I think FIRST gets supreme court clerkships!

wasssuuuup

First. Law School grades remain relevant throughout your associate years. Law firms will request and review your transcript and while your case roster, deal sheet, and experience will be more meaningful - grades will still play a role for many potential employers. Past the partnership stage they are close to irrelevant compared to the other familir factors - business, etc. etc.

Beware the 2L who coasts in the 2L year - many large firms will request your 2L grades during your 2L summer and a signigifcant drop off can spell t-r-o-u-b-l-e.

Firms which are notoriously picky on grades for entry level may be somewhat less so for laterals - but in any event I suspect 90% or morewill request transcripts for associate laterals.

How about for USAO/DOJ a few years out? Really important or only somewhat?

how poorly must one do for a firm to fire/rescind offer of full time employment to a 3L?

Why do 1st semester 2L grades still matter? Does this mean I still have to study?

Do grades really matter THAT much? I go to a good school (Hofstra) so I am pretty much set. I guess grades will probably matter more if you go to a bad school.

Both biglaw firms that I summered at requested grades from my entire 2L year after the summer was over. The firm that I accepted at needed an official transcript when I started. The question is, do I think they even looked at my grades? I highly doubt it. I think you would need do have somthing truly horrible for it to have a negative impact.
As far as lateralling into the same firms, I am not sure.

Grades will be very important when you want to lateral, up until you have your own book of business. I've worked with associates from Skadden, that weren't able to secure interviews with some other top firms because their law school grades took a hit, even though they summered at Skadden!

Since when has Hofstra been a good school?

1:38 - that is really funny. I love it. You can take that diploma from Hofstra and pretty much get any job you want.

Dont kid yourself...almost all worthwhile firms ask for transcripts for lateral hires....they count the "A"s and "B"s and good luck if there are any "C"s

Hof1L...I seriously hope you're joking.

Grades matter more for laterals in down-markets and some in-house positions, although the latter seem to be earned through personal connections more than grades.

FACT - Hofstra IS a GOOD school. If you are like me and graduate Magna from Hofstra, you will have your choice of top insurance fraud defense boutiques and document review boutiques to choose from.

Hofstra has a good reputation with the big NY firms. Since I want to work in Manhattan, I am not too worried about grades. Although I know some people in my class want to go to DC or LA - I think Hofstra does well there too, but they will probably need at least decent grades.

Unless you go to a top 10 school, grades are HUGELY important for that first job. I went to a school ranked in the 30s by USNWR and I know a lot of people who don't have permanent employment, and all were in the lower half of the class upon graduating last spring. Unless you were top 25%, non of the big firms would even consider you.

2L grades are irrelevant, esp. if you did well 1L year and got a good 1L Summer job.

Hiring for 2L summer takes place before you have gotten a single grade for 2L year. Neither of my 2L summer employers requested grades...I wish they had since I did a heck of a lot better than 1L year.

Got offers from both firms. Once you prove you can work 2L summer, the firms could care less about subsequent grades (except the Bar grade of course).

The whole freaking system is broke. Certainly doesn't favor those of us who go back to law school after working for several years...you kind of forget how to take a test. Further, ability to take a law school test has virtually nothing to do with ability to be a successful partner (esp. in transactional practices).

Similar to in years past, Baker Botts (Houston office) didn't give permanent offers to two summer associates whose grades from 2L year were lower than there 1L grades that got them a job at Baker Botts. Both were told that if they got there grades back up as a 3L, then the firm would reconsider.

I used to think they didn't matter, but every firm that I've looked at lateraling to has requested a transcript. One firm rejected me within 24 hours because my grades weren't up to par for them. I went to a top 5 school also.

Grades definitely matter throughout law school. The only way this is not true is IF your only goal is to take a job with the firm you summered with and IF you never anticipate leaving. This second "if" is almost certainly a false assumption. Everyone is familiar with the statistcis - most associates leave their firm for some other job by the third year. These potential new employers still look at grades, even if only to see whether you graudated with Latin honors. But, you can't graduate with Latin honors unless you have good grades throughout law school. Other employers, USAO and DOJ in particular, definitely look at grades for the simple reason that they have so many otherwise qualified people applying for the lateral positions that they have to drill in and make distinctions based on things like grades. Similarly, more and more attorneys are applying for clerkships after a couple of years of practice, and more and more judges are starting to hire only these kinds of applicants. Obviously, grades still matter then as well.

Douche bag says what.

Hof1L - I sincerely hope you are studying your ass off for your upcoming exams. Even though SOME big firms in NYC may consider recruiting from Hofstra, for them to even read the second sentence in your cover letter, you better be top 10% and on a journal. Now get back to work or you will end up like Loyola 2L.

Hof1L - Seriously, Hofstra is a good school, but if you're talking about biglaw manhattan, don't kid yourself, you need top 20% minimum after 1L for them to even consider you. Bigfirms are worse status whores than certain pampered Long Island girls. Hit the books!!!

Lol. I laughed out loud in my (NY) office when I read Hof1L write that Hofstra is a good school. Seriously, what are you smoking?

But you're right, Hofstra is probably the 5th best law school in New York after Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Fordham and Brooklyn. Cheer up - you probably beat St. Johns and Cardozo (though maybe not...)

What do people do during the 1L summer?

1:48,

Consider this...when rejecting a summer associate, might it just be a little easier for a firm to say: "Sorry, your grades dropped off...can't extend you an offer."....

Instead of the real reason: "We thought you had social skills, you have none."; "You may be able to take a test, but your work product is piss-poor"; "We had a higher attrition rate in summer's than we thought...and we like you least.", etc.

Hof1L--

Please confirm that you're joking or having a little fun with us. Hofstra may be a good school and significnatly underrated by US News, but you're really setting yourself up for dissappointment if your comments parallel your true outlook.

As Lat alluded to somewhat, it all depends on your goals. I'm a 3L at a T5 and I've pretty much coasted; my gpa is probably like 3.15 or something and I got straight B's even as a 1L. But I got exactly what I wanted - a V30 firm's branch office in a secondary market that pays NY salary. I have no intention of trading up in a lateral move, since that would probably involve moving to NYC, which I do not want to do. If I pull down a couple of B minuses this year, I don't think that would hurt my chances in any lateral move that I would realistically consider.

1:48(4) is right on. You law students have to think beyond your first offer. What about your career? It's stupid but not having top grades will close a lot of doors to you forever no matter where you went to school - certain selective botiques, clerkships, DOJ/AUSA.

I've heard horror stories of firms unexpectedly breaking up during someone's 3L year and suddenly grades became much more important.

1:53: Pretty obvious Brooklyn trolling. Too bad your school sucks, too.

1:53 -- Brooklyn Troll.

Hofstra 1L---you must be nuts--I was a 1L at Hofstra--worked my ass off did very well and then transferred to a T5 school. Best move I ever made. You better be in top 10% of the class if you hope to land any sort of job.

