BROOKLYN!

/Yankees to 27!

Another place - another train
Another bottle in the brain
Another girl - another fight
Another drive all night
Our manager's crazy - he always smokes dust
He's got his own room at the back of the bus
Tour around the world - you rock around the clock
Plane to hotel - girls on the jock
We're thrashing hotels like it's going out of style
Getting paid along the way cause it's worth your while
Four on the floor - Adrock's out the door
M.C.A.'s in the back because he's skeezin' with a whore
We got a safe in the trunk with money in a stack
With dice in the front and Brooklyn's in the back

I did not know Brooklyn had a law school. Actually I did, but let's be honest, it is equivalent to gettign a college degree from the University of Phoenix. You get what you pay for (or actually, you do not get even close to what you paid!!!)

Another place - another train
Another bottle in the brain
Another girl - another fight
Another drive all night
Our manager's crazy - he always smokes dust
He's got his own room at the back of the bus
Tour around the world - you rock around the clock
Plane to hotel - girls on the jock
We're thrashing hotels like it's going out of style
Getting paid along the way cause it's worth your while
Four on the floor - Adrock's out the door
M.C.A.'s in the back because he's skeezin' with a whore
We got a safe in the trunk with money in a stack
With dice in the front and Brooklyn's in the back

Brooklyn's top students are consistently smarter and harder-working than much of their competition. Say what you wish, but it's a solid school, in a great area, with a lot of potential. And no, I am not a Brooklyn alum -- I just have a lot of experience with a few who have genuinely impressed me through and through.

As with any Tier Two, however, you do get some rubes.

worse is the schmuck cited and pictured in the WSJ smear job. Guy claimed he graduated in the "top third" from Seton Hall, no less, and was bitter that he got a $50,000 a year job at an ambulance chaser firm. What a jack off. All he did was besmirch the fragile rep of those of us who actually studied at tier 2 schools and graduated in the top 5 and 10 percentiles. That guy, Scott Bullock, should be smacked. And I hear he lives on Avenue B. Loser.

I graduate from BLS recently - we could not pick up our caps and gowns unless we filled out a survey telling the school where we were going to be employed upon graduation. It was a physical quid pro quo - you had to submit the little piece of paper before you were handed the cap and gown. All of this went down the day before graduation, of course. Very professional.

They should be grilling people from Hofstra, Touro and New York Law School, not Brooklyn!

There is nothing wrong with BLS or any other real law school (there is a problem with some of the fake, non-ABA ones). But may I humbly suggest that someone taking 100K in debt to attend lawschool is not really a wise move for anyone. The school itself should warn people about it. Maybe you have to work for a few years, maybe you won't be able to go to lawschool, it is not a fair world, but 100K when your chances of getting a high paying job right away are not that good?

is that picture of the blonde Joan king? She's pretty damn hot

4:39

You are stupid. Your school made sure that they received the most accurate employment information as possible by conditioning graduation on providing employment stats and you complain.

Every other school does not mandate employment information and "extrapolates" that all those who didn't fill out a piece of paper are gainfully employed. Your school did what was necessary to get accurate information. Now, if they actually distribute this accurate information, they should be applauded.

Last, you sarcastically call this action "very professional." Well, they wouldn't have to bribe students into handing in employment stats if students were professional in the first place and volunteered this information.

Students are lazy with this information. This school is working hard to acquire it. That is, indeed, "very professional."

No, the pic is of Adriana Dominguez (Brooklyn Law student who did video for Playboy TV).

"Every other school does not mandate employment information and "extrapolates" that all those who didn't fill out a piece of paper are gainfully employed."

Actually, they assume that those who didn't fill out a piece of paper are employed at the same rate as those who did.

4:48 - believe me, that incident was one of many infantilizing interludes I had at that place. If you think duress is an appropriate and, more important, accurate way of getting employment stats, more power to you.

Anyone not living under a rock knows the job prospects coming out of BLS (or any other school not in the first tier) and while I sympathize for their financial plight those individuals should not be shocked with their current situation.

Brooklyn's definitely a legit school; it's not the equivalent of the University of Phoenix. The person who said that has no clue what he/she is talking about.

I didn't attend Brooklyn.

The problem isnt with Bklyn Law, but having dealt with King and her minions at the Career Center, I can't disagree that the WSJ article really hit the nail on the head. BLS misrepresented statistics, that is not a lie. The reality is that most BLS grads who aren't fortunate to be in the top 1/3rd or so of their class or have some outside connection to a specific practice area or 'hook', will end up doing personal injury/insurance defense/landlord-tenant/collections work OR temp doc review. I have done both (and currently in ID) so I have met my fair share of BLS grads from the classes of 2001 to the present (and I've worked at about 5 different law firms since 2001 so have seen the gamut). I can count several BLS classmates who are still on temp doc review world, because the alternatives (40-55K jobs at small law or shady/crap firms like Schwartzberg's office) are too horrible to contemplate.

