Preventative strike.

Firstity First after a long period of waiting!

"not deeply invested ... really touched." That's meaningful.

Generally, FIRST tier schools can suck it.

Oooh great, I go to a school that teaches me state law for three years so I can pass the bar in 4th place.

The Dean said that because unlike some other NY schools, Cardozo does not offer a bar preparation course of its own or require certain courses that are designed to increase bar pass rates.

New York isn't the only state where T2s are doing well. Georgia State, a T2 law school, had the highest pass rate for both first time test takers and all around test takers beating both UGA and Emory, both T1 schools. Georgia State also had the highest average MBE.

http://www.gabaradmissions.org/pages/barstats.htm

Not a brooklyn grad, but aren't those schools really competing for the 5th place spot behind brooklyn? Or maybe Hofstra? (Hofstra was joke for all the serious folks out there)

Anyone else notice that early attempts to be "first" are being barred. I wonder if Lat is experimenting with some sort of "first regulation." I like it! Unless, of course, it prevents me from winning.

Generally, FIRST tier schools can suck it.

"I'm not deeply invested in bar pass rates," said Cardozo Law Dean David Rudenstine.

O RLY? Don't you think that bar pass rates are something you should be deeply invested in, Deano?

"The Dean said that because unlike some other NY schools, Cardozo does not offer a bar preparation course of its own or require certain courses that are designed to increase bar pass rates."

-Is this what Cardozo gets you? What?

Oooh great, I go to a school that teaches me state law for three years so I can pass the bar in 4th place.

Not a brooklyn grad, but aren't those schools really competing for the 5th place spot behind brooklyn? Or maybe Hofstra? (Hofstra was joke for all the serious folks out there)

2:56 nailed it. T1 students learn all the same sh*t in 3 days from paula franceze. which is why, despite not being taught the test by st. john's for 3 years, we still have higher pass rates.

"The Dean said that because unlike some other NY schools, Cardozo does not offer a bar preparation course of its own or require certain courses that are designed to increase bar pass rates."

-Is this what Cardozo gets you? What?

BLS in 10th? :shakes head:

BLS in 10th? :shakes head:

Oooh great, I go to a school that teaches me state law for three years so I can pass the bar in 4th place.

I always find it funny when TTTs hang their hats on bar passage rates, as if their students are suddenly going to get more job offers or someone is actually going to think they're in the same league as T1s.

I'm not sure about other second-tier schools, but it was only a matter of time before Cardozo started to compete with the first-tier ones. Considering that the school is only thirty years old, its improvement has been meteoric.

I know someone from NYLS and all they do is prepare you for the bar. Conversely, I know someone at Cardozo, and it seems like they don't teach to the test at all, no prep courses, etc. I think that is encouraging. Maybe the higher pass rate will push Cardozo into T1, only 2 spots away last year.

Cardozo grads to tenuous grasps on respectability!

I don't know much about the bar exam methodology, but to me what is most remarkable about these numbers is not the tiny jumps up and down by the top ranked schools, but the vastly larger leaps up by some of the lower schools.

Cardozo went up 2%, and Cornell went down 2%. But when Hofstra goes up 12%, that is more interesting.

Labels matter and we have to use something to distinguish schools, but perhaps this is one place where the numbers will continue to converge.

I'm sorry but Fordham is much better than either Cardozo or St. johns.

The Cardozo "leap" is within what is known as the margin of error. Statisticians would call it not statistically significant.

If you look at LSAT numbers, Cardozo's incoming classes for the past few years rank somewhere around 25th nationally. Perhaps the bar-pass stats raise awareness of the quality of Cardozo's students.

"Hofstra University School of Law also surged, up to 85 percent from last year's 73 percent."

This is rad.

Fordham 2L:
How is Fordham much better than Cardozo? I'm applying to both schools and I do not really see much of a difference aside from USN rankings. Anything you can provide would be helpful. Thanks.

the chest-thumping about where you went to law school is a sure sign of small penis syndrome.

Fordham 2L:

While Fordham probably has a better name with judges and biglaw (result of the Dozo's relative youth), the caliber of students and Faculty at Fordham is absolutely no better than at Cardozo.

In fact, one may argue that the Fordham students may be more foolish, since they probably got a scholarship to Cardozo, from where they can get all the same jobs. They have essentially paid more for a marginally better school (it's not like we're talking about NYU or Columbia here).

I got into both, and am glad that I came to Cardozo for the $25 g's and the same Vault Top15 job.

