More Tier Two Three Misery: The Boies Schiller Controversy at New York Law School
It’s only Tuesday morning, and we’ve already done several posts on the professional plight of non-elite law school graduates. So we’re declaring this week Non-Top-Tier Law School Week at ATL. If you have a story idea that fits into this theme, please email us.
Here’s our latest tale about the plight of “non-T14” law school grads. It suggests that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad isn’t the only person making controversial appearances at New York area schools.
From a tipster at New York Law School (a Tier 3 school, not to be confused with fourth-ranked NYU; if you ever want to piss off an NYU grad, refer to their alma mater as “New York Law School”):
“New York Law School in Tribeca had David Boies speak at our graduation this past July. Yet his firm does not hire from New York Law School. The only NYLS alum there graduated in 1968.”
Ouch. But for the record, our tipster later emailed us a correction: there’s one more New York Law School grad at Boies Schiller. That makes for a grand total of two (2) NYLS alumni at the firm. But the point is still the same. As our source observes, “they still don’t even do on campus at NYLS.”
“Anyway, this is intended to be more damning of NYLS than it is of Boies Schiller, which has the right to follow any hiring practices they desire. However, NYLS should maybe be a little more selective in who they choose to speak to us third-tier graduates.”
Do you agree with this tipster? Is NYLS degrading itself by, in the words of our tipster, “giving out honorary degrees to people who don’t even hire its graduates”? Or would the tipster’s approach unduly limit the universe of possible graduation speakers?
More discussion, including some email correspondence between an NYLS student and the school’s dean, after the jump.
One NYLS student brought the situation to the attention of the school’s dean, Richard Matasar:
Dean Matasar:[Introductory paragraph, with identifying info, redacted.]
I wanted to bring to your attention something that has been troubling me since Sunday’s commencement ceremony that you may not be aware of, and maybe get some feedback from you.
I am still on the job search, and a couple of weeks ago I had heard that Boies Schiller was in hiring mode from a friend who works at Skadden Arps. Naturally, I was excited and thrilled to hear this, as I am a Harlan scholar and Law Review member who has still yet to find a job….
I called Boies Schiller’s HR department and asked them if it was true if they were hiring — the woman told me yes, they certainly were. I excitedly submitted a resume to them — yet, unfortunately, I never heard back. Obviously, it is frustrating to hear that a firm in hiring mode has no use for a New York Law School student with Law Review and Honors on his resume.
I didn’t think of it again until I noticed Mr. Boies was scheduled to speak at our commencement. I truly enjoyed his speech and it was nice to have him present. However, this led me to do a little more research on the firm and I discovered that Boies Schiller only employs ONE New York Law School graduate—who graduated in 1968. In addition, Vault Law’s profile on Boies Schiller mentions how tough it is to get a job at Boies Schiller if you are not at a “top tier” law school. Of course, who knows if Mr. Boies is aware of this statistic or not, or what control he has over his firm’s hiring process. Yet, I find it truly frustrating that the attorney chosen to speak at our commencement ceremony’s firm does not value or find the academic performance of students at law school adequate or worth hiring to his own firm. It really is a morale killer during my job search!
I felt I should make you aware of this. Thanks for your time.
Here is Dean Matasar’s response:
[T]hanks for the tip. This is actually very useful information. Bob Mallow, our graduate at the firm, has been working to open them up to our students. I will ask our alumni office to bring this to his attention. It may be a way to start the discussion.I wish you the best. I am sure that there will be a terrific job out there that you will find soon. Good luck on the bar this summer. RM
Is the NYLS student’s complaint justified? Or does it come across as “sour grapes”?
Before you say “sour grapes,” please consider this email from the same NYLS student who emailed Dean Matasar (part of a different chain of correspondence — not with the dean):
i think you are mistaking my motivations at this point, i’m not trying to get in at the firm or get hired there. i feel like its more of a fundamental problem with this school’s decision to give out honorary degrees to people who have absolutely no connection or appreciation of our school that i had to comment. the fact that no one who graduated from NYLS in the last 39 years works there is not just a coincidence.they don’t even perform on-campus interviews at NYLS! this is discrimination and i find it disturbing that the dean or no one else for that matter even felt this was an issue. instead, we are supposed to be wowed by boies “celebrity lawyer” status alone. his firm may be small and selective, but in turn, NYLS should be selective in who we choose to speak at our commencement, and give honorary degrees to people who actually appreciate the same hard work we do as all the top tier law schools.
i really felt all of this was a slap in the face. never mind the fact that out of 15 alumni that work in [specialized field] i have written over the past six months, I got a response from 1 of them. not even the head of [specialized field] at [firm X], an NYLS alum.
it’s not that i feel entitled, and my emails were never intended to come across that way. i just know i’m the only one speaking up on this issue, and i feel it is very relevant to all 2007 graduates.
