FIRST!

that's some bullsh*t if you ask me. i'd definitely be pissed if i was an associate at F&R

To be the first to post in a legal blog says something. Not exactly what it says but it says something.

ABANDON SHIP!!!!!

"If you have any questions about these changes, feel free to raise them with me or with any member of the Management Committee."

i'd have some questions all right....

this is pretty second rate compared to the big gp shops

Yep...

if you have trouble reading this memo then you probably shouldn't be a lawyer.

Associates at F&R will be compensated at least equal with their peers. Nuff said.

10:55 = F&R partner

I like how they capitalize "the Firm."

"under the new compensation plan, an attorney of any class year who has billed 2000 hours will achieve compensation that is comparable to the highest level presently being paid in the marketplace for a 2000 hour contribution by an attorney of their level."

how else can it be spelled out?

why are people assuming there is no bonus on top of this? looks like they're just withholding market until 2000 hours. that doesn't mean first and second years will never get a bonus.

"Pretty sh**ty for patent prosecutors. Everyone is pretty pissed off about this"

The idea of patent prosecutors making the same as litigators is ludicrous when they work hundreds fewer hours, bring in less money, and do a job that doesn't even require a JD. Whoever sent this to Lat has nothign to complain about.

Wow - complete nonsense. Listen fools, compensation should be: SALARY + BONUS. Salary should be a guaranteed sum, and bonus discretionary/dependent on some benchmarks. Can you imagine explaining this nonsense to potential hires or on-campus? I would cut the guys short and ask them to direct me to Cravath's booth.

in response to 11:04

That's bullshit. Patent prosecutors work just as hard as, if not harder, than litigators. It's just that it's harder to bill out some of the work.

The job can NOT be done by someone without a J.D., because only a J.D. can draft a patent in a manner that will make it useful in litigation.

Seriously, they just raised billable hours to 2000. Big whoop. F&R associates, welcome to the world of law.

I do agree with 11:04 though (re: patent prosecutors). Prosecution is a dead art.

This takes away the bonus at 2000 hours (somewhere between 7-15K, depending on class year). It also withholds a huge portion until the end of the year (time value of money).

Additionally, it was done Friday night before Thanksgiving. Real classy.

So basically, Fish & Richardson has decided it's going to be a Texas-based firm now? This deferred compensation nonsense is how the Texas-based shops pretend that they're competitive with Skadden, Gibson and Weil's offices there.

11:04--From what I'm told, patent prosecutors have generally a lower ratio of hours billed to hours worked, due to the nature of the work. They bring in steady income to a firm and have to pass a separate bar, so you can't say that the idea that they make the same as litigators completely ludicrous--not at the associate level at least--because they'll always me making the firm money and they're harder to come by.

I'm interested in what other IP shops are doing. (Hopefully nothing like F&R.)

This year, oh Lord, I'm thankful that I'm not at F&R!!

Sucks to be an F&R associate!!!

all the bonus posts on this blog are boring

What are the other IP shops doing on bonus/salary vs hours? Finnegan? Etc?

This does seem to be directed to differentiating the compensation for prosecutors and litigators. This balance is a difficult one for IP boutiques to deal with, but the fact of the matter is that prosecutors aren't as profitable as litigators. It's no moral failing on their part, it's just the reality of the situation.

Bad idea to circulate such a long and complicated memo though.

"The job can NOT be done by someone without a J.D., because only a J.D. can draft a patent in a manner that will make it useful in litigation"

1. To be a licensed "patent agent" (and thus allowed by the PTO to do patent prosecution), you don't need a JD. Just some science training and the ability to pass an open-book multiple choice test.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html#attorneys

2. 90+% of patents are never used in litigation. There are mountains of academic literature about how most patents just sit on people's walls as trophies.

3. A patent prosecutor with a JD probably knows a little more about prosecuting patents than one without a JD, but I was still correct to describe the prosecution as "a job that doesn't even require a JD."

4. Most JDs are morons too. At least the litigators bring in money and work harder.

11:10 - All this does is say that associates will remain in good standing at 1900 - although with slightly lower pay. They still retain bonuses at 2100 and 2200, as well as a merit based bonus. Basically you can find an hours/salary program that meets your needs. But hey, at Cravath at least you'll have your "SALARY + BONUS" - of course, you might want to figure out $$ per hour before you get too excited.

**B/tw I have no affiliation w/ F&R, I just take the time to think b/4 I say something

Obviously 1104 has never (1). Read a patent. (2) Prosecuted a patent. (3) Taken the "open-book" patent bar that has a pass rate around 50% AND is actually "CLOSED BOOK". (4) Litigated a case re a patent.