Cardozo is not really a TTT. It has lots of smart Jewish kids who don't roll on Shabbos and enjoy that about their school. Their average LSAT pretty high - especially compared to similarly ranked schools.

Fordham isn't tier 3?

Fordham: 100 years old
St. Johns: 80 years old
Brooklyn: 100 years old

Cardozo: 30 years old

Let's see what happens over the next 70 years...

"the chest-thumping about where you went to law school is a sure sign of small penis syndrome."

Says the graduate of a TTT that's now KFC's Employee of the Month.

"Source: Statistics provided by individual law schools."

OUCH. Right there you can gauge some of the problems with this survey.

Cardozo to Tier 1! (It's inevitable)

Cardozo 2L (and 3:21) -- While Cardozo is a very respectable school I don't think it is fair to say that the same jobs are available to both sets of students. At Fordham anyone in the top half of the class has their pick of numerous top firms, while I think Cardozo students generally need to be in the top 10% to get the same opportunities. And given how arbitrary law school grading can be I don't think the students who forgo a scholership to Cardozo to go to Fordham can be considered foolish given that by going to Fordham their chances of making 160 (plus bonus, plus special bonus) once they graduate are roughly 40% higher than they would be had they gone to Cardozo.

Fordham 2L, I think the differences between Fordham and Cardozo are vastly overstated. Both are regional schools and you need good grades at both to get a market job (versus NYU/Columbia). But if you attend Fordham you likely turned down a large scholarship from Cardozo, so I understand that you need to put down the school to justify the massive debt you're accruing.

"'the chest-thumping about where you went to law school is a sure sign of small penis syndrome.'

Says the graduate of a TTT that's now KFC's Employee of the Month."

Says the graduate of a first tier who probably, despite his degree, still has small penis syndrome

Whatever you think about who's #1, #2, etc. can we all agree that Touro sucks?

It would be interesting to do some sort of comparison between the financial resources of the individual students, and their bar passage.

I agree there is probably a correlation with this -- now if you can correlate that with the schools they go to, well, these numbers don't mean much then.

"'the chest-thumping about where you went to law school is a sure sign of small penis syndrome.'

Says the graduate of a TTT that's now KFC's Employee of the Month."

Better than being the worst employee at KFC.

3:29 - actually i graduated from Penn in '03 and work at a top-10 shop. and apparently i have a bigger penis than you.

"Better than being the worst employee at KFC."

Who, incidentally, is also probably a TTT grad.

In Texas, the school with the highest passing rate year in and year out is T2 Baylor, not UT. Largely this is because Baylor requires certain courses -- especially in the area of Texas Procedure (which is its own test section on Day 1 here).

Bar passages rates aren't always about the quality of education (not that Baylor's a bad school, but I don't think anyone would put it up there with UT).

Cornell is worthless. It's amazing that people think it's in the top ten. Nobody wants to go there, nobody wants to teach there.

The real reason that people say t-14 instead of t-15 is everybody secretly discards cornell and bumps everyone else up one slot.

3:21,

I was offered a full ride at Cardozo, but turned it down to go to Fordham.

I say with no hesitation that I do not regret my decision.

The fact of the matter is that people like 3:24(1) are the exception to the rule at Cardozo. Conventional wisdom is that you need to be top 10-15% at Cardozo (or Brooklyn, St. Johns) and Law Review to have a serious shot at BigLaw.

At Fordham, however, a solid 1/3 of the school will land BigLaw jobs, including myself.

You can't spell "Benjamin Cardozo" without "Bozo"

If you're worried about passing the bar, you probably aren't going to a top school anyway.

You can't spell "Benjamin Cardozo" without "Bozo"

I've got nothing against Cardozo, it's a good school. But anyone who is looking to get into biglaw and turns down Fordham for 'Dozo is an idiot.

Unless you're int the top 15% in 'Dozo, you're not gonna be making 160 after you graduate.

Fordham 2L:

Valid point. I don't doubt that big law goes deeper into the talent pool at Fordham. And yes, grading has a definite element of arbitrariness. But the talent pools are probably the same. So yeah, if you don't have confidence in your ability to come through, and don't mind spending the extra $$$ for what is essentially expensive job insurance (which doesn't insure anything but greater odds of getting a job if you don't do well), then go to fordham.

In reality, there are tiers of nyc schools:

1: NYU, Columbia
2: Fordham, Dozo, Brooklyn
3: NYLS, St. John's, etc.