So what do you think? Maybe it’s like the Loyola 2L debate, all over again: What’s the difference between raising legitimate grievances and unproductive whining?
(157) Comments
Comments
did this tipster consider that NYLS invited Boies as a way of getting the firm to hire more NYLS grads?
Uh, why would anyone e-mail the Dean in a professional way entirely in lowercase, including all "i" references? I did enjoy the "this is discrimination" and "i really felt all of this was a slap in the face."
NYLS awards JDs? I thought they trained paralegals and legal secretaries.
11:38, obviously that email was part of a different chain of correspondence
"it's not that i feel entitled..."
Good. You have nothing to feel entitled about. You are on law review and an honors student at a bad law school. That's like being the skinniest girl at fat camp and expecting the varsity quarterback to ask you to homecoming. Accept the fact that, at best, the fourth-chair trombonist might let you make out with him after halftime.
pretty well-reasoned argument, for a 3rd tier student
11:42
way to miss the point completely.
hahaha fat camp.
but seriously, take your JD from NYLS, flip it over, and use it to write a cover letter for a job as regional manager of McDonalds. good luck!
The SCOTUS won't be taking any NYLS grads anytime soon, so I guess NYLS shouldn't jump on a chance to have one of the Justices speak there either.
Good plan for NYLS: bar all speakers who don't actively recruit at the school. Thus, the bulk of the AmLaw 100, the DOJ, and pretty much all federal appellate judges are henceforth barred from school property.
Good work NYLS 2L!
It's amazing how that website of stock photos Lat uses had a picture of David Boies yawing.
How many schools are in "Tier 1"?? US News lists the top 100 and then goes to Tiers 3 and 4. What group makes up "Tier 2"?
11:49: They can still have the JAG corp speak!
If NYLS confined itself to inviting commencement speakers who were NYLS alums/hired from there, those would be some depressing commencement ceremonies indeed. I'm not sure who would end up speaking, but you could definitely rule out S Ct justices, famous professors and superstar lawyers.
Even putting aside the ridiculous, elitist comments at NYLS, it doesn't make much sense to limit speakers to people who 'have a connection and appreciation of our school'. By that token, as someone above pointed out, SCOTUS Justices would not be invited to speak at most schools, since most schools don't send people to the SCOTUS.
The fact is that David Boies is a celebrity lawyer, and someone well-known in the legal field. The fact that his firm doesn't interview at the school has nothing to do with the rationale for inviting him.
11:53 - The first 50 are Tier 1. Are you a law student?
Unfortunately, they rank the Tier 2. They should just put it in alphabetical order. Now toilets like McGeorge and Pepperdine get all uppity when one moves in front of the other.
I'm not a NYLS grad (I went to NYU), but wasn't the last guy who was the U.S. Attorney for the SDNY, who is now a partner at Cahill Gordon, a NYLS grad? I think there are plenty of Harvard and Yales who dream of being the U.S. Attorney and never get it. Lat, you're a former AUSA - isn't this right?
Am I missing something???? What the hell does this have to do with anti-semitism????!!!!
11:58 - If you're right, I was so stupid to choose CLS over NYLS!!
even Cleary is getting desperate for associates - i hear they have been taking NYLS folks of late. having said that i hear nyls has a number of very good looking students
Put on your listining ears, don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining, and then invite me!!!! I'm an alum and I'll straight up tell ya how it is.
Who sends an email to a dean in all lower case???
"The first 50 are Tier 1"
Not really. Tier1 means T14 plus a handful of other schools.
why is everyone quick to point out the "ranking" status of NYLS in their response? is that really relevant to the issue of giving honorary degrees to those who have given something back to the school? either way I'd be agitated if this was my situation..