People here work really hard and in general are just as smart as people I have met from the other NY schools above. We learn the same things that people at NYU, Columbia, Fordham etc. I have met with career services and it seems like most people get jobs in manhattan if they want them. I know that other schools are "ranked higher" but who really cares? Plus the Hofstra Law Review is very well regarded.

anyone who thinks their grades will not follow them around for years after law school is completely deluding themselves. every major firm wants a transcript when you attempt to lateral. in certain groups, like real estate or corporate, they matter less. if you wind up in litigation you need to be top of your class. if you are at one of the best of the best firms now, you can pretty much go where you want. but don't think you can be at any NY market firm that is considered second tier and jump to the top 20 with anything less than stellar grades. top firms will ding you for one "C" even with a top GPA. this is reality folks - so study study study

according to US News - Cardozo is 52, St. Johns is 70, and Hofstra is Tier 3

Hof1L: Your only saving grace will be getting on that "very well regarded" Hofstra Law Review. It may even be a stretch if you do. It probably shouldn't be that way, but it is.

1:57(2),

I will pass on clerkships, DOJ/AUSA, etc...I went to law school to get paid.

Sure a $15k clerkship boost to start is nice. But if, instead of the clerkship, I work for the firm, make my salary for that year, and have my second year salary bumped to the same as the person who spent a year clerking...I have no complaints. Plus, I made good bank the year the other person was clerking.

Wait, law schools give out grades?

What kinds of reasons did you give in your personal statements? Just want a better school or what?

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I graduated ucla 06 and have looked into lateraling. ALL firms have requested transcripts.

All grades do after your first job is indicate whether there was a past problem. No one could give a rats ass whether or not you had a 3.7 or 3.0 after they've hired you. If your networking skills are so poor that you are finding jobs in your fourth year of practice by trying to mass mail transcripts, your GPA is the least of your problems. Grow up people, no one gives a shit about your precious little As and Bs once you're an adult.

If you go to a Top 4-10, a few employers care, like Gibson and Quinn.

What matters more is where you worked, what kind of experience you have, and your reputation.

Hof1L is clearly flame.

anyone remember arlen specter in one of the alito confirmation hearings, saying that alito had "good marks" in law school?

1:53 did they teach counting at your law school?

"But you're right, Hofstra is probably the [5th] best law school in New York after [1]Columbia, [2]NYU, [3]Cornell, [4]Fordham and [5]Brooklyn[....[5?]Hofstra]. Cheer up - you probably beat St. Johns and Cardozo (though maybe not...)"

if you want to make NY market, you better be at the top of your class from any 2nd tier or 3rd tier school. there are a bunch of hofstra grads in biglaw - they just got very good grades

Hof1L - It doesn't matter how smart the people at your school are or how hard they all work. I hate the elitist crap that posters shout on this site as much as the next guy and wish that it wasn't true, but the reality is in the recruiting trends. If you want a good job at a good firm (notice I didn't even say top job at a top firm) and you are coming from Hofstra (or any school in the portions of the USNWR rankings organized alphabetically) than you MUST be top 10-20% and on a journal. This is the reality. Now go study so you can get a job.

anyone remember arlen specter in one of the alito confirmation hearings, saying that alito had "good marks" in law school?

Haven't a few top tier schools eliminated grades or significantly changed the model. Love to hear any actual input from people at some of these schools or who have relevant info?

2:06---Not at all---have to spice it up--tell them more opportunities, more exposure to top notch teaching, but grades are the key and you need great recommendations from current professors. Trust me they know they are a better school ant what the real reason you want to transfer is. Do real well --i mean top 10 (not percent) in your class and you should be able to

Hofstra = Cumberland School of Law of New York

Hof1L: Hofstra is not a bad law school. Most graduates can probably get a good job. However, Hofstra is not a great (or even very good) law school and only a few graduates per year make it to the big leagues.

Hofstra students learn the same things as NYU and CLS students do, but the caliber of students and professors at NYU and CLS are in a league of their own.

There is a difference between "requsting transcripts" and having your grades matter.

When you are looking for a job coming out of law school, grades and school prestige are 95% of what gets you an interview and probably 25% of whether you get an offer.

As a junior-mid level associate looking to lateral, my sense is that getting an interview probably comes down to 30-60% firm experience, 30-60% deal sheet and 30% 20-40% grades and school prestige (decreasing as your experience level goes up). Once you have that interview, grades and school are going to play a pretty negligible role in whether you get an offer (unless you were top 5 in your class, EIC of the law review or went to Harvard or Yale - you'll always get some points for those).

For senior associates grades probably matter very very little, unless you have really bad grades from a bad school. And if you have really bad grades from a really bad school, you probably don't have the firm experience and deal sheet to get in the door anyway.

I'm at a top3 and want to do firm work, so admittedly my grades matter less than others. That said, my only point was that you have a certain amount of energy. Better to spend it actually working than stressing out over your tests and grades. In class now, no studying possible, so time to troll ATL...

Grades are monumentally important if you mess up your 1L year and you aren't at a top school. I went to a second tier state school, and during my second semester there was a family issue that came up right before the exams. Translation: I couldn't study and messed up the exams and didn't have time to do a journal write-on. That killed my OCI during my 2L year. In response I kept working my ass off during my 2L and 3L years. I got a small firm that I worked at during my 2nd year summer. But due to good grades and perseverance (I just barely missed honors despite the complete mess-up that was my second semester), I managed to land a job at a Biglaw firm during the middle of my 3L year. Now, having passed two bars, and getting paid the Biglaw salary, I feel that all the extra effort was worth it.

Well I am considering transferring from Hofstra to Seton Hall since they are ranked fourth in health law. I just don't understand why I have to be "top 10%" to get a job in Manhattan. I wll have a law degree just like everyone else from the other NY schools. Plus I like to argue, so I think I will be a great lawyer. I am pretty sure even if I just do middle of the pack at Hofsra I will be fine. If I can somehow do well enough to transfer to Seton Hall, then I am assuming my 2L and 3L grades won't matter that much. Plus I am a good looking female :)

I summered at a big firm in Atlanta after my 1L year. Halfway through the summer they asked us all to submit an updated resume (but no request for transcript). Presumably that went to the hiring committee for consideration in making offer/return next summer decisions. I am relatively certain the few people who were not extended offers met their fate because of poor performance on projects, and not any drop in their grades.

I would be very surprised a law firm would turn away a summer they had invested $50k+ in who had done excellent law firm work but whose grades had dropped somewhat.

The "grades don't matter theory" that Lat referred to says that "Once you've secured your summer associate gig in the fall of your 2L year, you can pretty much coast."

I think it goes without saying that anyone following this creed doesn't care about clerkships and is not looking to lateral up in their first year or two or reinterview as a 3L. They also probably did reasonably well as a 1L and consider "coasting" more like getting straight B's than straight C's. With those provisos, grades generally do not matter.

I'm a 3L at HYS, so obviously I haven't had to deal with this yet, but it seems that the farther away from LS you get, the less grades matter. ALL firms need mid-levels, so while grades may play a major role for a 1st year trying to jump, if you're in the 4-8 range, most hiring is need based, so I doubt it's as big a deal.

Wow...you've all confirmed what I thought all along: New York IS a city full of worthless douchebags. Thanks, everyone!

Hof1L:

Oh...good looking female...you should of said that at the beginning. You'll be fine.

I recommend sending a full-body shot with your transcript b/c it's hard to know what you look like based off of a transcript.

Man, there are some sharp ones at Hofstra.