The fact is, NYC is a glutted legal market. Bklyn pumps out at least 450-500 students EACH YEAR into this market, of which about 75-82% get admitted to practice upon bar passage and compete furiously for whatever open positions are left in the job market. Its a dog eat dog world in law-land, that's for sure. The ABA simply has to stop opening new law schools, thats the only solution to this supply & demand problem we are now facing.

no complaints here. top 25% of the class, biglaw summer job (multiple offers) - all at 160,000. not a urm.

Look at all this blame -- everyone pointing fingers at the schools, at the market, at the system. Why doesn't anyone blame the idiots who think taking out $150k in loans to attend a bad law school is a good idea? Everyone knows taking out loans on the hope of future reward is a risk. That's why it's a bad idea to borrow money to play the stock market or go to Vegas (is there a difference?). That there is a glut of lawyers in this country is no secret. Anyone with half a brain can deduce that there are not enough jobs for all the law school grads, and that therefore law school is a risk. Some took that risk, gambled with $150k they don't have, and lost. Boo hoo. Maybe next time they'll use the $150k to buy a clue.

If have these numbers wrong, please correct me:

BLS Tuition= 39,600

HLS Tuition= 39,325

Columbia = 42,024

Does Ms. King or the Admin. there and the other none t14 schools have any comment on that?

The problem is that a huge percentage of tier 2 grads enter under the unbelievable delusion that at 160,000 a year job is simply waiting for them upon graduation. They believe this because they have inferior intellect and think that because a law school accepted them, then they are a genius. Law school, particularly a tier 2 and below law school is a tool to use to obtain a goal, be it a BIGLAW job or some other desired objective. For anyone to blame a school for the grades they received while they were there is beyond pathetic. Yes its competetive at tier 2. However, if you study harder and smarter than others, you will do better than them and you will obtain those goals. To bitterly lash out at your school like this guy Scott Bullock did is pathetic and insults every girl and guy who worked their ass off in Tier 2, be it Brooklyn, Seton Hall, St. Johns, Rutgers, Cardozo, whatever. Yes its true that a small percentage of Tier 2 grads, particularly Seton Hall grads get BIGLAW jobs. But its in no way impossible.

If you can get to the top of BLS, you can write your own ticket in NYC, with the exception of maybe circuit clerkships and places like Wachtell and Cravath.

If you are median or lower, it will be much, much harder, unless you have some well-placed connections.

5:04: You'd be hard-pressed to find many BLS students who ever felt entitled to a BIGLAW gig. I see no problem, however, with operating on the presumption that one will get A job along the way. I knew several people at BLS (class of '04) who had NO job - not at the Bronx DA's office, not at some teeny firm in NJ, nowhere. These weren't people who ever had designs on Cravath.

Cravath seems to have 5 BLS graduates: two "senior attorneys," one "discovery attorney," and two regular (presumably partner-track) associates.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/09/27/leaving-the-law-to-become-a-electrician/?mod=hpp_asia_blogs

Wachtell has one BLS graduate (a 2004 summa grad).

The problem isnt that BLS grads are expecting the 160K/year jobs. I knew that I wasn;t going to get one based on my 1L fall semester grades. With two C+'s in 5 credit classes, I kissed biglaw goodbye but at LEAST I KNEW that it was out of the question. I think its foolish for classmates who forked over $100K to get the JD. Fortunately, I knew BLS or any non Top 14 school wasn't worth 6 figure debt, so I lived at home and worked part time to pay off as much interest on the loans,..came out with 65K debt..But even still, the people who technically "can't find a job" isn't because the market is bad or employers dont want Bklyn law grads, its because these jobs pay 40-55K and that simply is not enough for them to survive in NYC where housing costs are high and loan payments exceed 100K. My friends who are doing doc review are doing it out of financial necessity, not because they can't find the 40K/year jobs. Most of them have had multiple offers but all of them pay crap and they simply can't make ends meet with those salaries.

"Look at all this blame -- everyone pointing fingers at the schools, at the market, at the system. Why doesn't anyone blame the idiots who think taking out $150k in loans to attend a bad law school is a good idea?"

I think that's the idea of the WSJ article - that law school may be a poor economic decision. And while many incoming students may have unrealistic expections - epecially in a crowded market like NYC - I think it's reasonable for these law schools to be accurate about their employment statistics. Then a prospective student would have a better idea about whether the school is "bad."

The source notes that lower-tier grads don't seek out alternative options, but many of the banking or compliance jobs they could get don't require or really need a law degree. If you've paid the money at least use the degree or else it is truly a waste.