Futhermore, I work daily with 1st year associates from alleged Tier 1 schools as well as a few from Tier 3's and I'll tell you those Tier 1 grads aren't mind giants--and the few lucky Tier 3 grads that were hired are definitely pulling their weight-- "NYU" lets not hope senior associates feel the same way about you..
not EE-- glad that your brain could only muster up the response of "who writes the dean in all lower case"-- especially after another poster already hit that issue...
I've never understood the whole tier thing. In all seriousness, can someone tell me what tier Seton Hall Law is?
That last email was not to the dean. See Lat's introductory parenthetical: "part of a different chain of correspondence -- not with the dean."
Maybe it was the student who wrote to the dean corresponding with Lat's tipster.
Seton Hall is a big time TTT
12:03 - Tier 1 consists of the first 50 schools. You were lied to, this is common knowledge.
12:07(1): Thank you for just making my day - now please address my anti-semitism bait as well :)
12:08
Hi, UCONN law student!
12:07--excellent reading comprehension skills...
How can you shoot down someone's definition of Tier 1 and then make the comment that Tier 1 means T14 "plus a handful of other schools." That is laughable. What does that even mean? Is that even a definition? What is a handful? 5, 10, 200? You are a fool.
I am always amazed at how many people who claim to be from Tier 1 schools (whatever that truly means) are also morons.
Morons to $160k!!!!
12:07 - Seton Hall is ranked between 50 and 100, so it is Tier 1. That being said, it is one of the worst law schools out there. Stay away from there, don't consider it.
Very weird... I just googled "making out" and "fat girls" and was led here... What is this place? Are you all lawyers?
What's "TTT?" Tier Three ... ? Teir Two/Three?
12:12 - edit, SH is Tier 2.
Tier 1 is top 14. My firm isn't out interviewing at BU and the like...
12:12: Thanks for the info and advice (though too late). Graduated in 04...
11:55 -- are you seriously putting Boies and SCOTUS in the same category--- I'm pretty sure NYLS had Scalia speak at their banquet last year and either Ginsburg or O'Connor a few years prior...SCOTUS is SCOTUS, Celebrity Lawyer is not close to SCOTUS
What about Rutgers Newark, I have heard they place well in some BigLaw New York shops?
12:12, What's the point of calling something "Tier 1," a description which purports to describe a school as superior, if in the same breath you then concede that it's one of the worst law schools out there? Seton Hall is ranked near 80 somewhere. I took BarBri there. Nearly every grad I met is an idiot. It's a TTT if I've ever seen one.
I don't know how U.S. News defines Tier 1, but I think most people would have to admit (including myself, a t20 grad) that the job possibilities for a t10 grad differ from the job possibilities of a t20 grad, and even more so for t30, t40, and t50. At least for those who are not on law review and/or ranked at the top of the class. Therefore, I'm not sure it matters which schools are technically classified as "Tier 1."
LMAO - Seton Hall Tier 1?? Glad to hear someone has a sense of humor. Tier 1 is top 14 - 20 and everything else in the "Top 100" is Tier 2
I know an '07 grad from a t20 with a 3.6 and no journal who hasn't found a job that will pay more than 50K-- but I'm sure there are grds with less stellar credentials who are working BigLaw--from what I get a lot of it is who you know and luck--
11:58 - yes. David Kelley
"the few lucky Tier 3 grads that were hired are definitely pulling their weight"
Preach brother!
tis a toilet
Seton Hall is T2 by ranking although it has some remarkable professors in the past (FFormer Chief Judge of the #rd Cir. John Gibbons, Current Scotus Justice Alito, Congressman Rodino, et all.. A long list. Also, its LSAT numbers are on par with lower 1st tier.
I think it's a perfectly legitimate thing to bring to the Dean's attention. I, for one, would be highly annoyed to get some inspirational speech from somebody who has zero associates from my law school at his firm. Unfortunately, lower-tiered schools will do just about anything to have proximity to big names (especially in front of an audience), even if doing so sells out their students.
I think insisting on having somebody who has some kind of relationship to the law school shows more institutional pride than bending over backwards for a high-profile lawyer who has jack to do with the school.
Is Fordham Tier 1?
everyone on this blog needs to get a life. If you are all so damn smart why the hell do you have all this time to bash on other schools and people.
