Idiot commenter at 5:35 -- count your blessings if we don't.

who cares?

first!

How is this of interest to anyone who doesn't work at that shitty firm?

Cheap cheap cheap

What the f*** is it exactly that is "fixed" about this bonus? There are hourly targets and ranges. Doesn't strike me as very "fixed," unless they mean spayed or neutered. Still, that's and f***load of money for Atlanta. I think you we need to make $2.7M in NYC to match that.

A fixed bonus that varies by associate is an interesting twist on the meaning of fixed.

And it appears that it is not "fixed" until the end of the year, based on performance, which really makes it variable (though within a "fixed" range, I guess).

Enjoy your Emory recruits, K&S. That's about the best school you can hope to get SAs from.

What does this mean? "The variable performance bonus for hours billed in excess of 2050 will remain, but the hours cap will be removed."

Did someone post before that K&S does not give bonuses over 2400 hours? what is the average amount for a the billable hours bonus?

I work at Alston & Bird. I am now more pissed than ever. First, my firm did not give me the same $15K raise it gave first years who know nothing about being a lawyer. Now, I see that if I keep working my ass off as the firm wants, I'll make about $30K less than someone at K&S up the street. I never thought I'd see the day when K&S fixed compression for total comp. and A&B was the firm missing the boat. The world has gone crazy, and I'm leaving this place as soon as I can.

It's a reasonable scale for those who bill 2050, but barely. The fact remains that Houston pays more at pretty much every class year for fewer hours. It is also far behind the bonuses that Paul Hastings paid last year in Atl. And of course, in other markets you can make quite a bit more whether you bill 2050 or not.

Still, it could be worse, and I at least commend the firm for not blindly following A&B's raise. Senior associate bonuses under this scale have big potential. A 7th year who bills 2200 hours and gets the midrange "fixed" portion of the bonus will make a total bonus of about $57,000.

The comp dynamic between the firms is now pretty interesting. A&B pays more at low hours levels, because it has bonuses that kick in earlier than 2050. But once you get to 2050 and beyond, K&S kills A&B. I expect A&B will use this to further the ridiculous notion that they are a lifestyle firm.

7:36 is right. The notion that people here at A&B work less hard, on average, then people at K&S is a joke, and anyone who thinks otherwise has not met our new firm leaders.

i guess it's better than nothing. 2050 is pretty reasonable. compression is not sooooo bad. K&S is still the king in the ATL.

The de-compressive aspect is commendable. The firm has put it in our hands -- you want to cure compression, then bill 2050. If you don't, then, the compression thing was never that important to you anyway.

7:36-

"A&B pays more at low hours levels, because it has bonuses that kick in earlier than 2050." the amount of A&B's bonus are neglible. At 1900 hours you get like 4%; at 2000 you get ~7%, at 2100 you get ~11%, and that scale stays the same for first through seventh year associates. given the crazy compression, a 7th's year's bonus is not significantly higher than a first's.

Sigh

50 pro bono hours? thats kind of pathetic

8:07 -- do most firms give more than 50 hours of credit towards a billable hour bonus for pro bono work? Seems kind of "industry standard" to me, with a few firms giving more credit and many firms failing to give any credit.

If 7:52's numbers are correct, then an A&B 5th year associate who bills 2050 would receive a bonus of approximately $12,000 (actually, a bit less). By comparison, the same associate would receive $22,500-$40,000 at K&S (plus a slightly higher base salary). That is a MAJOR difference. A&B has to make another move.

MoFo credits 100% of your probono hours to your billable total. Pretty sure other BigLaw firms do the same. Heard Howard Rice caps it off (but at a higher total, maybe 150 hours?).

Re: pro bono issue, note that K&S has a separate "discretionary" bonus for non-billable work, including pro bono. Maybe they want to avoid double-dipping for credit for the same pro bono work.

Atlanta's for suckers. K&S told a friend of mine at OCI that their Charlotte office is paying first years 160.

This is better than what any of the other ATL firms are doing, but Christ - paying the home office less than Charlotte and Houston, both cheaper cities and less profitable offices?

