Good thing he didn't go to law school. Brilliant people fuck up the curve.

Since it is now September, I guess I am starting my "fifth" year. Unlike some of my peers, I am beginning to enjoy practicing law more than I did as I get more responsibility.

That being said, it is a job. I dream still of doing other things, and I still don't know if I want to shoot for partnership.

I went to law school to save the Whales. Now I save the Benjamins.

But every December, I make a generous donation to Greenpeace (which my law firm matches).

Inside every lawyer is the wreck of a legal gossip blogger.

I'm no longer practicing, but I don't regret going to law school.

It was a good education, and I made some good friends. My legal training comes in handy for my current job.

I went to law school so I could buy my wife expensive front loading washers and dryers without first selling the old ones on a listserv.

I did not want to be at a disadvantage when someone threatened me with legal action and wanted to be able to protect those I care about when I need to. I am not and I do. I love being a lawyer

I don't like the sight of blood . . . this was the next best thing.

Why doesn't anyone profile all those people who had careers before law school and then decided to become lawyers?

Like the bitter journalists earning $40K a year who finally decided that, ten years out of college, they wanted a real income?

Like the former academics who didn't get tenure and were tired of ivory tower b.s.?

Like the Coney Island circus freaks tired of lying on beds of nails?

(O.k., I guess that last category is covered.)

Met my now husband in law school so I can't complain. :) There's a lot of frustration that comes with the law but there are rewarding moments. I agree with 11:12 about wanting to not be at a disadvantage and being able to protect those I care about.

I actually was a poet before coming to law school. Now between work and school, I just don't have the time. My creativity is being starved to death like Terri Shiavo.

First.

Why do Americans feel the need to have work they regard as "meaningful"?

I am not being facetious. In other countries, work is work -- a means to an end. It's what you do to earn money to provide for your family. You don't have to "like" it, that's why it is called "work."

Would it be acceptable to write a law school essay saying, "I want to law school so I can earn $160,000 before I'm 25"?

If not -- why not?

I was a struggling musician before going to law school, and spent 5 years in New York trying to make it. Finally I decided, before it was too late, I wanted a career and a skill set that I could develop professionally and move with geographically. Now, a few years out of law school, I still play "what if" with the music thing (almost every day), but I remind myself that nothing is promised in this life and that to find a job that allows you to take care of you and yours is doing better than most. Love it? Not by a long shot. Accept it? Trying to.

When the economy is strong, law schools are full of idiots who can’t get or hold a real job. When the economy is weak, lots of otherwise qualified college grads flood the law schools since they have nothing better to do.

11:26,

That's because in other countries work is not as all-engrossing as it is in the U.S. In Europe, with its more reasonable work week and more vacation time (and this is compared to regular U.S. working hours, not just BigLaw working hours), people can pursue what's meaningful to them outside of work.

When the economy is strong, law schools are full of idiots who can’t get or hold a real job. When the economy is weak, lots of otherwise qualified college grads flood the law schools since they have nothing better to do.

Let me articulate why most of us went to law schools - the $$$...

As Mort Zuckerman said, law is the opposite of sex, even when it's good, it's bad.

That being said, after leaving BigLaw for government work (and earning 25% of what I used to), I'm starting to enjoy being a lawyer again. There are still boring days, and I don't think I'll even like coming into an office in the morning, but there are days when I'm in the zone writing a kick-ass brief, or, even better, arguing a motion in court, and it's those days that make the practice of law rewarding for me. I could use a few more of 'em, but hey...

he probably felt ashamed of his affirmative action advantage.

Agree with 11:12 and 11:18: being a lawyer is pretty empowering when sh!t hits the fan in your outside life. I went to law school b/c it was a reliable way to make a comfortable living for my family out of what I'm good at - namely writing and rhetoric. Enough has gone wrong in my outside life over the last year that I'm very, very glad to have a lawyer's salary and grasp of the law to deal with it all.

Besides, my firm allows me enough leeway to split my practice between drafting LLC agreements, etc., and some meaningful and rewarding pro bono appellate work. I can't (and don't) complain.

Although I would support NY to $190k.

Law school was fun--I truly loved it--, I was a struggling artist looking to make money, but I regret it every single day, and plan to leave this world behind asap. I've been at it for five years, and have hated every single moment.

"he probably felt ashamed of his affirmative action advantage."

Affirmative action? Riiiiiight. That's how he graduated summa from Harvard and aced the LSAT. You must be that white guy who didn't have the grades for a good school who copes with his lack of achievement by blaming minorities for all his shortcomings.