12:16, Qunnipiac can't be all that bad...
12:15, very few firms only interview at the Top 14, other than Wachtell I can't really think of a V100 firm that doesn't interview at least some people from the top-50...
so go fuck yourself
Ditto 12:33
/Fordham is indeed Tier 1
They should move Cardozo to Tier 1 already.....
Also, Seton Hall is one of those schools that does well regionally independent of the national ranking. Every law firm in NJ has partners that graduated there and most judges in the state and fed system hire clerks from there.
and regarding NYLS students and big firms: this past summer NYLS students were at S&C, cleary, paul weiss, weil, milbank, cadwalader, white & case, proskauer, schulte, lebouef, and the list goes on and on (including SDNY USA)
On one hand, it may not be the best move to block potential new firms who NYLS wants to hire their students. However, it's pretty obvious that the firms out there are seeing how good the NYLS law review students are as attorneys and they're hiring a lot of them. If one firm doesn't want to see that, then maybe this kid that's complaining has a pretty good point to make.
What's the over/under on when some freak finally melts down and jumps off the ramps onto the moot court roof at SHU?
i just can't agree with the mentality that recruiting offices follow by simply taking all resumes that say NYLS and putting them in the trash. because that's obviously what happens. it's ridiculous and i def hear from a lot of people that the tier 1 kids do shitty work.
If you're smart enough to excel at NYLS or any law school, you should also be smart enough to figure out that the legal profession is prestige driven and a lack of prestige is only overcome by many years of hard and excellent work. Sorry, but thems the breaks. If this NYLS grad had done a few days of research prior to enrolling at NYLS, he would have known this, and he probably would have also known that he had no business even applying to Boies Schiller, a small firm at which even most recent HLS grads have no shot.
11:42's high school analogy is pretty harsh, but god is it apt. For fuck's sake, wise up NYLS.
Fordham is second tier, except perhaps at ID firms.
Hey oh lordy,
If Tier 1 grads do shitty work generally, what do you think Tier 4 grads accomplish generally? Your reasonsing is poor.
I agree with Penis, Seton Hall Law is a toilet.
T3 - YHS
T14 - US News 4-14
Tier 1 - US News 15-50
Tier 2 - US News 51-100
Tier 3/Tier 4 - Don't bother
Really, to anyone who makes up some arbitrary Tier 1 defined as 15 through whatever school they go to (I'm talking to you, Boston!), that's a little sad.
Seton Hall places better than Rutgers-Newark, though both are squarely in tier-2.
You will need top grades + law review to get to NY BigLaw, but local shops hire profusely out of both.
While Seton Hall and Rutgers definitely aren't on-par with Tier 1 (where Tier 1 is comprised of however many schools you can say are "elite" with a straight face), they definitely are better choices than the other lower-tier schools in the NY area (NYLS, Brooklyn, Tauro, etc.) because there is a good middle-market of firms in Jersey that hire out of the Jersey schools while the New York TTT's are all fighting with the big boys in Manhattan.
Touro? Would that be the Jacob, ahem, Fuchsberg SOL?
Alright, let's see if we can get some kind of consensus here. Let's assume the top 14 are Tier 1. How about the rest of the top 25?:
UCLA
USC
Vanderbilt
U of Texas
Washington U (St. Louis)
Boston U
U of Minn.
Emory
George Washington
U of Iowa
Fordham
U of Illinois
Washington & Lee
12:59, there's an entire board devoted to these questions. It's currently got legal troubles, but there are approximately 168,473,517,634,681,114,684,142,817 threads on this topic.
Droppin wisdom on you bitches:
T14 is T14.
Tier 1 is necessarily more expansive than T14, otherwise we'd just say Tier 1, not T14 (not to mention under US News, the unofficial law school prestige Bible, Tier 1 is Top 50).
Tier 1 is the Top 50. Tier 2 is 50-100. Everything else is TTT.
12:42 (and 11:42) -- In the words of the Big Lebowski: you're not wrong, you're just an asshole.
And you do miss the point.
The student was not specifically complaining about BOIES. He knows he has no shot at Boies's law firm, and even if he's not happy about this, it wasn't really the point of his second email.