Grades do matter. I summered at a biglaw firm this past summer. I was law review and in the top 5% of my class after first year but slipped to the top 15% after one bad semester second year - not exactly failing out of school. Firm no offered me because of it. And no I didn't hit on any partner's wives or jump naked off any piers.

How hard is it to lateral into NYC from a smaller market? What if you were top 10% at a T14 and had an appellate clerkship?

Anyone else find it amusing that this thread started to address an off-topic discussion in the Thanksgiving thread, and has devolved into an off-topic discussion of Hofstra-grads' employment prospects? +1 to Hof1L for troll of the day.

if you want to do health law, then maybe consider seton hall. but honestly, i think hofstra gets more cred in the city than seton hall.

all of the students on this board who think that grades will not follow them - i am sorry to say you are in for a rude awakening. a lot of times people with mediocre grades luck into a biglaw spot - or you had great grades to get the summer clerkship and offer, but then bombed your 3rd year. good luck trying to lateral. the name of your firm goes a long way, but if you aer from a second of third tier school, grades will be a factor on whether or not you even get an interview -especially as a litigator. this is not an opinion - but fact - sorry kiddies

Hof1L---good looking will help if you get an interview and you wear a short skirt---however you won't even get the interview if you are not in top 10-20% at Hofstra. Sorry but just the facts. Seton Hall? If you want to transfer has to be to Fordham or above.

SLS is likely getting rid of 1L grades in two years, timed to coincide with the switch to the quarter system. Too late to help me, but...

@2:18 - I'm assuming this was some troll pretending to be Hof1L. If not, then Hof1L is even more clueless than I thought.

Grades definitely matter all through your associate years. I am a 4th year litigator working at a BigLaw firm. I graduated in the middle of the pack of my law school class from a top 10 law school. Now that I am looking to lateral to another firm, other (comparable) firms will not even interview me b/c my grades were not high enough. I never knew my average grades would impact my career so majorly. I thought grades would not matter, but even 4-7 years out firms in NY get inundated with resumes and would rather only interview those who graduated cum laude.

2:24, you must have gone to Hofstra for that to happen. No way that happens if you went to any T-50 school...or maybe the firm just didn't like you and used your grades as an excuse.

2:24,

But be honest with yourself...you may not have done anything crazy, but do people generally like you...are you a sociable person.

Did they no offer you a 2L summer position or no offer you entry level?

2:24: Wow. That is harsh. For those of you trying not to panic, I slipped from the top 6% to about the top 30% (not at a top tier school, either) in my second year and still got an offer at my BIGLAW firm. It all depends.

Hof1L cannot be a real person. - "I like to argue, so I think I will be a great lawyer." Seriously?

Or if she is, she needs to transfer to Miami.

Flamers aside, grades probably do matter a lot when you're lateraling as a junior associate. The truth is that big law is not what it's all cracked up to be; for most associates, it will be the only "high paying" job that they will ever have. The attrition rate means that most will lateral at least once before leaving big law. Grades do matter; don't get stuck at a firm merely because you slacked off 2L/3L.

I have a 3.3 from a T5 school and graduated in 2006. I'm thinking of moving firms and I'm happy that I kept my GPA somewhat decent.

Stop feeding the trolls.

I am a real person. Obviously I just don't know as much as you guys. I decided to go to law school right from college - I got a good LSAT score and went to Hofsra since I know it has a good reputation in Manhattan. I don;t want to have to get a job by wearing a short skirt (but I have done MUCH worse for a grade in college ;) I am just not that concerned about my grades since I know from career services almost everyone at Hofstra gets a job. Plus I have no debt since my dad pays for law school :)

Grades do matter, especially if you want to lateral into a comparable or better firm as a litigator.

There are firms which just don't care about grades. And even DPW takes rockstar senior litigators with mediocre law school records. But generally, it's better to have solid grades past 1L year.

But as many posters above have pointed out, hiring in sometimes need-based, and when practice groups are desperate they'll take anybody.

Also, it's true that having great grades won't necessarily help you rise to the top once you move wherever you want to go. Grades are sometimes a barrier, but rarely the silver bullet they're made out to be in LS by ueber-insecure gunners.

i think a huge fact is overlooked by everyone on this board. there is such a thing as grade inflation. all top school are known for that. nobody at hls or cls or anyt other top school gets Cs unless they are retarded. so i am not really sure if a 3.3 in a top school means anything if everyone gets that grade. i think what matters more is the rank and the grade curve.

"I am just not that concerned about my grades since I know from career services almost everyone at Hofstra gets a job"

if you want a 75K insurance defense job, or a 25 dollar an hour temp doc review project, then don't worry about grades.

Above posters suggested that very specific practice groups don't care as much about GPA for laterals. Does anyone have experience lateralling between niche practices in big firms and GPA?

Me - I'm in an agency-specific regulatory and licensing group at a DC Biglaw shop (NYC-based) and am looking to lateral, but my final GPA was barely top half.

Having a 3.3 from a T5 school is better than having a 3.0 from a T5 school.

The point is that while awesome grades will not guarantee you a great lateral job, bad grades may hold you back later in your career.

Hof1L: I hope for your sake you are VERY good looking...

depends on the practice also. I've heard, for example, that firms are more unforgiving over grades with respect to tax associates.

I've been asked more than once for my undergraduate transcript. I graduatd in 1998 but apparently still relevant so I am not so sure I would say that law grades don't matter.

Disclaimer: I work in IP so people need to know that my engineering degree is worth a damn.

"I don;t want to have to get a job by wearing a short skirt (but I have done MUCH worse for a grade in college ;)

--Like what? Speak coherently? Type a term paper legibly?

Thanks for freaking us out right before finals Lat! I thought I could take this December easy.

STOP AND READ THIS!

Grades are the MOST important thing for big firm associates and in some cases partners. Do not slack off in your 2nd and 3rd year no matter what law school you went to Yale or Hofstra and what kind of offer you have. There is a greater than 60% chance that you will make a lateral move as an associate. The first thing law firms ask for are grades. If you don't have good grades you are OUT. There are even some firms who will ask for transcripts from partners making lateral moves with books of business. Why? They want to make sure that all attorneys at the firm are of relative equal academic standing. One of the reasons is that they want to avoid internal discrimination against those who have lower academic standing. If you are from hofstra and slacked off and ended up in the top 40% vs. the top 20% you may not get the best assignments.

I know as a law student you think this is ridiculous - but it is the truth. Grades will follow you your ENTIRE career. I don't care if you have experience at Skadden or Cravath or Weil or wherever - GRADES, GRADES, GRADES.

I cant really believe grades matter after 1L year. Im a 2L at a T14 and im pretty sure I got callbacks and offers from firms who barely understood what my 3.something GPA meant, nor cared. How can I take grades seriously knowing my resume is going to say 1) T14 school 2) Top 10 Vault firm 3) Body of work at said law firm that proves im not a joke? I guess that last part assumes I don't want to reinterview next year, but I think that goes for most students

And even though every firm I interviewed requested a transcript, that is not an indication that of how much they actually cared what it said. It seems like something firms just have to do.