In my opinion, choosing between the group 2 schools should more or less be a function of scholarship $$ they are throwing your way.

BTW, Dean Chalmers is kind of scummy.

3:37,

I didn't know KFC is a top 10 shop. Congrats!

3:39, did Cornell reject you?

Why do people continue to fight over who's law school is better, is because of their lack of I.Q. or small weanie? Those of us in Greg Tolands gym class certainly know the answer to that....

"At Fordham anyone in the top half of the class has their pick of numerous top firms." Fordham 2L, I don't know what top 1/2 students you're talking to, but I have friends who attend Fordham and they say this is definitely not the case. It is absolutely false to say that the top 10% of Cardozo = the top 50% of Fordham in terms of employment options. But again, whatever makes you feel better about that $150K+ monkey on your back. I for one will be enjoying my biglaw salary without having to worry about paying back loans!

Okay, here's the deal in Fordham vs. Cardozo

1) Cardozo's curriculum over-emphasizes NY Law and NY Practice so they students study a lot more of it starting in 1L year . . . whereas at Fordham, I have yet to take a course where New York State law is emphasized whatsoever

2) "foolishness" - I'd say most Fordham students that I've met turned down scholarships from Cardozo, BK, and St. johns, and Rutgers...and were also waitlisted at NYU/Columbia.
however, that does not make them foolish, it makes them savvy and risk-averse. Sure, if you take the full ride to Cardozo and end up in the top 10%, you're golden...especially if you're on Law Review.
However, if you take the scholarship, and end up int the 34% percentile at Dozo, you not only lose your scholarship, but are effectively shut-out wit BIGLAW at OCI and are screwed and probably won't get a shot at BIGLAW again until you get your LLM from NYU.

However, at Fordham, I know quite a few kids hovering aroudn the 50% percentile who got BIGLAW jobs paying 160 at firms like Stroock, SRZ, CWT, Mckee, Sidley, Dewey, etc....granted, those aren't v10 firms, but its better than nothing...

Bottom line - the gamblers who took their scholarships at went to dozo and ended up in top 10-15% fared well and should thank their lucky stars....the rest are scrwed.
One of my buddies here at Fordham, he's a 2L and his sig. other is a 3L at Cardozo...she was in like top 40% or something, she lost her scholarship and at the midpoint of 3L year, she still has not found a job and didnt work anywhere her 2L summer....

Since when is a bar pass rate proof of a first-rate law school? At my swearing-in almost 30 years ago, the guy sitting next to me that so many of the people from "my law school" failed. Which was "his" law school? Harvard.

Will you come off it, 3:24? They're not even fucking Jewish, man . . . Man, they' re fucking Polish Catholic . . . Maybe they converted when I married Cynthia, but five fucking years ago they were divorcedand it's all a part of their sick Cynthia thing, man. Taking care of her fucking dog. Going to her fucking synagogue. They're living in the fucking past.

Both are great schools and offer great opportunities in NY. I noticed in my 2L year at Cardozo that many people who were in the top 25% got multiple interviews with big firms in NY. Whether they got the offer or not depended on their personality at that point, but from the career services list of big firm employment last summer, there were at least a handful of people outside of the top 15% working at big firms. At least 2 people from that list were actually top 50% or lower.

But I also noticed during my summer that MANY MANY Fordham people got biglaw jobs despite only being top 50% or top 1/3rd of their class. Fordham has been around a lot longer with a much bigger network of alumni in NY. But give it time and I bet in 10 more years Cardozo's reputation in NY will have dramatically improved (despite how well received it is already after only 30 years).

I love how 3:40(3) (and almost everyone else in their comments) forgot about Cornell.

Cornell to inclusion in top-of-mind NY law schools!

In response to Fordham 2L,
It's just not true, though it may have been in recent years, that you need to be in the top 10% at Cardozo in order to land a BigLaw job. This year, just from people I know at the school it seems like atleast 20% of the class has already landed summer associate positions at BigLaw firms. These stats will only get better in the future when going to Fordham will more clearly be a big waste of money (unless Cardozo stops handing out the money).

