Don't forget Foley and Lardner--though all the other criticisms of the firm for not being top tier may be true (or not), their IP practice is arguably one of the top 5 in the nation. Also they pay the 160k scale for all IP attorneys. Now only if they would get their clerkship bonus' in line with everyone else.

this website has gone from being interesting gossip to becoming a lame chat-room for lawyers.

bonus'=bonuses, god I suck

so pretty impossible to get into any of these firms without a technical degree, eh?

There are lots of different boutiques depending on the locale (hence the idea of a boutique). If you want to do patent litigation, don't go to a boutique, they have very little of it. If you want to do prosecution and opinion work, go for it, although my impression is that many boutiques like Morgan & Finnegan, Darby, and Frommer Lawrence & Haug (or so rumor has it) are barely surviving because they tried to grow too fast when they should have stayed very small, and they failed to anticipate market changes like GP firms taking most of the patent litigation work.

"Kirkland, Irell, MoFo, Jones Day, Ropes & Gray"

MoFo, nope.

The best BigLaw for IP is Wilson Sonsini.

No, the best BigLaw for IP is WilmerHale

No, the best BigLaw for IP is Orrick.

No, the best BigLaw for IP is Old Glory.

Cravath has lots of great IP work.

I like Harness, Dickey & Pierce. Not because they're BigLaw, but because they have a name that makes me giggle.

No, you are all wrong... the best Biglaw for IP is Kirkland (by far)

The real issue about picking a firm for IP litigation is figuring out if the firm's leaders look like you. Some firms put an enormous emphasis on a scientific undergrad degree or even a PhD. Other firms (ie WilmerHale) hire more broadly and then push associates to learn the science for each case.

If you don't have a science degree, don't try to work at one of the firms that wants everyone to a technical degree. If you want a chance to work on a broad span of cases, don't go to a firm that assigns biology undergrads to biology cases and EEs to software cases.

Kirkland, by far, for sure. $1.52b verdict AND a victory for defendants in the plaintiff-loving E.D.Tex ("rocket docket") in the last five months alone.

Are there any firms that do great patent litigation AND prosecution? Or is it always divided between BigLaw for one and boutiques for the other?

Also - anyone have info on what NoVa / DC patent boutiques pay and what lifestyle is like?

"Are there any firms that do great patent litigation AND prosecution? Or is it always divided between BigLaw for one and boutiques for the other?"

Finnegan Henderson goes both ways very well.

As for the NoVa lifestyle question - I'm willing to bet that "Harness, Dickey, & Pierce" is extremely enjoyable for a small segment of the population and torture for the rest.

How's the quality of life at Fitzpatrick Cella -- New York?

Knobbe Martens is excellent in both litigation and prosecution - plus it's lifestyle.

11:40:

I've heard terrific things about QoL at Fitzpatrick. Getting called in on weekends is a rarity.

11:35:

Most IP firms do a good mix of work, though some have a reputation as "prosecution mills."

11:02:

Most of these firms are getting good patent litigation. More than 50% of Kenyon's work is probably patent litigation, and I'd expect similar numbers at all of the boutiques in NYC. If you go to DC, however, you'll likely find more prosecution work being done.

And Baker Botts is the best BigLaw shop for IP.

cutty asked:
"so pretty impossible to get into any of these firms without a technical degree, eh?"

i say: not necessarily. no tech degree is required for trademark/copyright work, litigation, or for the corporate side of IP. On the other hand, it certainly doesn't hurt to be able to take on any assignment, and many places prefer people who can, say, prosecute patents and trademarks.

a big advantage of IP is the ability to work on corporate and litigation ends of the spectrum. one day you might be reviewing a merger agreement, while the next you're prepping for an expert witness deposition. also, in many big GP firms, the IP group is a former boutique, and that tends to lend itself to a more tightly-knit, collegial group than elsewhere in the firm.

Baker Botts NY has a good split of prosecution and litigation work

Any thoughts on Ropes & Gray's IP litigation practice (quality of work, culture, hours, etc.)?

I've worked at both boutiques and GP firms. Even though GP firms love having a patent practice, they often treat patent attorneys as the red-headed step children of the firm. Especially prosecutors. Patent attorneys can be seen as only providing a service to the firms big clients.

Let's not forget Howrey...

@Lame
Woodcock just beat the piss out of Kirkland.

11:35 - Townsend is split about 50-50 between litigation and prosecution. I think they just opened a D.C. office.