I cant really believe grades matter after 1L year. Im a 2L at a T14 and im pretty sure I got callbacks and offers from firms who barely understood what my 3.something GPA meant, nor cared. How can I take grades seriously knowing my resume is going to say 1) T14 school 2) Top 10 Vault firm 3) Body of work at said law firm that proves im not a joke? I guess that last part assumes I don't want to reinterview next year, but I think that goes for most students

And even though every firm I interviewed requested a transcript, that is not an indication that of how much they actually cared what it said. It seems like something firms just have to do.

Hof1L is giving me flashbacks to the classic autoadmit schtiks. I call flame.

Hof1L: "I don;t want to have to get a job by wearing a short skirt (but I have done MUCH worse for a grade in college ;)"

Wow - can we open up this discussion to Hof1L's undergrad grades too?

Hof1L = Obvious Flame, possible hofstra professor troll w/ a fetish for younger students.

I second 2:49. Guess it's back to studying for Con Law...

to 2:42 p.m.:

Take Quinn as an example. For a few months earlier this year they were giving IP litigators with tech backgrounds a 25K bounty!

Now, Quinn - especially the Redwood Shores office - has plenty of people with a range of grades.

But they are unselective in the sense that as long as you don't have any really bad grades, Claude Steele (sp?) will hire you because they need warm bodies.

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For longer life, healthier flames, and a mellower tone!

Give the troll in your life the best!

Speaking of Quinn, what the hell is wrong with their website: http://www.quinnemanuel.com/

When having this discussion, we should consider the questions in various context. For example, WHERE an associate wants to lateral to is an important factor. If an associate at a V20 or > wants to lateral t oa V50 or < grades may not matter as much then if the associates want to lateral to a higher ranked firm. In the higher ranked firms (top 25-30) grades will almost always matter.....

God bless the Chicago grading system. 165-186 and no one knows what it means.

Someone asked about grading schemes at top schools. I graduated from Harvard in 2005. Basically there soemthing like 20-30% of the class (maybe closer to the 20% end) gets an "A" of some sort (A+, A or A-). The large bulk of each class gets B's -- in fact, a B- is sort of the professors' way of saying "shame on you." I've heard rumors of C's for utterly terrible work, but did not meet anyone that had gotten one (or at least anyone that admitted to getting one). Never heard of a D or F, have no clue what you would have to do (not turn in your final?) to rate that.

Not sure what other top schools are like. Also, top 10% of class gets magna, and I believe next 40% gets cum laude. Suma is based purely on GPA and is very rarely achieved.

I don't even know what a flame is?!? I just came here to put in my two cents, but everyone is so angry :) I wasn't implying anything sexual with my undergrad professor. I just flirted alot and would wear low cut tops and bend over his desk when I was talking to him. It worked great!!! But law school grades are anonymous.
I bet alot of the aggression is from people at fordham/ St. Johns/ Cardozo that got rejected from Hofstra. I still think Hofstra has a strong name - maybe not outside NYC, but definitely within Manhattan. Plus I hear law firms always hire cute girls :)

So what grades are required to lateral to a NYC V20, from a smaller market V100?

@2:50 "Body of work at said law firm that proves im not a joke"

What part of that "body of work" exactly are you going to show a prospective employer looking to hire you as a lateral? The confidential research memos you wrote, or the awesome confidential 2000-page diligence summary you cranked out that one weekend? Or are you planning on headlining a lot of briefs and publishing like crazy in your first few years? Will you waltz into your firm's HR office and ask them for your file because, you know, you're looking to lateral and need some backup for your resume? Or are you going to call up that partner you did all that great work for and tell him or her the same thing?

Believe it or not, you will probably walk into any lateral interview and the only info you'll be able to give them is the firm you work for, the department you're in, your transcript, and some generalities about the kind of work you've handled, and where you want to be in five years. Of those things, what matters most is a) that the person like you and b) your grades, and usually they see your grades first.

Agree with the above poster - If you're relying on mass mailing your transcript and resume around once you've practiced law for 2 or 3 years, you have bigger problems than grades - like the fact that no one likes you.

The reality is that at least in law firms, if you want to join a group, have a skill set that is compatible for the group, and are referred by a current member of the group, you're in very good shape.

Yes, there are firms that will ding on grades (Gibson comes to mind, if only from media attention from a few years ago), but seriously, would you rather work for a firm that will hire a qualified friend of a current group member that everyone's met and liked, or some random guy off the street just because his gpa was a fraction higher?

Most would choose the former, and it makes good business sense in terms of retention, because the referrals are more likely to stay.

If we can leave Hofstra for a moment- how much do we suppose grades factor into hiring at the USAO?

01:53 PM:

Hofstra is the 5th best law school in NY?

What are you smoking?

2:50 is a nut. Grades are important only because they can hold you back as a junior associate lateraling to another firm. It will affect you once you are a partner.

I care about grades to the extent I want to graduate with honors.

At least Hof1L is a sorta dirty flame.

Hof1L---who are you really or better yet what are you smoking--No one and i mean no one who has gotten into Fordham, Cardozo and St John's was rejected by Hofstra--guaranteed that Hofstra offered big bucks for them.

How badly does a single awful semester hurt lateral chances?

2:11
The only top schools I know of that don't have a normal grading system are Yale and Berkeley. I'm not really sure how it works, but I believe at Yale it's 10%/90% for H/P (honors/pass), and at Berkeley it's 40%/60% for H/P.

I don't know how this plays out in OCI, or how someone with straight Ps would be looked upon by potential employers.

Anyone else have an idea? Also, do these schools rank their students?

"Also, top 10% of class gets magna, and I believe next 40% gets cum laude. Suma is based purely on GPA and is very rarely achieved."

I'm curious - how is summa based solely on GPA and magna and cum laude aren't? Is there some kind of weighting system that determines class rank aside from GPA?

3:05 PM

Exactly. Even Pace is better than Hofstra. How one can even posit that Hofstra is better than St. Johns or Cardozo, well, it's incredulous.

i spent my summer at a NYC firm and they asked for our transcripts. We were told an offer decision would not be made until they recieved them. However, the recruiting girls told a couple of us (after a few drinks) grades didnt really matter unless they were really bad AND you did poor work over the summer.

It matters. A lot. Take it from a recruiter who deals with this every day. A single bad semester can kill you as a lateral, even if you're coming from a top tier firm. People will always want to know where even a single bad grade came from. And those who ended up doing well second and third years have real opportunities to upgrade.

To all you law students: Please don't slack after you get the summer job!

Here at Emory, grades don't matter because anyone who wants one gets a job in NY/DC.

Do they matter? Sure. But as long as you graduate from HLS-YLS-CLS-SLS-NYU in the top 2/3 of your class, I don't think it is a serious barrier to lateral transitions. Certainly, I don't think anyone from my HLS class had trouble moving because of grades.

They may be more significant for people trying to make unconventional moves to a different practice area. Someone who wants to go from GP --> Lit is going to have a lot more grade scrutiny.

Bottom line: if you're the type of person who decides to "coast" during the last two years of law school (when you learn more relevant substantive law), you will probably have bigger problems as a lawyer than your grades.

3:11--
I know a 2L at Boalt/BLS who got all Ps and still got offers from a few V100 firms.

The fact that so many posters are oblivious to the BLATANTLY OBVIOUS FLAME that is hofstra 1L doesn't say much for the collective intelligence of the readers of this blog.

