Loyola 2L Hits the Big Time (Even If Not the Big Law)
On the front page of today’s Wall Street Journal, there’s an excellent article, by Amir Efrati, about the not-so-hot job prospects for non-top-tier law school graduates. Here’s the lede, which nicely summarizes the situation:
A law degree isn’t necessarily a license to print money these days.For graduates of elite law schools, prospects have never been better. Big law firms this year boosted their starting salaries to as high as $160,000. But the majority of law-school graduates are suffering from a supply-and-demand imbalance that’s suppressing pay and job growth. The result: Graduates who don’t score at the top of their class are struggling to find well-paying jobs to make payments on law-school debts that can exceed $100,000. Some are taking temporary contract work, reviewing documents for as little as $20 an hour, without benefits. And many are blaming their law schools for failing to warn them about the dark side of the job market.
It’s a most worthwhile piece (although somewhat reminiscent of this article, by Leigh Jones for the National Law Journal). Here’s our favorite part:
Some un- or underemployed grads are seeking consolation online, where blogs and discussion boards have created venues for shared commiseration that didn’t exist before. An anonymous writer called Loyola 2L, purportedly a student at Loyola Law School, who claims the school wasn’t straight about employment prospects, has been beating a drum of discontent around the Web in the past year that’s sparked thousands of responses, and a fan base. (“2L” stands for second-year law student.) Some thank “L2L” for articulating their plight; others claim L2L should complain less and work more.Loyola’s Dean Burcham says he wishes he knew who the student was so he could help the person. “It’s expensive to go to law school, and there are times when you second-guess yourself as a student,” he says.
One tipster quips: “Loyola Dean David Burcham wants to find and help Loyola 2L. How? By refunding his tuition?”
So, will the real Loyola 2L please stand up — and email us? We’d love to discuss potential opportunities with you. Thanks.
Hard Case: Job Market Wanes for U.S. Lawyers [Wall Street Journal]
The Dark Side of the Legal Job Market [WSJ Law Blog]
Earlier: It’s Hard Out Here for Non-Top-Tier Law School Graduates
(213) Comments
Comments
Stupid is as stupid does.
Don't go to TTT schools.
I am Loyala 2L!
No I am!
"Loyola's Dean Burcham says he wishes he knew who the student was so he could help the person."
LOL. Actually, the dean wants to know who L2L is so he can beat the crap out of the whiny little bitch.
No, it is I!
Loyola 2L is obviously a figment of the imagination.
I am Spartacus, er, I mean L2L.
Mr. Loyola 2L and if it is Ms. I am sorry is not for the real. He is conglomerate of the many different people.
I am for the real however.
Thank you.
L2L is Tyler Durden
L2L is made of PEOPLE.
Loyola 2L is in a valley in Colorado right now. He is gathering all the TTT law students together, waiting for the day when the inefficient system of overpaid but well-qualified top-tier lawyers collapses under its own weight.
Enjoy the wait, L2L.
eh. good for those of us who worked hard and did well, and didn't go to a ttt.
i'm applying to law school this fall - i've got a 168 and a 3.5 from middlebury - will that be enough to get me into a top 20 school and have decent job prospects after graduation? thanks.
i heard L2L is amelia earhart
If the Loyola Dean wanted to be honest he could release the stats on what his graduates make the first three years out of law school.
The schools need to be more realistic about what the vast majority of lawyers do for work and what they make. The vast majority of lawyers work for very small law firms and still manage to make what by most measures is a very good living. There are some schools out there which should be closed down, but most put out people who will go on to be good lawyers. But from what the schools show everyone is working for 100+ atty firms and working on amazing corporate deals. And the schools do nothing to help the majority of students get jobs or develop a career.
Shame on the schools for not showing reality and more shame on the students for being willfully blind.
And the biggest shame of all on the huge corporations which blindingly pay huge amounts of money so 17 young associates making huge amounts of money can churn through the same documents.
(recopied from WSJ blog)
A couple of points re: the article.
One thing which really irks me is that I’m top 25%. People accuse me of not working hard, but I busted and continue to bust my ass. I wouldn’t feel so ripped off if I didn’t put so much effort into this. I believed in this school. Thinking my hard work would pay off, I was a huge cheerleader for this place until I found out that it was all just a scam. Shame on these schools for making a buck by destroying the hope and optimism of 22 year olds. We’re just starting out in life, and you essentially cut my future out from under me before it even started. In 11 months I’m going to start a miserable life. One where I make $50,000/year and pay half my salary to student loan payments. I no longer have the freedom I enjoyed upon graduation. I’m now an indentured servant.
I also think the Dean has a lot of nerve offering to help me. There are hundreds of students just like me in this graduating class. If he wanted to help he would reach out to all of us, not just me. If he wanted to help he wouldn’t have increased tuition to $36,000 this past year. If he wanted to help he would create an OCI program and career services office which provides everyone jobs, and not just the top 10%. If he wanted to help he wouldn’t have increased the class size to an all time high, despite the fact that only 62% of last year’s class was employed on graduation! If he wanted to help he would publish accurate employment information, so future students know what they’re getting into. If the schools’ Deans are sincere, there is a lot they can do to fix the problem.
Comment by Loyola 2L - September 24, 2007 at 12:54 am
Gotta love the trenchant honesty of the reporter: "David Burcham, dean of Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, considered second-tier, says ..."
CSM, you are pretty much a shoe-in at the lower end of top 20, and have a decent shot at doing even better. Don't worry.
From the WSJ article:
Some new lawyers try to hang their own shingle. Matthew Fox Curl graduated in 2004 from second-tier University of Houston in the bottom quarter of his class. After months of job hunting, he took his first job working for a sole practitioner focused on personal injury in the Houston area and made $32,000 in his first year. He quickly found that tort-reform legislation has been "brutal" to Texas plaintiffs' lawyers and last year left the firm to open up his own criminal-defense private practice.
He's making less money than at his last job and has thought about moving back to his parents' house. "I didn't think three years out I'd be uninsured, thinking it's a great day when a crackhead brings me $500."
------------------------------------
Yikes.
CSM paralegal: Maybe, maybe not. Apply and see what happens. If you don't get into a top school, i would recommend not going. If you do go, understand that if you're not in the top 10-20 percent (depending on where you go) it will suck when it comes time to find work. Also, don't buy into the big firm glam. It's really not that sweet. There are other ways to make money. Only do law if you think you actually find it interesting.
11:27,
How much work does he have to do for that $500 worth of crackhead money?
11:28 - the real question is, what kind of work?
What? Is it just me, or is this article three years late? It seems big firms are dipping deeper into classes and law school rankings for the last season or so due to the inability of law schools to keep up with demand. Yet the author seems to suggest that law schools are churning out lawyers at ever-increasing rates (while admitting this may be the end of their "golden age.")
Wasn't the article schizophrenic-sounding?
"I didn't think three years out I'd be uninsured, thinking it's a great day when a crackhead brings me $500."
Best quote ever. Houston should use that quote on its recruiting brochure.
CSM:
Forget 11:27's advice.
You will likely be admitted to a top-tier school but if that school is not in the top 20, you better be prepared to work as hard as you can to ensure you are near the top of your class after your first year. If you succeed in doing that, you will be competitive for a big firm job and should be fine after law school. And believe me, a big firm is the ONLY way to make money early after graduation. Anyone who says otherwise probably failed to land such a job.
If you end up at a 2nd tier school (say, for example, because one offers you a ton of money to attend) understand that you will have to be at the very top of your class to secure a big firm job. That’s just the way it is. If you are a lazy student, forget about law school and think about an MBA.
For $500 that guy will do more good for that crackhead then any corporation will get out of you for $500.
The point of going to lawschool should be to become a good lawyer. If you do not know a lawyer, have no idea what a small firm law practice is like or have never worked for a lawfirm then it is just plain stupid for you to go.
But overall working as a lawyer, and representing real living, breathing people, is far better than working as a junior v.p. for some bank staring at spreadsheets all day. And you probably make almost as much money.