Primarily, the student was complaining about the NYLS ADMINISTRATION, which unwisely booked Boies as graduation speaker. In the students' opinion, it was simply unwise to book a speaker who doesn't value the work of NYLS grads.
I think this is a fair point. If a law school graduation speaker is supposed to motivate, Boies may have indeed been a bad choice. It's hard to be inspired by someone if you perceive that person as categorically lacking respect for "people like you," i.e., NYLS grads.
To Anonymous, 12:15 PM :
Just because your firm doesn't recruit at BU does not mean that your firm controls the definition of Tier 1.
F'ing pretentious, twats like you can suck my non-existent balls.
OK, perhaps I came late to these discussions, but why top 14? And top 14 based on what? US News rankings or student quality, which can be quite different?
Annie, can we date?
1:05 There is no other board. There is only ATL.
no one at my firm was out of the top 15 schools....tier 1 going to 50 is ridiculous
1:19 - not so subtle UCLA trolling. nice try.
Why T14? Is GULC that much better than UCLA at 15? The T4-13 schools seem to shuffle around a lot, but GULC has been stuck at 14 for a long time.
Annie, sorry you didn't get into a good school. :)
1:07- The student was clearly disappointed by the firm's non-response to his resume.
It's the same as if the guy got dinged for a SCOTUS clerkship and asked the school not to have any more SCOTUS justices ove because his feelings were hurt. And, it's not like Boies Schiller has ZERO NYLS alums working there. They have one (or two). I'm sure I could find some MUCH, MUCH LARGER firms that have NONE.
UCLA grads to $90k!
1:07:
they have an NYLS '68 and '99 alum
McDonalds to 190k!
does anyone know what Boies actually said at the graduation?
he said "fight the losing battles, even if you know you will lose"
"It's the same as if the guy got dinged for a SCOTUS clerkship and asked the school not to have any more SCOTUS justices ove because his feelings were hurt."
Surely you're not comparing a SCOTUS clerkship with an associate position at some run-of-the-mill large law firm.
Justice Harlan II went to New York Law School. Check Wikipedia if you don't believe me.
1:25:
I don't think that's a fair comparison, for reasons which seem fairly obvious to me. I can understand why that student would perceive that Boies has no respect for NYLS as an institution. I can't understand why that student would perceive something similar with respect to a Sup Ct justice.
I don't have time to fully explain this intuition, but it has something to do with the fact that Supreme Court justices work in the public interest, while Boies operates as a for-profit lawyer. In other words, Supreme Court justices have the capacity to appreciate the advancement of the legal profession as a whole (even if they don't hire NYLS clerks), while Boies is simply looking out for himself, and has no reason to feel connected to NYLS unless they directly work for him, which they don't.
1:35- Hey peons, I wouldn't let you get my morning Starbucks for me. Boies out!
Sandy, I believe you; rather, I know. But along the same lines, I should tell you that France used to be a great military power. Check Wikipedia if you don't believe me.
12:03--Tier 1 is certainly more than the T14 plus a handful of other schools.
Does everyone from a "T14" school really think his/her sh*t doesn't stink? It certaibly seems that way based on the comments on this blog.
12:03--Tier 1 is certainly more than the T14 plus a handful of other schools.
Does everyone from a "T14" school really think his/her sh*t doesn't stink? It certainly seems that way based on the comments on this blog.
"Does everyone from a "T14" school really think his/her sh*t doesn't stink? It certaibly seems that way based on the comments on this blog."
It's not that our sh*t doesn't stink. It's just that more employers are willing to bear the stench.
This is a senior partner. All associates from my firm better get off this site right now and get back to work. When I was a young associate we did not have the internet and had to do research in the stacks. And we were paid a nickel a year and were happy to get it.
1:45: That's a very interesting, and, I think, precise way to look at it.
it is so obvious the better the tier the more of a douchebag you are. go marry your 1L sweetheart from harvard you fucking losers.
whomever removed two moss bunker from my holding pen at the end of second street, please be aware that I have filed a police report with the RPD.
1:45-
Huh? Boies employs NYLS grads and he spoke at their graduation. How in god's name is that insulting to anyone who isn't a maniac inflicted with the most bizarre case of entitlement disease ever?
Coleslaw. Where can I get some good coleslaw.
whomever removed two moss bunker from my holding pen at the end of second street, please be aware that I have filed a police report with the RPD.