Your 2. comment on the 90+% shows how stupid you are in the patent area. First, even if 90+% aren't used, companies still find value in the other 10% and PAY for this work. Moreover, a patent (or atleast a one claim from a patent) is used in every patent infringement case.

1104 you are the moron

11:11, many people might thinkn prosecution is "dead," or that it doens't matter, but i think NTP would disagree as it counts its many Blackberry millions. i think Microsoft will disagree as it cuts a $160 million check to z4.

those who cheap out on prosecution are the definition of "penny wise, pound foolish."

and it's pretty obvious that 11:04 has never drafted a patent in his life. having done both prosecution and litigation, i can say that lit is a breeze, especially when it comes to billing time.

Stupid idea to circulate this memo. Very bad PR move after Fish was seen as an IP compensation leader when it was among the first firms in the country to match the last salary raise.

I just wonder why F&R would send out a "Dicking over All Associates" memo a the end of November? I mean at least have the common sense to wait until December 1.

Or did they get the last sap to accept for there SA program and pull the bait in switch?

Maybe they looked at there candidate pool and knew they really didn't have any competition?

Saw the market reaction and new they needed to shed some new hire meat and announced hoping to get some SA candidates to drop out before accepting?

Lot of interesting questions as to why a firm would stand up and say "We are bottom Tier and Proud" a week and a half before acceptance date.

"there SA program"
"bait in switch"
"there candidate pool"
"new they needed to "

11:39 is too stupid to be a real person.

Excellent point by 11.39. The timing is curious. Why would you announce a negative change to your salary scheme when other firms are announcing the biggest bonuses since 2000 or 2001?

Who are the biggest IP shops in the US? And how does their compensation relate to F&R?

Huh?

Fish is still paying "merit bonuses" and additional bonuses at 2100 and 2200 hours, but they aren't saying how much. But total compensation at Fish won't be close to what IP associates at Kirkland, Weil, Milbank, Proskauer, Willkie, White & Case, Paul Hastings, etc. will be making.

Who are the biggest IP Shops and how does there compensation relate to F&R? I am curious to see how others feel/perceive the difference in prosecutors and litigators.

11:46--I think Finnegan is the only real peer to Fish. Other IP shops like Kenyan, Knobbe, and Townsend are big, but not as big.

I think all but Knobbe are at the 160k scale. I don't know about bonuses.

"11:39 - Stupid idea to circulate this memo. Very bad PR move after Fish was seen as an IP compensation leader when it was among the first firms in the country to match the last salary raise."

They realized they F*cked up then, and they will realize in the next couple of days that they F*cked up again releasing this asinine memo.

1900 hours in patent prosecution is equal to about 2050 hours in patent litigation.

I'm not saying patent litigators don't work hard. I'm saying that in prosecution there are a lot more administrative tasks and budget caps that eat your billables and drive the billable hours/total hours worked ratio down. And, hour for hour, the prosecutor is on average doing more writing & technical analysis, whereas the litigator is doing more reviewing & legal research. Which activity is easier to sit and crank out 2 hours on?

1149 - What does Knobbe pay?

The day of reckoning may be coming for the remaining IP boutiques. First, the compensation disparity between boutiques and IP groups in big firms has been relatively small over last 5 or 6 years, but the bonuses this year are going to make the difference keenly felt.

Second, the other thing that is different from the environment back in 2001 is that the big firms are actively seeking to expand their IP litigation practices. Cravath was lead counsel in the Plavix case, Cadwalader just started a patent group, and firms like K&E, WGM, Milbank Tweed, etc. have very strong practices.

If other IP firms follow Fish & Richardson's lead on salary, law students and laterals will be heading in the other direction quickly, I suspect.

11:55--$145k

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_results.asp

I also think there is heavy compensation compression for upper-level associates.

Boo hoo, you have to bill 2,000 hours to make $160k. Try living in my shoes for a day.

literacy – sorry for my lack of attention to detail. Contemplating how to spend that extra 35k this year is no easy task. I do envy you though, not having to deal with such things and getting the non-monetary compensation of grammar instruction at F&R. F&R to free grammar lessons.

Looks like they're making their associates walk the plank, matey.

11:55 & 12:00 - Knobbe pays 145k for 1750 hours, but now has bonus that puts associates billing 2000 hours at 160k. Moreover, Knobbe is lifestyle firm with a partner track of five years. -- "I also think there is heavy compensation compression for upper-level associates." -- there are no upper-level associates...Knobbe calls them partners.