12:01 is right. $45million, before the judge trebles the verdict.

and Kirkland lost that $1.5b verdict on JMOL, i believe.

What's keeping these boutiques from getting gobbled up by BigLaw like we've seen before?

well, i feel i'm being ignored by every IP firm imaginable because i do not have a technical degree. and the majority of soft-IP firms who deal in mainly TM/copyright do not hire graduates. so i feel like i'm going to have to settle for another field completely.

which is frustrating because i know what i want to do!

I heard good things about working at Darby, is that true ?

gobble gobble - Some of us don't want to work for GP firms. When the approach we tell them where to go.

Cutty - Townsend is hiring TM attorneys.

Piss off softie.

11:31-you're probably a non-IP associate at Kirkland who didn't get the memo that Fish and Richardson got the judge to grant JMOL reducing the 1.5B verdict to NOTHING.

Fish and Richardson handles the most IP litigation of any law firm in the country and its prosecution practice is excellent.

thank you.

aw no NYC office!

Jones Day has a pretty impressive IP litigation practice. It seems to be growing, too.

interesting GA discussion about F&R's prosecution practice:

http://www.infirmation.com/bboard/clubs-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003CCY

Does anyone have any info on Hunton & Williams IP litigation?

IP - because paying your own law school tuition is for chumps.

I do IP at WilmerHale, and it's really enjoyable. The people are nice, the work is varied, and I use my technical degree in a way that is must more rewarding than being an engineer.

That last part has nothing to do with any firm specifically :)

12:34

Jones Day = Steaming Pile of ****

I heard that Orrick is THE firm in SV for IP/patent work. Any truth to this? How does Wilson stack up?

How would people compare Finnegan Henderson to Fish & Richardson?

i don't know if orrick is THE firm in sv for ip, but i do hear very good things about it. reputation-wise, wilson probably beats everyone in the area, but orrick is supposed to be a good intersection of reputation and environment. in sv, also consider heller, fenwick, and townsend.

12:51, WSGR is great but they just got a lot of clients burned over stock option backdating and bad corporate advice.

I think Orrick might be the best SV IP spot- like WSGR they do everything for the tech cos- because when Acer (Orrick) buys Gateway, for example, even M&A work has a huge IP component (valuation, effect on licenses and other deals, etc.).

All I know for sure is that the big O pays better.

what about brinks hofer?

isn't WSGR's work mostly transactional though? they don't have a big lit rep. orrick and heller are both bigger names for ip lit in SV/SF (in the case of Heller -- Orrick has like 5 IP guys in their SF office).

quinn and keker too.

Why wont more east coast firms allow split summers ??????

12:49

On what basis do you make this claim?

11:53, more than 80% of Kenyon work is litigation. I don't think Kenyon has much in terms of a domestic patent practice - it's mostly from a select few (and large) European clients. I wonder how the recent change in patent rules will affect the practice.

Also, has Kenyon stopped bleeding associates? Or are associates still leaving in droves (more than normal attrition numbers)

Good news: with everyone leaving, they have enough space to give a NYC office to every associate and paralegal (except the lowly first years).

Kenyon is still bleeding

1:18,
I read a post here on ATL that Brinks screwed over half of their SAs and didn't give them offers. Sounds like they're struggling.

kenyon is bleeding and they refuse to hire non-techs

SDKGI is the premier IP firm, both in litigation and prosecution. Half of the Fortune 100 companies use the firm and rely on it for bet the company cases. It's considered the firm of choice for Ivy league law students looking for challenging work that is personally and financially rewarding. All other firms pale in comparison. I'm not even sure why people are mentioning other firms. Obviously the people posting here haven't a clue about IP work

McDermott Will and Emory sounds pretty desperate to hire IP techies on the west coast.

what the hell is SDKGI?

I know Morgan & Finnegan has a mix of prosecution and litigation. What's the word on them? Also, what's the word on Loeb & Loeb in NY?

SDKGI is a made-up acronym. the whole comment is tongue-in-cheek.

any info on Drinker Biddle in Phila/Chicago/DC? their IP group looks pretty sizeable.

Looking for 'soft' IP? BakerBotts hires non-technical types. For sure, there are several highly regarded folks that specialize in TM or litigation that have had plenty of success without technical degrees. What we don't have any of (and I don't know any big firms that do) is folks whose practice is pure IP transactional without a patent prosecution background. It's more likely that a corporate attorney becomes known as the guy to do IP clauses than an IP guy becomes that person. I know Irell & Manella and Wilson Sonsini both used to have that type of practice group but I don't know of any in Texas, for instance, that do that at all.