The only difference between my slaving away learning a piano concerto and pouring over West Law key numbers is that, with the latter, I at least am in a room with natural light, whereas with the former, I was practicing in a basement fallout shelter at my conservatory. When I make partner, the Steinway is going in my penthouse office. Movin' on up.

I'm the bitter journalist. I was bittter so I went to law school. Now I'm bitter and in debt, but at least I'll have a job. #30

"That's how he graduated summa from Harvard and aced the LSAT."

How do you know he's not lying about those things?

Worst decision ever.

Practicing law in Denver is better than law school.

"How do you know he's not lying about those things?"

Let me get this straight. Your argument is an unsubstantiaed challenge to the facts that were presented in the story? Facts which were presumably checked by the journalist and/or the magazine before the article's publication. Hmm. I suppose you believe Colin Powell's stint as Secretary of State was because he was black and not because of his diplomatic experienc as a general and Chair of the Joint Chiefs.

"I agree with 11:12 about wanting to not be at a disadvantage and being able to protect those I care about."

What all this about "disadvantage" and "protect"?

I've never gone anywhere near a law school, and I worry about neither (in a legal context, that is).

People. Aside from what pop culture tells you, most people never get sued, and they never need the law to protect them. And should the unlikely happen, you can get a lawyer for a few bucks. You don't need one permanently ensconced in your house!

Good grief...

11:47 and 12:03:

I think 11:42 and 11:51 were joking . . . but then again, maybe both of you are joking. This is fun.

Lawyers are insecure and paranoid, and are generally terrible to work for and with. I wish I would have known that before going to law school.

I have a running joke I tell to acquaintances that are contemplating their next step as college graduation approaches: "Do what everyone else does whose not sure what to do: go to law school! That's what I did!"

I was primarily motivated by the money. I wanted to be a white collar professional, and Law was where the best money was for me. I don't care about saving anyone or anything. Law was merely something that enabled me to most easily achieve the goals I really cared about in life -- raising and providing for a family comfortably. I only saw Law as a means to that end.

Don't know if Lat already profiled this guy, but I saw him on The Colbert Report recently:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/05/31/lego.artist/index.html

best quote:

"New York corporate attorneys are known for working the long hours. I find myself working long hours now as well, but I'm doing something I love. ...

The worst day in the art studio is still better than the best day in the law firm."

12:03: Totally. If this dude was some dorky-looking white woman or man, nobody would dispute any of those stats.

I wanted to be a CPA. Looking back, law school was a great choice.

Quick, somebody wake up Loyola2L!!! He must not have gotten up yet (first Friday morning after the Fall semester began), or he would have been all OVER commenting on this post.

Give him a few hours; I'd expect him to chime in by 3 pm ET at the latest.

This thread is all about him!

11:26: Terrific question. I'm American and have always wondered the same thing. I think many people in this country have delusions of grandeur regarding their impact on the world, hence the pressure to find "meaningful" work.

I think it's a class thing, too. Where I grew up (blue-collar town), my peers didn't really care about finding "meaningful" work or, frankly, work they liked at all. To them, a job was a job. I'm a BIGLAW attorney and have the same attitude, which makes things a bit easier to handle.

12:05: have a parent die and leave behind a complicated estate with a bunch of litigious creditors. See if having a law degree (and reliable salary) doesn't make you feel more secure.

Asshole.

On the academic path, left and went to law school instead. No regrets whatsoever. Working lots of hours sucks, but the money is awesome.

Lat, this is the second time you've attributed that quote to Darrow. It shows up originally (or at least earlier), though, in Madame Bovary as "every lawyer carries inside him the debris of a poet" or "every notary carries about inside him the debris of a poet" or "not a lawyer but carries within him the débris of a poet."

I went to law school for one reason, to make sure I never had to depend upon a man or husband for income.

Upon graduating from high school, one of my best friend's parents got divorced. The mother had never worked, and at 55, she was screwed and had to start over at the bottom. Right then and there I promised myself that I would never be in that position.

Do I love being a lawyer? Not always. But, I do like the firm that I am with, and I love knowing that I am providing for myself and my family and that no one can take away my legal education from me.

I am happily married to a musician, so I think it helps me to be married to a non-lawyer, but that's just for me.

"Facts which were presumably checked by the journalist and/or the magazine before the article's publication"

rofl. yeah I'm sure they asked for his Harvard and LSAT transcript. My money's on him being an AA admit who is lying about those things.

I went to school with Josh and he is truly a brilliant person and musician. But he did have one unfair advantage that white folk are denied - we didn't get to have Dewey Redman for a dad. Quick, someone sue!