Townsend just pulled way ahead of F & R in terms of compensation.

This story is why BIGLAW firms that have a strong IP practice (Ropes+Gray, WilmerHale, K+E, Hogan+Hartson, Goodwin) and BIGLAW firms that are jumping into the IP market (Cravath, Cadwalader, etc) are going to dominate the highly lucratice IP litigation/coporate practice.

As for patent prosecution? It looks like the IP boutiques will still have a role to play, just at a far lower salary. And that's if IP prosecution isn't farmed out to other countries, as it's becoming more and more commoditized.

11:58 is spot on.

Anybody know how bonuses panned out at Kenyon, Darby, or Morgan Finnegan this year?

Okay everyone, I can understand how this sucks in big markets (DC, NY, perhaps even their main office in Boston or Cali offices).

But remember that F&R pays the same salary across all offices -- and they have quite a few -- so the salary is still pretty admirable for those outside the big markets:

http://www.fr.com/about/directions.cfm?child=addresses

All in all, F&R is a great firm and definitely draws the top talent in IP, but I'm glad I turned them down for my summer gig...teehee...

12:17--has Townsend announced bonuses for this year?

see below:

http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=CA2480

http://www.infirmation.com/shared/lss/one-payscale.tcl?employer_id=XX3860

12:14--

Even if "upper-level associates" are "partners" at Knobbe, there is still horrible compression for lower-level associates. Isn't it true that while a first year billing 1750 makes $145K, that a second year billing 1750 only makes $150K? So there is compression notwithstanding the short partnership track.

That being said, for 1750 hours, especially when you get billed hour credit for taking vacation (100 hours I believe), is very appealing to a lot of people and is probably worth the slight pay cut and compression.

11:43 - Agreed.

11:39 does not deserve air.

"Thank God I Didnt Accept a TTT Offer" - well, I'm surprised you "Didnt" because you were lucky to even receive one.

Nice try backtracking at 12:09. I really hate you.

11:39/12:09-

don't mask your poor grasp of written English by insinuating that you wrote your original post in a hurry...writing quickly doesn't explain your apparent inability to use the correct "their" instead of "there."

no one who understand the diffeence would type "there candidate pool" instead of "their candidate pool," just as no one who knows the proper turn of phrase would type "bait in switch" rather than "bait and switch."

11:49 -- What about Fitzpatrick Cella?

Compress me for $5k-$10k per year x 5 years. At most I have lost $50k-$75K. However, I am an equity partner beginning year 6 and making way more than a 6th year "associates". I would take that "compression" any day of the week!

I don't know what all this "patent prosecutors are idiots so they shouldn't complain" stuff is about, or why it's terribly relevant. Fish has plenty of IP litigators that are getting stuck with this same BS. Note to Fish, even at 2000, you're not at market, since your associates are losing the time-value of that extra cash.

I've done prosecution. There is nothing worse than trying to get litigation hours out of prosecution work. It is low-end, boring, simple, and basically the most drudgerous work a lawyer can do. Virtually every prosecutor is more of a scientist than an attorney - and is perfectly happy that way. You can have your patent equally well-prosecuted at a shop like F&R as you could with an independent prosecutor for half the cost.

What they should do is allow prosecutors to work without no hours requirements and a reduced salary. I think most would be fine with it. That way, there's no stress on the prosecutor and an understanding that those who pursue that line of work are ok without huge bonuses and 9-5 work schedules.

12:39--how much more?

12:24 - Seems to me it might be difficult to send patent writing overseas. If the invention is made in the US, you need a foreign filing license before exporting the idea overseas. I'd say that the writing of a patent application at the very least will not be sent overseas. I’ve done both litigation and prosecution, and I agree with many others who have said that litigation is much easier to bill. I believe that writing a clear, concise patent application and a understandable set of claims is a skill that requires talent that many lack.

Not only does this reduce compensation, more importantly it reduces their associates dignity and the prestigiousity of F&R. F&R was relatively prestigious in an unprestigious world, now they are very unprestigious in an unprestigious world, raising their unprestigiousity to totally astounding levels. If you work at Fish, you are now the square root of unprestigious.

re 1234:

Your math is wrong. You have lost way more than $50-75K over 5 years. In fact, if you assume $250K + bonus as a 5th year associate at a firm paying bonus (market bonus being $95K for firms with special bonus this year), that is $345K in total comp for a 5th year at a market paying firm. At Knobbe, a 5th year (not accounting for any bonus they may pay, which is dubious, and they have not paid bonuses in the past) is making $175K. That's a $170K different in salary in ONE year. Factor the difference over 5 years and you probably have $300-$400K, not $50-75K.

