies. (I have only left this comment and 1:39.)

PPP are high because Dechert has perfected the art of the pyramid scheme that Biglaw firms strive for. They do not kick much back to the associates. Bonus structure at Dechert is almost strictly based on hitting particular billable targets. There is some wiggle room for discretionary bonuses, but it's rarely ever used. Your average bonus at Dechert (Philly) probably runs in the $15-$20k range.

The true chutzpah of the Dechert partnership was on full display in 2005, when they made a presentation regarding bonuses that included a powerpoint slide with two graphs overlaid on each other. One was TOTAL associate bonuses across all offices from 1999-2004. The other was AVERAGE PPP across all offices (including non-equity partners in the calculation) for the same years. The point of the graphs was to make it appear that associate bonuses were rising even faster than PPP. Which was of course pure BS.

La Lawyer,

Just because someone got an A in Civ Pro doesn't mean that he is going to be the best lawyer. Connecting with judges and juries requires more than law school exam writing skills. Sorry. Now get back to writing your pointless memo, or making some ridiculous argument in a footnote while some fratdick from Latham wipes your a$$ all over the courtroom.

I don't know about the other offices, but there's no way anyone's working in the Armonk office of BSF and billing less than 2300 hours as an associate. The bonus system there is complex. There is a "lodestar" number that the firm uses to factor your billables to determine how much value you added (and thus your bonus). This is complicated by the firm's plaintiff work, which usually is part-billable, part contingency. If you spend a lot of time on a plaintiff's case that hasn't cashed out, it will screw up your bonus. That's part of the problem. Also, iirc, at a certain point your hours become more heavily discounted, so there's a diminishing marginal returns scenario if you bill over, say, 2400 hours

1:39 is correct. A mid-level associate billing 2,000 hours at BSF will not get a bonus. Have you seen the latest Associate Survey? BSF came in dead last. It can't be that people who, according to your sources, are receiving above market compensation are ranking their firm last and rushing for the door. If you get an interview there ask what the attrition rate has been for the past two years or ask people how long have they have been at the firm.

2:33: top tier school (but not top ten school)?

Does not exist.

another LA lawyer:
selectivity != prestige but this will make you feel better

http://www.vault.com/nr/lawrankings.jsp?law2008=3&ch_id=242&qol_page=6
Vault selectivity rankings. #2 - Munger, #5 - Irell

1:02 wrote:

"Vault is so full of shit. I second the earlier poster: Irell and Munger are top LA firms and highly selective. Yet somehow the s-hole Paul Hastings ranks higher."

Law firms aren't graded upon the law school grades of incoming first years. They are graded upon getting good results for clients and profitability.

Sorry, Munger and Irell, notwithstanding their preference for associates with good grades, just can't compete in the aforementioned categories. You sound like a law student. Go back to cite checking.

Munger is selective with grades, and nothing else. Other much more succesful law firms, like Cravath, look at other important factors.

GDC; Latham; OMM > Munger

I worked at Dechert Philly's litigation department for three years. Dechert has an unwarranted reputation among other Philly attorneys for being a NYC style "sweat shop." I think those lawyers are just jealous. If you want to be a litigator in Philly - especially in products liability, securities lit'n, anti-trust, or white collar - then there is simply no better firm in the city. There is a great prisoners' rights program that ensures that every junior associate has tried his/her own case before a federal jury before the end of their second or third year. Like at any other big firm, if you don't play politics or are content with bad work, you can get stuck on a large doc review, but there is plenty of cutting edge work to go around if you play your cards right. The summer program is great too.

What keeps alot of Dechert associates less than 100% satisfied is the growing disparity between the equity partners' ballooning take of profits each year - with PPP heavy by any measure - and the heavy compression and mediocre bonuses that the associates receive. The disparity is just one reflection of very upper management's total lack of regard for the associate satisfaction. At one associate satisfaction meeting that the firm chairman organized two years ago, he compared his associates to babies with wet diapers. He analogized giving associates more work to changing a baby's wet diapers. Both are supposed to make the whining stop.

That being said, there are plenty of great partners at Dechert that show genuine concern for associates' professional development and overall satisfaction with the firm, including the chair of the litigation department. Also, the compensation is still the best in the city, with only Morgan Lewis in the same league. It's only if you look to New York, where the cost of liviing is much higher anyway, that you have a reason to grumble.

If you want to be a litigator in Philly, go to Dechert.

12:48: In which Dechert office are you an equity partner?

3:16--clearly you are wrong as Munger has turned down several Supreme Court clerks. They aren't just looking for high grades and prestigious resumes. Those are just prereqs.

much of dechert's profits were driven by its booming mortgage backed securities work. that will no longer be booming...part of the danger of relying on just a few "premium," high-revenue practice areas.

3:17 -- if you want to be a litigator in Philly, go to Hangley Aronchick. If you want to get crapped on for two years before you (maybe) get to take a deposition, go to Dechert. If you're looking for a free trip to London, summer at Dechert.

3:38 Agreed. Hangley is a great gig too, even better than Dechert I would concede if you want to stay in Philly long term. However, if you don't want to stay in Philly forever, I think it is better to go to Dechert, whose name carries more weight nationally than Hangley. And you can take depositions at Dechert. I took four of them myself in my first three years, not super, but not bad in BigLaw terms. But I'll take your suggestion as a friendly amenment.

If you want to be a litigator in Philly and are committed to staying in Philly for the long haul, go to Hangley or Dechert. If you want to be a litigator in Philly but think you'll move to another city after a couple of years, just go to Dechert.