BLS to relevance!

I have limited experience with Brooklyn Law School. However, the only people who I know from there worked at S&C, Wachtell and Sidley, respecitively. Now, one interesting problem that they have faced is that they are looked down upon within their own firms. I remember one BLS friend who left S&C for a clerkship. The firm activiely discouraged her from doing this, implying that she should be more appreciative of them raising her above her natural condition. Perplexing at best.

5:23 -- I believe that the post you cite stated that students *enter* school believing that a 160 K a year job awaited. That you discounted such an opportunity only after obtaining grades buttressess the poster's point in two ways (1) that you, by way of example, expected a 160 K a year job upon entering school, only to discount it (based upon a single semester's grades, I add) and (2) that you are indicative of poor reading skills among tier 2 students.

Is anyone, anywhere, happy with his law school's career services office? Mine did nothing for me while I was in school, yet somehow has managed to do even less now that I'm out.

I've gotten a good job on my own, and hard work and perserverance are important, blah-blah-blah, but Shirley these people could do something to help.

Question:

Everyone on this post (and many of last week's as well) keeps saying the 150K+ in debt is not a good idea if you don't go to a T14 school. Is the assumption that finishing in the bottom half of Northwestern, GULC, Cornell, et al is not that big of a hurdle to getting a BIGLAW job that will allow you to pay it off in a reasonable time frame?

Geraldo Rivera is a BLS graduate...enough said.

5:33 asked exactly what I intended to ask. Career services must be absolutely phenomenal at some schools, because at mine, they were completely useless (I was top 5% in my class).

5:32: I did not enter BLS "Expecting" a 160K/job. I knew VERY WELL that the big firm jobs went to the top 10-15% of the class BEFORE I even enrolled. Did I think I would be in that percentage based on my own LSAT/UGPA? No. Did I work hard anyway just to see how close I would get? Yes. Did I go to law school ONLY to get the big salary? NO. Did I go to law school so I can practice law? YES. Do I still practice law, 5+ years later? YES.

My point is this - the disappointment is not the fact that the 160K jobs only go to the top of the class. Only a true moron enrolls at BLS w/ the "expectation" that a 160K job awaits them post-grad. The disappoinment is reading the statistics which claim the median salary of all BLS grads is $112K or whatever ridiculous figure is posted. The reality is: top 15% get 6 figure salaries. Everyone else scrapes by for the 40-65K/year jobs that are outside Biglaw, Unless you fall into an exception such as an EE UG degree (patent bar) or have some other "hook" to get you into mid-law right away (ie top 35% grad getting into Wilson Elser at 75K starting,etc).

Why is Wilson Elser ALWAYS looking for new associates, expect BIGLAW hours, and yet pay so low? They're in the Amlaw 200 right? And they still can't break 6 figures?

I believe that Stephen Jay Gould said that absolutism has little currency in complex systems. That seems true in the context of a decidedly complex NYC legal market. Is there some truth to the WSJ article? Yes, people make uninformed decisions to invest in law school without contemplating their actual odds and evaluating their options. (This is also true of some people attending tier 1 law schools.) Beware, however, of misinterpreting that conclusion.

Is every Tier 2 student making a foolish investment? No. Some people do wonderfully as people and professionals due, in significant part, to their tier 2 legal education and the advantages that the associated skills impart.

On a tangential point, the use of "Tier 2" as a perjorative seems very unsavory to me. I realize I should steel myself for the worst of human nature on an internet message board but it still seems like a juvenile and unpleasant rhetorical tactic. It just seems like it would be funnier if you pointed to someone's objective "dumbassery" without cloaking the whole thing in crass elitism.

Wilson Elser pays low compared to other firms w. over 800 attorneys because their clients are mostly insurance companies. Insurance companies pay crap. Their top pay for partners who do slip and fall defense is around $180-250/hr if at that. Typical billing rates are $100-175/hr for associates doing GL defense (which is WEMED's bread and butter). Compare that to biglaw clients who charge upwards of $300-800/hr for partners and $200-400/hr for associates and you can see why Wilson Elser starting salaries are only $70-80K whereas big law starts at over $150K.

lionel hutz is a BLS grad....

WEMED goes through associates faster than dirty laundry on spin cycle. The associates there work biglaw hours for small-law pay, plus there are several partners who are a complete nightmare to work for (wont mention which ones but I've heard horror stories). The majority of associates burn out w/in 2-3 years and their bonus is pathetic ($250-500 at 1 point) which is why they are always looking for new blood. Its just another sweatshop.

The fact of the matter is that schools do hand out statistics and lists of firms that recruit on campus, but as we all know, statistics can say whatever you want them to say, and these lists do misrepresent how many people work at these places.