Thank you for the offer Lat, and I enjoy your blog, but I'm not outing myself. I'm sure you can understand.
I went to law school because I wanted to be a lawyer, not because I wanted to be rich. I work in the public sector and don’t make very much money but am doing exactly what I wanted to do with my life. Anyone who goes to law school because they want to make a lot of money is an idiot. I've been out of my (top) law school long enough to know that even at a top school where you’ll be able to get that $160K job, very few people stay in those jobs long enough to really make bank or, honestly, to pay off their loans without difficulty.
Hey 11:33, sign you name with whatever lawschool your are dean of. Get to work on your ABA standards and stop wasting time reading this blog.
"It seems big firms are dipping deeper into classes and law school rankings for the last season or so due to the inability of law schools to keep up with demand."
It may seem that way, but it's not so, at least not at tier 2 schools.
I smell a class action lawsuit for tuition refunds. Law schools misled prospective students into believing they would make six-figure salaries to start and charged high tuitions accordingly. They even provided nice little pie charts, etc. to prospective students showing this. They also took on as many students as they could reasonable support (or more) and flooded the market with graduates, making their already inaccurate reps more inaccurate (while profiting all along).
C'mon, people. If there are so many lawyers out there unable to find employment, they should have time to make this case. Try consumer protection and antitrust allegations for starters. And remember, we are ALL part of the class as we have ALL been overcharged and were ALL misled in the same way. Some just fared better than others--for now--in this scheme.
CSM: I had similar stats (and was also a former paralegal) and I got into Michigan.
CSM - You will definitely get into a T20. I can't see Vandy turning you down and Texas/USC should take you as well.
What I find odd is that, although commentators have a somewhat accurate picture of legal salaries, they consistently underestimate debt. Usually it's phrased like this article---"debts that can exceed $100,000." As an '06 graduate from a private law school, I think the $100,000-as-a-high-end estimate is pretty dated. A more honest estimate might be "debts that average $150,000" or "debts that can exceed $175,000." I think that would cover most of the people I know who took full loans and now labor under $1000-1500/month repayment plans. $100,000? I wish.
The moral of the story really should be: don't go into a lot of debt if you don't get into the top tier. Nothing wrong with going to an in-state school and becoming a country lawyer or public servant for $50k a year, if that's your passion. Just don't borrow $100k to make it happen.
11:44 - things done changed. thats not getting anyone into Michigan any more (except for URMs but they'd get into Columbia with those numbers). the higher score policy has increased everyone's medians by a point this year.
How about researching the job market BEFORE you shell out $100K for a TTT degree?
CSM, not only are you a shoe-in for BU (#20), you could also probably get some good cizzash; and if you are top 1/3rd there, you are biglaw qualified.
In a way the any law student who willingly takes on that much debt is in the same boat as the people who overpaid for a house by borrowing beyond their means. And why is it so expensive. Medical schools have to buy lab equipment and cadavers. What costs so much to run a lawschool? Turn on the lights and get some professers in to ask questions.
Doesn't the lawschool dean have some obligation to counsel students who pile up that much debt. Even at 160K, which no one is going to make, sorry guys, it is going to take years to pay off.
It is good for ATL to make these posts once in awhile in order to give a realistic impression of the practice of law.
The top 1/3 of BU works for biglaw? Really, are you perhaps fudging that a little bit? How are you defining biglaw?
11:51, How is "noone" going to make $160k? Notwithstanding the main point of this ostensibly accurate article, there are thousands of first-year associates in this country right now. How much do you think they are making?
It's like buying a car. If you're in a position to buy a Ferrari, you don't haggle -- you just sign and drive off into the sunset. If you're buying a Honda, you're an idiot to pay full sticker.
$40M/yr for a T14 is a good investment. But $36M for a Tier 2 is D-U-M. Go to whomever throws the most money at you.
L2L, how big a scholarship would you have had at Cooley?
As an 08 grad of a lower T1 school, I can attest that there aren't guaranteed 160K jobs out there. Despite the fact that my school ranked well into the top40, we had ZERO firms that paid 160K this year interview at OCI. That's right ZERO. I admittedly didn't work very hard and should graduate in the top 25%. Job wise, that effectively means I had 0 opportunities without clawing for them. I have a job though where, after about 2 years of decent performance, I will end up making as much as the third years who got the top-market jobs in my area. It will have cost me about 50k in the interim, but then again, I knew all this coming into the school, got a full tuition scholarship, and only have about 40-50k in loans from all my degrees combined. All in all, if I had gone T1 and left after less than five years, I would have most likely been in a worse financial proposition after also having wasted several of the best years of my life. The key is to just get out and hustle.
I know this is going to sound cynical, but it isn't. I honestly want to know.
Question to Loyola 2L RE: employment rates == Do you have anything that documents the deviation between Loyola's published employment rate and what you assert?
11:45, good point. I have over 180K including some debt from undergrad, bar loan, another graduate degree, credit card, etc. Maybe $100K from law school alone is accurate, but if you're borrowing for law school you probably have had to borrow in the past too.
11:51, most new doctors have debt that makes $150K for law school look like chump change. Also, unlike home buyers, lawyers can't discharge their debt in bankruptcy or sell their degree to recoup their losses.
11:52 - The number was pulled out of my ace, as you suspect, but that's the general sense I get. Check out the websites for Ropes or Goodwin.
What pisses me off about L2L and all the other whiners is that they were obviously too lazy to do the research before they decided to go to law school. Even if the schools didn't have great data, they could do a cursory review of the partners and associates at the top law firms in the country and see how many came from the law school they were considering. If the number could be counted on one hand, it's probably a sign that the school isn't doing a great job placing its graduates.
Also, taking out $100k+ in loans is a bit short-sighted.
We're missing the point. The problem is the rankings themselves. Everyone knows that they don't mean much other than a general ball park, but still we all treat them with such importance.
Also, I've been told numerous times by people from top 10 law schools and federal judges that if you want to learn to be a lawyer, don't go to the top 10. But, seeing as how I'm 3L at a 2d tier, they could be just lying to my face.
11:53, how many first year associates are making 160? How many lawfirms are paying 160 multiplied by the amount of law students they hire, what is it?
And what do you think that is compared to the amount of first year lawyers out there. Didn't ATL have a chart on this not to long ago?
we are all L2L in the same way that we are all whokebe.
@ PI:
Excellent point re: Drs.
My father knows a guy who is just finishing up at a pretty good dental school. This guy estimates that between UG, dental school, and the cost of establishing a practice (BigDental doesn't do OCI), he will be a cool mil in the hole before he sees his first patient.
There's a certain degree of grass-is-greener going on here. And 22-year-olds with unrealistic expectations.
Unrealistic indeed. Like I said, I just really don't get why people go to law school if they don't genuinely want to be lawyers. What a waste of your life.
I like how Loyola (the "tipster") is trying to bait L2L into outing himself, by promising a tuition refund.
I've been Loyola 2L.
I think the biggest problem is too many law students are direct out of undergrad with no real experiences or even classroom knowledge that would have given them the skills to know to do and actually do a real estimate of their chances and the costs and risks of failure.
11:54:
Top 40 doesn't cut it. Remember, Loyola is 51. Top 10 pretty much guarantees biglaw. Top "14" does not. Ask anyone in the bottom half of their class at UCLA, doing insurance defense work.
CSM: Very similar stats, got into Northwestern. granted that was five years ago.
What does TTT stand for?
TTT: third tier toilet.
this thread has been great, thank you.
so basically, if i can get into a T20, take out the loans to make it happen and then get ready to slave away in biglaw just long enough to pay them off before moving on to something more enjoyable... or attend the school that throws the most cash at me and which has some legitimacy (top 40, i don't really know - little help here) and skip the biglaw circus completely...
i ask because my goal is to work for the state department or DoJ. do they take grads from a top 40 school or am i going to have to take out killer debt to go to a T20 if i want a job like that?
thanks again.
