Nationwide Pay Raise Watch: Troutman Sanders
The dominoes are falling in Atlanta. Last night, Troutman Sanders made its associate pay raise announcement.
From the Fulton County Daily Report:
Troutman Sanders raised associate pay $15,000 across the board in its Atlanta, Washington, Virginia and North Carolina offices Thursday, with the starting salary going from $130,000 to $145,000.The firm's managing partner, Robert W. Webb Jr., announced the pay increase to associates at 5 p.m. Thursday.
The raises are effective Jan. 1, 2008, the same date the pay raise that Alston & Bird announced to its Atlanta associates last week goes into effect. Earlier this week, King & Spalding matched Alston's $15,000 increase in starting pay, also effective Jan. 1, but did not raise pay for more senior associates.
Correction: According to a source at the firm, as well as various commenters, "Troutman's DC and Tysons Corner offices have starting salaries of $160K as a result of the increase. (Troutman's Atlanta office is starting at $145K)."
What's most noteworthy about this raise, as pointed out to us by several tipsters, is that it's "across the board" -- not just for first- or second-year associates. In Atlanta, where salary compression for more senior associates is a serious issue, an across-the-board raise of $15,000 is good news indeed. It's better than what has been announced thus far by Alston & Bird and King & Spalding.
More discussion, after the jump.
To those who complain about Atlanta associate pay, the partners at ATL firms would probably point out this fact, from the FCDR article:
When the raise takes effect in January, it will mean a 45 percent increase in starting pay in a mere two years for associates at Troutman, Alston & Bird and King & Spalding.
Now what about compression -- will the Troutman Sanders raise help out on this front? One source at a rival firm notes: "[T]he scale appears less compressed than Alston & Bird's -- though Troutman was previously on a merit-based system, so I am not sure what 15K across the board translates to in terms of a scale."
Update: A source at Troutman sheds more light on the matter:
1. After the first year, salaries are determined individually ("there's no transparency at all").2. In terms of this raise, "$15K across the board means that whatever you make today, you'll make 15k more" after the raise takes effect.
3. "This $15K is in addition to any merit raise an associate might get after the review process this fall. Both raises take effect on January 1, 2008."
P.S. Random aside, from a tipster: "Troutman Sanders offers zero clerkship bonus. Nada. Zilch."
Question: According to the firm's NALP form, Troutman Sanders pays no clerkship bonus. But according to this comment, the firm offers a $10,000 clerkship bonus. If you can clear up the confusion, please email us.
Correction: Multiple sources have informed us, by email, that (1) Troutman now offers a $10K clerkship bonus and (2) this fall will be the first year of this policy.
Troutman Sanders joins bandwagon, raises first-years' pay [Fulton County Daily Report]
(83) Comments
Troutman offers a 10,000 clerkship bonus. They just raised it from 5,000.
Roger Troutman is awesome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZC9rpGPgSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNN3HtCIZXM&mode=related&search=
Troutman pushing the Atlanta market just shows how cheap A&B and K&S, managed by the Hayes brothers, are.
This is great news. The other big Atlanta firms have no where left to hide. Many believed Troutman wouldn't raise as they have lower PPP than many other big firms in town. Now the likes of Kilpatrick, Sutherland, McKenna, Morris Manning (all with PPP higher than Troutman) have no excuses.
Scatman Crothers to 190k!
Alston & Bird got bested by Troutman. Ha. Just another reason why Alston is not the elite firm everybody thinks it is. Alston's days at the top are numbered.
Troutman didn't really best anyone though from what I can see. They operate on a merit not lockstep system. My guess is that most people don't max out the merit money.
145K in DC too? What gives?
And they're one of the only firms I've ever heard of who regularly lay their associates off in their non-NYC/ATL offices. Personally, I'd be pretty concerned about which of my friends were going to get laid off to compensate for a raise that that firm can scarcely afford.
Lat, this is not "good news indeed." Across the board raises worsen compression, because that extra $15k is a much larger percentage raise for a first year than 7th year. Across the board raises are how we got into this mess inthe first place.
Is this better than Alston's raise? Sure. But that's kind of like saying getting punched in the eye is marginally better than getting kicked in the balls. Unless and until Atlanta firms raise senior associates more than first years, we're still suffering under compression that leaves senior associate pay lagging behind all other markets.
Sad that Atlanta associates are excited about a "raise" that does jack shit to address compression (and, indeed, makes it even worse).
Wake up. K&S or PH need to step up and pay their folks on a non-compressed scale that puts their most valuable assocaites (mid-level and senior) on par with (not equal to, but a fair percentage of) associate pay in other markets.