I have them.....
NYLS is garbage, the only reason I spoke there is because I thought it was NYU.
Al Gore for President.
Onan, point taken. But I'm sure the top NYLS students are good enough to clerk for some federal judge (maybe one serving in some godforsaken district). I certainly didn't mean to imply that its a school of Supreme Court justices. Even Harvard and Yale are not that.
2:04
employing laterals that at one point in their lives graduated NYLS is not "employing grads" from NYLS. there is a fucking differnece.
Sandy, I have a good friend who went there. He is a real estate developer who does a lot better than most of us biglaw associates. He went part-time to learn legal basics and real estate law. Then he dropped out, as was his plan. That's pretty much the way to go to NYLS. Hoping for a legal career with a JD from there is not necessarily a pipe dream, but just too much of a risk.
2:13- So because I graduated in 2003, I'm no longer an alum of my middling top 25 school? Oh happy day!
2:18:
i don't understand how you don't see the difference between hiring a '68/'99 lateral and hiring a graduate. usually a lateral is hired based on their work experience, not on their alma mater. asshole.
Some of the worst lawyers I know graduated form HLS and UVA, while some of the best lawyers in actual practice graduated from schools that were Tier 4 when they went to those schools.
Many of New York Law School's alumni are currently are or were federal judges, partners at the country's top law firms, and notably involved in academia. Do your research, grow up, and get a life.
Many of New York Law School's alumni are currently or were federal judges, partners at the country's top law firms and notably involved in academia. Unsurprisingly they also work harder and have better attitudes, unlike many who attend top tier schools--at times, NOT based on their intellect or qualifications.
Do your research, get your facts straight, and get a life.
I agree NYLS is TTT and it's hard to get a BigLaw job from there but definitely not impossible. There are so many NYLS grads at Vault Top 20 firms. I made the the choice to go to NYLS (over Tier 1 schools) because I didn't want to come out with $150K in loans - I got a great scholarship to NYLS. I have no loans and work at a Top 20 firm.
So while you T14 grads are complaining about the high loans you have, there are many grads from Tier 2, Tier 3 that are in the same firms as you're in but end up saving a lot more money than you because they don't have the exorbitant loans. And I agree that it's about the prestige but if you ended up in the same firm, what difference does it make?
b-b-b-b-b-ut NYLS CHARGES THE SAME AMOUNT AS T14 SCHOOLS.
It's easier to get a scholarship at a lower tier school so you don't have as much in loans.
2:52: Was your scholarship contingent on your class rank? I knew plenty of people at Brooklyn, where I went, who came in with scholarships that they lost. The best deal is if you get a scholarship that's guaranteed over the three years. Otherwise, it's a huge risk.
oh lordy-- the same goes for undergrad institutions-- my top 10 school charges the same as some p.o.s. private school in the middle of nowhere-- that's the market for education, so I dont see your point-- secondly-- law school admissions is based mostly on LSAT, which is by far the worst benchmark of how good of a lawyer or law student you will be-- I know multiple people who scored below 155 and have Vault top20 jobs.. thus, if you work hard, you get your money's worth-- if your a slacker you made a bad investment
Who even created the concept of T14? I thought there was only top 10 and Georgetown always whining about being left out.
3:14: aren't top10 grads supposed to have good grammar?
sorry my grammar isnt acceptable for posting.. ill make sure to draft my post instead of stream of consciencing it next time.. thanx grammar police..
3:12 -- the scholarship was not guaranteed over three years and yes, if you fall below a certain GPA, you can lose it even right after first year. Many people have lost it. You're right - it is a risk you take. But if you've worked hard all through, then the GPA cut off isn't that hard to maintain.
Most G'towners wanted to go to UVA.
T3 = Schools 1-3
T6 = Schools 4-7 (tie for sixth)
T22 = Schools 1-22
Tier 1 = 1-50
Tier 2 = 51-100
Tier 3 = 101-150
Tier 4 = 151-196
your right, my mistake about the grammar. stream of consciousness is fine for posting.
what?
1:23 - Um UCLA has a law school? And its ranked 15? Maybe 15 from the bottom
1:57. Call me. I gots some work for you to do. Doc review and kissing ass. Salary = a nickel.
Why did you hate GULC?