CSM:
My friend got into Georgetown with a 166
CSM:
Go to the law school where you will incur the least amount of debt, and network your ass off...you should be fine.
12:21, you are off your rocker. You are talking about trading some degree of certainty away for a veritable lottery ticket.
These comments make it sould like if you go to a tier 2 school, you are dead in the water. That's not the case. I know a lot of people (not just top 10%) who went to tier 2 schools that are doing biglaw. (Not that biglaw is oh-so-prestigious.)
12:22
CSM wants a gov't job. Good luck paying off those law school debts on $50k.
CSM: I got into HLS with a 168 and a 3.9 and waitlisted at yale. But that was in 1998...
L2L is Spartacus. Or whatever.
Good luck identifying him.
I'll stick to the snails.
Showing my age - when did Middlebury start assigning grades?
CSM: I got into CLS with a 168 and a tug-job.
To everyone giving CSM advice based on 1990's admission: the standards have gone way up. Penn's median LSAT in 1997 was 165, now its 170.
CSM: you have at least a shot at Cornell and UCLA and a good chance at the rest of the t20.
Law school is a good gig if you go to a top school or a good regional school in a good market. Career placement at most schools is fairly transparent using the internet. It seems that if you go to a lower ranked school in a saturated market like LA and don't do real well, there shouldn't be many surprises.
The point about 100k in debt is a good one. I went to a Top 10 school took on just over 100k in debt--YEARS ago. Now I'm a senior associate at BigLaw, but still not in a position to get off this freaking treadmill.
In response to others--yes, it was a bad decision on my part to go to law school and take on 100k in debt. I did it because I was unsophisticated and had outdated knowledge and/or misleading advice. I have a family member in a small practice, but the situation of those lawyers who were about 30 years my senior was vastly different than 20-somethings at small firms. From everything I saw, law was a great "profession" with innumerable opportunities (with lawyers doing great things inside and outside of "the law"). No one ever talked about the effects of debt, but many talked about or reported on high BigLaw salaries. Plus, our culture is one where "higher education" is seen as an unqualified good and "investing in your education" is never a bad idea.
If I knew then what I know now . . . right?
In one way or another all of us not in top tier schools or without daddy giving us a job are just like l2l and law is for losers.
what do these kids expect? you goto a crappy law school and you'll get a job at Wachtell??? I've said it before and I will say it again - if you are going to 'law schools' like Loyola, you should not be becoming a lawyer...This may sound elitist, but there really should not be more than 50 law schools, and even that's pushing it...
12:37 - you must have poor financial management, current BIGLAW salaries make law school debt payable in under five years.
Ditto 12:37. Most folks I know are paying down their debts, and managing to put a good chunk away, w/o having to live in the poorhouse in the meanwhile.
err, that should be "Ditto 12:42."
/Preview is my friend.
If you actually network you can go to regional biglaw from a tier 2 school.
I'm top 35% at a high tier 2 state school and I've got a biglaw job lined up. Quit bitching and get you asses on the phone and call the people you want to work for until one of them gives your sorry ass a job or gets a restraining order.
I really don't get this. How could someone like L2L possibly be unaware that job prospects from any school outside the top 40 or so are so poor (and always have been so poor) as to make that education an irrational purchase? I went to law school because I really wanted to be a lawyer, yes, but at the same time I didn't even think about applying outside the top 10, and wouldn't have reapplied to lower-ranked schools if it hadn't worked out. It's a really stupid bet, and you're a fool if you were misled otherwise -- it seemed pretty damn obvious to everyone I went to school with (undergrad and law).
Here we go with the old I'll-fell-free-to-comment-on-your-debt-management-with-zero-knowledge-of-your-financial-situation free-for-all.
Lat,
Just curious, why don't the "usual rules" apply? At least one person has commented above speculating as to the identity of L2L.
CSM:
Here is some hard reality for you.
Unless you go to one of the absolute best schools in the nation (and do very well there), you can forget about getting hired by the DOJ or State Dept. immediately out of law school. The DOJ honors program for recent grads is particularly competitive.
So, in lieu of the “biglaw circus” what do you think you will do burnish your resume and prepare to land your dream government job? Let's examine your options:
(i) working at a small firm you will work nearly as hard as you will at a large firm, except you will earn a fraction of the pay and none of the prestige;
(ii) clerking can open some doors, but it is temporary and right out of school you're looking at $50k at best (and less if you clerk in a state court);
(iii) there are "lesser" government positions, sure, but none are not really likely to open any doors (because no one at the DOJ will care much about your experience at HUD), plus future employers will assume you have been indoctrinated into the lazy habits of typical government employees;
(iv) state prosecutor positions are fun and you will get you into court often, but you will earn no money (think $45k at best) and while you complete your three-year initial commitment, life will happen around you and before you know it you will find yourself a permanent resident of Suburban Town, USA with no shot at DOJ;
(v) finally, all other options are unacceptable (insofar as they will not get you near the DOJ or State or any other desirable job).
Remember this one guiding principle: It is a lot easier to go down than to go up, so you better start as high as you can. Like it or not, biglaw is considered the top (at least as far as private practice goes). Whether that is fair (or even true in fact) is not the point. Employers -- including those responsible for the best positions in DOJ and other government jobs -- see biglaw as a place where grads learn to work hard, fast, and carefully. In the eyes of those evaluators, everyone else is a tier below and must offer something special to get a second look.
Everyone applying for jobs at DOJ (and remember, 48k others will graduate with you) will have great credentials. No one at DOJ will give 2 shits about your resume as compared to the resume of an identically credentialed applicant who has spent 2 yrs at biglaw.
CSM-- DOJ jobs are competitive. They don't pay that well, and there are a lot of 2-5 year associates at big firms who are willing to take the pay-cut to get one of those jobs. They can also be political stepping-stone jobs, so you have the monied elite (who don't worry about debt) applying as well. Lots of post-clerkship applicants too. I know people from top 40 schools that have done it, but I'm sure it is easier from a higher ranking school.
Not sure about state department.
12:57, if you have a peculiar financial situation that prevents you from making the most of your biglaw salary, then you should perhaps abstain from generalizing on the biglaw dollar's value.
l2l is obviously multiple trolls
Joe--
That does sound elitist, and you are full of it. I went to a tier 2 school and landed a COA clerkship. There are many others like me. Do you really think we, and the other successful folks at lower-ranked schools (of which there are many), do not belong in the profession?
That should be:
---------------------------------------------
CSM:
Here is some hard reality for you.
Unless you go to one of the absolute best schools in the nation (and do very well there), you can forget about getting hired by the DOJ or State Dept. immediately out of law school. The DOJ honors program for recent grads is particularly competitive.
So, in lieu of the “biglaw circus” what do you think you will do to burnish your resume and prepare to land your dream government job? Let's examine your options:
(i) working at a small firm you will work nearly as hard as you will at a large firm, except you will earn a fraction of the pay and none of the prestige;
(ii) clerking can open some doors, but it is temporary and right out of school you're looking at $50k at best (and less if you clerk in a state court). Unless you clerk for the DC Circuit, forget going to DOJ right after a clerkship;
(iii) there are "lesser" government positions, sure, but none are likely to open any doors (because no one at the DOJ will care much about your experience at HUD), plus future employers will assume you have been indoctrinated into the lazy habits of typical government employees;
(iv) state prosecutor positions are fun and you will get you into court often, but you will earn no money (think $45k at best) and while you complete your three-year initial commitment, life will happen around you and before you know it you will find yourself a permanent resident of Suburban Town, USA with no shot at DOJ;
(v) finally, all other options are unacceptable (insofar as they will not get you near the DOJ or State or any other desirable job).
Remember this one guiding principle: It is a lot easier to go down than to go up, so you better start as high as you can. Like it or not, biglaw is considered the top (at least as far as private practice goes). Whether that is fair (or even true in fact) is not the point. Employers -- including those responsible for the best positions in DOJ and other government jobs -- see biglaw as a place where grads learn to work hard, fast, and carefully. In the eyes of those evaluators, everyone else is a tier below and must offer something special to get a second look.