Woohoo!

I am closing my browser window IMMEDIATELY...Doesn't anyone else see the big all-caps CONFIDENTIAL on that memo?

You should all be ashamed for reading this information that was clearly NOT meant for your eyes.

FIRST

9:53 -

what makes you think the Houston office is less profitable than Atlanta? sorry, but no.

Do you think Birmingham salaries will ever catch up to Atlanta, or will the top remain at 95k like it is now?

To all whining Atlanta associates:

If you don't like your salary, then vote with your feet. Don't come on this gossip blog and cry, stomp your feet, and generally act like whiny little bitches. If you decide to stick it out and make partner (like I did at a large Atlanta firm), you too can live the good life. Until then, get back to work, bill some more hours, and help me pay for my private plane. And, as someone pointed out, that memo was marked "Confidential." I'm sure my colleagues at K&S will find the weak link and deal with him/her accordingly.

7:52 -- if you were a partner at a "large Atlanta firm" you would not own a "private plane". Only plaintiffs lawyers are in that category. Stop posing you loser.

Never thought I'd say this, but K&S actually did a good job with this comp. package. For those associates who work 2050, K&S has truly addressed the compression issue, which was the biggest problem in Atlanta. And K&S did not add to the compression issue by giving mid and senior associates a base salary increase less than 1st years, as A&B and SAB had done. I'm surprised they did it, but I'll tip my hat to K&S for this move.

8:18 -- what do you mean compression "was" the problem. For the rest of Atlanta associates who don't work at K&S, the compression problem remains. The fact is that after A&B's raises this year, 1st years are now closer in salary to 5-7th years than they were before the raises.

Wait a second, perhaps I'm missing something here. These K & S raises are an improvement on the compression issue? Good God, my condolences to Atlanta biglaw associates (and I thought partners in Chi were greedy...).

Yes K&S (Atlanta) finally did something, but when the Houston office is getting the compensation below AND the bonus uptick is effective THIS YEAR (which is not the case in Atlanta), plus not increasing the additional $/hour bonus over 2050 (which they did in Houston) it just shows what the Atlanta partners think of their associates.

Year Base Bonus @2050 Add’l $/hr after 2050
1 160000 7500 30
2 170000 10000 30
3 172500 20000 50
4 175000 30000 70
5 180000 40000 80
6 185000 50000 85
7 190000 55000 95
8 195000 55000 105

It also means that you better kiss the team leader's a$$ if you want to be on the high end of that VARIABLE bonus scale at 2050. If you're not part of his practice, GOOD LUCK.

I had to laugh at the closing line of the K&S memo. That "[t]hank you for all that you do" line is the standard sign-off on all Alston & Bird's annual partner reviews. I wonder if the Hayes brothers [managing partner at K&S and apprentice managing partner at A&B, respectively] collaborated on this inspiring expression of management gratitude to the rank and file over their family dinner table.

10:19 -- It looks like the K&S Atlanta scale -- 145-195 for 1-7 years -- is LESS compressed than the scale for K&S Houston. Sure, the Houston bonuses are a bit better for most, but not by a very large margin -- maybe enough to grumble about over your oatmeal, but hardly so much to draw grand negative conclusions. In any event, isn't the real comparison K&S Atlanta vs. other Atlanta firms and K&S Houston vs. other Houston firms if you are trying to draw conclusions about what the partners think about their associates. If in one office they barely meet the market (Houston) and in another market they crush the market (Atlanta), that says something.

Do they really crush the market when Paul Hastings is still paying more than them once bonuses are factored in and when at least two smaller outpost offices are paying on the 160 scale?

Yes, they do. For the firms with large offices in Atlanta, K&S's new scale is at the top (by far) when the bonuses kick in. I have not seen a posting of Paul Hastings bonuses, just rumor that it is a lot, but in any event in Atlanta Paul Hastings is a smallish office (with a bad rep to boot). As for the purported "160 scale": one of those firms is Fish, which is very small here and only has patent lawyers and every big firm in Atlanta, including K&S, has matched that scale for patent lawyers. The only firm is purportedly a Chicago firm with less than 10 associates (if that) -- hardly makes the market.