People who go to law school all need to hear "the talk". Granted, I got "the talk", and it didn't help my case. That said, I'm making 6 figures as a second year after working for a decent amount at a little firm my first year. That also said, law school debt sucks balls.

I had no idea, entering law school, which jobs went to which graduates (top 20 school). I went to school 'cause I wanted to, and put in as little effort as necessary to get by, eventually graduating in the top 25% of the class. Ony my second biglaw job now, both of which have been at firms that timely moved to the $160k pay scale.

My question is this: Is it really that damn hard to get these jobs? If I can do it (trust me, I am a schlepper), can't you, too?

If so, please STFU and stop posting.

"Is the assumption that finishing in the bottom half of Northwestern, GULC, Cornell, et al is not that big of a hurdle to getting a BIGLAW job that will allow you to pay it off in a reasonable time frame?"

As for Cornell, finishing in the bottom 50% is not an impediment to a Biglaw job. Not necessarily a top 20 Vault firm, but for most you will get a job paying 160K at another less prestigious Biglaw firm.

I'm a BLS student and I honestly believe it was absolutely the worst school I could have chosen to attend out of the many that accepted me. I will regret it - and be paying it off - for the rest of my life.

STFU?

Most Tier II grads who make it to BigLaw get there because of their Tier II place in the world, not despite it.

"Career services must be absolutely phenomenal at some schools, because at mine, they were completely useless (I was top 5% in my class)."

I think career services sucks everywhere -- undergrad, grad, good school, bad school. Universally, all they do is secure an interviewing space for the companies/firms who want to come to campus. It was the same when I was in undergrad -- all my career services office did was help people get consulting/ibanking jobs, because those were the only companies who came to campus. I'm all for people taking responsibility for their own futures, but I find it absurd (especially at schools with huge endowments and lots of prestige) that there is no investment in the career services office. Would it really be so hard to hire some smart, motivated people who have a clue?

When are ya'll gonna do a thread about the Cumberland School of Law? We are a rising non-top tier school.

what is URM???

639 - under-represented minority

I went to Cornell and pretty much everyone I knew, including many in the bottom 50%, ended up with BigLaw jobs if that's what they wanted/financially needed (admittedly, a fair amount at Cornell don't want/need them). I do know two students who wanted NYC BigLaw jobs but weren't able to get them. I don't really know the reasons, since they were generally well-liked among their peers, but the general rule from Cornell is that you're fine in the bottom 50% as long as you have some flexibility in the BigLaw firms you apply to, i.e., V10 are probably out unless exceptional circumstances, V50+ are safer shots. Part of this may be helped by the fact that Cornell is pretty small, so it is harder to fall between the cracks.

I personally wasn't much above the 50% mark coming out of 1L year but received multiple BigLaw offers from high-ranking Vault firms with stated grade cutoffs that were higher than mine (and no, am not an URM or science major and didn't have personal connections). Knowing that my grades were average, I did seek and receive help from career services in selecting an appropriate range of firms prior to submitting my OCI bids, i.e., did not waste a bid on Wachtell, S&C or Cravath, but did include other V25 firms where I ended up receiving offers. Although I have lots of student loans to pay off, I felt that Cornell was a pretty safe risk and my opinion hasn't changed post-graduation. Not to mention, the relatively low cost of living in Ithaca, other than the heating bills, helped contain costs over those 3 years.

5:36 - I know some people who finished in the bottom fifth of my class at Northwestern, and almost all of them had offers from Biglaw. The ones who didn't lacked basic social skills.

6:47 - The same is true for Cornell, especially if you're in the NYC market. Anyone from Cornell can get a job there.

If you're interested in DC, Chicago or West Coast firms, you'd better be a little higher up on the food chain. Cornell doesn't carry the same weight outside of the City.

6:47a - The booze bill will set you back in Ithaca though...

I graduated from BLS with approximately 50k in debt, a gig with a top firm, and a federal clerkship. Those of us that work hard & do well have opportunities equal to those of T14 students.

I think that the reason a lot of T14 students pick on T2 students (online and anonymously, of course) is because they have to justify to themselves why they racked up $150k in debt.

If you were actually smart you would not have gone to BLS. BLS is a joke. Why would I hire from there when there are so many better places within a few miles?

I wasn't exceptional at Northwestern and had no problem getting a NY big firm job. NU doesn't rank but I'd say I was at the bottom of the top half. Everyone I knew had a big firm job, especially those that wanted to stay in Chicago. Sidley, Skadden, Kirkland, Latham, Winston, Jenner took people in the bottom 20%. The only people I knew who didn't have big firm jobs were people who admitedly "don't interview well." Even those people had a lot better luck interviewing as 3Ls after spending their 2L summer working for a professor, doing public interest or working for a small firm. That being said career services left a lot to be desired. They definitely facilitated the interview process for firms that did OCI but didn't do much (e.g. government or public interest job placement) otherwise. The profs. did an excellent job helping the law review kids get great clerkships and the public interest organizations helped people place in public service. My friends at GULC with similar grades also had no problems getting big firm jobs. I truly think at bottom of top 14 schools (if that's the standard we're using), most everyone can get a big firm job if that's what they want if they interview well. Not that getting big law jobs is what makes a scool a "good" or non-TTT school.