Goddamn. This board is full of arrogant fucks.

some firms like gibson dunn review grades like hawks, even at the partner level. kinda retarded if you ask me once someone has demonstrated success past their junior/mid years. i think coasting through law school is really worth foreclosing your ability to work at gibson.

I think Hof1L has helped make this post a comment clusterf%$&

Hof1L is a butterface!

I love the posters talking down to Hof1L, not realizing that they are displaying to all their own ineptitude.

I think I actually know this person...there is only one girl that could be this dumb and I am 90% sure she sits in front of me in Torts. (Dumb, but also quite hot -- in the LI sort of way)

3:11,

Thanks. With 90% gettings Ps, sure is hard to discriminate based on grades. I guess things like prior work experience, personability, etc. would matter most.

Makes sense to me since law school grades have virtually nothing to do with your ability as a practicing lawyer...

As a data point:

I recently worked in an overseas office of a top NY law firm. A law school classmate, who happened to hail from the country where I was working and thus had the relevant, and hard-to-find, language skills approached me about passing her resume onto the hiring partner, as she was thinking of repatriating. This classmate worked at a top California firm in a directly relevant practice area.

The hiring partner's reaction: "is this California firm a 'name' firm"? Again, this was for someone with hard-to-find, and very relevant, skills in a booming market.

I do agree that 2L and 3L grades are important. But this episode suggests that working for Skadden (as opposed to, say, WSGR or Orrick) carries some weight when lateraling.

to 3:13

I did not graduate with honors (or was even close to doing so), so I don't remember the particulars. But I believe that the only ranking is GPA. Harvard has a strange GPA scale, it is 8 points instead of 4 points (see http://www.law.harvard.edu/ocs/employers/HLS_Grading_System.htm). And having read that link, I see I was wrong - it is top 10% magna, next 30% cum laude. You need a 7.2 to get summa, which is basically getting all A's (NOT A-'s) and a sprinkling of A+'s ... which is very difficult. A few truly famous names have gotten summa, but I don't think anyone in my class did.

Some people who make terrible grades after 1L year will have fabulous careers and some people who graduate summa or magna, Order of the Coif, etc., will have crappy careers. In my case, I am glad that I worked hard after 1L year because I know that my grades were taken into consideration in my lateral move to another Biglaw firm, in part because the partner I work for actually cares about such things. I'm sure that there are plenty of others who did not have the same experience. In fact, many firms hire lateral candidates from schools and/or with academic backgrounds that would have precluded them from being hired by the same firm as a first year. It also seems to be easier to make a lateral move as an ERISA, tax, or securities law expert than as a general lit or M&A associate. So the answer truly is "it depends."

If you are on track for a decent Biglaw job, you probably do not need to lose sleep over having the highest GPA possible for your entire law school career. However, unless things have changed drastically since I was in law school 5 years ago, I don't think that most law students truly appreciate that even though you think you love the firm that bought you all of those free lunches and took you on a fun booze cruise, it's unlikely that you will spend your entire career at that firm. If you are like me, you may end up living in a different city and having totally different goals several years down the road. It's really up to you whether to take a gamble and just enjoy your time in law school, but I have to agree with the people who said don't plan your life based on the assumption that you will stay at your first job forever.

3:18,

Welcome to ATL.

3:26, does Orrick = the suck? I always thought it was a really good firm.

17 days to exams and I am rading this crap. What an idiot.

3:02 (Hof1L) - "I wasn't implying anything sexual with my undergrad professor. I just flirted alot and would wear low cut tops and bend over his desk when I was talking to him. It worked great!!! But law school grades are anonymous." + "Plus I hear law firms always hire cute girls :)"

Well I must say your posts today are quite entertaining and what is even funnier are the idiots who are taking your posts serious and beleiving them. The people on here believing your posts are why this profession is so messed up in the first place, its full of smart people with no social skills who don't get sarcasm and can't take a joke. With that said, anyone who truly works at biglaw knows that firms NEVER hire cute girls!!!!

2:50,

Stop and read this:

You are full of it.

3:28: Oh, I see. Summa's not based on a curve. Got it.

does anyone have any info on lateraling after the 3rd year from a V20 *DOWNWARDS* to a lower-ranked firm with similar compensation in either the V50 or AmLaw100 (NYC markets only)? do grades matter less in these circumstances?

YLS does not rank, no magna or summa, nothing like that. H/P as mentioned above, with ratios varying wildly depending on professor, class, etc. A few people get the dread LP, but they're pretty rare. I slacked as much as anyone and still managed to avoid it. Failure is a unicorn. Does not exist.

What about going from V10 in NYC to V50-100 in Washington DC? Easy?

I went to a good school (Ave Maria) so I am pretty much set.

I second the request re grades/ AUSA gigs. I got slightly better than a B+ average from HLS, have a two-year district court clerkship... good chances, any chances, need to work at a firm first?

"does anyone have any info on lateraling after the 3rd year from a V20 *DOWNWARDS* to a lower-ranked firm with similar compensation in either the V50 or AmLaw100 (NYC markets only)? do grades matter less in these circumstances?"

short answer is yes, with a caveat. normally if you are going down in firm prestige, the new firm is happy to get a skadden guy or whatever, so grades matter a lot less. it is a good pick-up for them. on the other hand, if you are talking about a prestigious smaller firm boutique - like less than 100 lawyers - sometimes these smaller shops can be pickier than the big firms because they opnly bring a few people on during the year.

WTF Lat?

3:49, I would say good chances, but need to work at a firm first (unless maybe your judge has pull with the office you're applying to).

Does anyone know who of the V10 who asks for transcripts during the 2L summer and who doesn't?

i hate you now lat, this post is going to single handedly make the curve harder now that everyone is freaked out

what about none law corporate jobs? do they care about grades?

Lat,
I've heard from various people who have said that lateraling is almost impossible for senior associates at Biglaw firms who do not make partner at their current firm. Can this be true, even generally? If so, why? I'd like to hear from current associates who are looking to lateral or who have lateraled for advice on when you are the most marketable as an associate (especially in litigation) and whether it may or may not be true that the more senior you become the less exit opportunities you have.

Could you start a thread on this?

I went to a pretty good school, too (American Justice School of Law) so I'm pretty much set.

Baker Botts is a mediocre firm at best.

Baker Botts is a mediocre firm at best.

This thread has run its course, but I'll toss in my 2 cents anyway.

I summered at a BigLaw firm and, like every other law firm, they asked us to submit an updated transcript before the end of the summer. When I told our summer recruiting rep that I had forgotten to get a transcript, she essentially told me that because of my great work and outgoing personality, I needn't bother submitting the transcript.

The moral of the story is that you only need to maintain good grades if you have no social skills (e.g., you went to University of Chicago) and you do crappy work. Even then, good grades probably won't save you.

Baker Botts is a mediocre firm at best.

I heard that Skadden fired their top corporate partner because his gpa slipped in the second semester of his second year of law school 25 years ago. His wife left him for someone with a better GPA who spent less time web surfing and more time studying. Next thing you know, he was living in a slum with nasty hookers. Now he has an STD and can't afford treatment. I wish for his family that he had a website like ATL that would have prevented this all from happening to him. If only he knew how important grades were back in the 70s, he's be a happy partner, married, and crack and std-free.