OFF TOPIC:

Can anyone tell me what the background checks are like at big firms? What questions do they ask you in the application? I've been arrested several times, but all the charges were dropped and expunged from my record, with the exception of one open container (but that's not actual an arrest). I recently passed through an FBI background check with no problems when i interned for a federal judge.

I transferred undergrad schools, but this never came up during the interview process. I did terrible at the first one but really well at the second. My gpa on my resume is my gpa from my second undergrad, which is where i got my degree from magna cum laude. I'm a little worried - should I be?

Last big firm I worked for had retired state police as security and had retired local police on the payroll as full-time P.I.'s. I would imagine this is pretty common. In other words, they have people that do background checks all the time.

While it will most likely not come up in the interview process, it may be in your best interest to raise the issue with head of H.R. Most likely, if it is for minor infractions, it will not be a big issue and they will appreciate your candor. Everyone was young and stupid once.

11:50
Paul Hastings' office in Atlanta is over 100, hardly small. As far as bonuses go, they have sixth years with bonuses close to 100K. I have never heard of a "bad reputation" and I've been working in the Atlanta legal community for some time, but maybe you know more about that.
As far as the smaller offices, don't forget about Dow Lohnes being on the 160 scale.
I'm not saying K&S doesn't beat Alston and Sutherland etc., but they certainly don't "crush the market".

12:22:

Thanks for the response. While a few were minor infractions (noise violation, open container), a few were fairly serious (drug related). But again, all of the charges were dropped and have been expunged. I've never been convicted of anything. Either way, I do plan on being open about it if I'm asked a question about arrests. Interestingly though, NY law prohibits employers from using arrests that haven't led to a conviction in determining whether or not to hire. So I'm not very concerned.

But I'm more concerned about the transferring of undergrad schools. When I started applying to firms, I consulted with career counselors at my school about what I should put on my resume. They said to just put down the school that I received my degree from and that putting that gpa down was fine. I'm worried that my first undergrad might come up and my grades there were terrible. Again, if I'm asked to list my educational history, I will do so, of course. But I'm worried they might think I purposely misled them. I hope I don't come off as paranoid - it's just that the offer I received is too good to be true! Any thoughts?

Ah, Bob-o, it's not prospective legal employers you need to be worrying about. And this business about transferring undergrad schools - I'd be surprised if any firms would care, because it's your LAW SCHOOL grades that count.

What you DO need to be worried about is the character and fitness section of your bar application...

Bob-o,

It doesn't matter. The stress of biglaw will have you back on the shit in about three weeks.

Bobo

And stop using my signoff.

1:12: Yeah well my law school grades are legit - they have a copy of my transcript already. As for character and fitness, I do have my concerns. On my initial application to law school, I disclosed the most serious stuff. I didn't disclose the lesser things - i dont remember why but I think it was because I didn't think I had to based on the phrasing of the question. But I have since spoke to professors at my school and have made an amendment to my response, so everything is out in the open. There's nothing more that I can do at this point besides wait and then present my story when I'm interviewed.

Bobo: Sorry for stealing your handle. I don't usually read the comments on this site. My apologies

1:12: Yeah well my law school grades are legit - they have a copy of my transcript already. As for character and fitness, I do have my concerns. On my initial application to law school, I disclosed the most serious stuff. I didn't disclose the lesser things - i dont remember why but I think it was because I didn't think I had to based on the phrasing of the question. But I have since spoke to professors at my school and have made an amendment to my response, so everything is out in the open. There's nothing more that I can do at this point besides wait and then present my story when I'm interviewed.

Bobo: Sorry for stealing your handle. I don't usually read the comments on this site. My apologies. As for the stress of biglaw, I don't buy into it. Will it be stressful, yeah I'm sure, but what high paying job isn't? So many people come out of law school thinking that they are entitled to something. I don't. I expect to earn the 160k salary that I'll be making.