Ropes has an excellent IP practice and just opened up a Tokyo office to better serve its Japanese clients. The quality of life is great for BigLaw (both Fish & Neave and Ropes have been known for this), as is the quality of work and mentoring. You don't need a tech background, though it always helps.
Krikland is a known sweatshop.

2:20-MoFi is bleeding partners, associates, and business. Be very careful.

2:43: is this recent news, or is this from a few years back? I heard things were really bad back then, but got better from there.

2:47 - This is recent.

Anybody know how easy it is to lateral to Knobbe? Is it true that all laterals, regardless of seniority when coming in, have to wait 5+ years (same track as people who start with the firm straight from law school) to become partner?

2:47-happening right now even as I type this

Word on the street is that Kirkland LA IP associates are flooding the LA market with their resumes. Anybody know why? Is it because Kirkland is a sweatshop or is something bad going down there?

Where are the hottest areas (geographic) for IP work?

3:02 - uh, California, by a pretty large margin.

Lots of patent litigation work in Boston -- e.g. Wilmer Hale, Foley Hoag, Ropes (which gobbled up Fish & Neave -- IP boutique -- a couple of years back).

Lots of non-boutique firms have people on patent litigation without science background. It's really no different from being on a highly technical products or enviro case -- you just gotta learn the science involved in the particular case.

Lots of big firms segregate the "prosecutors" from the "litigators" pretty completely, so if you want to do both you may have trouble at the big firms.

3:02 - Specifically, Silicon Valley/Palo Alto/Menlo Park for 'hard' IP, where, you know, most of the tech companies are.

Fish & Neave folks have less billables pressure now post-merger, which says a lot about Ropes.

I know MoFo has a specific IP licensing group, which many would consider 'transactional' but is very different from M&A.

BBHomey--

hook a bro up with an email contact there

3:18 - not just norcal. there is a good amount of biotech and pharma work in socal, particularly SD. as a general matter it seems there is tons of electrical/computer tech up north, and more biotech/pharma down south.

3:18 - also, you realize silicon valley is a region, right? a region encompassing PA and MP. it's not a city itself.

1:34

Compensation policies.

uh, what about the rest of the US/EARTH for IP work? Cal isn't the only place for IP work. Where else?

uh, what about the rest of the US/EARTH for IP work? Cal isn't the only place for IP work. Where else?

what exactly is the quality of life like at kirkland, especially the ny office?

3:32 - you can pretty much do IP work in any decent legal market. There's plenty in CA, TX, Chicago, DC, NY, Atlanta, etc. Most GP firms do it, and you can find IP boutiques in most or all of those markets as well. CA is just probably the biggest.

3:34

Non-existant.

3:39

Is it really that bad? What about relative to the general litigation groups of nyc-based firms?

2:20 - Loeb & Loeb markets and sells themselves as an IP firm, but the reality is they are not. They have mediocre litigation cases at best. In LA they do have a small and reptuable transcational entertainment practice (mostly talent work and film finance, NOT IP). I went there to do IP and left pretty quickly thereafter when I discovered it was a sham. Comp is well below market as well (major compression between class years and tiny bonuses). I'd look somewhere else if I were you.

I've also heard that kirkland is a pretty nasty sweatshop. That being said, it has a great rep for patent litigation (one of a handful of firms that makes Chambers band 1 nationally, and also in several individual markets) and their bonuses are consistently higher than their peers, so at least you might be getting paid for the extra work you are putting in.

also, i highly doubt that it is more of a sweatshop than any other top NYC firms. but in a place like LA i think it's safe to bet that kirkland associates are, on average, working more than latham, gibson, irell, etc. associates.

Hey, how is Alston & Bird's IP practice, specifically its Charlotte office? Also, how's the quality of life in general for A+B?

A&B has a good IP practice. they do a pretty good amount of both pros and lit, although if you want to do prosecution in a certain subject matter you better make sure they have enough work to go around in your particular area. i think they have electrical, some mechanical, and some business methods, but not much else.

as for QOL, not good. you will work longer hours in the IP group at A&B than you will in almost any other group of any other firm in the south. they do pay on an uncompressed 160K scale though (as do pretty much all ip shops in the south).

Who are the best atlanta firms for IP work?