I summered at Dechert (Philly) and worked there for almost 6 years. It can be a great place to work if you go in with the understanding that it is a firm that has been (and still is somewhat) in transition - it used to be a "Philly" firm and is now a national/international firm; and the PPP #'s speak for themselves. Not everyone has enjoyed the change - obviously, as the rates go up and the firm becomes a bigger and bigger player in certain areas, some clients have been priced out (and so some folks may have lost some of the work they liked). That being said, like a lot of places, your daily life will depend a lot on what partner(s) you work with. I happened to be in a great group with people I really liked. Of course, not everyone felt the same way. I look back fondly on my time there!

2:33 -- yes, probably a very good one if, for example, you're coming from UCLA.

3:17 -- I see your point as far as name rec (obviously), and haven't been shy about pimping the Dechert name on my own resume after leaving. I would stress to any litigator who thinks they're going to be in Philly or its environs for any length of time that their best option is Hangley. Dechert is essentially a crapshoot for the first few years (you're really going to hate life if you don't like the people you work with). Also, it really doesn't offer that much training, IMO. The prisoners' rights cases help, but when I was there 4th and 5th years were first-chairing those, meaning that younger associates STILL weren't getting practical experience.

All that said, the money they pay and the name recognition could be worth the bargain for some folks. (Of course, Hangley pays $135k to first years, and is less compressed than Dechert for midlevel associates).

3:25

"Munger has turned down several Supreme Court clerks . . ."

Not hiring a Supreme Court clerk is just plain stupid.

RE: Dechert's Financial Service Group

If you end up in this group, get ready to be part of an international, top-tier practice group stuck within a firm still run by a bunch of Philly litigators. It can be annoying at times.

How soon we forget.

December 09, 2002. LAYOFFS AT DECHERT

Philadelphia's Dechert laid off nine associates in its D.C. office last week; all were part of the financial services group. "Had we had the work, we would have kept all of them," says Jeffrey Puretz, deputy chair of the practice. Dechert's financial services practice grew "explosively" from 1998 to 2000, but has leveled off, Puretz says, leaving the 85-lawyer D.C. office with "large incoming classes [of associates], larger than we really needed." Puretz says the firm gave the associates, most of them at the junior level, severance packages that "we hope will see them through their next positions." After the layoffs, Dechert's D.C. financial services group stands at 65 lawyers.

Lat,
These Vault-grouped threads are great, but it also would be nice to have threads grouping comparable firms from different markets (i.e. comparing Munger and Irell from LA with Keker in SF and Williams & Connolly and Kellogg Huber in DC).

Dechert is a sweatshop in Philly and a lifetyle firm in NY. Same hours at either. Long hours but few weekends. Mostly nice people, though I can think of exceptions. I've been at three firms and so far prefer Dechert. Pay could be better in Philly.

Boies is an unusual firm and highly selective. It's a firm for people who want to focus on the practice of law rather than show off new suits. It and Susman are the only firms in the country where its associates may choose to be part of a lead plaintiff counsel team on huge MDL class actions, while also work on high-profile defense cases. The firm represented Gore in 2000 and was on retainer to represent Kerry in 2004.

It's the only firm that pays big law salaries while nurturing a culture of misfit academic entrepreneurs. It's not unusual for an attorney to have a PhD in philosophy. Many, many partners (in some offices the vast majority) only worked in government prior to joining.

It is the only firm that pays its associates like partners: you make a percentage of what you bill / earn on contingency. You eat what you kill. You also decide the level of risk you're comfortable with.

If you doubt the quality of Boies lawyers, check out page two (bio's of all new associates): http://www.bsfllp.com/news/firm_reports/000003/_res/id=sa_File1/FirmReport_November%202006.pdf

Posted at 2:34 am – hmmm. Someone at Boies worked late last night (Alana).

3:06 - "top tier school (but not top ten school) Does not exist"

Are you saying that the 11-25 schools are not top tier? Northwestern, GULC, Texas -- these are not top tier schools?

You're either flaming or you're an idiot.

You'd have to be an idiot to base your view of a law firm on its Vault ranking.

I just got a callback from McDermott Will & Emery. Does anyone have any info on the firm?

what office?

McDermott Will Emery's NY office.

Ultimately, between Dechert and MLB, I'd stick with MLB since your shot a partner is way better at MLB. Additionally, I think that prestige matters and yes, Dechert is on the way up, but MLB will always have a bit of a prestige edge.

I love how someone -- presumably a partner working at 2:30 AM -- posted a link to bios of new associates at Boies who have started since summer of 2006 (in the firm's newsletter). I count 19 people on there. Interestingly, two of them are no longer on the firm's website. People seem to leave very quickly.

10:29 - Also look at The American Lawyer for the associate satisfaction survey - Boies - dead last

Any thoughts on McDermott in Boston?

Or McDermott in Miami? Please!

Or the "McDermott partner who would rather introduce you to his mistress than his client."

what office?

Anyone know what the turnaround time for an Irell callback might be? I get the sense that I got dinged, but for some reason I'm holding out hope. Anyone?

Doesn't anybody have MWE info? Everybody wants it, but nobody has it. I'm looking at OC.

Anyone have anything to say about MWE's Chicago office?

No info on MWE-NY or Chicago. But MWE is growing rapidly on the West Coast, especially in IP, as noted in American Lawyer and elsewhere, adding several prominent partners from top firms.

LA office (Century City) now has over 100 lawyers total. San Diego (recently opened, I think) is growing quickly. Silicon Valley and OC offices are also supposed to be filled with rainmakers. MWE has been involved in some recent high profile patent cases (the Fed Cir en banc Seagate decision; the iPod multi-front patent war; etc.).

thoughts of MWE DC?