11:50 - what kind of bad reputation have you heard about Paul Hastings in Atlanta?

sorry for double posts.

The thought that you should have to disclose arrests is absurd to me. Who cares? You can get arrested for anything. You weren’t convicted, so it means nothing. I think any law firm would feel the same way.

The undergraduate thing could be more problematic. If you went straight from the undergrads to law school, then it is more relevant. If time passed, then I wouldn’t feel obligated to disclose. But even if you went straight through, I’m not sure it’s that important. Like somebody else said, if you did well at law school (particularly if you went to a good school), then something like undergraduate grades are meaningless.

In short, I wouldn’t feel obligated to disclose either, but you might mention to HR that you went to another undergraduate school, didn’t do that well, and transferred. If they felt that was important, you’d be happy to send them a transcript. (Although it sounds like you already have interviewed and have an offer. In that case, I wouldn’t bring it up and would not feel guilty about it at all.)

Oh, and here’s some unsolicited advice: next time someone says that you’ve “stolen” their handle on an anonymous online blog, tell them to go fuck themselves.

(And as an aside, I would be shocked if the state bar could punish you in any way for “arrests.” If they try to, I would seek legal help.)

Paul Hastings has a bit of a "churn and burn" reputation for its associates. Also, the Atlanta office is far less profitable than the other offices of the firm, making it hard to really expect any kind of promotion.

Quick website count shows about 57 lawyers called "associate" in the Paul Hastings Atlanta office. Not small, but not large either in Atlanta. This seems besides the point to me, however. Bottom line is that K&S's new comp. is not the top of any firm in the Atlanta market, but it sure beats most firms in the market and particulary the traditional Atlanta firms who hire large chunks 15+ of lawyers every year (e.g., A&B; SAB; KS; TS; MMM; PoGo)

2:12: Thanks. I went straight from undergrad to law school and I'm coming out of a third-tier, so I'm concerned. I'm going to meet with someone at my school to discuss how to handle the situation.

Paul Hastings = New King of the South

FIRST!

25 year olds in Silicon Valley to $190,000,000.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/business/28invent.html

2:27 - "Paul Hastings has a bit of a "churn and burn" reputation for its associates."

Is there a big firm that doesn't have this reputation? Please let me know. I'd love to lateral.

Yeah, K&S has gotten so bad in Atlanta that they don't even have nameplates any more. Instead your name is printed on a piece of paper and slid into place next to your door. Makes it cheaper and faster to replace and pads the GP's pockets with savings when they can you or run you off and they put the next chump in that office.

What is the formula for making partner at these mega-firms? Is it all about billing huge hours year in and year out? Is it about building a little book of business while an associate? Is it a combination of both? Does it take even more?

In relation to the formerly Bob-O's questions, what do you guys think about JUVENILE CONVICTIONS that have been sealed/expunged, and involve moral turpitude (theft)?

If the state statute under which the conviction was sealed/expunged says that the court treats the sealed/expunged conviction as if it never occurred, and the you don't have to disclose it to anyone- should it still be disclosed to state bar licensing authorities and law firms?

If you didn't disclose the sealed/expunged conviction, but the licensing authority or the law firm somehow found out about the conviction later, do you think it would a persuasive argument to stand behind what the statute says? Even if the statute is from a different state than that in which you are planning to practice?

(former) Bobo -

Absolutely nothing to worry about. If the school you eventually graduated from, as well as your law school were ok with your earlier undergrad school, then your law firm would be too. In reality, they don't care. I wouldn't bring it up unless asked.

As for arrests in the past, all that matters is passing your character and fitness section. That is all your firm cares about, anyway. Again, if asked, tell them. Otherwise, it's none of their business.

As for C&F, as long as you don't have anything involving fraud, perjury or false statements, you'll be fine. Drug arrests aren't an issue, as long as they were in the past, and aren't repetitive or otherwise indicitive of a CURRENT drug problem. If you had a past drug problem, but it's not an issue now, then it would not be an issue for he C&F board.

Certainly a marijuana arrest or two are not an issue.