Okay, here's the deal in Fordham vs. Cardozo

1) Cardozo's curriculum over-emphasizes NY Law and NY Practice so they students study a lot more of it starting in 1L year . . . whereas at Fordham, I have yet to take a course where New York State law is emphasized whatsoever

2) "foolishness" - I'd say most Fordham students that I've met turned down scholarships from Cardozo, BK, and St. johns, and Rutgers...and were also waitlisted at NYU/Columbia.
however, that does not make them foolish, it makes them savvy and risk-averse. Sure, if you take the full ride to Cardozo and end up in the top 10%, you're golden...especially if you're on Law Review.
However, if you take the scholarship, and end up int the 34% percentile at Dozo, you not only lose your scholarship, but are effectively shut-out wit BIGLAW at OCI and are screwed and probably won't get a shot at BIGLAW again until you get your LLM from NYU.

However, at Fordham, I know quite a few kids hovering aroudn the 50% percentile who got BIGLAW jobs paying 160 at firms like Stroock, SRZ, CWT, Mckee, Sidley, Dewey, etc....granted, those aren't v10 firms, but its better than nothing...

Bottom line - the gamblers who took their scholarships at went to dozo and ended up in top 10-15% fared well and should thank their lucky stars....the rest are scrwed.
One of my buddies here at Fordham, he's a 2L and his sig. other is a 3L at Cardozo...she was in like top 40% or something, she lost her scholarship and at the midpoint of 3L year, she still has not found a job and didnt work anywhere her 2L summer....

3:17 - Actually a statistician would tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. Margin of error applies when you are trying to extrapolate from a representative sample. For example, if you poll 5,000 Americans to find out who they like for president, you're going to have a margin of error because you're only asking a sample of the larger population group. The larger the sample the smaller the margin of error. Since this data covers 100% of the population (of first time test-takers) from each school there is no margin of error.

I went to a top 5 school, have an enormous penis and a kick ass apartment.

3:43, nah, sounds like a Cornell law grad rejected him.

Cardozo's curriculum doesn't emphasize New York law or practice.

3:47 - 20% of your class? You're proud of that?

FU 2L wrote: "1) Cardozo's curriculum over-emphasizes NY Law and NY Practice so they students study a lot more of it starting in 1L year." What? This is news to me. Did you just make that up?

Did you know that you can't spell "Loyola Second Year" without "Anally Sore Decoy" ?

Au contraire -- margin of error is indeed significant here. Assuming nothing really changes at a school from year to year you would expect deviations of a percent or two -- not always going to get exactly the same percentage because one or two students more or less are inevitably going to fail. But if a lot more students fail or a lot more pass-- it is more than just a natural fluctuation of a random sample from year to year -- it is a significant change. Hofstra's 12 point change was statisticially significant. Cardozo's/Cornell's 2 point change was not.

"3:29 - actually i graduated from Penn in '03 and work at a top-10 shop. and apparently i have a bigger penis than you."

It speaks volumes about your own perceived self worth that you anonymously talk shit on a "blawg" while allegedly possessing such credentials.

Poor flame or absolute and total loser.

...also, I think around 250-300 firms interviewed at Fordham this past year....I think it was pretty much every NY Vault 100 firm (except for Wachtell)....plust non-Ny firms with significant Ny offices....and I'm pretty sure that every firm interviewing at Fordham paid between 145 and 160. So with about 200 firms interviewing at Fordham and only about 400 kids doing OCI, kids have a pretty good shot of making at least 145 on avg (firms like buchanan and carter Ledyard interview at Fordham and pay 125-135)....so its just a better numbers option
We also have a ton of firms here interviewing for their Boston, DC, Miami, TX, LA, SF, London, Paris, and ASian offices....

No question cardozo is improving and will continue to improve but the fact is they are throwing money to take top students who otherwise would not have come to Cardozo - as someone who turned down Cardozo - I dont regret it - fordham's main issue has always been crappy facilities and crappy financial aid/scholarship. Fordham students go to Fordham BECAUSE they couldnt get into Columbia or NYU - face facts. Most Cardozo students (excluding Jewish students who wanted to go to a jewish school) go to Cardozo because of the moeny thrown their way or becasue they couldnt get int Fordham and by extension COlumbia or NYU. Top cardozo students like any other top student from anotehr school get the same opportunities - but its how deep you go in to the class - most people who go to law school say they ARE GOING to be top 10-20 - guess what in a ranked system - ONLY top 10-20 get those opportunities - everyone is a gunner but only a few will make it - call it an expensive insurance program ---but reality is I guarantee you 80-90% of students at cardozo said the same thing about having assurance in their own ability to get top 10-20 AND didnt MAKE it. Get real...