Furthermore, the PPP at Knobbe is about $500K. You can be absolutely certain that young partners at Knobbe aren't hitting this number. So a young partner at Knobbe is probably making in the $300-350K range, which is -- guess what -- less than a 6th or 7th year associate at a market paying firm makes.

So, the pay discrepancy is huge. Senior associates at market paying firms make nearly double what 5th year associates at Knobbe make, and they probably make more than young partners at Knobbe. Again, Knobbe people presumably work fewer hours, and potentially will stay with one firm for significantly longer, so there are clearly advantages to Knobbe. But you would have to stay at Knobbe for at least 10 years (maybe longer) to financially reap the benefits of their system. You would immediately reap the fewer-hours-worked benefits.

This SUCKS for F&R associates. Does F&R really think its associates are dumb enough to believe this is market? First of all, if you need a 2 page memo to explain that you are not screwing your people, you are probably screwing your people.

e.g., class of 2002 IP associate at biglaw NY makes $235 base plus 95 bonus = $330K total. How does that even come close to the bullshit $250K F&R pays?

Shit deal. . .

Patent prosecution is awfully difficult to do properly. Good prosecutors are under appreciated. Unfortunately for big firms, there is a trend to moving patent prosecution from big firms to small micro boutiques that have significantly lower overhead, and can do the work for much less.

1:00PM-

I think FR will still pay "merit bonuses" and additional bonuses at 2100, 2200 hours, but yeah, it seems highly doubtful that these would get an FR associate up to NY market. Total raw deal. As a 2L I'm extremely relieved to have taken a spot with a GP firm's IP lit group instead of FR. Nice to have my decision validated so quickly.

1253 - where do you get your numbers? Where do you get a 5th yr at Knobbe makes 175? Where do you get a 6th yr at biglaw makes more than 400k? I am not a knobbe troll, nor do I really care either way, but if you are going to make arguments with numbers...make sure they are right!!!

Obviously 1104 has never (1). Read a patent. (2) Prosecuted a patent. (3) Taken the "open-book" patent bar that has a pass rate around 50% AND is actually "CLOSED BOOK". (4) Litigated a case re a patent.

*********************
Did the exam change again? I took it summer 06 and it was "open book". It's not a book anymore but it's a pdf with ctrl+f to help you find what you're looking for so long as you know which MPEP section.

...freaking patent nerds.

F&R did amazingly well on the recent Vault surveys for associate satisfaction, hours, pay, best place to work, etc. They should have next year's biggest dropoff in these surveys. Interesting. Billing 2000 hours (tough but doable with a lot of effort as a prosecutor), but being screwed out of the market base plus bonus at that level, simply sucks.

Even if it's no sweat to meet the 2000, it's still deferred comp which totally sucks. Time value of money, etc. Plus, taxes will be withheld at the much higher "bonus" rate. If the deferred comp is paid out in January or later, you'll be waiting another 18 months to get any tax return on the excess "bonus" amount withheld. So, you do work in January 2008, get your deferred comp in January 2009 with a huge tax chunk withheld, and you'll get your tax return sometime in Spring 2010.

re 1253:

Uh, as for market pay at NY-market firms, look at any of the recent bonus posts on this site. My #s are definitely accurate for NY market & bonus. Senior associates do indeed make ~$400K. A 5th year associate does indeed make ~$350K.

Admittedly my #s for Knobbe are less certain, but it is a fact that their starting salary is $145K, and it is a fact that they are highly compressed. So I took the liberty to assume a $5K/year raise. Even if the raise is $10K some years, there is still an enormous pay discrepancy between Knobbe associates and associates at Market paying firms.

Any other bonus news on the remaining IP shops?

Should we even be talking about the big GP firms in this thread? None of these IP shops are "BIGLAW," though their base salaries are the same.

They also seem to have lower hiring standards than BIGLAW, for the most part.

Why are we comparing F&R to Cravath?

Let's compare F&R to Fitzpatrick, MoFi, Kenyon, Darby, etc and see where they stack up.

In that vein, does anyone have any idea what compression/bonuses look like at these firms generally? There doesn't seem to be any info yet for this year, but what about years past?

12:36(2):

Go back, re-read your post, and never attempt to correct someone's grammar again. Ever. Moron. Asshole.

nvnb

What does TTT stand for?