I know someone who graduated from a really bad law school (TTTT) in 2001, has really bad grades (bottom 10%) but has really good connections (e.g. state supreme court clerkship and federal district court clerkship).

He had no problem getting hired by a V30 and lateral to another equally good (if not better) law firm.

So do law school grades matter? It depends. "Totality of circumstances" assessment is a much accurate prediction of one's BIGLAW job prospect.

ok, everyone says "solid" grades. Is there a consensus on what constitutes solid grades? If I make it through with above a 3.5 am I fine?

I can't believe I'm falling for the Hofstra1L flame, but on the off chance she's real:

Of course your career office shows stats indicating everyone who wants a job gets one. That's was career offices do - they paint a rosey picture for all of us law students. I'm at an equivalently ranked and positioned law school in LA, and if you're not at or near the top you're not going to get a job at a tip firm.

It might be true that "everyone" at Hofstra can find a job in Manhattan, but if that job's not at a tip firm I don't expect many of them will be living in the city while making $50K a year. If you're not at a top school, grades are about the only thing that matters when it comes to getting a job with BIGLAW. Loyola has a very good reputation in LA, but the truth of the matter is we're the third best law school in the area (yes, we're still ahead of Pepperdine and Southwestern), so if you're not top 15 - 20% you're not going to get a job at the firms that pay top dollar.

And that may be fine. Not everyone wants to be at the big firms, but to give yourself that option you had better study hard and nail some good grades.

# 3:33 - I think 3:26 was trying to say that WSGR and Orrick are top Cali firms but don't have the same name recognition as a Skadden outside of California (New York).

"Lat,
I've heard from various people who have said that lateraling is almost impossible for senior associates at Biglaw firms who do not make partner at their current firm. Can this be true, even generally? If so, why? I'd like to hear from current associates who are looking to lateral or who have lateraled for advice on when you are the most marketable as an associate (especially in litigation) and whether it may or may not be true that the more senior you become the less exit opportunities you have."

why would another firm want a 9th year who got passed over for partnership? what is the value in that? generally speaking, corporate associates have the most exit opps because they can go inhouse. also, in good markets, the partners are making so much rain they need senior associates to run their deals and supervise junior associates. what consitutes too senior? to me, prime lateral worth is 3-5 years. at the 5 year point you become less attractive. what the new firm wants is someone that knows enough so they don't need their hand totally held, but not someone who is so senior they make a ton of money and clients don't want them on their files because a 4th year can do that work. firms make the most money off of associates in those class years - so that is where the value is in terms of lateral movement. if you are a litigator and are senior, you better hope that you actually learned something your first few years as opposed to doc review.

I think everyone will be happy to know that I got treatment for my STD, I stopped turning tricks for crack money, I've been reinstated to the bar and I am more prestitious than I was only one month ago.

I owe it all to the Hofstra School of Law.

4:54,
thanks for the input. I'm still a little confused as to the exit options for senior litigators if they are looking to lateral and aren't up for partnership in their firm for another year or 2? Do they start their own shop or is it easy to make partner at a smaller firm with the experience and prestige of a biglaw job for 6-7 years? While you won't get paid as much as a partner at your big firm, you wouldn't be taking a pay cut either, right?

Dear Fired Skadden Partner:

You still can't spell. Back to grade school with you!

I am a lateral at a top 10 NY law firm. I think that grades matter up to a certain point (i.e. your grades can't be completely out of the usual range for that firm) but I think what is more important is your specialty. Last year firms were desperate for M&A and Finance lawyers, so firms were willing to lower their grade standards somewhat.

3:49, where do you want to work? S.D. Cal. hires one AUSA a year through the DOJ Honors Program, and typically is looking for law clerks, not 3Ls.

How is lateral hiring for 2nd year associates going to look this year? still booming for corporate associates post-boni payments in January? Grades still an issue at that point, or is it just looking for warm bodies?

I feel compelled to respond b/c most of the comments I've read are clearly from misguided students. I was on the recruiting committee as an associate of a Big Law firm in Manhattan. Grades matter.

Whether they advertise it or not, most firms have grade cutoffs. If you are a summer associate, firms will review your grades from your second year and will take grades into consideration when determining offers. Any significant dropoffs can result in a lost offer (even if the summer associate performed well on assignments). Grades are also an important factor when considering lateral associates. So keep up the grades! If you've worked hard your first year, why throw it all away in subsequent years? And if you haven't performed the way you wanted the first year, you can still get your GPA up and your efforts won't be wasted.

I attend a top 15 school. My first year I had the following grades:
1-A
1-B
3-B-
1-C+

Second year I received:
3-A
3-B+
1-B-
1-P

I have externed for a circuit judge and a public-interest law firm. Received several interviews for clerkships, but no offers. Discuss.

re: 5:15pm.

None of us care about you.

Discuss.

this is starting to look like the autoadmit message board. so this is where all those losers migrated to huh.

Compelled: No one is disputing whether your grades matter for getting an associate job. What is disputed is how long grades matter after you've entered the work force. There are a bunch of 2L's now terrifeid they won't make partner in 10 years because someone will point back to their Con Law 1 grade, which is preposterous.

dang! magliovelli ripped into you 5:15, but i second his vote. not much to discuss since your school is probably good enough to land you a job but clearly you have some social skill issues

I've seen firsthand how grades matter. I graduated in the middle of my class at a top 14 and I'm a third year now. I've had the toughest time trying to lateral. I can't even get interviews and I figure it's mostly because of my grades. I always assumed that as I got more senior my grades would matter less. That may be the case, but I find that a lot of firms, even firms that aren't Vault 50, still apply pretty tough grade standards. They can't evaluate what you've done in a law firm (some people just screw around for three years) so they turn back to the best indicator they have of your intelligence and work ethic: your law school grades. The funny thing is that associates who went to a lower first tier school and have above average grades have an easier time lateralling than top 14 students with middle of the road grades.

Every single person here assumes that the relevant transfer is from one BigLaw firm to another.

What if someone has no interest in lateraling between firms but rather, wants to go from, say a V5 firm to doing in-house work, or transferring to the business side altogether? Do law school grades really matter then?

"thanks for the input. I'm still a little confused as to the exit options for senior litigators if they are looking to lateral and aren't up for partnership in their firm for another year or 2? Do they start their own shop or is it easy to make partner at a smaller firm with the experience and prestige of a biglaw job for 6-7 years? While you won't get paid as much as a partner at your big firm, you wouldn't be taking a pay cut either, right?"

well - that is the dirty little secret that people don't tell you - there are very few options for senior litigators. you will always be able to get a job because you have good experience, but you will likely take a paycut - in some instances a large one - but you will work less. key is not waiting too long. leaving at year 6 will allow you to make partner at a smaller firm, or the satellite office of a less prestigious, out of state firm - generally with a 2 year look. waiting until you are officially passed over at year 9 makes you less marketable - at that level you are taking a pay cut. when deciding what firm to go to out of law school - especially in lit - you need to find out how much reponsibility they give young associates. satellite offices usually give you better "hands-on" experiecne which will help your career in the long run. a litigator needs to do a lot more forward thinking than a corp associate because a) you are not going in-house; and b) you are not making partner at your top 20 firm (despite what your partner told you)

with such a premium placed on the grades (particularly at a junior level like 2nd year corporate) - do you think it's wise to try to lateral to a highly regarded (but nowhere near Amlaw 200 - may be barely breaking 100k) local regional firm to get some good experience for a few years, or try to wait it out at my current firm with the hope that post-january, there will be such turnover that big firms become desperate for bodies and lower their hiring criteria? BTW, 3rd tier, middle of the pack grades, good corporate experience.