There has been so much press about the lack of opportunities from these lower tiered schools. One would think that the number of applications would drop significantly. Not the case.

They are making their beds. Let them lie in them. No pity. I hope BLS raises tuition.

"If you were actually smart you would not have gone to BLS. BLS is a joke. Why would I hire from there when there are so many better places within a few miles?"

Because the top kids from BLS can kick your ass every which way.

Yeah, to get into trouble at a top school you would need to be bottom half and have terrible social skills. Had a buddy who was literally dead last in our class and he got multiple offers at 160 firms. Not the top firms, mind you, but he wasn't reduced to doing personal injury or going to Atlanta or anything.

6:59-

I'm not a BLS or Tier 2 basher, but I think you're missing the point: the fact that you worked hard and did well at a Tier 2 school makes you the exception and not the rule. That entitles you to smugness ex-post.

However, you're either clairvoyant or wildly overqualified if you chose to go to Tier 2 expecting everything you got because the odds are greatly against Tier 2 students AS A GENERAL MATTER.

And for the record, I'm not picking on you because I "racked up 150K in debt."

I'm disturbed by all the one sided arguments here especially from people who do not even know where BLS is or that it is a private law school and have a good reputation in NYC.

I used to work in the career office of a top 5 business school and I can tell you everyone there also whined about the career office...EVERYONE. It is in people's nature to blame others when things don't go their way.

I love BLS' location - it is located in Brooklyn Heights - right next to most of the courts in NY (Federal NY Eastern District etc...) and I personally know a few people clerking for federal judges.

I know I'm not guaranteed a top paying job when I come out but I'm pretty sure I'll be in decent shape. A lot of people that I know came in with scholarships so I'm not sure why people are whining about 150K loans. VERY few people at BLS need to pay full tuition (for 1L anyway).

I don't understand why people who do not even know where Brooklyn is feels like it is their right to insult the school and its students. I met quite a few classmates who turned down higher ranked school to come here. I personally turned down BU, BC, and Fordham to accept my full scholarship and an apartment in a new school housing apartment building.

I'm shooting for top 10% but I know top 15-25% will give me a great shot at most firms...not necessarily v10 but firms that will pay me more than what most of the BLS bashers make.

to BLS 1L @ 7:35:
You're a current 1L and its only October...very early into your FIRST semester at law school. As a disclaimer: You have no idea how well you will do, or even how to do well on your exams.

I'd like to see you re-post months from now after you know whether you're secure in the top quarter of your class. While I hope you the best, I hope even more that you remember your own post next year if you end up in the bottom half of the class w/o a summer associate offer...

7:30-

I went to a Tier 2 b/c they gave me money. I couldn't expect to be at the top, but I knew that I wasn't shooting myself in the foot by racking up too much debt, either.

If you work hard at BLS, you're likely to do well. The people that graduate in the bottom 1/2 tend to be people that didn't work hard or apply themselves. That gives plenty of reason to condemn the individual students from BLS that a) probably didn't do well in undergrad, b) probably didn't do well on the LSAT, and c) didn't do well in law school. These students obviously aren't that smart or didn't apply themselves. They have nobody to blame for their predicament but themselves.

However, those aren't good reasons to bash the school itself. My point is that if you do what you need to do, BLS will provide you with plenty of opportunities. Individuals should be held accountable for their own rate rather than jumping on a soapbox and screaming "BLS DOESN'T GIVE ME ANY OPPORTUNITIES!"

6:57, you're not kidding: although the individual cost of food/drinks was pretty low, those nights could sure add up. (But there were fun places to eat and drink in Ithaca -- and where else are you going to hang out when it's that cold outside? The trick is to stay indoors for as long as they'll let you, i.e., until the bars kick you out at which point the snow cushions the fall of those staggering home.)

ps. Cornell does place well in California (SF, SV, LA), although it helps a lot to be from there or to have a reason to settle there (gf/bf/etc). Also places well in Chicago and Texas, but again, you need a legit connection (esp. for Texas).