Re: 1.37pm - The reason for comparing IP firms to GP firms is that they compete in the same markets for both associates and work.

Re: 1.37pm - The reason to compare IP boutiques to general practice firms is that the GP firms' IP groups compete with the boutiques for associates and work. They are in the same market.

12:46 - do you think a foreign filing license is really going to stop a bunch of talented scientists overseas in India from prosecuting patents, and charging the 1/10 it takes a domestic firm?

Prosecution is easily commoditized, in the sense that the work is more technical writing involving science than it is legal work. You don't even need a JD to do it. You could say the same about litigation, but the fact of the matter is, there's way too much at stake in litigation for someone to farm it out. It ain't so with prosecution - sure, I suppose you could say your IP rights are on the line, but the vast majority of those rights aren't even exercised in court, making any benefit to doing the work here, speculative in nature. And we know how people react to speculative risks.

This useful link provides the salary info for a couple of IP firms (Fish and Fitzpatrick): http://www.lawfirmdiscussion.com/compensation/newyork07salary.php

Patent litigation arises as a result of a patent written broadly enough to cover an infringing product, or can turn on the invalidation of a patent that was written poorly. Clearly the quality of a patent is important.

If you've ever called Dell customer support, you would understand why patent prosecution will not be farmed out to other countries. Go back to your doc review.

@11:59

Fitzpatrick was lead counsel on the Plavix case (Baechtold)

@2:52

Chesler of CSM is listed first on the Fed. Cir. opinion: http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/opinions/06-1613.pdf

2:40 - did you not read my post? I'm not trying to say that patent prosecution is unimportant. What I am saying, though, is that the risks of a bad patent prosecution job are must less immediately apparent than litigation, where millions of dollars are on the line at this very instant.

Sure, there are exceptions to the case, say if you have a multi-billion dollar invention which you know will make you a market-leader. But most patents aren't like that - they are incremental inventions, the vast majority of which will never be used or exercised. THIS is why it's more easily commoditizeable.

ALSO, the fact that the risk of getting a bad patent job is SPECULATIVE - it all hinges on someone suing for their rights or someone trying to leverage it in a corporate deal. And that's a huge if.

However, in litigation, obviously the stakes are high because a court will bash your head in if you fuck up.

I'm not saying patent prosecution is unimportant, but I'm saying why I think such work is either: (1) going to be farmed out overseas; or (2) going to be farmed out to small boutiques that pay less. Either way, it's less $$$.

Any dirt on Kenyon?

""under the new compensation plan, an attorney of any class year who has billed 2000 hours will achieve compensation that is comparable to the highest level presently being paid in the marketplace for a 2000 hour contribution by an attorney of their level."

how else can it be spelled out? "

Oh my God you are retarded.

At 2000 they get a "bonus" that brings their compensation up to base for everyone else. That's hardly the "highest"; the "highest" is paid by firms who have a market base that doesn't screw over or hold up associates when partners don't bring in enough work, and who THEN give an added bonus at 2000 (and sometimes at even lower hours).

F&R is not "highest." It is fifteenth tier.

(Not that my firm is much better -- but I am happy to acknowledge that my firm's bonus structure sucks. That's why I love Lat and his list of shame).

2:25-patent prosecution can't be outsourced because except in limited circumstances the patent office won't allow non-citizens outside the U.S. to practice

Fish isn't "screwing" associates. They just can't afford to pay the salaries being paid by real firms. Their PPP is well below the full service biglaw shops. If they matched salaries, the junior partners would be making less than senior associates.

3:16 is right.

The other point is that Fish doesn't "achieve compensation that is comparable to the highest level presently being paid in the marketplace" unless they pay normal and special bonuses at the level that Cravath, etc. have announced. Today's memo is silent on bonuses for this year, let alone future years when the new system comes into effect.

Fish isn't "screwing" associates. They just can't afford to pay the salaries being paid by real firms. Their PPP is well below the full service biglaw shops. If they matched salaries, the junior partners would be making less than senior associates.

Better than Howrey's plan under which several third years are currently making less than all first years.

F&R could be playing with the word "market." As far as we know, they are referring to the "market" of "all of the other IP Shops" and not BIGLAW.

"Obviously 1104 has never (1). Read a patent. (2) Prosecuted a patent. (3) Taken the "open-book" patent bar that has a pass rate around 50% AND is actually "CLOSED BOOK". (4) Litigated a case re a patent. "

I've done 3 of those things. The pass rate says more about the applicant pool, the sunk cost of taking the exam, and the quality of available prep courses than it does about the caliber of people who pass.