I am on the hiring committee for a Fortune 100 corporate law department. I can tell you definitively that law school grades matter if you want to come in-house.

However, if you want to work at the same firm you summered at until you get passed over for partner, then by all means, coast during 2L and 3L.

Grades mean nothing without a class percentage. I don't understand why firms don't appreciate this at the lateral stage but do at the summer associate stage.

Assuming the paycut is inevitable, if you lateral at year 6 as a senior litigator to a smaller firm in hopes of making partner, how much better can your hours possibly be? And at that point would it even be worth it since you're going to earn potentially the same or less as a partner at a small firm than as a senior associate (all in) at your big firm?
Senior litigators gotta go somewhere...but where!

do grades matter? maybe.

for many people, post-1L grades probably will not make much difference. for others, they will be important to getting a new job, etc. the takeaway? other than (perhaps) a slightly less active social life in law school, there is no downside to keeping up your grades. that being said, i wouldn't sweat it too much. just do the right thing.

Magliovelli - agreed. At a certain point (i.e. partnership), grades are not relevant but still important well into the sixth year in the context of lateral moves. And since I am now in-house, I can tell you that grades are still considered going from a law firm to an in-house position.

In the end, you pay so much for a law school education (I am shocked at how much you all now have to pay), why blow it off?

And for all of you at Tier 3 schools, keep in mind that the US Attorney in Manhattan went to Albany Law School.

Cardozo 3L, 5:26 is right on.

Choices are tough for senior litigators. I went in-house (rare opportunity) after my 5th year with a huge (50%) paycut. Trade-off: the hours are so good, it feels like I don't even work anymore.

If you don't make partner, your best (and most lucrative) option (in my humble opinion) is permanent senior associate (i.e., "counsel" or "non-equity partner") at a top firm.

If you go the mid or small firm route, you will have enormous pressure to bring in business, and will work just as hard or harder for less pay. I've been there, and this is the way the market is right now.

What if you want to transfer from a primary market to a secondary market?

5:40,
what kind of in-house opportunities are there for litigators? Especially in NY or DC?

If you (1) did not go to Georgetown Law Center and (2) have ever used "T14" in any context (other than in posing this question), please let me know.

Cordozo 3L -

Government of all-stripes (think local as well as SEC, DOJ, AUSA), and regulatory (i.e., public utility law departments). There are also rare opportunities that come up once in a while (if you have connections) to work at a large company managing litigation run by outside counsel with the potential to become General Counsel much farther down the road.

Well, if your grades are too low, and you don't make partner, you can always become a judge and offer clerkships to students with high grades, making them work long hours for peanuts.

More seriously, there is a sad truth that people don't realize how short term big-firm life is for the vast majority of people, and that most prospects aren't nearly as lucrative when done. The exception, of course, is if you can generate your own business--which is highly correlated with making partner anyway.

My point in making fun of the grades issues is that there is an underappreciation for the basic business model of law firms, and that ultimately a firm makes you partner because you can generate and/or sustain business (i.e., profit). If you are worth it to the firm, they will partner you. "Worth it" means that, on average, you're going to increase PPP rather than dilute them. That equation has very little to do with grades, and much more to do with your professional reputation and ability to handle clients, manage a team, etc etc. And your law school grades don't measure these skills.

Is it even possible to get a teaching position if you didn't go to Harvard or Yale? How would you go about it coming out of Biglaw?

Is it even possible to get a teaching position if you didn't go to Harvard or Yale? How would you go about it coming out of Biglaw?

ok.
I wish I had known all of this earlier. But thanks to yours and a few other insightful comments, my future as a litigator in biglaw NY doesn't look so bleak at the moment. I definitely wouldn't mind taking a paycut in the future to work as a federal prosecutor. Of course all of this planning will become moot once my music career takes off. Hazah!

5:49: Academia is notoriously pedigree-conscious. That said, I've seen a couple of professors get in via the writing program.

Grades matter.

I often reject resumes from lateral candidates based on law school gpa (there are some exceptions, of course, based on need, experience, etc.).

You law school students can justify to your hearts' content, but I don't ask for an explanation when I reject a resume. I just send the ding letter.

Good Luck.

Question:

Hypothetically, how difficult would it be to lateral to a biglaw firm with a major IP practice from an IP botique should the experience at the IP botique prove to be biglaw with a paycut, as some on this board have recently suggested?

200th!

200!

"Hypothetically, how difficult would it be to lateral to a biglaw firm with a major IP practice from an IP botique should the experience at the IP botique prove to be biglaw with a paycut, as some on this board have recently suggested? "

assuming you have good grades, associates can generally lateral to biglaw out of very small firms if they do IP, top real estate, tax and T & E - those are the main practice areas where the small shops do great work

"Exactly. Even Pace is better than Hofstra. How one can even posit that Hofstra is better than St. Johns or Cardozo, well, it's incredulous."

I know I'm late to this, but that is a totally improper use of "incredulous." I think you mean incredible. No, they're not substitutes.

6:20

with the exception of Roberts and Holland, which other boutiques do high end transactional tax work?

Thanks Lat and commenters! Great Post!

I'm a 2L who ran entirely on fear of not getting a job last year. It paid off and I got an offer from my #1 choice the 1st week of classes. Its been tough to stay motivated with studying this semester especially becuase Law Review and moot court work me like a dog.

Thanks for the kick in the rear! I only wished I had read this sooner and not a couple weeks before exams.

From my experience at an IP boutique, we routinely reject a LOT of V10 candidates because they spent the last 4 years doing crappy work. By the time you are a fourth year we expect to you to at least second chair a trial, conducted multiple depositions, etc, etc. Unfortunately we just don't see enough of that from most Biglaw associates.

5:23;

You didn't mention if you work for a big firm. The inference is that you don't. Maybe that is why you can't lateral.

"Any significant dropoffs can result in a lost offer (even if the summer associate performed well on assignments)."

This never happens. Grades are a rough proxy for work product. Work product is what matters.

5:15

T 15 won't cut it. UCLA sucks.

6:40 - It sucks because it's not T14? How's Georgetown treating you?

6:44:

UCLA sucks because it's an overrated dump.

6:49 - that sort of biterness is usually reserved for Trojan Law Students- am I right?

ROFL. 211 comments of poor flamers, XOXO posters, and dumbass morons who actually take them seriously. Fascinating.

I know first hand that grades matter. When I was interviewing to be the president of the United States they rejected me because I got a B in Fed Courts. Study up!

Hof1L to 160k!!

Lat,
Please conduct an in depth interview w/ Hof1L. Real or flame, only a genius could manufacture 200+ comments.