Where's the rest of the Atlanta big firm crowd? Anyone have news/rumors to report?
I am confused as to how this fixes compression.
given the old scale with 15k across the board.
130 > 145
135 > 150
140 > 155
147 > 162
157 > 172
170 > 185
180 > 195
185 > 200
2k more in year 4 and 5 and 5k more in 6/7?
Agreed. The most this does is demonstrate how pathetic the Alston raise is. While it is better than Alston's decision to compress salaries further, it by no means fixes the problem. The phrase "good news indeed" should be removed from this post immediately.
Are they really paying $145 in Norfolk, VA and Va Beach, VA? That would put them ahead of market I believe.
Atlanta to $35k!
10:58 -- most markets in the country outside of NY, DC, and CA suffer from significant compression. Based on Lat's recent series of posts, Atlanta associates are a lot better off than associates in many other markets (better starting pay and raises) and the Atlanta market as a whole (not just K&S' 3 big deals a year) hasn't been able to draw in "outsider firms" or the same level of work performed in NY, DC, and CA.
Ordinarily, I don't agree with the people who tell associates in smaller markets to quit whining based on a lower COL, etc. But ATL has been dominated by the whining of Atlanta associates for months now and it's getting old. Take your raises, accept reality, and please move on with your lives. I would rather hear from Loyola 2L at this point. As far as criticizing Lat's characterization of this thread, if it weren't for Lat, you probably wouldn't have gotten any raise at all.
Anyone think that Lat is on the ATL big firm payroll? I'm starting to.
First he argued that ATL associates do not deserve raises because one article mentioned a three-bedroom house for sale in a shitty neighborhood for $134,000. Now he proclaims the compression problem solved, when compression is the result of raises of unequal PERCENTAGES (not absolute dollars).
I mean if a Senior partner complaining about compensation got the same $15,000 raise as a first year, you bet he would see through. As a percentage of income, it wouldn't even cover inflation.
Well, 11:11, the beauty of this thread is that it clearly indicates that it is dealing with the Atlanta thread. If you are not interested in that market, you can simply pass on by.
As far as most markets outside of NY, DC and CA suffering from compression -- I think you are forgetting Texas, Chicago, and Charlotte. Besides, why shouldn't all markets reward mid-levels and seniors for the significant contributions they make to firms? The argument that "other firms" don't do it, doesn't fly, when partners are making PPP 4 to 7 times what a senior associate makes.
most markets in the country outside of NY, DC, and CA suffer from significant compression
====================
Oh really? Which ones?
Boston -- no
Houston -- not after V&E
Dallas -- see above re: Houston
Chicago -- no
Charlotte -- no, even the Atlanta based firms are decompressed there
So I guess you're talking about places like Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, etc. Who cares. Atlanta is bigger and its legal market much deeper.
You have a point if you raise Philly, I suppose, but that's about it. And the fact that there are two outliers doesn't mean compression is somehow justified there.
If you don't like reading posts about ATlanta, I'd recommend not reading threads about Troutman Sanders, which is -- who'd have thunk it -- an ATLANTA BASED FIRM. I personally don't like reading posts whining about whining, but there's no sure way to avoid those.
10:51 AM -- The article posted on this thread is not accurate -- the DC and Tysons Corner offices are now starting at $160K after the increase (Atlanta is the one at $145k).
That paper got it wrong - Troutman is now at 160K in DC
enough:
Yeah, people in Atlanta are so da&* lucky. I'm in Atlanta and I don't get why everyone keeps bitching. Like how a 7th year here in Altanta gets paid $70-80K less than a 7th year in Houston and Dallas, where they do less sophisticated work in every single niche (except oil and gas), where no Texas-based firm can touch $1.5 PPP, and where COL is lower than Atlanta. It doesn't make sense to me. And how Atlantians make almost half a million less than Texas associates over a seven-year career--it's so great I can hardly contain my complete contentment. And how people in Charlotte--a cow town with a few big banks and mind-numbing securitization work--make so much more up the scale. Atlanta associates don't know how good they got it--they should be thrilled at being paid below other, inferior, markets.
Ordinarily, I don't flame stupid people who talk out of their ass and know no facts. But since I am feeling so completely content today, I decided to make an exception.
If you don't know what you are talking about, keep your mouth shut.
10:58, 11:14, etc.:
1. A $15K across the board raise is good because (unlike other ATL firms) Troutman isn't shrinking the size of the pay steps between classes as it raises.
2. Thanks for attacking Lat. Good luck in getting him to cover Atlanta ever again.
11:36, how is simply disagreeing with Lat's characterization "attacking" him? Grow up. If you point out one thing in my 10:58 post that even resembles an attack I'll give you $50.