With regards to the resume questions, here is my opinion:

(1) I don't think you need to put your initial undergrad school on your resume. The school you graduated from is fine. The caveat to this is if you received a degree from a community college and then transferred to a 4-year in state school in which case you should list the associates degree in the interest of full disclosure.

(2) With regards to grades, it may be misleading to only put the GPA from your second undergrad. That school probably included your previous GPA into its calculation of your final GPA, right? If so, that combined GPA is what you should put down. If, however, that school only used the grades from your time at that school -- which I think is the case where someone has an associates degree from a community college -- it is fine to only include those grades.

(3) In the background check I did for both my firm and the California bar, I had to list EVERY school I attended over the past 10 years (I think that was the timeframe). In this case, you obviously have to list the first undergrad.

(4) Law firms don't really care about undergrad GPAs, although the magna is obviously a huge plus. Again, though, if your second undergrad gave you the magna distinction, you earned it and can rightfully list it on your resume.

(5) I don't think you'll get blocked from bar admission because of arrests. Like another poster pointed out, a bad cop could just arrest someone because of their race. Convictions are what matter. However, if the background checks ask you to disclose arrests, you should disclose them (even though they have been expunged from your record, best not to lie about these things).

As for the juvenile convictions, I think there are state rules in place about whether these have to be disclosed. I'd follow the rules of the state you are applying to practice in. And I think my firm's background check may have specifically excluded juvenile convictions that have been expunged, but I forget.

In both posters' cases, I think what is relevant is that you made a mistake, but have since corrected that mistake and changed your ways. Acknowledging this to the bar authorities will not keep you from being admitted.

my 2c on all this. biglaw doesn't care what you drank, injected, snorted or lifted when you were a minor. bar might care a little but they can't actually not admit you for it. thing is, the guys who volunteer to do character and fitness interviews (in states that still do that) are definitely NOT biglaw partners. you get some stuffy jerk who feels big when he lectures some barbri student on the awesomeness of being a part of this incredible legal community and the terrible responsibility of adhering to the utmost blah blah blah. ultimately you get admitted, but those guys can totally ruin an otherwise enjoyable (kidding) bar admission process. here's the rub - if you think that maybe they asked a question that requires disclosure, DISCLOSE. you don't have to volunteer info nobody asked about. but if they think you lied to the charater and fitness goons, that can be a WAY more serious problem than whatever shit you pulled when you were 16.

Shouldn't we be talking about the new salary schedule? I definitely think it's good that they've increased the minimum bonus you get if you hit 2050 hours. But the amount of discretion given to Practice Group Leaders (who basically control $20,000 of the bonus) has me concerned.

Additionally, the new structure basically protects the partnership if there is a market slowdown -- you can't get the hours because the market is slow (or the dynamics of the office change, for that matter) and the associate takes the hit. If there is going to be a discretionary aspect, it shouldn't be tied to hours.

8:15,

What is the reason for the necessity of disclosing that you received an A.A. at a community college and then transfered to a state 4 year school?

Does biglaw frown on people who started at community college? Or is it just because a degree was conferred, or some other reason?

6:21 -- yeah, that nameplate savings really pads GP's pockets. saves about a dollar and change I bet. Thanks for the great comment.

To everyone: Thanks so much for your input, I really appreciate it.

8:15: Thanks for the response. With respect to undergrad grades, I checked with my school's career center about this because I thought it would be a bit misleading too. But they told me to just put the school I received my degree from and to put that GPA down because I received latin honors based on those grades. So if for some reason it becomes an issue, at least I can say that I did some due diligence and consulted with my school's career center and followed their advice.

Does biglaw ask for transcripts from all secondary institutions? That would actually be a bigger concern because my grades were like night and day. mid 2s at my first school, high 3s at my second.