Everyone with a realistic chance at a job at DOJ (and remember, 48k others will graduate with you) will have great credentials. You can count on that. No one at DOJ will give 2 shits about your resume as compared to the resume of an identically credentialed applicant who has spent 2 yrs at biglaw.
The phrase biglaw should be defined. Is it a firm that pays 160 to starting associates. Is that the cutoff.
And is there anyone else out there that would rather do insurance defense, talk to people, actually go to deposition and court and try cases and make a 50-75 rather than toil away with a bunch of tools who are looking to cut each others throats.
How many biglaw associates and even partners have ever tried a case? Is that what you want to do for the rest of your life? Is that what you studied so hard for?
If you want to make a lot of money go into investment banking. If you want to try cases and help people go to lawschool.
And the glut of lawschool grads hurts the small firm lawyers a lot more than the biglaw.
1:09-
Surely you know by now that most of the posters here think that if you don't begin your career at a V50, you are destined to run full-page ads in the Springfield Yellow Pages.
1:01- Tyler Durden is a movie character, dumas.
12:49, try not to make it so obvious that you went to #39 or #40. It should be more like T20 (since I went to . . .)
I want to be a lawyer, the only school that offers part time classes is GSU. I'm not saying I wasn't accepted elsewhere, but I have a full time job (six figures) and can't do the full time classes, also, I will have little or no loans when I graduate. But what you guys are saying is that I shouldn't even go, because it's a tier 2 school? Remember guys, If everyone's elite, then no one is.
1:10 is speaking facts. Pay attention students.
Old Guy,
You should go if you know some lawyers and how much they make and have a desire to do what they do.
You are not going to be able to make as much money as you are making now. It is not going to happen. But the work will be more interesting.
1:15,
I have done ID for the past two years. I have conducted numerous depositions and tried a few cases. That being said, I would rather toil away with a bunch of tools if it doubled my salary.
ID Sucks.
Old Guy (at 1:20), if you really are old and already making six figures then you wouldn't want to be a biglaw associate. It'd be a demotion (even if it was a modest pay increase). If you don't need the biglaw pay then you don't need a fancy law degree. Just understand that that stuff will be off limits to you- you can close local real estate deals or draft wills or work in local government.
rofl @ 1:01 thinking Tyler Durden was an attempt to out L2L.
"'And why is it so expensive. Medical schools have to buy lab equipment and cadavers. What costs so much to run a lawschool? Turn on the lights and get some professers in to ask questions."
Posted by: Anonymous | September 24, 2007 11:51 AM
Law schools are notorious cash cows for the rest of the university. At GW, Trachtenberg was using law school tuition to finance his plan for global domination (or at least his plan to buy up all the real estate in Foggy Bottom). Better than 70% of the law school tuition (or something like that) was being spent on non-lawschool related purchases. It got so bad that the faculty complained and got him to commit to spending at least 33% of the tuition on the law school. (My memory is hazy, but the numbers should be pretty close to these).
It was a definite bone of contention w/ both the students and the faculty.
Old Guy:
What?!? The only reason to attend law school when you already have a 6-figure job is to guarantee yourself a lot more money.
Unless you plan to blow up the curve in every class at GSU and finish at the top, AND you have ten years to burn toiling as a biglaw associate, you are unlikely to do too much better than you are already doing after attending law school.
It sounds like you are looking to earn a JD to please your ego more than anything else. That is a big mistake.
The best case scenario is ten years of hell for a chance to become a partner and earn a little more than you make now (think, 100k to 300k -- sorry, but partnership at a V50 firm is out of reach for a GSU grad, let's just be realistic).
The worst case scenario is you ruin your current situation beyond repar and, after law school, find yourself stuck earning less than you do now, working a job you hate, and paying off unneccesary debt (however small) you tok on for a vanity degree.
In your position, if you are not going to a top-20 school, you shouldn't bother.
1:04, your financial situation need not be that "peculiar" to make a modest biglaw salary insufficient to pay off loans plus "bank a bunch of money." We're not hedge fund managers here. If you have a kid and are thus paying for an extra bedroom (call that another $1200/month) plus other stuff for him/her, plus a nanny (call that $40k/year), then obviously you're not saving shit. But maybe since you're 23 years old you think having a kid is "peculiar." We do okay, but it's only because my wife and I *both* work biglaw. Still, it's not like anyone's rich.
12:40 - are you kidding? The elitist comments on this blog are becoming more and more hilarious.
CSM and others -
For the past two years here is a ranking of law schools reported by DOJ attorneys in order of number of attorneys -
GULC
HLS
GW
UVA
CLS
Michigan
YLS
If you want to work at DOJ, try and get in Gtown.
Re debt, Congress recently approved legislation to help with debt pending Presidential approval.
http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=37961&dcn=e_wfw Also some agencies do have programs to assist with law school debt but I hear the programs aren't great and budget constraints keep those programs from full funding.
Good luck.
I agree entirely with 12:40. There should be 50 law schools (or less) that get accreditation, and no bar exams (which are a good proxy for exactly nothing that a lawyer does). This would really just be an acknowledgment of what L2L would have known going into this thing if he/she wasn't such an idiot (which is why he/she couldn't do better than Loyola in the first place -- it's a vicious cycle).
today we are all Loyola2L's
I am graduating from a T2 school this May, and I am lucky enough to be in the top 5, so I didn’t have a problem finding a Biglaw job. But the administrators at my school were completely honest with all of us from the beginning about salary expectations, loans, and setting realistic goals for paying the loans back. They passed out a chart showing what most non-big firm positions pay in the Chicago area, down to the 40K per year salaries for starting state’s attorneys. (I have no idea if that is still the going rate). They also told us that probably only those in the top ten percent would get biglaw jobs, and to think long and hard about that before taking out loans. I am sure most people sat there self-assured that they would be the ones in the top ten, but it is sad to see people now who are 100K or more in debt, graduating in May, with no job prospects in sight. I am sure those people will find jobs eventually, but at least no one can say they weren’t warned.
Sorry, but I'll remain an HLS 6L, thanks.
Going back to the article, my favorite line was:
"Despite graduating near the top half of her class [at Chicago-Kent], she has been unable to find a job. . . ."
Yes, "despite" finishing in the bottom half of a second tier law school in a city with two top law schools, she found it tough to get a job. Go figure.
Advice to middle of the pack 2nd-tiers: Get to know as many people as you can. One lucky break can make your career.
A friend of mine from a 2nd teir law school managed to land a COA clerkship with a senior judge on the basis of a recommendation from a golf buddy (and life-long friend) who my friend met after a law school panel discussion.
From there, the judge helped my friend get into a big firm, in a big market, where my friend says he works some late nights but essentially does bullshit work for more than $150k per year.
And, if you're wondering how he has fared among the "better" students at the firm, he is about to start his THIRD year there.
So shake hands with people and get to know them. Be nice, pay attention to people and and never succumb to the urge to act like a know-it-all jackass (especially if you find yourself with a few good grades in your first year).
11:19 pwns with the subtle Ayn Rand reference.
1:47, that's hilarious. "Near the top half," that's like getting the silver medal in a race between two people. I love it.
"And, if you're wondering how he has fared among the "better" students at the firm, he is about to start his THIRD year there."
I completely fail to see the significance of this, or why "THIRD" is being emphasized. If it's like every other big law firm in the country, they don't fire 1st and 2nd year associates -- it's not like an I-Bank where they shave off half the class each year; the bloodletting comes at years 8 and 9.
2:00 -- at least 15 pecent of my Biglaw class (almost 100 associates) left for a different firm within 16 months.
(also, i suspect that by emphasizing how long his friend has worked at the firm, 1:55 is commenting on the (false) notion that 2nd tier lawyers simply can't cut it at big firms-- not that the friend has escaped being fired so far).