I didn't expect any Atlanta associates to agree with my comment, but it's a bit hard to avoid the Atlanta comments since there have been multiple Atlanta related threads in the past few weeks AND the Atlanta complaints appear on pretty much EVERY thread about compensation or perks. You are correct that I don't have to read any thread on ATL, but really, Lat is in collusion with the Atlanta firms now? Hopefully you'll all piss him off enough with your whining that he'll give you the same treatment he has given to the law clerks.
Atlanta to Sales Tax Holiday
10:58, the sarcasm of your paragraph 2 is tantamount to an attack.
11:14 is definitely an attack on Lat's ethics.
11:39: Isn't $50 the pay raise between 4th and 5th years at Troutman?
I was being facetious, using hyperbole. Damn, get a sense of humor.
wHERE CAN i TANTAMOUNT SOME WHITE GIRLS?
ATL doesn't need ATL anyway. The Fulton County Daily Report has great coverage of Atlanta pay raise news.
Lat, no need to cover Atlanta if you don't want to. There are other outlets we can go to.
wow. troutman ALL IN with 7-2 unsuited.
troutman was laying people off b/c of financial problems $30k raises ago.
i'd be wetting my pants if I were a Troutman associate or new partner.
well I hope PH does not follow suit on this. No way you can justify paying the same when PPP are 1 million dollars more than TS.
Sarcasm? Tantamount? Give me a break. If I wanted to attack Lat I could do it directly. Like this: you are an idiot, now wet your panties in another thread.
How can Alston and Sutherland still be paying 145 in DC? What's the story with that?
Helmuth -- I'm not sure where you're getting your information about Troutman having financial problems. The firm is growing at a rapid rate and is having a breakout year for FY 2007. Troutman's NYC office has grown to over 130 attorneys, it just opened a Shanghai office and is looking to acquire a west coast firm to expand its finance and energy practices out in California.
dsa
dsa
Anyone know whether Moore Van Allen will likely go to 160k in Charlotte? They've been at 145 for awhile it seems.
but it's a bit hard to avoid the Atlanta comments since there have been multiple Atlanta related threads in the past few weeks AND the Atlanta complaints appear on pretty much EVERY thread about compensation or perks.
=================
I guess someone is making you click on the Atlanta threads. Because if you didn't click on them, you'd cut your exposure to Atlanta posts by about 80%.
Man, I hate that Washington Post. So many articles about Washington. I want to read about Peoria!
But you'll check back again to read this post, won't you? And then reply with more garbage about too many Atlanta posts. I'm crying in my beer for you. Really.
Any rumors about what other Atlanta firms are planning? Hopefully someone will step up and address compression and win the admiration and acclaim of all Atlanta associates.
Phoenix sucks
12:30, can you see your firm doing it? Weighed against equity partner rent seeking and clients' impressions, our admiration and acclaim aren't worth all that much. Which pretty much sums up the Atlanta market for associates.
Here is a completely uncompressed pay scale based on what K&S pays its DC associates. The scale on the left is their DC scale, and the scale on the right is a $145k scale with the same percentage raises each year. This is completely fair, and all Atlanta firms should adopt this scale immediately. There is no fair reason not to adopt this scale if you have another office on a similar $160k scale somewhere else in the country.
160,000 145,000
170,000 154,063
185,000 167,656
210,000 190,313
230,000 208,438
250,000 226,563
265,000 240,156
TS Summer lunches were limited to $15 per head this summer. Next summer, it will be the Varsity or nothing....
I think Helmuth is probably getting his information from the fact that they laid off a number of associates in Richmond, NoVA, etc. Yes, the New York office is doing very well, but that pretty new building that they built in Richmond has a LOT of open associate offices-- and it's not because they're on vacation.
12:39
Sadly, I do not see my firm stepping up to fix compression (but I am holding out hope because I know the people driving the decision here are genuinely good folks).
And I don't disagree with your point. But it strikes me as odd that everyone always argues that clients will get heartburn over a fair raise for mid-levels and senior associates but never explains to me why they don't get upset at seeing PPP numbers well over $1.4 million.
K&S-Go Uncompressed's scale is utterly fair and no serious argument can be made to the contrary, but I don't see it happening here. Alas.
Troutman is going the way of PoGo, it is only a matter of time. But, it is nice that their partners try to maintain the appearance of prosperity in the meantime.
Any word on how Troutman's raise to $145k in Raleigh will impact the markets in Raleigh, Charlotte, etc.?