The snarky tone of my post is consistent with the general tone of this blog. I know, like, and respect several patent prosecutors, but the whininess of the initial post struck a chord.

Also, I read the comments at the Patently-O blog (which are largely written by patent prosecutors), and in general they don't reflect well on the patent prosecution bar.

With respect to outsourcing, a few years back GE started using technical writers in India to draft applications. The applications were reviewed and filed by in-house GE patent attorneys, but the work was done overseas. GE did not consider it outsourcing because it opened a GE facility in India through which the technical writers were employed. Not sure if they are still doing that.

"With respect to outsourcing, a few years back GE started using technical writers in India to draft applications. The applications were reviewed and filed by in-house GE patent attorneys, but the work was done overseas. GE did not consider it outsourcing because it opened a GE facility in India through which the technical writers were employed. Not sure if they are still doing that."

No, they aren't. It failed. Now they auction off their prosecution work to the lowest bidder.

3:23 - the fact that the USPTO doesn't allow foreign prosecutors practice in front of the PTO means diddly when you have a US based partner sign off on everything that the foreign "associates" do overseas. This goes for litigation as well. However, as I stated, it's far more likely to happen with prosecution.

"Also, I read the comments at the Patently-O blog (which are largely written by patent prosecutors), and in general they don't reflect well on the patent prosecution bar."

Really? I find the comments at Patently-O to be mostly thoughtful and intriguing. Some trolls like Malcolm Mooney ruin the civility of it, but I think they generally reflect well on the patent bar.

So, exactly what COULDN'T be outsourced to India??

There's no aspect of the law that couldn't be done by a man with a diaper.

3:52 - DUH - that's one of my (very) minor points. But my MAJOR point is that prosecution work is particularly well-suited for outsourcing.

Litigation can be outsourced too, but the risks and stakes are so high that it won't happen. Different story for prosecution.

3:45 - if by lowest bidder you mean an IP boutique that doesn't pay market

3:56 - apparently you're unaware of the rapidly rising incidence of malpractice suits against prosecutors.

The world is flat.

Do you really think that companies like Apple, Microsoft and Intel want their patents written or researched in India, a country with basically no IP standards?

3:57 - link?

see, e.g., http://ip.law360.com/Secure/ViewArticle.aspx?id=39206

The debate as to the relative value of attorneys who prosecute patents versus those who litigate patents is an old one and rages on inside of every boutique doing both. The demise of Pennie & Edmonds (one of a tiny number of firms that did both, well) was in large part due to the fact that the litgators and the prosecuters had no respect or time for the others. I would note that Jones Day picked up most of the prosecuters but only a handful of the litigators.

While you're throwing stones at each other, I'd note that Fortune 500 companies don't generally hire in-house either patent agents (they want experienced attorneys), nor do they hire patent litigators. A patent prosecution attorney who is washing out (or voluntarilly leaving) of a law firm wil have many opportunities (at lower pay) but a litigator will be lucky to find any job at all.

3:46 - true, i guess, but risky.

1:00 - we associates are smart enough to know this sucks for us. I turned down offers at Weil and K&E to work here and now am wondering what the f*^k I was thinking.

Whether the pay is good enough for what we do is totally different question. I had to go home Friday night and tell my wife I got a pay cut. That was nice. (She's a lawyer, too, and knows what I would be earning had I taken any of the other offers.)

This sucks and we all know it.

"Really? I find the comments at Patently-O to be mostly thoughtful and intriguing. Some trolls like Malcolm Mooney ruin the civility of it, but I think they generally reflect well on the patent bar."

In fairness, there's a lot of variation. The PTO conspiracy theories, the sense of entitlement, the "you don't know anything until you've prosecuted a patent" attitude, and the generally ignorant responses to CAFC cases are what get me. The last part in particular. A lot of comments start with "I haven't read the opinion, but..."

Buried within all of that are a fair number of thoughtful comments, and every now and then a good discussion gets rolling. Maybe I'm just focusing too much on the negatives.

So, at this point in the comments, we have received no new information regarding other IP shops, and have come to the simple conclusion that F&R associates aren't making as much as their Biglaw counterparts.

Stunning.

4:45 - No, we were making as much but are not making as much any more.

That's different. And notable.

just bill 2000 hrs and you'll match biglaw!

Still no dirt on any other IP shops? C'mon people, we know you read this, at least give us a "still waiting for the memo" check in