Why dont some Cardozo folks get on this board and talk about their other classmates who have effectively been blocked from applying for jobs becasue of their rank in their own schools systems or reprimanded by adminstration because they applied.

Cardozo system is set up so that the top 10-20 can make it out and keep building the school but the bottom get SHAFTED by employers AND THEIR SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION. Whatever the bottom get is based on some serious ass hustling and NOT their schools prestige. But thats the case anywhere outside top --?

I know too many Dozo folks to actually believe some BS some top cardozo grads are giving.

No question cardozo is improving and will continue to improve but the fact is they are throwing money to take top students who otherwise would not have come to Cardozo - as someone who turned down Cardozo - I dont regret it - fordham's main issue has always been crappy facilities and crappy financial aid/scholarship. Fordham students go to Fordham BECAUSE they couldnt get into Columbia or NYU - face facts. Most Cardozo students (excluding Jewish students who wanted to go to a jewish school) go to Cardozo because of the moeny thrown their way or becasue they couldnt get int Fordham and by extension COlumbia or NYU. Top cardozo students like any other top student from anotehr school get the same opportunities - but its how deep you go in to the class - most people who go to law school say they ARE GOING to be top 10-20 - guess what in a ranked system - ONLY top 10-20 get those opportunities - everyone is a gunner but only a few will make it - call it an expensive insurance program ---but reality is I guarantee you 80-90% of students at cardozo said the same thing about having assurance in their own ability to get top 10-20 AND didnt MAKE it. Get real...

Why dont some Cardozo folks get on this board and talk about their other classmates who have effectively been blocked from applying for jobs becasue of their rank in their own schools systems or reprimanded by adminstration because they applied.

Cardozo system is set up so that the top 10-20 can make it out and keep building the school but the bottom get SHAFTED by employers AND THEIR SCHOOL ADMINISTRATION. Whatever the bottom get is based on some serious ass hustling and NOT their schools prestige. But thats the case anywhere outside top --?

I know too many Dozo folks to actually believe some BS some top cardozo grads are giving.

3:55 - i'm sorry to have caused such envy. perhaps you went to a TTT AND have a small penis - ?

"Margin of error" does apply here if you are trying to determine whether anything has changed at a school from year to year. Even if nothing changes and the results are truly "random", there is still going to be a deviation of a couple of percentage points every year. But if the change goes up 12% (see Hofstra), that's probably significant -- i.e., more than the inevitable fluctuations of a random sample.

Let's settle this little spat- Cornell, Fordham, Cardozo = incredibly shitty TTTs.

No one at Cardozo is blocked from applying to jobs or reprimanded for doing so.

Sorry but if biglaw is your goal, there are far more FLS lawyers than Cardozo lawyers. So, regardless of "quality" of students or faculty, or bar passage rates, it makes no sense to choose Cardozo. The name of the school sticks with you quite a while and I think it's not worth the roll of the dice just to save some bucks in tuition.

FU 2L,

That is a good summation of the situation. Cornell is not nyc, so it was not included in the list. (I also don't see why someone would want to go there over even Fordham, but that is another topic).

The lower portion of the Fordham class does better with big law, but my experience this year is that top 25% or top 1/3 at dozo is fairing well. Granted, a lot of that is a function of what was a hot legal market at the onset of OCI.

From Prof. Leiter's rankings:
75th Percentile

Fordham University
167 3.74

Cardozo
166 3.72

25th Percentile
Fordham
163 3.41

Cardozo
161 3.23

So the bottom of your barrel is better than the bottom of my barrel. But that's not what we're striving for, is it?

End of the day, neither is NYU or Columbia, so your rep as a practitioner has to carry you professionally, not the degree on the wall.

FU 2L,

That is a good summation of the situation. Cornell is not nyc, so it was not included in the list. (I also don't see why someone would want to go there over even Fordham, but that is another topic).

The lower portion of the Fordham class does better with big law, but my experience this year is that top 25% or top 1/3 at dozo is fairing well. Granted, a lot of that is a function of what was a hot legal market at the onset of OCI.

From Prof. Leiter's rankings:
75th Percentile

Fordham University
167 3.74

Cardozo
166 3.72

25th Percentile
Fordham
163 3.41

Cardozo
161 3.23

So the bottom of your barrel is better than the bottom of my barrel. But that's not what we're striving for, is it?

End of the day, neither is NYU or Columbia, so your rep as a practitioner has to carry you professionally, not the degree on the wall.