All of the "Tier 1" grads are just jealous. Have any of you looked at the hard facts? All of the major firms other than Cravath have at least a dozen and in many cases several dozen Brooklyn grads in their ranks, and several partners. If you want to understand your lack of importance, take a look at the relative percentage of BLS grads at the top firms compared to your touted alma mater -- BLS has as many lawyers at top NYC firms than any school outside of NYC other than the usual suspects (HLS, Yale, etc.), and in many cases more than any NYC school other than NYU and Columbia.

And, for all you asswipes that question one's motivation to select such a school, many of us did not rack up $150K in debt and laboriously seek out biglaw jobs out of necessity. We went to BLS with scholarships in hand knowing we could take whichever route best suited us 3 years later, and had just as many offers as you upon graduation. Yes, there are too many students at BLS, but the world needs ambulance chasers and document reviewers too. After all, if not for the annual flood of new graduates needing jobs, your manicured figures would be reviewing those documents.

And, to be clear, document reviewers at my firm typically earn $120K to start, and many make more than those Harvard grad junior associates that are passing along the work

If I don't do well enough and lose my scholarship (I have to stay in the top 40%) I'm just going to forget about law school. Sometimes you need to know when to call it quits. I'm not interested in going into massive debt for school

I have a 660 on the GMAT (took it once cold) so I might consider a MBA. I wanted to do a joint program but things didn't work out the way I wanted it to.

Thanks for the update, 7:44. What was your PSAT in 11th grade? I got a 1420. I'm considering medical school if my JD doesn't work out, and I'm confident that I can get at least a 35 on the MCAT.

I did my research before coming into BLS. I checked out most of the top law firms in the city to see how many BLS grads they have. BLS consistently ranks 3rd or 4th behind NYU, Columbia and Fordham in terms of placement. Certainly a lot more than other so called tier 1 schools.

I don't know what else people expect. Law school is what you make out of it. The school got some great professors, plenty of courts and judges around, lots of alumni, great location, a new student housing apartment building, and decent placement into the top firms in NYC.

BLS is not top 20 law schools material but it is everything I thought it would be. I'm happy and realistic about my chances. If somehow I end up with a clerkship or a biglaw offer, even better especially with a low debt load.

Brooklyn and Cardozo are both solid NY tier 2 schools that generally do well in BigLaw NY. Everyone who works in BigLaw NY (other than the v5 firms) hold students at those schools in pretty high regard. The top students are definitely solid, well-rounded future lawyers for Biglaw. But even still, the schools do not have the "crappy/toilet" reputations that you non-NYC t14 posters keep spewing on this blog.

"Brooklyn and Cardozo are both solid NY tier 2 schools that generally do well in BigLaw NY. Everyone who works in BigLaw NY (other than the v5 firms) hold students at those schools in pretty high regard. The top students are definitely solid, well-rounded future lawyers for Biglaw. But even still, the schools do not have the "crappy/toilet" reputations that you non-NYC t14 posters keep spewing on this blog."

My friends at both schools were telling me that. Their rankings do not reflect the quality of their students. Their incoming LSAT scores are comparable to schools rank in the tier 1 30s range. I find it amazing all these people are so willing to make fun of the school despite the fact that they know close to nothing about the school except this notion of tiers and rankings. Most other rankings, like Leiter's ranking, place Cardozo and Brooklyn in the top 50 law schools.

I'm applying to both school and everyone tells me they pretty much equal in terms of reputation and opportunities in NYC. BLS is more practical whereas Cardozo is supposedly more theoretical.

Hey BLS 1L: your enthusiasm and optimism are really admirable. Truly... Really. I felt like you did in October of my 1L year. All that "go BLS,go!!" cheerleading crap..Let's just wait and see how you feel and what you think when you reach 3L, or even better, after you sit for the NY bar exam in 2010...and when you are sitting amongst 450 classmates who are all competing against you for the same jobs..

Any debate over the relative merits of t1 and t2 students for biglaw jobs is preposterous: both make excellent doc review slaves. Its just that biglaw is only looking at the top 10-15% of students at t2 schools, and it can be a dogfight to get in there. Don't think that some of your 1L classmates aren't methodically studying and outlining right now as you post.

"Hey BLS 1L: your enthusiasm and optimism are really admirable. Truly... Really. I felt like you did in October of my 1L year. All that "go BLS,go!!" cheerleading crap..Let's just wait and see how you feel and what you think when you reach 3L, or even better, after you sit for the NY bar exam in 2010...and when you are sitting amongst 450 classmates who are all competing against you for the same jobs.."

I understand where you are coming from but you graduated six years ago. I'm sure a lot has changed since then.

Well I'll let everyone know how I feel after one year here but so far, the school been great. It is nowhere near the toilet or TTT that idiots (who were probably denied admission to BLS - any respectable top law school student won't be insulting a school that guys in their Associate class went to) on this site make it out to be.