Some people go to law school because it is a prerequisite for getting their trust fund....so it does not matter where they go or if they work afterwards.
3:15: what do you mean who came up with the T14 concept? Clearly the school at the bottom of the list. The least they could have done was to make it T15 in order to not be so blatant. Douchebags...
Because, like 3:31 said, most Gtowners wanted to go to a top 10 school, and they applied to GULC as a safety school and then ended up having to take their safety school. That meant that everyone had something to prove. The school was full of gunners. And people who wanted to go into politics preaching about shit that most normal folk could care less about. Plus, the administration nickels and dimes you. Watch out 1:57. If GULC keeps nickel and diming everyone, how will you get your salary?
3:15 - I agree.
But you still aren't in the T-14 are you? It's OK. Im sure Hoboken Law will get accredited soon
3:59 - I agree. (above not intended for 3:15)
But you still aren't in the T-14 are you? It's OK. Im sure Hoboken Law will get accredited soon
Insurance law firm salary data is collected and made available at this handy website:
http://nycinsurancelaw.googlepages.com
There are also some firm profiles. I've worked in insurance defense a total of about 2 yrs and I can say that this info is pretty accurate.
I like how people are acting as if the number 14 is arbitrary when in fact it is based on something as opposed to the baseless concept of a top ten.
Look at the placement of the top 14 schools - at all of them more than half of the grads can or will get market jobs and all are nationally recruited from by large firms. The same cannot be said about the rest of the schools, including whatever school is #15. Yes UCLA is good but large firms do not yet consider it on par with the lower T14.
I agree with the student and I've noticed that NYLS has a bad habit of honoring those that won't hire its graduates. For example, I believe NYLS held a symposium honoring Second Circuit Jon Newman. Want to be Judge Newman never hired a NYLS graduate as a clerk?
FYI, yes on Scalia speaking recently and yes David Kelly as an alum, along with (reiterating, I know), many judges, partners of top firms, etc etc.
I went to NYLS. I worked with a Harvard Law student who after her second year had no clue how to "work" Lexis or Westlaw. NYLS might not be enviably ranked, but AAGs at the New York State Attorney General's office could not stop commenting to me about how much more well equipped I was to actually be an attorney because of my "practical" education at NYLS.; I heard the same compliments from my friends worked (and are working) at the top firms.
NYLS students do have a problem with sitting back and complaining about the situation and doing nothing about it. In my experience, Dean Matasar does nothing help the situation.
However, I can say one thing - you can clearly tell who posting here comes from a top law school - no NYLS student that I ever came into contact with has as little class as some of you posting.
Fact is, I'm probably going to graduate with a better grasp of things, take a job at the DAs office or something like that and work to improve myself. Then I'm going to meet you BigLaw crybabies in court and wipe the floor with you cause you didn't learn shit in school besides how to make a resume with your law school looking pretty on it........... that is if you pussies ever grow enough sack to go to court.
In the eyes of many fine ladies, my penis is ranked # 1....
Anyone else notice they recruit at Cardozo but not Fordham.
Guys, we are all in the same boat! Let us come together as brothers and sisters in the field of law. Whats the point of the bitterness and competition. We should all want whats best for the future of law.... ie all schools to improve to be the best they can be.
Schiller is a hypocrite.
these comments are just more proof that lawyers are shitstains. no, wait, I think these are all law students. law students are all shitstains. third tier this you elitist retards. any moron who can read could be a lawyer, it really isn't rocket science...
Insurance law firm salary data is collected and made available at this handy website:
http://nycinsurancelaw.googlepages.com
There are also some firm profiles. I've worked in insurance defense a total of about 2 yrs and I can say that this info is pretty accurate.
3:14
"-- law school admissions is based mostly on LSAT, which is by far the worst benchmark of how good of a lawyer or law student you will be-- "
undergraduate admission is mostly based on SAT. How is law school any different? Try getting into Harvard with a 1200. Not going to happen.
1:23, yeah, GULC is sort of the permanent barrier between spot 15 and spot 13. And, to be fair, Texas, UCLA and others bounce in and out of that 15th spot a lot, too.
US News and World Reports' ranking is crap. Cardozo and Brooklyn are considered to be on par with each other - more or less (top 10-15% for BigLaw) and their rankings usually bounce around 53-60 in the annual reports.