Having just gone through the large firm recruiting process here at 'Dozo, I've observed that the "you gotta be in the 10-15%" line is quickly become inaccurate.

And I do say "quickly," b/c, a few years ago, 10-15% may have been the cutoff. Every year seems to get better: Current 2Ls seem to have better reports than current 3Ls.

Evidence: The vast majority of students on lesser journals than Law Rev - likely in the top 33% - were able to find some biglaw job (big law being defined as NYC 160K pay scale). Not all, but most. Conversely, a healthy number of students outside of the top third landed jobs, as well. There is no longer a hard-and-fast cut off...employers are more willing to dig deeper.

Of course, this is not only a function of Cardozo's rep, but the hot legal hiring market (until this past month or so). Furthermore, I acknowledge that Fordham is still ahead on law firm hiring...from what I hear, top 50 percent should be able to get a job, compared to Dozo's top 33 percent (with both schools these are very rough estimates, as described above).

But I will say that we are closing on Fordham in terms of law firm hiring - certainly faster than any other NYC school - and we have almost caught up in terms of average LSAT score (b/c Cardozo woos students away with scholarships, while Chalmers at Fordham tends to be cheap). It is no longer fair to lump Cardozo with St. Johns, and perhaps even Brooklyn.

Ohh, yea, and the NY Practice comment...I have no clue what that's about. We have no NY Practice requirement, although it may be smart for the bar. Civ Pro is entirely geared around federal practice. Common law 1L classes encompass all state practice, obviously.

Schlarships: I'd take Fordham over Cardozo at 10K, It's a toss-up at 15K, and Cardozo over Fordham at 20K.

FU 2L: "1) Cardozo's curriculum over-emphasizes NY Law and NY Practice so they students study a lot more of it starting in 1L year."

Completely and utterly wrong. In three years at the dozo, I took exactly one course that emphasised NY Law and NY Practice. It was called, unsurprisingly, "New York Practice." Was New York law was mentioned in other classes? Yeah, when and where it was appropriate, e.g. Palsgraf, just like any other law school.

FU 2L,

That is a good summation of the situation. Cornell is not nyc, so it was not included in the list. (I also don't see why someone would want to go there over even Fordham, but that is another topic).

The lower portion of the Fordham class does better with big law, but my experience this year is that top 25% or top 1/3 at dozo is fairing well. Granted, a lot of that is a function of what was a hot legal market at the onset of OCI.

From Prof. Leiter's rankings:
75th Percentile

Fordham University
167 3.74

Cardozo
166 3.72

25th Percentile
Fordham
163 3.41

Cardozo
161 3.23

So the bottom of your barrel is better than the bottom of my barrel. But that's not what we're striving for, is it?

End of the day, neither is NYU or Columbia, so your rep as a practitioner has to carry you professionally, not the degree on the wall.

Having just gone through the large firm recruiting process here at 'Dozo, I've observed that the "you gotta be in the 10-15%" line is quickly become inaccurate.

And I do say "quickly," b/c, a few years ago, 10-15% may have been the cutoff. Every year seems to get better: Current 2Ls seem to have better reports than current 3Ls.

The vast majority of 2L staffers on lesser journals than Law Rev - likely in the top 33% - were able to find some biglaw job (big law being defined as NYC 160K pay scale). Not all, but most. Conversely, a healthy number of students outside of the top third landed jobs, as well. There is no longer a hard-and-fast cut off...employers are more willing to dig deeper.

Of course, this is not only a function of Cardozo's rep, but the hot legal hiring market (I think summer assoc. recruitment was largely unaffected by the market hit). Furthermore, I acknowledge that Fordham is still ahead on law firm hiring...from what I hear, top 50 percent should be able to get a job, compared to Dozo's top 33 percent (with both schools these are very rough estimates, as described above).

But I will say that we are closing on Fordham in terms of law firm hiring - certainly faster than any other NYC school - and we have almost caught up in terms of average LSAT score (b/c Cardozo woos students away with scholarships, while Chalmers at Fordham tends to be cheap). It is no longer fair to lump Cardozo with St. Johns, and perhaps even Brooklyn.

Ohh, yea, and the NY Practice comment...I have no clue what that's about. We have no NY Practice requirement, although it may be smart for the bar. Civ Pro is entirely geared around federal practice. Common law 1L classes encompass all state practice, obviously.

$$$ vs. job security: I'd take Fordham over Cardozo at 10K, It's a toss-up at 15K, and Cardozo over Fordham at 20K.