BLS 1L -- You note in your 7:53 pm post: "BLS consistently ranks 3rd or 4th behind NYU, Columbia and Fordham in terms of placement. Certainly a lot more than other so called tier 1 schools."

Not sure why you felt the need to take the unsubstantiated swipe at other "so called tier 1 schools." Note that certain other tier 1 schools are quite small (thus making their placement *anywhere* quite small compared to large schools like NYU, Columbia and BLS). Also, many students at certain tier 1 schools are from all over the country and have more opportunities in other cities outside NY. Many BLS students are from NY and/or have every intention of staying in NY.

Otherwise, I do believe that the so called tier 2 schools in NYC are good schools, have many great students, have good reputations at firms in NYC, and can place well in NYC, especially in this market with large firms hiring like crazy. This whole "tier" debate is tired.

BLS 1L:

You just started school a few weeks ago. Get back to studying or your life will be hell.

Second that, 8:29. Best of luck to you, BLS 1, but know that t2 students on full rides do sometimes lose their scholarships; seriously, a fair # of t2 1L's are aware of the stakes of cracking or not cracking that top 10%.

Actually not much has changed. I worked for a fed judge and a mid sized law firm. The Judicial Clerkship clinic still offers the same program now in 2007 as it did back in 2000 when I first signed up for it (work study credit) and the scary part is that salaries have not kept pace with the rate of inflation. My first law firm job paid peanuts, despite the fact that I had a decent resume (summer DOJ and fed judge internship plus part time law clerk at mid sized commercial lit firm). When I looked at Emplawyernet and the NYLJ Classifieds section a few months ago, I saw the salaries listed for those firms and they are still the same.
The firm I worked at my 2L summer paid law clerks $15/hour. They still offer that same salary, in 2007, as it did in 1998 and 1999. The fact that in 5 years, law grads will still be competing for jobs paying 40-50K is scary, because 40K may have been decent wages in 1997/1998, but not in 2008/2009! Plus the fact that BLS, Cardozo and all these NYC schools are raising tuition to more than 35-40K, its really a crisis in the making...There is no doubt that the students coming out of grad school today carry more debt than ever before....*shudders*

"Not sure why you felt the need to take the unsubstantiated swipe at other "so called tier 1 schools." Note that certain other tier 1 schools are quite small (thus making their placement *anywhere* quite small compared to large schools like NYU, Columbia and BLS). Also, many students at certain tier 1 schools are from all over the country and have more opportunities in other cities outside NY. Many BLS students are from NY and/or have every intention of staying in NY."

I understand that. I was making a point that tier 1 is a lot like tier 2. Rankings don't mean anything. The whole concept that a school ranked 49 is 11 spots better than a school ranked 60 is ridiculous and for people to seize upon the rankings to insult others is well... pathetic.

You signed the application for law school.

You signed the application for the loan.

You took the same exam as everybody else.

However "unfair" the scale, you have been measured, just like everybody else.

Stop whinning.

No one one owes you a job, or even an opportunity for one.

I like Ramen.

oodles of noodles

5:33

W&M has a great career services office...most of the people who try and have decent grades can get a biglaw job in DC or NYC...

i wonder if L2L was as idealistic as BLS1L last year?

Or spent as much time posting when s/he should have been studying?

9:53 is lying. W&M cannot get you into biglaw DC and especially not NYC

GENERALLY (emphasized so I don't get murdered on this board) going to a lesser school because you received a scholarship is quite a risk. Yes, you may save 150K in the short term, but if you don't fare well at the lesser school, your earning capacity is probably considerably lower. Over the course of a career, the $ you saved will pale in comparison because of the opportunity costs.

But hey, if you want to attend a BLS (incidentally the people from BLS I have encountered were all capable) for free and feel confident about making the Law Review, then maybe it's worth it.

7:43 - Man, I could go for some Hot Truck right now!

10:31--you are just wrong...here's a sampling of the NY firms interviewing W&M students this year:

Baker & McKenzie
Cadwalader
Davis Polk
Dewey & LeBoeuf
Day Pitney
Fitzpatrick Cella
Freshfields
Fried Frank
Allen & Overy
Chadbourne & Parke
Clifford Chance
Cravath
Curtis Mallet-Prevost
Edwards Angell
Fragomen Del Rey
Fulbright & Jaworski
Goodwin Procter
Hunton & Williams
Hughes Hubbard
Mayer Brown
McCarter & English
Milbank Tweed
Morgan Lewis
Paul Hastings
Paul Weiss
Pillsbury Winthrop
Schulte
Seward & Kissel
Shearman & Sterling
Sheppard Mullin
Skadden
Thacher Proffitt & Wood
Weil Gotschal
Willikie
Wilson Sonsini

Virtually every DC BIGLAW shop interviews on-campus.