12:29: Yup, yup, and yup. Very well-put. Do you have children? You'll love the presumption that you're either not going back to work or working fewer hours, should that time come.

I was a struggling musician and was bored out of my mind before coming to work at biglaw.

12:29, I know you're just trolling to relieve your boredom and feel better by cutting down other people, but you do realize this is why Joshua Redman is laughing all the way to the bank at people like you, right? He's playing the saxophone all over the world while you are -- in vain -- sitting at a computer trying to exorcise your personal demons in public (classy move) by criticising the academic credentials of a musician. Get it? No one cares about that stuff, the credentials, the lawyerly race politics, when they listen to him play. That's why people on this thread envy him -- he's free of little people like you.

I love law school, and from what I can tell from my summer associate position, I'll love practicing law (litigation) as well. The profession requires a very satisfying mix of logical intellect, creativity, and socializing. Plus, you have a lot of power to help people.

i remember thinking the same thing as 12:41. what a difference two years can make...

11:26,
It's essentially a holdover from a Marxist, communist view of the world. Marx saw work as man's primary form of self-expression and -actualization in the world--prime not only in quantitative terms, but in qualitative terms as well. He viewed the capitalist system as one that transforms people into machines, humans into mere capital.

That said, we red-blooded Americans who instinctively and naturally know that communism in any and all forms is wrong, unnatural, and basically a load of horse dung, support capitalism and work only for gobs and gobs of money, meaning be damned. I'm not sure what commie, pinko, egg-headed, lily-livered "Americans" you've been hanging out with (what with their wanting "meaningful" work), but I'd avoid them as much as possible if I were you.

I went to law school to find a hard working man to marry, who would earn enough money for me to lunch and shop during the day and who would be to exhausted in the evening to expect much more than the occassional blow-job.

I couldn't be happier (and, he's paying my loans!).

12:54 - are you not at all concerned that one day he will trade you in for a newer model?

And, wouldn't working in a law firm be easier than law school and the loans?

So did anyone actually read the linked stories? I think the comic from the Observer story provided the best summary of law firm life I've ever heard: "The complete lack of control that you have over your own schedule is very frustrating.… You mostly serve the purpose of being a warm body to do things that other people simply don’t want to do. You’re overpaid for your skills and underpaid for the psychological trauma.”

That being said, I worked for 6 years before law school in various jobs (academic, financial services, etc.). With the recent salary increases, law school provides liberal arts majors like me with a pretty quick path to a great salary and (despite lawyer jokes) a very respectable profession.

I do encourage people who say they're going to law school to wait it out a few years after college. In my 20's, I wasn't rich or anything, but I had a great time going out 5+ nights a week. I now see 24 year olds stressed out every day, often bearly getting enough sleep to keep going. Taking some years off gives you great perspective both for dealing with law school and with law firm life. Do I love my job? Heck no, but I'd argue that neither do 90% of people (probably 98% if you count in the rest of the world). Sports and entertainment stars aside, when you have to do something every day, it's a job, no how much you like doing it. Of course there are better or worse jobs, and there might be one out there I'd prefer, but I don't have a passion for investing or litigating or making cookies, etc. that people who love their job always talk about. I'm an amateur musician, and would do that for a living if I had the talent, but then again, listening to stories of musicians I respect go off on playing the wedding band circuit or trying to teach kids who don't practice doesn't sound so appealing, especially considering the pay cut I'd have to take.

Wow, that was cathartic. Sorry to have wasted everyone's time!

12:59: Went to law school at 30 and agree (though I wish I'd gone at 27 or 28 - just to get more in my 401K/savings). Nothing like a string of shitty jobs to make you appreciate that BIGLAW gig.

I went to law school because I wanted an interesting job that was less competitive than editing/writing, less work than owning my own business, and better paid than trying to make a career out of my hobbies. (I got the last one right, at least.) I also liked the very structured career-placement procedure, which is probably a variation on "didn't know what to do with myself post-college."

BUT, despite my poor reasons, I stumbled into a field I love at a Biglaw firm where I am pretty happy. I'm grateful for that.

If it's 16 years later, he didn't score a 180: they didn't rescale the tests until 1992.

"If it's 16 years later, he didn't score a 180: they didn't rescale the tests until 1992. "

OWNED

Ted

I noticed that too. I applied to law school 16 years ago, and at that time, a perfect score on the LSAT would have been a 48. If he's 38 now, he likely gradulated Harvard in 91, when he was 22. So he applied to Yale law in the fall of 1990. If he took the LSAT in 90 (or 89 or 91), it was a 48 scale.