2:19, so what? They went to another firm. That doesn't mean they were less-qualified or worse than you or anyone else who stayed; it means they thought they'd prefer to be elsewhere, or they were less risk-averse.
Re the parenthetical, my whole point was that even staying at a firm for 3 years does not prove that you can "cut it" -- you could be failing miserably and you still wouldn't lose your job.
LOL at calling them "2nd tier lawyers" though.
I was looking to open my own office. It really doesn't matter what my grades are, I don't think I would fit in doing doc review at 44, so BigLaw wasn't my goal anyway. I can always stay at my present job, there is little risk in losing that. My current career is getting stale however, and I though maybe Law would be a good way to go. I now have some more details to look at before I make the plunge.
FOR ALL OF YOU WORRIED ABOUT JOBS:
1. GET A TAX LL.M. FROM NYU, GEORGETOWN OR FLORIDA!!! I can list about 40-50 large firms nationwide that will hire anyone with a pulse to work in employee benefits and tax. I can tell you that I work in an AM LAW Top 20 firm and we have people from 4th tier law schools that got an LM and got hired.
Just a thought.
I would rather shoot myself in the face than commence a career in "employee benefits and tax." It's like HR for geeks.
There is a little L2L in all of us...I guess you could say together all of us make up L2L.
Best damn student we ever had.
Grades and schools mean much less five years out. Top 10 grads drop like flies from biglaw in years 4, 5, 6. Cream rises. Take whatever job you can find (PI, Insurance defense) if you're a good lawyer (much different from being a good student or a good test taker), you'll make your way to the top...whether that's biglaw or partner in small/medium size firm at year 6. In the meantime, stop whining and start paving your own way.
Hawkeye, you might even say we killed L2L and we are eating him right now.
I was looking to open my own office. It really doesn't matter what my grades are, I don't think I would fit in doing doc review at 44, so BigLaw wasn't my goal anyway. I can always stay at my present job, there is little risk in losing that. My current career is getting stale however, and I though maybe Law would be a good way to go. I now have some more details to look at before I make the plunge.
Posted by: Old Guy | September 24, 2007 02:29 PM
================
Dear (Deluded) Old Guy:
Please send me your contact info so that in the future, I can hire you.
You see, I would much prefer to hire a 47 year-old, inexperienced lawyer who decided to go to law school out of boredom than a 47 year-old lawyer with 23 years of experience.
So would many others, I assure you.
No, if you build it, if you work hard you will do alright, but you will not be a partner at biglaw making the huge money without being on law review at one of the very top schools. I assume from your name that you are a lawschool dean.
Why not have a Law Student Bill of Rights which requires the Dean to issue a statement describing the classrank/salary of its graduates from the past five years as well as the CV's of its professors, as well as the percentage of tuition spent on non-law matters. What excuse would a Dean have for not signing that?
I think that the system of law school education is just fine the way we have it now. It is just like any other market out there. There is the "brand name" market like Harvard, Yale, etc...and then there is the "knock off" market Loyola, etc... For better or worse, our nation is a capitalist society in which we allocate risk based, in part, on consumer preference and market perception. The legal education system is no different. The reason top law school grads get better jobs is the same reason you buy Coke instead of Shasta at the grocery.
No rational person would feel bad for someone who bought a Kia with the expectation that they would get Mercedes luxury and performance. In the same way, when you enroll in Loyola, Cooley, or any other "knock off" school no one should feel bad for you that you got what was coming. Also, no matter how hard you try to convince me that you were "duped" into thinking that your job prospects would be as good coming out of a T2 school as they would out of a T1 I am not buying it. Common sense alone should tell you that is not close to being true. If you truly did believe that then perhaps it is that same lack of common sense, foresight, and sound judgment that is keeping biglaw recruiters away from you and your school.
2:40, that's demonstrably false. That fat ogre partner from S&C that was getting a bunch of coverage here a while back for his role in Charneygate went to some terrible 2nd or 3rd tier school. There are plenty of others. And law review is totally irrelevant to partnership (what it really matters for is professorships).
"I can list about 40-50 large firms nationwide that will hire anyone with a pulse to work in employee benefits and tax."
This is FALSE. Tax is very hard to get into.
Reality Check is right, however it does not make the Kia salesman who sits there and talks about the autobahn and the quiet ride and horsepower an honest person.
My 2 cents.
1) Have the least amount of debt possible when leaving law school. That way, you have the most options.
2) The big paychecks come with their own hefty price-tag.
3) Don't go to law school if you can't think of a single lawyer you admire.
4) Getting the biglaw or DOJ job is more about what you know (or who you know), than what school you attended.
2:46, Whatever you need to tell yourself.
"Grades and schools mean much less five years out."
Tell that to TTT and lower grads who, five years out, are pressed for transcripts and drilled on why they went to THAT school.
I went to a top 15 state school. Came out with only $35k in debt and work in biglaw now.
It helps that my school gave scholarships if you went to undergrad there. I paid off my loans with my first bonus check.
4) Getting the biglaw or DOJ job is more about what you know (or who you know), than what school you attended.
###################
For the most part, I agree with this sentiment. However, I would state it as follows.
To get into biglaw or the DOJ, you must have one of the following three thing:
1. Decent grades from a great school;
2. Great grades from a decent school;
3. Someone to hook you up (whether through a clerkship or directly into the firm/Dept.).
Otherwise, forget it (unless you have some "exceptional" personal quality to which many legal employers are attracted).
2:51(2), if that's directed at me, I went to HLS (and finished in the top 1/4 of my class), thanks. My comment was directed at the comment of 2:40 (who obviously has never worked in biglaw), who claimed that it is a prerequisite to biglaw partnership that one go to one of the "very top schools" and be on law review. That is idiotic. If you've gone to one of the "very top schools," you don't need to have been on law review to get a law firm job. And there are certainly people that are not "very top law school" graduates (but who were on law review and graduated at the top of their, say, #30 school), who get big law jobs. Run searches on every top 10 NYC firm for Fordham law school grads if you don't believe me. And once you're in the door as an associate, you have an equal(ly miniscule) shot at partnership with the rest of your class. If you really think the committee is playing down 8-9 years of work at the firm and actually making partnership decisions based on law school at that point, you're a moron.
Potential client, the best part of me being where I am is exactly what you said, getting a JD out of boredom. Are you saying that no one opens their own office (and succeeds) right out of law school? If so, then I would prefer smarter clients. I think I would prefer doing my own thing, even part time, than cow towing to some of the partners described on this board. The man in me wouldn't allow my pride and self respect to be shut in a closet the whole time I was in BigLaw.
2:59
By top 15 state school do you mean a top 15 school that happens to be a state shool or do you mean the fifteenth best state school? Obviously, if you can get in-state at Michigan, UVA or Boalt (anywhere else?) nothing can beat that. Scholarship isn't even needed.
Dear (Pretend) Potential Client:
If a (real) client is paying new-lawyer billing rates either way, do you think he will prefer:
1. A 24-your-old kid who has never held a real job before; or
2. Someone who is all growed up?
Just a thought.
3:00 you forgot
4. Previous work experience in a sought after industry; or
5. A sought after undergraduate degree.
amen to reality check at 2:46
"Are you saying that no one opens their own office (and succeeds) right out of law school?"
Ding, ding, ding... we have a winner, Johnny.
I guess you can teach old dogs new tricks.
Enjoy your $500 per month paid from the dirty pockets of local crackheads, OG.
Silly 3:04, "Old Guy" is talking about hanging a shingle and heading out for himself. So your comparison is fallacious. No one is paying a "24-your-old" (sic) to fully manage a case from high-level strategy on down; they're paying him (for those hours that aren't written off) to do what an experienced partner (or a senior associate through said experienced partner) tells him to do. Put another way, the client is hiring the partner, and the firm; not the first-year associate. What "Old Guy" is seeking is to be hired directly by the client as a first-year associate (with zero support).