8:42,

No, I don't think BigLaw frowns upon an AA degree at all. However, it is a course of instruction that was completed and a degree was conferred. It's therefore different than someone who spent a single year at a place, decided that they hated it, and transferred to another college for the final 3 (or 3+ years depending on how many credits were transferred). In the latter case, the transcript from the second college usually includes the credit/grades for the transferable courses and incorporates them into the final calculation and standing. (This, by the way, made some folks angry at my schools where people transferred in with super high grades from so-called "easier" schools, messing up class rankings in later years.) However, where someone receives an AA, that is the final and distinct degree for those classes and those grades don't usually get included on the transcript from the second college, let alone dumped into the GPA calculations from the second college.

In general, if you completed a course of study for which you received a degree, that degree should be included.

Has anyone ever heard of the bar giving people shit for arrests? I'd love to hear about that. It totally blows me away that any adverse collateral consequence could ever flow from an arrest. An arrest! It doesn't even have to be more probable than not that you've committed a crime to be arrested!

Seems beyond debate that K&S's new comp is at least in the top 5 in Atlanta, including any outlier salaries from PH or small firms. To me, the real question is what are the other big Atlanta-based firms going to do now, because they are all behind K&S. Does anyone predict that A&B, Sutherland, KilStock, PoGo, Troutman, Morris Manning, or any other firm will raise again?

I don't think any of them should. None of them can really afford to raise. In terms of PPP, K&S is the only one of the big Atlanta firms that can absorb this without a pretty devastating hit to the PPP. Alston probably will use this to make themselves look lifestyle.

Wow, Atlanta sucks. You can earn a lot more in Charlotte and Texas with the same number of billables. Now, if NYC would just raise to 175+, and some firms in DC, LA and Chicago follow, we'd finally see pay reflect the real differences in firms.

9:41 -- Are you a partner at one of those firms? They can't afford to raise --give me a break; their PPP is a big positive number, isn't it. A&B and Sutherland can't take some of their $850K PPP and give a little bit more to the associates? Huh?

Why should it matter if the firms' PPP is going to take a hit -- those firms need to pay the market, which K&S has just reset for 4-7 yr. associates. They can do it, but it might mean the partners have to earn less. So what. If the price of paper goes up, should these firms stop buying paper because their PPP will be impacted?

2:38
Yes theoretically they could pay more. But why would they? If they already have relatively low PPP maybe it makes sense to have a little stratification in the market. It is not always a sound economic decision to pay more because a competitor does. At some point someone loses every arms race. It might be that K&S just won this one. Of course PPP can always take a hit, but part of the reason people work so hard to make partner is because of the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Start diluting that goal and it is likely that you aren't going to get a lot of mid and upper level associates busting their asses trying to make partner.

9:41/4:17: Your "diluting that goal" argument is weak at best. The impact on a senior associate's indirect financial incentive (future PPP) is likely not singificant enough to de-motivate that senior associate from trying to make partner and largely offset by direct financial impact on the senior associate through increased compensation in years 5-7. If you guarantee that you will make me a partner, I'll reconsider. Until then, give me raise.

True, 4:35. The reality is that most senior associates don't make partner anymore -- the economics of leverage don't support it. So the only way to keep senior associates is to provide significant compensation packages (significantly higher than junior associates). Paying a 7th year $50,000 more than a 1st year isn't going to cut it because even if you're a superstar you probably won't make partner unless there is some need in the practice.

I doubt Alston raises. I also doubt that either 4:35 or 4:46 will walk away from their current jobs.

Last!

Sorry for posting after you 5:21.

It is interesting to compare the K&S and Sutherland approaches. Am I correct that a 6th year at K&S billing 1950 gets $185k whereas a 6th year at Sutherland gets $200k? It should also be noted that Sutherland doesn't have a cap on the number of pro bono hours counted toward billables. If that's the case, the K&S scale only pays off if you get to 2050 (a lot of hours).

Is the fixed bonus at K&S prorated at any point below 2050? What sort of discretionary bonus could one expect billing below 2050 at K&S as a senior associate?

A 6th year at K&S billing 2050 gets at least $212k whereas at 6th year at Sutherland billing 2050 gets $200k.

To me it seems that the K&S scale is under market for those under 2050 and over market for those over 2050. The difference in those hour requirements is significant (i.e., 2+ extra weeks of vacation). Sutherland easily could lay claim to the better system here.