Maybe he just told the reporter he got a perfect score and the reporter added 180--stuff like that happens a lot.

11:23: brilliant

12:05: good luck getting a lawyer for a few bucks. I sure as hell couldn't afford me, and I'm guessing you couldn't either. 12:22 is dead on: having one or two lawyers in the household can avoid and/or mitigate a whole lot of crap that comes down the pipe in life, and said crap, while varying in degree, is virtually inevitable.

i'm in law because i have nothing better to do, and there's nothing i want to do but be a trust baby.

any rich folk adopting/looking to be married? i have no shame.

Redman is a bad ass musician. Big fan.

I guessing we probably have alot of Jimmy Buffett fans or silent Wu-Tang fans (see Michael Bolton in Office Space) in here, but if you like funky jazz, pick up Freedom in the Groove or Elastic

This is his bio from Allmusicguide.com:

Every few years it seems as if the jazz media go out of their way to hype one young artist, overpraising him to such an extent that it is easy to tear him down when the next season arrives. In the early '90s, Joshua Redman briefly became a media darling, but in his case he largely deserved the attention. A talented bop-based tenorman, Redman (who will probably never be an innovator) is a throwback to the styles of Red Holloway and Gene Ammons, but also has an inquisitive spirit and can play intriguing music when inspired.

The son of the great tenor saxophonist Dewey Redman, Joshua graduated from Harvard and (after debating about whether to become a doctor) he seemed headed toward studying law at Yale. However, Redman came in first place at the 1991 Thelonious Monk competition, landed a recording contract with Warner Bros., and was soon on the cover of most jazz magazines.

Law school is the Great American Default Option - no question.

I am a 2003 grad and my understanding is that my class was at the very beginning of a huge increase in applications that coincided with a downturn in the economy. I don't have stats but I know there are many many more applications today than there were 10 years ago, enrollment has increased, and the number of law schools has even increased. The net effect is that there are so many people who started law school from 2002-2007 that didnt belong there.

I graduated from college in the late 90's and at that time, there were tons of good paying job opportunities in finance and consulting especially, and they were all over campus recruiting. I think that all dried up after 2001, and you got alot more "fallback" law school applicants, and thus more people that didn't belong there.

I was a musician in college, and spent most of my time doing that, but kept up with classes enough to get decent grades to get into a Tier 1 law school and now Biglaw.

But, I'd drop everything to get the band back together if I knew I could make, say, $50K a year doing it.

I don't go to law school and in fact am in finance but I read above the law because i find it very interesting. I think you guys need to look at Redman a different way. The article is idolizing this guy who got a perfect score and graduated the top of his Harvard class but decided to pursue his dream (music instead). HOWEVER, the road less taken, which was music, still had ENORMOUS potential. He won the Monk competition, his dad is very famous, his networks were probably close to unlimited, and he already had a record deal with Warner. I mean, come on, it's not like he was a struggling musician who put everything on the line to pursue his dream. He recognized how much potential he had playing music and decided to take that route. It's not as noble as everyone is making it out to be.

I went to law school because I don't respect authori-tay and I wanted to stick it to the man, or at least try. So far, so good! I admit I don't really like spending all this time sitting in front of a computer, though.

And Joshua Redman is a babe! Finally, a true hottie graces ATL.

I love the sight of blood. Which is why I went to law school.

After 9/11 I wanted to catch bad guys. My wife did not want me carrying a gun so I went to law school to be a prosecutor.

All of you who went to law school for no apparent reason and are still there, get out! There are a whole bunch of people who want you slot and will actually do something with their J.D.

After 9/11 I wanted to catch bad guys. My wife did not want me carrying a gun so I went to law school to be a prosecutor.

All of you who went to law school for no apparent reason and are still there, get out! There are a whole bunch of people who want your slot and will actually do something with their J.D.

fuck them. if they cant get in past bored people with nothing better to do, they dont deserve it.

I was almost the bitter journalist. The law saved me. I would rather be making 160K in Chicago working less-perfect-hours than working in Kansas making 20K and working a totally crappy night shift.

11:26 and 12:18 -- I'm with you. I don't get the people who gripe and moan about how their work isn't interesting, the hours are long, or that they don't get to do enough meaningful work. (Here's a hint: You aren't being paid six figures to do all pro bono all the time.) I don't see myself as any better than the many, many people in this country who have to *work* to earn a living (and that means not always liking what you are doing, but making the best of it anyway).