9:53/11:28,
first, define "decent grades". Are you referring to top quarter or more specifically, top 10% + law review? I bet the latter has a chance at DC Biglaw, but not the former.

Also, you mentioned biglaw NYC but that is simply not the case. If that is indeed W&M's on campus OCI list, those shops are exclusively for the DC offices and NOT the NYC office. It is not equally easy with "decent grades" from W&M law to snag a biglaw NYC offer.

Lastly, having "decent grades" has relatively nothing to do with how good career services is at W&M or any school. Anybody with good grades will get interviews on campus. The point of career services should be to serve the entire student body, not just the cream of the crop. W&M's OCI is no better than any other school if it caters only to the top 10%

one last thing,
i highly highly doubt W&M is as competitive for DC Biglaw as Gtown or GW which are right there in the city. Not to mention UVA, which is in a different league of its own (ranked #9 is it, on US News?). With those 3 schools alone, I just don't see how W&M (located in Williamsburg, VA, 2 1/2 to 3 hours away from DC) would be an attractive spot to recruit legal talent.

yes that is the list and yes those are for the nyc offices.

the point was that if you have decent grades (top third) you can get into nyc biglaw. i have several offers (top third). obviously you have to have some personality and something else on your resume (prior work experience) because i'm not trying to claim W&M is a t10 or t14 or whatever school. i'm also not claiming it is "equally easy" to get an offer being in the top third at w&m compared to top 90% at UVA.

for students with decent grades, some personality, and something else on their resume, NYC biglaw is not simply a pipedream. those students who apply themselves to the job hunt and go through the interview ringer will end up with some good options.

W&M's career services people bring in all types of employers for all types of students. the original poster to whom i was replying asked "if anyone was happy with his law school's career services office"...and because the office at W&M has been incredibly helpful to me chase the dream of being a fungible billing unit, i gave them their props.

well over 90% of W&M students graduate with a job in hand. i think that speaks volumes for the career services office.

to "one last thing"--

i didn't concentrate my job search in dc...but the list of firms doing oci is pretty impressive. i would venture to say that at least 90% of the firms in the $160k range interview on campus...i'm not wasting my time making a list because i didn't look there for jobs and therefore don't already have it on my computer...but it is a nice list nonetheless.

the fact that those biglaw shops are willing to venture the 2 1/2 hrs does speak to the fact that those firms think it is a worthwhile place to "recruit legal talent."

I meant, getting decent grades at W&M doesn't give you an "equally easy" chance at biglaw NYC as it "may" for biglaw DC. Even if what you say is true, you are the exception, not the rule. But I doubt that top third at W&M can get a biglaw NYC job as easily as it can get a biglaw DC job.

What happens to the folks that went straight through and had no prior work experience but made top third w/o a journal? Do they need to be a URM to get a biglaw offer?

do you think that the "90% of W&M students graduate with a job in hand" really represents the entire class, or as the original post is about - is a misrepresentation by the career services w/o divulging how many of their graduating students actually participated in the survey. 90% of 30 replies from graduating students isn't that great a statistic.

the conversation about biglaw dc and biglaw nyc vis-a-vis a W&M student is really irrelevant...the point is the career services office opens the door. its my job to stick my foot in and keep it there. certainly my experience is anecdotal, but there are biglaw nyc opportunities if you don't spend your entire 1L year posting to this blog.

perhaps they inflate the statistics, i don't know for sure, but i think they have a similar policy where you have to fill out the form to get your diploma, like at brooklyn. it certainly would be very disingenuous and disheartening if i found out those numbers were false because those numbers were part of the reason why i chose W&M. however, knowing the type of people who run the career services office, i would be very surprised to find this type of dishonesty.

don't know about affirmative action either, because i'm an over-represented majority.

i'd have to admit, however, that it would be harder, but not impossible, to get a nyc biglaw job if you are a 22 y/o top third-er without anything else to pad your res.

Dammit, 11:15, now you've got me hungry (with nothing in my vicinity that could come close to filling the craving). Nothing better than hot truck on a late fall or winter night.

Actually, I'd even go for Collegetown now. But not D.P. Dough. That place invariably made me sick.

I'll trade bar bills with anyone at Cornell. Last I checked bars in Ithaca close at 1. (!!) Drinks are half what they cost in the city.
I know there's nothing else to do upstate, but you can spend two weeks at the chappy for the cost of a good night in NYC.
Please ...

what a lying sack. contract attorney work sucks major balls. nice attempt at spinning though.

I have mixed feelings re: Brooklyn. On the one hand, I hear their biglaw cutoff is top 25%, which is much better than Loyola's.

Regardless, all students are asking for is disclosure. If we could just see a list of Brooklyn's 2007 graduates, with their starting salaries (and names blanked out of course), we would have all we need to know.