Just so I understand.....

K&S actually increases compression in base salaries, still refuses to pay bonuses similar to other markets and people are actually lauding this?

I guess it boils down to the fact that the Atlanta market is so shitty that people are now willing to accept any raise.

A&B realizes (in those few moments when it's honest with itself) that it's never going to be a 1st tier firm on its own. It semi-secretly hopes to be acquired by a big California firm looking to expand eastward, and thus can't "afford" to do anything that would undermine its precious PPP and thus undermine its already questionable desirability as a target.

Second to last

10:19 --

"It [A&B] semi-secretly hopes to be acquired by a big California firm looking to expand eastward." I was under the impression that they hoped to be acquired by a Wall Street firm?

Agree with 7:07. People don't come to Atlanta expecting huge salaries and bonuses; they come because they want to have some life outside of work. The difference between 1950 and 2050 is huge. Plus, at Sutherland, part of the bonus portion is awarded between 1800 and 1950, whereas at K&S it looks like it's all or nothing.

11:51

A&B likes to imagine that, with its NY office, it already IS Wall St. material and a player in that segment (an absurd delusion). It's recent web-site overhaul attempts to give the impression that the NY office is a securities/finance operation (instead of the general international corporate firm it was pre-merger). While it's true that firm management has discarded and/or alienated many of the attorneys and clients of the international practice, it's much less the case that the securities/finance practice has the stature to thrive.

if you are a senior associate at K&S and bill under 2050 hours you will not get a "discretionary" bonus UNLESS you have 300-400 pro bono hours AND your team leader likes you, then you might get between $5-$10K.

As for the question about whether there is any fixed bonus under 2050 hours at K&S, the answer is NO. A

Finally, if you are killing yourself there and get up over 2400 you start working for free, since the bonus caps out at 2400. This apparently will be fixed in the new system, but if you are at that point this year you are SCREWED!!!

I think K&S did exactly what they needed to here, just enough to keep their senior associates from leaving and be able to recruit effectively.

They also built a system where the associates that bill a lot of hours make good money, and the associates that don't bill a lot of hours get paid a fair wage.

The scale could have been better, for sure. I would liked to have seen more of the $ thrown into bonuses thrown into higher base salaries instead. The firm has effectively managed to delay any meaningful salary increse until Feb. 2009, when these bonuses are actually paid. That is very frustrating.

The "range" system is also a huge hedge against an economic downturn. They say "most" associates will get the midpoint of the range, but they'll never disclose the distribution, so it's completely possible for them to pay eveyone the minimum and no one will know it. But I will give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

The bottom line is that this scale may not be ideal, but it is competitive, and that is all the firm was looking to do. Would a 7th year associate prefer to make 265 in DC or 237 in Atlanta (midpoint of K&S range)? I'd be pretty much indifferent. 237k is very good money in Atlanta.

It's my understanding that NO ONE in Charlotte pays $160. Has this changed? Can we get some confirmation here?

Actually, a 7th year, during their 7th year, would only make $232.5k assuming they get the mid range bonus. (Still good money for Atlanta)

7th year salary = $195k
6th year bonus = $37.5k (paid during 7th year)

You actually never get your 7th year bonus unless you make partner or counsel or just refuse to leave if you don't get promoted.

Quote: Atlanta's for suckers. K&S told a friend of mine at OCI that their Charlotte office is paying first years 160.

Posted by: Anonymous | October 26, 2007 09:28 PM

WAIT A SECOND. K&S doesn't even have a Charlotte office. What the hell are you smoking?

Yes, K&S opened a Charlotte office this summer.

You actually never get your 7th year bonus unless you make partner or counsel or just refuse to leave if you don't get promoted.

========================

Huh? Are you assuming that the firm kicks you out on Jan 1 of your 8th year if you don't make partner? That's absurd.

And yes, the 7th year bonus is not paid in your 7th year. It's paid in February of the next year. Not sure that's a terribly material point.

Who?