There are several regional firms in NC that are now falling WAY behind in associate compensation. With most noteworthy firms now paying either $145k or $160 in NC, firms like Kennedy Covington and Womble Carlyle need to step up. They are looking more and more like second tier, mom & pop firms by the day.
LV and 12:11 -- LV is right about the Richmond office, but that is a direct result of Troutman increasing its billing rates (i.e., moving up to the ranks of a national firm) and forcing out practice groups that couldn't bill out at higher rates (Richmond clients still demand lower rates). As for its NoVA office -- LV's not entirely correct there. The NoVA office lost a lot of its litigation associates 2 years ago solely because of the litigation drought that happened a few years back, but is slowly recovering. That office is known as a finance boutique anyway. Its lending and structured finance practice group has grown substantially and is looking to further expand.
Who cares about compression? I just don't get it. Does it really make you feel like less of a lawyer to know that a LS grad is only making $15K less than you when you're cashing a check for $160. Doesn't bother me a bit. I don't care how unproductive anyone else is. I'm gonna go spend my lunch hour looking at Porches (well ok, maybe a new mini van for my better half).
Yes it bothers me that my firm pays me less than it does someone in a different city with less experience and who earns the firm less per hour. And it should you, too.
You are simply being paid a smaller share of what you earn for the firm.
And, as a result, you are subsidizing the salary of that first year in another city who is out shopping for a porsche (and not a minivan).
Seems strange to me that idiot's like 11:26 think Atlanta is so far superior to so many markets that indicate otherwise. If the work you were doing was as valuable as Charlotte or Houston work, wouldn't you get paid like Charlotte or Houston? Something to think about ...
Seems strange to me that idiots like 11:26 think Atlanta is so far superior to so many markets that indicate otherwise. If the work you were doing was as valuable as Charlotte or Houston work, wouldn't you get paid like Charlotte or Houston? Something to think about ...
2:00, thank you for finally explaining the labor market under US capitalism in a way that even I, a humble ATL atty, can understand. I never knew how simple it could be! Please contact me offline -- I'm looking for someone who really "gets it" to manage my investment portfolio!
Uh, 2:01. I think it was pretty obvious that 11:26 was being--how to do you say--"ironcial".
God, I can't believe some of you androids have made it so far in life with so little sense (of humor).
Seems strange to me that idiot's like 11:26 think Atlanta is so far superior to so many markets that indicate otherwise. If the work you were doing was as valuable as Charlotte or Houston work, wouldn't you get paid like Charlotte or Houston? Something to think about ...
================
Something else to think about would be your inability to properly use an apostrophe. Come to think of it, that first sentence is just an overall nightmare. How do markets "indicate otherwise?" By pointing, or taking out adds in newspapers?
Substantively, think about this: the work being done in Atl is by and large more profitable than Charlotte. The partners here are just pocketing the money.
2:08 that was hillarious
but not the part about partners pocketing the money.
2:08: peeple in ATL spel guud!!!
Markets indicate otherwise by paying associates more.
2:08, try to spell "ads" properly and put the question mark on the appropriate side of the closing quotation mark the next time that you are criticizing someone else's use of an apostrophe. It will make your argument much more convincing.
Stop with the grammer/spelling police.. sheesh.
I am willing to accept what the Atlanta associates say about the Atlanta market being as strong (or stronger) than the Charlotte and Houston markets. However, if that's the case, then the top Atlanta firms are all run by greedy morons with no business sense. The Atlanta associates have the right to complain about this as much as any of the other whiners on ATL, but I find it interesting that they want to publicize to the world that their firms suck and are headed straight down the toilet based on the greed of the partners.
We don't need no "grammer" police in these parts.
I am not willing to accept what the Atlanta associates say about the Atlanta market being as strong (or stronger) than the Charlotte and Houston markets. The facts directly contradict such an assertion.
Atlanta List Of Shame:
Sutherland Asbill
Kilpatrick Stockton
Morris Manning
McKenna Long
Arnall Golden
Smith Gambrell
Powell Goldstein
Jones Day
Paul Hastings
Holland & Knight
Womble Carlyle
Nelson Mullins
Greenberg
Carlton Fields
DLA
Its pretty late Friday, and no word from any other BIGLAW ATL firms... hmmm.
^ they are "calibrating"
They are all busy recovering from massive "associate raise" induced strokes/hernias/heart attacks, etc.
All I know is they better get busy... OCI is in full gear. Time to pay up or get left behind.
I may be crazy, but with Troutman raising, it appears as though the rest of Atlanta BigLaw has no choice but to raise.