Fordham students = rejected/WL from NYU/Columbia

Brooklyn Cardozo Students = rejected/WL from Fordham

Happy?

...I'm surprised no one has said anything about cardozo's sheisty use of scholarship money to lure in students away from fordham....

From what i understand from kids at Dozo...it works like this...

You get a scholarship, BUT, keeping that scholarship is contingent on remaining in the top 33% of the class....

HOWEVER - at least 35% of incoming students get merit-based-contingent scholarships

FURTHERMORE - it seems that the kids with scholarships are clustered into many of the same sections...

THEREFORE - a large proportion of the scholarship recipients lose their scholarships....which is how dozo engineered it (I think BK does the same thing)

So, sure, if you are lucky enough (at a school like cardozo, it's luck), to keep your scholarship AND get a BIGLAW job, then you're set for life pretty much....but if you're unlucky, like the at least 80% of dozo students shut out of BIGLAW< then you're scrwed for life...

FYI...I turned down a full-ride at St. Johns, Cardozo, and BK to attend Fordham with only a 5K Scholarship (which i received AFTER i'd already accepted)....

ummm 2L i interviewed with a partner from cardozo who could not hide his disdain for his alma mater...he was quite sheepish actually - i was surprised.

anyways...thats not what I hear from outside TOP 20 DOZO kids... may be the kids sitting in the golden chairs should listen to the bottom 80 who are carry their financial butts to go to the school on scholarship.

also you may have to consider that kids in your own school will less likely express their displeasure or hardluck to other dozo kids becasue of embarrassment or sheer bitterness - either way - they have no problem sharing their frustration with kids outside the school.

Look, no one is saying that Cardozo is the most awesome school in NYC and that their grads are guaranteed jobs no matter how crappy their grades are. But as someone who had both options and chose Cardozo over Fordham, my only point was that I don't think the differences are significant enough to justify paying full-price for Fordham. That's all.

I'm not denying that Some Dozo kids fare very well, but the deck is stacked against them..

i'd really like to know how many NY V100 firms interivew at Dozo and how many they actually take....

In terms of representation at NY BIGLAW firms, based on raw numbers, Fordham is more on the same level with NYU/columbia/and even yale (which sends a ton of its grads to gov't/clerkships) than with Dozo/BK...

I got nothing but love for Fordham. Why don't we all turn our attentions to the fact that Cardozo beat out Cornell - a T14 IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL.

Hey Cardozo 2L! - just click the button once, you 'dozo.

Sheesh - obviously you went to 'dozo . . 'dozo. Hahahaha!

I hope fordham admin peruse this comments page....

GIVE US MORE MONEY!!!

Nuff said......

4:08 - Yeah, pretty much. But those of us that have good jobs really don't care!

Cardozo '09

I think you're wrong. Even when the difference between attending Fordham over Cardozo is a full scholership I think anyone would be crazy to turn down Fordham... I think it is a fact that students in the botton of the class at Fordham are not shut out of Big Law the way students in the bottom of the class at Cardozo are. And as I said earlier, it is not necessarily a function of hardwork or intelligence that will determine whether you make the top 10 or 15% at any law school.

Seton Hall and Rutgers both throw money at people like nobody's business. If you can't get into Fordham, Jersey is the place to be.

At least if you don't land top grades, the Jersey firms reach pretty deep into the class. Better than the bottom 75% of cardozo students that are all left with nothing after BigLaw doesn't pan out.

PS - When I was deciding between law schools (UVA, Fordham, Dozo, BK, St. Johns), I made a spreadhseet comparing how many graduates from each school were working in the NY offices of the V100 firms (it took for ever)

The final result, was that, UVA and Fordham, on average, had 25 graduates in the NY offices of the V100....Cardozo had 12, Bk had 8, St. Johns had 4.

Granted...some firms had way more Dozo grads than Fordham grads, and same for St. Johns too, but the average, and trend...is obviously that firms take about twice as many Fordham grads as Cardozo grads...

I invite anyone else to do the same analysis as me and see what your results are

NYLS to Fordham: Suck it.

4:19 - yeah, but then you're working at a Jersey firm.

Fordham 2L, ok, whatever, this is dumb. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. However, I'm very happy with my decision to turn down Fordham for a full-scholarship at Cardozo and I have plenty of friends who feel the same way. And I'm pretty sure we're not crazy.