HOWEVER, if you look at both school's incoming 25-75% LSAT and GPA score, they rank alongside the schools in the tier 1 30's. The same goes for Fordham, their incoming LSAT score is way up there...comparable to schools in the teens.
I would argue that the incoming class' LSAT and GPA is a much better indicator of the law school pecking order. And the fact that BLS and Cardozo ranks a lot higher in most other rankings (Leiter etc...) speak volume about what other people think of them.
I did a little lookup on Boies Schiller's site.
They have two attorneys from Brooklyn (BLS) Law. Two from St. Johns. None from Cardozo Law (strange?) and one from Fordham Law. They separated the law school from the main university so NYU LAW is listed separately from NYU.
Have a look.
http://www.bsfllp.com/lawyers/index.html
So Boies Schiller has not just one, but TWO lawyers who graduated from NYLS -- one in 1968, and one in 1999. That's two lawyers in a law firm of 200-250 lawyers. It seems that this fourth tier school is actually overrepresented at Boies Schiller.
How much of this board is just Top 10 law students dumping on people from lower ranked schools for no reason other than to be jerks? You should be ashamed, and I'm disgusted to see fellow NYU students engaging in the same bullshit.
How much of this board is just Top 10 law students dumping on people from lower ranked schools for no reason other than to be jerks? You should be ashamed, and I'm disgusted to see fellow NYU students engaging in the same bullshit.
First- Tier 3 but a law school in NY is like tier 2 anywhere else
Second- the original poster is right on and it is BS that someone would take a school's $$ to speak at a school but not recruit
Third- Market sucks, doesn't matter where you went
Fourth- did great first year, terrible 2nd and 3rd year- have a great job..suckers who did bad first year, great 2nd and 3rd year and graduated ahead of me- sucks to be you!!!
As a law firm recruiter for a prominent firm with offices in New York and New Jersey, I can state with certitude that graduates from Seton Hall School of Law demonstrate a superior legal education, comments made by Anonomous trolls, notwithstanding.
I cannot understand who is posting here, but the comments made by an anonomous troll, wherein he describes Seton Hall Law School as a "toilet" indicates that this is not a forum reserved exclusively for lawyers and law students. Seton Hall Law School is an excellent law school. Its students pass the New York bar with the same success rate, and its students are very successful in finding significant legal jobs right out of law school. As a litigator, I have found many Seton Hall Law School graduates very impressive.
There is no question in my mind that Seton Hall Law School deserves to be in the top fifty, at the very least. Its a fantastic law school.
I would second the notion: the Seton Hall litigators and transactional attorneys who I have encountered are second to none. This can be attributed to a supeior education or mere fortuity; but its a fact. I have met a third year attorney who is in-house counsel for a major real estate company and was literally blown away by his brilliance. This individual happens to be an Orthodox Jew. I was not surprised to hear from him that he, too, is a graduate from Seton Hall, nor did it surprise me to discover tht he found Seton Hall very understanding and thoughtful of his religious needs.
I would second the notion: the Seton Hall litigators and transactional attorneys who I have encountered are second to none. This can be attributed to a supeior education or mere fortuity; but its a fact. I have met a third year attorney who is in-house counsel for a major real estate company and was literally blown away by his brilliance. This individual happens to be an Orthodox Jew. I was not surprised to hear from him that he, too, is a graduate from Seton Hall, nor did it surprise me to discover tht he found Seton Hall very understanding and thoughtful of his religious needs.
I would second the notion: the Seton Hall litigators and transactional attorneys who I have encountered are second to none. This can be attributed to a supeior education or mere fortuity; but its a fact. I have met a third year attorney who is in-house counsel for a major real estate company and was literally blown away by his brilliance. This individual happens to be an Orthodox Jew. I was not surprised to hear from him that he, too, is a graduate from Seton Hall, nor did it surprise me to discover tht he found Seton Hall very understanding and thoughtful of his religious needs.
FYI: This fall, Shearman made around 14 offers to NYLS students for either Summer Associate positions or First-year hires.
So suck my ass.
Fordham is in Fact Tier I, in response to an earlier poster. I would challenge anyone on this site to support an argument that any of the 'other' higher ranked nyc law schools provide a substantively better legal education.