Much of this has already been said, but if anyone thinking of going to law school is reading this, I hope it helps.
I go to a school ranked in the lower 30's (I guess thats tier one) in a major metropolitan area. I'm in the top 10% and on law review. I went straight to law school from undergrad (mistake!), but I've got a couple of good internships on my resume, including a DoJ internship.
I struck out completely with fall recruiting/OCI. I was assured by many people (career office and younger attorneys in the area that I know) that I wouldnt have a problem getting a job, but that is not the case. Maybe I'm a terrible interviewer (or at least not as good as others), but that doesnt account for the fact that all of my friends that are similarly ranked (or even higher) and are also on law review or another journal, are in the same boat. Even those with prior work experience (paralegals at big firms even) are having this experience.
I offer this kernel of knowledge because I want to rebut the suggestion that firms are reaching down into lower tier 1 and tier 2 schools in the top of the class. The experience may be different at other schools, or if you have contacts at firms, but if you're like me and are young, naive, don't know any big firm lawyers, and want to make a decent (not exorbitant) living, don't go to law school. Get another job and avoid the pointless debt. I'm lucky that my school is less than $30k a year.
03:04 (1),
I dod not suggest that potential clients would rather have an young know-nothing over an old-know-nothing.
To the contrary, I wrote:
"You see, I would much prefer to hire a 47 year-old, inexperienced lawyer who decided to go to law school out of boredom than a 47 year-old lawyer with 23 years of experience."
But thanks for playing.
Loyola2L's tears can cure cancer.
Unfortunately Loyola2L has never cried.
3:09-
It isn't clear that OG's dream is to work at the bottom of the BigLaw food chain.
And of course, it's [sic], not (sic), but who's counting?
From what I can tell, Old Guy is likely some stupid current law student (hating life in Georgia).
Or he is who he claims to be (and a complete moron).
Either way, he's one less chump with whom to compete for work.
3:13, you sir should be on law review with that brilliant editorial comment.
LOL, you guys are a trip. I have enough experience (IRL) that I wouldn't have to depend on crackheads. I want to do animal law anyway. Trust me folks, I wouldn't do this if I wasn't prepared for ALL outcomes.
BTW, thanks for the support (or at least not flaming me) from some of you.
I am the real L2L, my name is Diego Montoya, you killed my father....prepare to die.
I am the real L2L, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father....prepare to die.
"I want to do animal law anyway."
Lot's of potentially wealthy clients it that exciting niche practice, Old Guy...
1. Leona Hemsley's rich dog;
2. Mike Vick's surviving dogs;
3. Paris Hilton's chihuahua;
4. The white tiger that attacked Roy Horn of Siegfried and Roy....
Smart!
It seems that I've struck a nerve with the young'uns. Thank's for the comments but it's time to go home. Ya'll have fun with those late hours ...k!
BTW, I love Georgia, been all over the world and keep coming back.
Laters,
Here's some fresh advice:
If you can't get into a top school, go to the shittiest school that gives you a free ride. Work hard, have top grades (and I mean like top 5 or 10 students), and you're practically gauranteed a transfer to a top 20 school. Sure, a little risky, but i've met lots of people who've done it.
"Laters,"
----------------
Is that Georgian for "goodbye" or "I'm a douche"?
And, I know from experience that there is no hell hotter or more horrible than Georgia, USA.
3:04/3:13 - of course OG's dream isn't working at the bottom of BIGLAW; his dream is to hang up a shingle with no work experience. The point of my post is that this dream is merely that, and will never pay off. 3:07 made the point more directly.
As for your editing, I'm sorry, but you'll have to try again. "Sic" would get brackets if it were included in a quote (just like any other editorial additions that come within a quote); parentheses are just fine otherwise. But before you get to learning these intricacies (or lecturing me about them), you might do better to learn how to spell "year."
I am anonymous!
What about those of us deciding between biglaw offers for next summer? Are you playing with fire by taking a 160 offer from boutique that may be more susceptible to a downturn? Is it a safer bet in terms of job security to take the most prestigious firm? Or does none of this apply to us anymore?
Do you have a 160 offer from a boutique and a more prestigious firm or is this just a hypothetical question.
It is a safer bet in terms of job security to take the most prestigious firm.
3:03.. I meant a state school in the top 15.
Although I really wanted to go to Columbia, I couldn't justify the cost difference.
If you want to practice law at the Dept of State, then you need to go to a school ranked no lower than T14 and dominate. You most likely need a great clerkship too. If you want to be a foreign service officer, then you should go to peace corps or live abroad and work with a NGO. Then, I would avoid those graduate schools like SAIS or SIPA, for debt-related reasons listed above. Finally, you most likely will not pass the written exam, much less an oral exam, so this is moot.
Become a teacher!
If you want to practice law at the Dept of State, then you need to go to a school ranked no lower than T14 and dominate. You most likely need a great clerkship too. If you want to be a foreign service officer, then you should go to peace corps or live abroad and work with a NGO. Then, I would avoid those graduate schools like SAIS or SIPA, for debt-related reasons listed above. Finally, you most likely will not pass the written exam, much less an oral exam, so this is moot.
Become a teacher!
My comments as posted in the WSJ comments section beneath the article:
I think that Amir Efrati should recieve the Tom The Temp/John Bungsolaphagus Pulitzer Prize for “investigative” journalism in exposing the pyramid scheme or “scam” that is the so-called “profession” of the “law” (and I use the terms in quotes extremely loosely) as it applies to those who were not in the top 14 law schools or top 10% of their toilet law school classes.
Efrati’s article is the atomic bomb that sends ripples of radioactive truth throughout American society and in the short time that it has been out is spreading like wildfire. Hopefully the truth will spread to the average American who is not involved in the legal profession.
I think that Scott Bullock (a.k.a. Seton Hall grad “Law Is 4 Losers”) should be given 72 virgins for his career suicidal move in outing himself and contributing as a source for the WSJ article. Perhaps he should also be named the patron saint of all law toileteers who shall protect them from the evils that lurk every where in “lawland” waiting to destroy many, if not most of the attorneys admitted to the bar between 2001 and the present.
God bless Amir Efrati, God bless Scott Bullock and may God bless all of America’s legal toileteers!
Comment by The John Bungsolaphagus - September 24, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Now legal koolaid drinkers and naysayers alike....discuss...
God Bless!
Old Guy,
Don't listen to these 23 year old biglaw bound know nothings. They judge self worth by the car they drive and forget that the guy who rides around in the 8 year old Honda is probably a millionaire because he drives an 8 year old Honda. Many on this board would love to be in your shoes. You are successful, can go to law school on your own terms, and can take or leave a law job. Don't let people talk down to you because you have the luxury of doing what you want. They wish they could.
L2L can't out himself/herself because there are a ton of us.
Old Guy,
Don't listen to these 23 year old biglaw bound know nothings. They judge self worth by the car they drive and forget that the guy who rides around in the 8 year old Honda is probably a millionaire because he drives an 8 year old Honda. Many on this board would love to be in your shoes. You are successful, can go to law school on your own terms, and can take or leave a law job. Don't let people talk down to you because you have the luxury of doing what you want. They wish they could.
Posted by: lesser old guy | September 24, 2007 05:28 PM
666666666666666666666666666666666
Sorry but you're wrong (except about being the "lesser" old guy).
None of the associates at my firm waste money on cars. We spend it on coke and whores.
And that guy in the 8-yr old Honda is no millionaire, buddy. He's my cleaning lady.
And, what the fuck does going to law school "on your terms" even mean: sound to me like an your urging OG to waste money on a professional degree and NOT try to maximize his income.
Ridiculous advice from a ridiculous person.
Thank you for proving my point. You fault those who do not have the goal of making the most money they can. I have no problem with that being your goal, (hell, its my goal too) but why criticize someone if it isnt. I will grant you that it would be rediculous advice to someone 25 years old with 200,000 in debt but that is not Old Guy, so any advice to him from anyone here is irrelevant. Why do you care if he practices animal law. I don't even know what that is (my 4T school doesn't have that class).