If only K&S and A&B had raised, the rest of the pack could have banded together and resisted raising, but not now. Many felt Troutman was a long-shot to raise at all and now that they are the first firm outside of the Big 2 to raise, the rest of the pack must be sweating bullets. How can the likes of Sutherland, McKenna, MMM, and Kilpatrick not raise now? Moreover, the nationals (JD, DLA, H+K, Greenberg) will likely be forced to keep up as well.
What will be even more interesting is to see what the regional bunch do (Womble, Nelson Mullins, Carlon Fields, etc.). Will this mark a tipping point in the market? Will Atlanta turn into a three tiered market -- firms paying $160, firms paying $145k, and firms paying $130k? With so many firms now (and likely to start) paying $145, the firms who try to stand pat at $130k will see a steep decline in their talent pool.
Hell, midsized shops like Smith Moore, Wargo & French, Burr & Foreman. Parker Hudson, and Rogers & Harden are all paying $130k in Atanta... If Womble Carlyle, Nelson Mullins, et al. don't pay $145k, they will be joining these ranks.
I don't see Atlanta people complaining that their firms suck, 3:02. Many of us like our firms and the work we do. We would like to be compensated, at least on a $145,000 uncompressed scale, however.
I don't see how this is any different from Boston and Texas pushing for $160,000 uncompressed or NY now pushing for $190,000 uncompressed.
It's clear that A&B is no longer the powerhouse it used to be -- if you think about it, it's not that surprising that Troutman raised yesterday. According to the the numbers, Troutman's actually gaining ground on A&B and likely will pass it in the next few years. Troutman is 3rd in Atlanta in revenue and 1st in revenue growth in Atlanta (23% versus AB's 17%) and supposedly Troutman's having its best year yet in 2007. I don't think Troutman's struggling to make ends meet with this salary increase.
"Yes it bothers me that my firm pays me less than it does someone in a different city with less experience and who earns the firm less per hour. And it should you, too.
You are simply being paid a smaller share of what you earn for the firm.
And, as a result, you are subsidizing the salary of that first year in another city who is out shopping for a porsche (and not a minivan). "
But, Demystified,
ATL Salaries used to be MUCH MCUH lower than other markets. You knew going in that you'd be making less as a mid-level than 1st years make at real big market firms.
ATL Associates: Quit Whining or Move.
Actually, 6:18pm, when Atlanta went to $115,000 in January of 2006 they were paying very close to what first years were making in Charlotte, Houston, DC, etc. and there was not nearly the compression that we have now.
7:57--Houston had been paying $115,000 since 2001.
I said that WHEN Atlanta went to $115k it was paying very close to those other cities. I didn't say that before they went to $115k they were paying close to those other cities. The move to $115k was in large part a result of the fact that Atlanta was paying less than Houston, etc.
6:00 p.m. Were you stoned when you wrote that Troutman is gaining on A&B?
Lat: Troutman's raise is not yet better than K&S -- K&S raised first years the same and has not yet announced the rest.
K&S has a $15K clerkship bonus, but I've heard at least one new person in the K&S Atl. office recently got a D.C.-sized bonus. Can anyone confirm?
Folks should step back and get a bit of perspective.
By any measure, if you are quibbling about compression at law firms, you are so far north on Mazlows hierarchy of needs as to not be talking about needs at all.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, I don't want to be undercompensated. But, at the end of the day, I don't feel undercompensated. I could make more money, theoretically, in Houston.
The downside is (for me) I would have to live in Houston.
I like where I'm at and would prefer to be a lawyer with an office downtown than a businessperson with a cubicle in the 'burbs.
If Atlanta compression sucks so bad, vote. With your feet.
Otherwise, you just look whiny.
Yesterday, PH basically pulled a K&S and matched the 1st year salary at 145k, reserving rights for more senior attorneys. This was done after the TS raise.
My feeling is that PH is on board with an uncompressed Charlotte scale at 145, but will not be the first to act on this issue. This leaves K&S.
I am not sure what PH will do if K&S simply matches TS. I do not think the decision has been made. My gut tells me that they would match the TS scale (if K&S matches), but you have to remember that PH decided to pay Atlanta associates the same bonus as its other non-NYC offices. Over two years later, no other Atlanta firms are paying these types of bonuses. Therefore, it's hard to say that PH merely matched the market with respect to bonuses.
PH used to pay "above market" before they followed the herd on the last raise. They used to outpay the locals by about 3k across the board.
They have a tremendous opportunity now to go to a scale that really shows a commitment to the mid and senior associates. A 145k Charlotte scale would be most welcome and deserved.
The point above (12:44) about firms with other offices at higher scales really illustrates the point. Why should the value between years not hold the same ratio as the other offices? Clearly same year associates should be measured the same way even with different starting points.