Who are the best atlanta firms for IP work?

3:45(1): I figured as much; I just know of a few people who just lateralled there, so I guess they must be recruiting aggressively. Thanks for all the info.

This is a shot in the dark, but does anyone have any info on the MoFi DC office?

actually for ny kirkland is quiet the opposite of a sweatshop...

4:09 - imo fish and finnegan are tops if you can tolerate an office with less than 50 attorneys. a&b, k&s, kilstock, and needle & rosenberg would probably be second choices to fish or finnegan for me.

mofo blows!

mofo blows!

4:12 or others,

do these atl firms take laterals, if so what tech area is most desired in atl and how many years of experience? thx

4:15 - i know a&b takes laterals, and i'm 99% sure all the others do too. if you want to do litigation, i think any tech area is fine (EE probably preferred, but only marginally). if you want to do prosecution, EE/compsci strongly preferred probably. as for years of experience, i dont think that matters at all... what matters is they have an opening and you have the educational background (i.e., tech degree and j.d. that meets their minimumr equirements).

McDermott in Chicago is desperate for IP, and I can see why. I remember one interview in the IP group with a semi-insane lady who couldn't remember where she was from one moment to the next. Worst of all, it turned out she was the head of the Chicago IP group. I'm assuming the rest of the offices were just as bad.

Can anyone confirm that Kirkland's LA office kicked out a few equity partners earlier this year? I've heard this but can't find confirmation in the news.

4:09, i hear good things about thomas kayden too.

I know firms give clerkships from Fed courts and highest state courts, but what about the Fed Circuit?

Has anyone clerked there before? Worth it if I'm interested in patents?

what are some good places for non-techies wanting to do transactional IP?

K&E-LA is struggling, yes. Approx. 50 attorneys left in the last two years, including some equity partners and up-and-comers. Good associates are fleeing, too. The head of the IP group in LA (and chief rainmaker of the office) will likely be retiring soon, which may be part of the reason for the "downsizing."

K&E nevertheless has a very strong IP reputation, but it is solely in big patent litigation. We have little to no presence in soft IP (trademarks, copyrights, entertainment) and no patent procurement practice whatsoever. If you don't want to work long hours on 20-lawyer patent cases, don't come here.

I don't know about the McDermott Chicago office, but the head of the firm's IP practice is in the Silicon Valley office. The people there are cool.

7:40, if you are at the top of your class, then you can work any place that does non-patent IP. otherwise, i think its hard. the smaller ip firms want someone who can do it all in case work in trademarks or copyrights dries up they can always go to patent.

"I know firms give clerkships from Fed courts and highest state courts, but what about the Fed Circuit?

Has anyone clerked there before? Worth it if I'm interested in patents?"

Your naivete is cute, little 2L. Bonuses from the Fed. Cir. are bigger than bonuses from other circuits. IP practices pay HUGE for Fed Cir clerks.

Brinks struggling?

Let's see...one whiny summer claims several didn't get offers...but they also just brought on 18 new fall associates (a 50% increase over last year).

If some summers didn't get offers, take a closer look at the summers.

KE LA was supposed to come to my T-14 OCIs, but cancelled fairly last minute (after schedules were out)....KE SF/NYC/Chic. still showed up (interviews for each city were done separately).

Someone tell me about lateralling to Knobbe.

I have heard that it is very difficult to lateral to Knobbe. They are very suspicious of bigfirm culture.

i had heard this too, then i saw on their nalp form that they tend to have 5-6 laterals every year, which is more than firms like gibson & irell... which made me re-think the difficulty of lateraling to knobbe.

Foley & Lardner. Solid firm all around, but undoubtedly a top 5 place to be for IP work.

is that crazy partner at kenyon still there? you know, the one that made all those associates leave in droves?

Kenyon class of 2006 getting 170k starting 10/1.

Kenyon's summer associate offer for 2008 summer = $160,000 ($3076/week).

I would NOT work at Finnegan Henderson if you want to do anything other than mechanical patent prosecution - just read the posts at the end of the following link - they are pretty accurate (based on my own experiences there) http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/08/fall_recruiting_open_vault_86.php

Fish may be better - I don't know for sure though. Otherwise go to one of the GP firms (Finnegan has similar hours to lots of GP firms, so don't let the official line convince you otherwise).

gives $70k bonus for fed cir clerkships. yum yum

Anyone know anything about Frommer Lawrence and Haug?