Anyone who thinks law review membership (or the law school you attend for that matter) has anything to do with making partner at a big firm is clueless. If by the time you're up for partner you're still hanging your hat on law school accomplishments, you probably don't have much hope...
Perhaps Old Guy is already financially secure from his prior career, doesn't need the money, and is looking for a fulfilling career in law that does not involve toiling as an associate for years in a big law firm. That is worthy of admiration, not ridicule.
All old people deserve constant and loud ridicule from the youth.
Again, thanks for the support. I am by no means looking for the road to riches. I make very well and my school is paid for (except misc. fees). I choose what area of law I want to practice. I am in a good position because of the conservative way I have lived to this point. Now, it's time I do something that I want to do rather than something I have to. It's actually kind of nice not to have the pressure that you guys have. Then again, you can tell you guys are young, look at the way you handle pressure.
Time to hit The Capital Grille!
(Here come the flames about "chain restaurants”, right?)
All this talk about rank is actually kind of funny. We all take the same bar (respective of State), right?
The only people who care about rank are the ones that depend on it when they have nothing else to talk about.
BTW, I have been talking to my GC and have almost convinced her to only accept A&B people that graduated locally. She's a UGA grad herself. ;0)
UGA grad+ GC for fortune 1000 company = $986k a year. Not bad for a local Georgia girl. :0)
11:45: I agree with you. As someone who had to pay her own way through law school -- and that means tuition, books, rent, food, car insurance, cell phone, travel, etc. -- at a T10 law school, my total student debt exceeded $175,000. Students at Cornell and Duke will end up paying less in terms of overall rent/food than Yale, Penn and Chicago, all of which in turn will cost less than Stanford, NYU, Columbia, and Harvard due to cost of living. (Total costs at Michigan, UVa and Boalt hard to calculate given in-state v. out of state distinctions, although Ann Arbor and Charlottesville are very livable.) The base tuition at these school is over $40K -- so students will graduate with at least $120K in student debt from tuition alone. When you add in all the other attendant costs over three years, law school's ticket is well over the $100K this and other articles float.
UGA grad+ GC for fortune 1000 company = $986k a year.
------------------------
Bullshit.
What a petty, desparate little thing you must be to dream up such a fantasy.
Oh, and insane.
General comment about CSM's questions. I'm a pretty firm believer that there is almost no such thing as a shoe-in. Getting into law school is really competitive and subjective and a lot of times even good stats don't guarantee getting into a good school. I've heard of statistically competitive students who have not gotten into schools b/c they weren't very involved and didn't have a particularly inspiring essay. sometimes it comes down to what the school wants and what they already have and you just have to make your application as attractive as possible.
Annoyed 2L,
Are you at George Mason? If so, I feel your pain. The Career Services Office is not very open about what a given student's realistic expectations should be and what types of jobs the majority of graduates get.
Wow, that was quick and easy reply. Now, try some research. They do teach research in your T10 law school right? Maybe it's just the T50+ that actually do real school work.
Hey Old Guy:
Aren't you supposed to be enjoying a nice meal at "The Capital Grille" right now?
I guess you decided to stay at your desk to read the comments to ATL posts and contemplate the difficult choices ahead of you in your law school daliance.
Or, maybe your full of shit.
7:15: You have no idea what you are talking about. The GMU career office is very realistic about what student can expect but bright eyed law students choose to ignore them. A lot of students just bitch and never speak to the career counselors. Talk to Ilissa and Victoria, they'll let you know exactly where you stand and point you to the right firm or job.
I go to a 2d tier (state) school because I wanted the education without the debt. I knew it would be tougher to get into Biglaw, but there are no guarantees in life (outside T10) and I'd rather have my options open. It was a no-brainer: my tuition could be $36k or less than $10k.
I'm a 3L and will clerk for two years (federal magistrate), after which I'll go into Biglaw if I want to, but not because my student loans demand it.
There are plenty of people who come in with ridiculous misconceptions about the job market and their place in it. Those people are naive, stupid, or both. If they're lucky, they're learning their lessons at state school, if not, well, have fun drowning in debt. Paying for a private school lower than top 20 is just an exceptionally bad investment. My school's career office is a joke, but I have plenty of classmates going straight into Biglaw because they recognized what it takes to get there from USNews 21+. There is plenty of blame to go around for the shameless private law schools and their ill-informed customers.
CSM--It really depends on what you want to do. If you want to work in BigLaw, go to the best school you get into and finish in the top 10%. You will get into a top-20 school, but no one cares about your LSAT score or college grades when you're applying for a job. It's all about law school grades that your competing for with people just as smart as yourself.
If you're interested in other things (e.g., public interest, prosecutor, etc.) consider going to the best public school in your home state, particularly if you can go for free or close to free. If you finish at the top of your class, you'll still have BigLaw options (and very little debt--essentially making you WAY better off than your peers).
I enjoy being petty. Looks like I came to the right place.
Uh, I don't think anyone can be "pointed" to a job. Even the supposedly crappy government jobs get 500+ applications for each spot.
DON'T YOU GET IT. IT'S THE PERFECT TEST. IF YOU ARE GULLIBLE ENOUGH TO TAKE THOSE STATISTICS AT FACE VALUE YOU SHOULDN'T BE HIRED. NOT THAT YOU DUMB, BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE AVERAGE AND NOT A CRITICAL THINKER.
"IF YOU ARE GULLIBLE ENOUGH TO TAKE THOSE STATISTICS AT FACE VALUE YOU SHOULDN'T BE HIRED."
Interesting theory.
Old guy,
For once in my life I'm enjoying my job. Go for it. I've been where you are with a six figure income. I make more now working at biglaw. The partners respect me and I get better work then my classmates in the same year - i.e. less document review and more client ineterface, analysis, research, and writing.
PS. BTW, Old Guy, I am pretty sure that one of the partners from another firm - one of the Vault top ten - I've worked with attended GSU, because I remember having a discussion about "sweet tea." It is correctly made by putting the sugar in when the tea is just brewed. Any other time, you might as well leave the sugar out because it doesn't dissolve. They do sweet tea right in Georgia.
I just checked the firm website. I'm right. Go find the partner and the rest of you elitist here STFU.
"I just checked the firm website. I'm right. Go find the partner and the rest of you elitist here STFU."
Anecdotal evidence of people attending lower-ranked schools and being successful at elite firms is great for proving that the statement "if you attended a lower-ranked school you can never ever be successful at elite fims" is incorrect.
However it doesn't do a whole lot regarding the statement "if you attended a lower-ranked school you will have a harder time being successful in legal practice in general simply because there is not as much of a presumption that you're smart and hard-working."
Fair or not, the pedigree of your education determines how much you have to prove yourself.
Or not. Who knows.
10:14 That was by far the dumbest and most insulting commet yet made on this entire website. Do you in fact work at a lawfirm and have some experience to back up that post, or is this just pulled from your ass as you sit in a lawschool library somewhere not studying.
For the vast majority of people attending a top ten law school is simply not going to happen, it is a matter of money, undergrad degrees and grades. No one, except may top ten law students thinks that attending those schools is a measure of ones worth.
The Loyola2L's of the world are correct in saying that all the schools act as if everyone works for large salaries for biglaw. This is a problem because anyone's chances of getting into biglaw are incredibly small. Just like I am sure there are people in the NFL and MLB who played for a division III college and still made it, I am sure that there are partners at BigLaw firms from lower lawschools, but they are rare exceptions.
Most lawyers will not make 160 in their lives. It is still a good, noble profession where you can make good money doing good work.
But you can stick your pedigree of education up your ass.
I am assuming from the nearly incoherent prose and the spelling and grammatical mistakes peppered throughout each missive that the comments of 9:10, 9:24, and 10:22 are from the same person.