But according to the K&S website, there are no associates in the Charlotte office. So how can 1st years be paid $160? Are they just beginning to be recruited now?

And why would K&S pay $160 in Charlotte where the market is $145? Several firms pay $160 in Atlanta; K&S should raise to match there, not in Charlotte (where it's not necessary).

9:23 -- regarding ability to get 7th year bonus if you don't make partner/counsel, you are just plain wrong as it applies to K&S. Can't speak for other firms.

7:07 -- you say the 100 hour difference between Sutherland's and K&S's full bonus "is significant (i.e., 2+ extra weeks of vacation)."

Assume associates take 4 weeks of vacation a year (aspirational, in my experience). To bill 2050 hours over 48 weeks, you need to average 42.7 hours per week. To bill 1950 hours over 48 weeks, you need to average 40.6 hours per week. To me, an extra 2.1 hours per week does not seem significant, and for the extra $20-30K in bonus I'd strike that bargain in a heart beat.

What's the word on Powell Goldstein in ATL?

Inquiring Minds, yes K&S has a Charlotte office which is still pretty small but is rumored to be paying 160. Dewey Ballantine is also at 160 and there were rumors a while back that Mayer Brown went to 160. You have to think that Cadwalader and Dechert are there as well, but I can't confirm that, and frankly, I don't care.

"rumored to be paying 160" in the sense that someone earlier on this board said those words. But is there any confirmation?

10:21 -- the word is "sucks"

10:21: PoGo is an excellent firm full of exceptional lawyers, but it is going through a culture change at the moment. It is no longer "top tier" but it aspires to be again and is working aggressively to get there. No idea if it will work or not, so tread carefully.

10:18-

One could bill the same 42.7 hours per week at Sutherland, get over 6 weeks of vacation, and get paid $200k as a 6th year. At K&S that same associate would bill 42.7 hours per week with 2 fewer weeks of vacation for an extra $12k to $32k. Is it worth it? For many it is, but for many it is not.

Are Atlanta firms still hiring for associates starting next year?

10:40 -- how many associates at Sutherland do you know who take 6 weeks of vacation annually. That is a silly comment. Stop pretending that some BigLaw firms are really, truly lifestyle firms. That old yarn is just plain b.s. We all work really hard. If you want to take 6 weeks of vacation, fine, just don't expect to work for too long at any good law firm (big or small).

10:23 -- Mayer Brown and Cadwalader's web pages list Charlotte at $145. The others don't mention salaries on their sites.

Again, I'm not aware of any Charlotte offices paying $160 to first years. I've hear plenty of rumors, but I'd love to hear from someone who knows.

Plus, remember that to qualify for the Sutherland bonus you have to contribute 2400 total hours to the firm (billable plus non-billable). There is no similar requirement for K&S or other firms. Hard to imagine a Sutherland associate taking 4-6 weeks in vacation and hitting this 2400 hour requirement.

PoGo is hanging on by a thread. It's frankly amazing that the firm has stayed together this long. Most of the best clients and practice groups of yesteryear are long gone. The firm has consistently shrunk since about 2001 -- it was once over 330 lawyers and is now probably more like 270 -- and its PPP are woefully behind other Atlanta firms. They have not been able to hang on to clients or productive partners for a long time now.

yeah the extra 300 hours of non-billables would suck. if you bill over 1950 are you even allowed to count that in the extra 300 at SAB?

11:12.

Sutherland officially dropped the 2400 requirement, probably b/c it caused such a stir both online and among SAB associates who never knew about it.

btw,

a 6th year billing 1950:

@K&S: 185
@Sutherland: 200

What is the word on Morris Manning & Martin?

a 6th year billing 2050

@K&S: 212.5-232.5

@Sutherland: 200

I guess it depends on who you really are -- and probably not who you dream you want to be

And that same 6th year at A&B: $193.5 (base plus 7.5%). Pathetic.

And that same 6th year at A&B: $193.5 (base plus 7.5%). Pathetic.

Inquiring Minds: Latest Vault guide has Dewey paying the uncompressed $160 scale (160-290) in all US offices, including Charlotte.