BigLaw gives me the chance to pay off my six figures of student loans and will give me the chance to save for a home and a family. I'm very thankful to be able to do so. (Once I am debt free, I may move to another lower-paid sector, but there's no question that it was the future opportunity of a BigLaw salary which allowed me to finance my education in the first place.)

Concur with 2:21. Redman is a bona fide hottie (not just good-looking-for-a-lawyer). Wow.

I went to law school after several years of working in publishing, in part because I was tired of not being able to pay my bills, but also because I thought I would actually like it. I liked law school, but continue to be surprised by how completely uninteresting and unpleasant and unfulfilling Biglaw is. Having worked in other corporate environments, law really is worse in every way. I'm saving my pennies and getting the hell out as soon as I can comfortably afford to do so.

That said, I don't regret getting a law degree, which I think is useful to have even for those of us who can't wait to stop using it to practice law.

Another Affirmative Action candidate that could not cut it at Yale, and so had to quit!

Shudder...I sort of agree/empathize with almost ALL of you (which is admittedly odd, given the diversity and outright internal inconsistency in the posts)...well, except for the Learned Disciple--no offense, that just wasn't my motivation at all...and the random black guys because I think the first comment about affirmative action was quite clearly intended to be a sardonic attack on the theory that black people need or only get ahead due to affirmative action to get ahead and quite frankly, I think that poster made a better point in favor of your position than you did...but it winged right by ya and up on the soap box you climbed.

people say other lawyers are the problem. I disagree. It's the clients. They don't treat us as human beings. Do you think the CEO screams at his doctor if the doc gives him bad news? I work in-house. We were doing a big IT project and the execs were chatting with the outside software consultants . . . "well, get some sun this weekend and you can get back at it on Monday." A while before we lawyers were working on a transaction. To us it was more like "don't fuc%ing come out until it's done. And fuc% you for how much this is costing."
BTW, the software consultants were charging biglaw like rates. And there were ten or fifteen of them and only three or four outside lawyers. Why does our profession let people walk on us?

I went to law school because I was interested in the role of legal reform in emerging markets. (I've since decided that the role of legal reform is actually much less important than people gave it credit for in the late 1990s, but that's an aside.)

I enjoyed law school (although not being on law review) from an academic perspective, but I suspect I would have enjoyed doing an academic degree in economics even more. My favorite part of law school was definitely the weekly law and economics seminars, and my biggest regret is that I didn't properly discover these until I was a 2L.

Also, for various reasons, I didn't have to go into too much debt to finance my legal education; had I been saddled with $100K in loans post-law school, I'd been much more likely to have been negative on the experience.

As for the actual practice of law, I hated every minute of it, and I've found that the law degree is far less portable into other lines of work than people often think. (Yes, I realize that there are exceptions to this general rule.) I've also since realized that folks who work in international development are actually functioning much more like consultants than lawyers.

What is most galling about being a lawyer is the realization that essentially *other* people are making the big strategic decisions, and you're merely documenting them. You're always the helper, not the doer. (And as a lawyer, you're making less money than your clients, to boot. ) That, to my mind, casts severe doubt on the notion that lawyers are actually crusaders for social good or what not. The folks who actually go out and change things -- whether that means starting companies or providing policy advice or whatever -- are usually not lawyers. Practicing lawyers are the most boring set of people I've ever met, and they make the poorest leaders because they're virtually incapable of innovation. Reliance on precedent-based thinking means that you inevitably encounter the mindset that "if it's new, it must be bad." And quite frankly, the world will revolve around its axis even if you've misplaced a common on page 47.

I'm not one to resign myself to a profession I dislike, however. I'm starting a top MBA program next year, and I'm very confident it will lead me down one of a couple of career paths that I'm looking at and would enjoy.

To any readers out there who are interested in going to law school for reasons similar to mine, my advice would be to think seriously about how a law degree will help you, and to make sure you have a sense of what the practice of *law* (which is what most law graduates do), entails. At the very least, get a joint JD/MBA, JD/MPA, or JD/PhD in economics.

Redman sounds like a very impressive person. The thing that jumped out at me from the article excerpt was the journalist's apparent impression that a judge could "live lavishly" in New York City, which of course is laughable unless he or she has an independent source of wealth.

12:05

Yeah, most people don't get sued. But people get legally screwed all the time. Common examples: a hospital stay results in erroneous bills and potentially collections actions for said erroneous bills, a dishonest mechanic tries to make you pay for unauthorized work and threatens a "mechanic's lien", a leasing agent refuses to return your security deposit for unauthorized reasons, etc. In all of these cases, knowing your rights under the law and having the power of being able to say "I'm an attorney" to give credibility to your stance is helpful.