...so will any Dozo students defend/explain their schools schuystery use of disappearing scholarships?

Got a fed clerkship while being in the top 1/3 in my class. Booyaka shot!

P.s. FU law has the FINEST girls of any NYC law school, including carbozo.

FU 2L,
Fordham also has almost twice as many law students each year as Cardozo.

But to your earlier question...the OCI provides a spreadsheet of 2007 prior biglaw employment (no i won't cut and paste it here) which lists students who accepted offers at big firms. There were about 75+ names on the list, and two of my friends (one went to Goodwin Proctor and the other went to Orrick last summer) were not on the list because they forgot to e-mail OCI before the list was compiled.

So I'd estimate that at least 80 students in my class worked at big firms last summer out of 250(?) total.

FU 2L: I commend you for doing that analysis - that's pretty damn impressive. And that actually sounds about right.

I know, it's not much consolation for disgruntled Cardozo students now...But I do think that Cardozo is on the brink. It is such a young law school, and we are just now starting to see Cardozo grads make significant partnership positions that give them recruiting weight (e.g. being a partner on the firm's recruiting committee). The first 15-20 years of its existence didn't create many biglaw-ers, and you're just now starting to see alot of the 'Dozo biglaw pioneers becoming bigshots in firms. That's why I say that Cardozo has vastly improved in the last few years alone. And that's why I predict a sharp upturn in its big law hiring rates, and I hope against any plateuing.

Cardozo '09

I agree. Best of luck and I hope to see you at the next NYC law school mixer.

4:25, I don't quite know what there is to explain or defend. Do you think the school gives us a memo informing us of their nefarious plans? Yes, there are rumors on the internet that Cardozo stacks certain sections with scholarship kids. There are also rumors that Brooklyn does the same thing. However, each year every section thinks their section is the "scholarship section" so I don't really buy it. For the record, I don't know anyone who lost their scholarship after 1L.

I wont knock a full scholarship! FREE is always great and better than paid in most situations - but dont confuse your "golden" situation for the rest of your brethren who have to do some SERIOUS ass scrambling to find something comparable or anything for that matter.

Your gamble paid off - but it was a gamble that was limited to a FEW who could see it worked out...

Great situation but dont froget what that trade off was - lower prestige ... which is what in this assbackward profession unfortunately counts as the marker of achievement.

Even I believe its stupid - but thats the system.

FU 2L: What is the point of that exercise? UVa is a completely different animal than Fordham and the other schools. The reason UVa's numbers were at all close to the other schools on your list was because most UVa grads choose to go to places like DC, Atlanta, LA, and SF. If you go to UVa, your chances at NY biglaw are much higher than they are at Fordham. Given all the other reasons to go to UVa over Fordham, you made a very bad decision.

Don't forget. This 2007 term there is a Cardozo grad clerking at the US Supreme Court. Cardozo has now had 2 Supreme Court clerks in its 30 year history of being a law school. So I think that SCOTUS clerkships, (while the ABILITY to get one from Cardozo is slim to none) speaks volumes of the prestige that Cardozo is steadily gaining nationwide.

Also...I didn't receive any scholarship :(. But I can confirm that there is a GPA cutoff to maintain the scholarship. I don't remember what it was for my year, but my friend's roommate who was a 2L this year said it was around a 3.35-3.4. He lost his scholarship and subsequently left Cardozo this fall. But, he actually hated law school and intentionally didn't try to do well his 1L year so take that with a grain of salt.

Just to weigh in beyond the anecdotes, look at the nalpdirectory for real recruiting info. If you click on "Law Firm" and search for who interviews at Cardozo, you get 123 hits. For Fordham, 330. Columbia, 614.

So no, Fordham is nowhere near the same league as Columbia, but at the same time, Cardozo is nowhere near being in the same league as Fordham, in terms of who wants to hire grads from these schools.

Personally, I work at a v50 in DC, at a firm that has never employed a Cardozo grad in any office (there are Fordham grads in at least 3 of our offices, so placement outside of NYC is definitely possible if you want it). So turning down Cardozo's large scholarship was, for me, a great decision. And most of my friends at Fordham also turned down a lot of money from Cardozo, and they're all working at v20 firms in NYC...

i'm cardozo grad, top ten vault firm. never took a ny practice or ny law class in my life (other than the ny eptl component to trusts and estates). we don't even look at the cplr in civ pro - just the frcp. just had to debunk the fordham g