Listen Old Guy, or any other reader of this blog, you need only read the words on the page to judge the caliber of the speaker and to know who is right and who is wrong. The fact is, people should practice like they play-- that is, if your blog comments are sloppy and reflect poor habits and easily corrected mistakes (such as using “then” instead of “than,” or using malapropisms like: “…your pedigree of education…”, or failing to use the plural form of a noun when required, or using the one word erroneous spelling of “lawfirm”), one is likely the kind of soft-headed hack who should be politely tolerated but promptly ignored.
Look for complete sentences and correct spelling before giving any credence to any of the nonsense in these comments.
(By the way 9:24, why don’t you impress us all and post the firm bio of this GSU partner at an elite firm. And, remember, elite means New York City.)
And here I always thought there was more to being a lawyer than six-figure salaries. Silly me.
When one is working because one must work (and unless you are wealthy, that's your lot) ALL THAT MATTERS is money.
If you feel differently, then you are a good little slave and must make your masters very happy.
11:43,
You write that Elite means New York City and spelling and grammer in blog comments are the measure of intelligence and wisdom.
Perfect. Just perfect. You will make an excellent clerk and a fantastic litigation associate as you spend your career parsing the finer points of Rule 12(b)(6).
Have fun.
11:43 - I did not post at 10:22. Why don't you impress everyone here and do a simple search yourself on the Vault top ten, and find the partner yourself? Then also admit that it is a New York firm (I'm not really sure, but aren't allof the Vault top ten)? Or are you just not capable of that? This is a blog, not an application to a Federal COA judge - it is more likely than not that people are more sloppy here than normal - because they can be. I did, however, enjoy my year after graduation from a top law school clerking for a very prestigious Federal COA judge before I had my choice of any number of Biglaw jobs. Yes, I have excellent credentials - I just don't think you have to have credentials to make it in biglaw. I see lots of attorneys that don't have them and do very well everyday.
I also see jerks like you who do nothing but try and belittle those you think don't have your credentials.
12:17, you're not just a stupid liar, you are a galactically stupid liar.
No one is fooled.
You hit the nail on the head, 12:15.
I was; I am; I am.
Whatever you say, 12:31. Either your clerkship was miserable or you did not have one?
Old Guy, if you want to give me your email address, I'll contact you and we can talk. This is my first attempt at trying to give anybody support here and I don't have time to keep defending my posts. I'd still like to offer you my support - so let me know. Going to law school later in life while working full time is hard. I developed strategies to make it work, and I'd be happy to share those with you. Otherwise, good luck and try to have fun. Try and ignore the rest of the crap that goes with. It's much like those posting here.
Thanks 12:49.
OLDGUYLS'@'gmail.com. Shoot me a line. Don't worry about this email getting spam, I just created it.
Remove the ' on either side of the @ symbol.
Here is what I don't understand....don't people do their own research instead of relying on the schools, the very people that are trying to sell you on their institution? Not getting all of the facts for yourself before committing to law school seems to me like the makings of a bad lawyer.
Think about it this way....do you really think there is no difference in job prospects between a top school and a tier 2/3 school? Of course it will be more difficult to get a high paying job from a lower rated school. How do you not think about this before deciding to go?
I go to a Tier 2, and I know if I am not at the very top of my class I will not be getting a big law job, and even then I may not. But you know what? I want to be a lawyer, so I don't have many other choices. Whatever happens with money happens. The thing is, I thought about these possibilities for myself, and didn't just blindly listen to a school official that is trying to sell me on a school.
This is all fascinating. Why not move to a system where you get the job first at a law firm and get them to pay your tuition and guarantee you a job for your first two years out of law school? That's how we do it here in the UK. That way you don't build up any more debts, and you're sure of a job for at least two years after you're out of school.
Some of the big firms (including US firms over here like Skadden and White & Case) even pay us living expenses - I'm getting a 16k this year to live on from my future employer on top of all my tuition paid.
BTW - 12:31, Old Guy has my credentials now. Why don't you send him yours so he can do two things. First he can verify that everything I said was right on (without giveing away anyhting about me), and two give a general comparson of us. Come on, put your credentials out there!
"10:14 That was by far the dumbest and most insulting commet yet made on this entire website."
That's why I added a qualifier that I might, in fact, be wrong.
But hey, I get the impression that there are people out there who care about what your degree says on it because they make assumptions based on it. Or maybe they don't.
P.S. I'd like to note that nowhere did I in fact suggest anything about the actual capabilities of students attending non-topwhatever schools. I simply suggested that people (in general) make assumptions based on limited data.
You shouldn't just assume people are being elitist, because sometimes they're not.
Or not. Who knows. I really should be studying for my LSATs or something.
I think I'm trusting 1:56. Great stuff and all true and verifiable.
BTW, thanks for sending that to me. Not that I really believe the individuals on a blog, but concrete evidence is much better than anonymous, fly-by-night information. ;0)
1:06: I agree about the research. I have done a tremendous amount of it. Including NALP and associates/partners at certain firms. I have read very good reviews on GSU (various sources) and I don't think I will be making a mistake by going there. You're right, it all comes down to the individual making it happen. Even though I want to do animal law, it will still be nice to be able to bump an "elite" off the offer wagon. ;0)
1:56 = Old Guy = loser with nothing other to do than troll ATL comments.
(And, no matter how many times you keep saying otherwise, GSU licks my taint.)
1:56 = Old Guy = 2:57 = me
Jeez I'm bored.
Awww poor wittle 2:57, all that prestige and no one to brag too? Surely there's a cleaning lady left in your office. I'm sure she would love to sit and listen. Too bad (for you) that you will be working for this GSU grad one day.
3:04, Old Guy=Old Guy. I don't post with anything else. I know you're not used to honesty, but there you have it.
I just turned 40 and I am going to go to the cheapest law school I can get into and hang out a shingle as soon as I pass the bar supplementing my income by doing appearances/research for other attorneys - I wanted to be a lawyer for decades but life got in the way and if I make $60k after graduation thats ok with me.
10:45, you will kill yourself in 7 years (or wish you had the courage to).
No doubt about it.
Good for you 10:45, Do what you want to do. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
BigLaw would not hire anyone here based on personality alone, save the real L2L, 2:46(2), and oldguy. Good luck kids.
dIE, oLD gUY!
To CSM paralegal: I think you should be able to get into the top 20. I went to Middlebury, had a slightly higher LSAT, a lower GPA, and I got into the top 20. Just write a decent essay and you should be fine.
With a 3.5 from Midd I would say that you should be aiming at the top 5-10. Top 15 or top 20 is really very qualitatively different from top 10. Especially if you are interested in the DoJ. You really want to be looking at the top ten. Just my advice, for what it's worth.
If Loyola 2L spent less time pissing and moaning he might have been able to do well enough to be in a better position. He/she says he busted his/her ass but maybe he/she doesn't know what it means to bust ass.
Do yourself a favor, instead of wasting your time complaining, get on your feet. You have one of the largest law school alumni networks in Los Angeles - the largest legal market on the face of the planet. Plenty of Loyola grads have graduated and are doing VERY well. Don't let your disappointed big firm, +2k billable ambitions cloud your judgment.
Also, your ranting and labeling Loyola as a garbage school is doing NOTHING for the degree you are going to come out with. You're out 1 year and $35k -- now that you are so "enlightened" about your prospects as a "2nd tier" law school grad and how bleek you feel your pathetic future is, do the right thing and cut your losses. Even now, your pessimism and outright stupidity is clouding your judgment. If you feel as strongly as you do and don't want to look to the day when getting $500 from a crackhead is a good day -- then drop out! Nobody is holding you back. Stick it to Loyola and take back your $36k for the year...what are you waiting for?
Wouldn't he be "Loyola3L" since we're into a new school year? He or she will be graduating this May.
He would be even more stupid if he didn't drop out in Y2 after on campus recruiting when he realized he wasn't going to get hired
CSM:
If you are really interested in State, skip law school and apply to be a foreign service officer.
old guy is a fraud.