You know what's a good idea? Judging people by their academic performance when most of those people are under the assumption that they will not be judged by their performance. It's like judging them based on their MBE score. As long as they passed, who cares?

an acquaintance from my law school class summered as a 2L at Mayer Brown -- a middle of the road firm -- and let her grades slip in the second and third years. got a couple of Cs and one D. Mayer Brown requested her updated transcript -- along with everyone else's from her class -- and pulled their offer to her b/c of her grades.

an acquaintance from my law school class summered as a 2L at Mayer Brown -- a middle of the road firm -- and let her grades slip in the second and third years. got a couple of Cs and one D. Mayer Brown requested her updated transcript -- along with everyone else's from her class -- and pulled their offer to her b/c of her grades.

My response is...can't live your entire life worrying about the NEXT thing.

I'd like to achieve reasonably well academically this year. But, unlike the last two years, I simply refuse to pass up a good time socially to put in extra studying. Plenty of time to work in the years to come -- not enough time to enjoy myself during those same years.

[I'm a T2 3L, accepted offer at "BigLaw" for graduation]

6:39, it does happen.

8:01,

It is called pretext. Are you refusing to accept that you were fired for terrible work product, and trying to pin the blame on getting a B in con law?

6:53,

Not a trojan. But if I had to choose between USC and UCLA, I'd take USC in a heartbeat.

I have a friend who summered at mayer brown and doesn't remember most of it.

For the people who asked about getting AUSA jobs- answer is: it depends. Good grades are usually a given, but if you went to a top 14 or so school, they don't matter as much. The hiring criteria vary depending on who is the U.S. Attorney at the particular office you are applying to. Some like to hire former DAs, others love clerkships, still others like a "diverse" crop of AUSAs, and others like to hire litigators from certain firms. Good grades certainly can't hurt, though.

I am a 1st Year, looking to change locations due to family issues (marriage). My firm does not have an office in the market that I am looking to move to. Does anyone have any suggestions on how / when to go about this move without stepping on toes? The practice group I am in at the firm is an industry leader and I want to continue working in this area. Few firms in the market have this practice group.

So if a student drops from top 1/3rd to middle 50% is this usually enough for a no offer at the end of the summer or does something more drastic need to happen... like top 1/3rd to bottom 1/3rd?

3L grades to C-minus!

damn it, i shouldn't have slacked off all fall long.

I would like to congratulate Hof1L on a flame well done and thank him for entertaining me today. Best schtick I've seen in years.

GRADES MATTER
GRADES MATTER
GRADES MATTER
GRADES MATTER
GRADES MATTER
GRADES MATTER
GRADES MATTER

I have great connections and let me tell you it doesn't matter... GRADES MATTER!!!

I am totally stuck at my firm. Now I got the job because I can network, but getting out whoa that is another story all together.

dude, i cant believe i just spent the last 10 minutes tying to find comments relevant to the original post, instead i just got a fist full of feces in the form of elitist law school bashing. everyone knows hofstra is a pretty crappy school. can we move on now? losers.

Hof1L to replace Billy Merck

8:19 - that would be a huge mistake. Although USC is only one spot below UCLA in rankings, perception in town is that UCLA is undisputed best school in SoCal. Also USC costs significantly more and you have to deal with all of that school spirit nonsense

Grades totally matter. Alston & Bird Atlanta is going to turn down a 4th year securities lawyer lateral from Davis, Polk because her grades slipped 3L year from 3.6 to 3.3. Latham DC is going to turn down that 5th year Simpson, Thacher M&A associate because his grades fell from 3.6 to 3.3.

what - where did you hear that nonsense?

10:55 - Deal experience, being good at pitching clients, and just liking the person are not as important as grades.

The 10:55 post had to be sarcasm.

I envy the poster who has the time to come up with the ish below:

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10:54,

USC has the same biglaw placement in UCLA, except its students aren't as smart. Do you know why? The Trojan family. I would rather have the same chances of getting a good job with less competition. Plus, USC is $25k a year in-state.

At both USC and UCLA, bottom 50% is screwed. The best advice is to get into a top 10. In comparison, they makes USC and FUCLA look like Southwestern.

8:59,

If you believe that a big firm won't give you an offer aftering seeing your actual work product because your grades dropped, you should just drop out of school now. You have no common sense.

10:54,

Sorry. Wrote too fast.

USC has the same biglaw placement in UCLA, except its students aren't as smart. Do you know why? The Trojan family. I would rather have the same chances of getting a good job with less competition. Plus, UCLA is $25k a year in-state.

At both USC and UCLA, the bottom 50% is screwed. The best advice is to get into a top 10. In comparison, they makes USC and FUCLA look like Southwestern.

11:34

"they makes"? Someone needs to open up Strunk and White.

USC doesn't have quite the biglaw placement UCLA has - although the USC name always pulls fairly well in SoCal. Most of the big firms in California hire significantly greater numbers out of UCLA than USC. Also, look at bar passage rates. UCLA has beaten Boalt for the last few years and kills USC.

I don't go to GULC, but to be fair, there is some significance to the term "T14":

There are exactly fourteen schools that have ever earned a top ten spot. These schools, listed below, have seen their ranking within the top fourteen spots shift frequently, but have not placed outside of the top fourteen since the inception of the annual rankings.[16] Because of their variable placement within the top ten, but remarkable consistency of these fourteen schools at the top of all 180+ schools, they are occasionally referred to collectively as the "Top Fourteen" in published books on Law School Admissions,[17] undergraduate university pre-law advisers ,[18] professional law school consultants,[19] and newspaper articles on the subject.[20] Facetiously, they are also referred to as the "Top Ten".

[edit] Schools that consistently rank in the top 14
The "Top Fourteen"[citation needed] schools according to US News and World Report Rankings are (in alphabetical order):[21]

Boalt Hall School of Law, University of California, Berkeley, in Berkeley, CA.
Columbia Law School, Columbia University, in New York, NY.
Cornell Law School, Cornell University, in Ithaca, NY.
Duke University School of Law, Duke University, in Durham, NC.
Georgetown University Law Center, Georgetown University, in Washington, DC.
Harvard Law School, Harvard University, in Cambridge, MA.
New York University School of Law, New York University, in New York, NY.
Northwestern University School of Law, Northwestern University, in Chicago, IL.
Stanford Law School, Stanford University, in Stanford, CA.
University of Chicago Law School, University of Chicago, in Chicago, IL.
University of Michigan Law School, University of Michigan, in Ann Arbor, MI.
University of Pennsylvania Law School, University of Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia, PA.
University of Virginia School of Law, University of Virginia, in Charlottesville, VA.
Yale Law School, Yale University, in New Haven, CT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_school_rankings#Schools_that_consistently_rank_in_the_top_14

Gooooooooooo Bruins!!!!

we'll put all you U$C brats in your place again on Saturday...AND we'll take your jobs too....

(damn, all this petty cattiness is rubbin off on me)

Hof1L is the best troll since Loyola2L. I say we put Hof1L up at the Pasadena Ritz anytime!

I'm a 3L at a top 20 school. I've accepted with a biglaw firm in Chicago but might go back to my small rural home state later in life. Will small market firms ask about grades if I try to lateral from a big firm in Chicago after 3-5 years?

First, if you went to a top law school, your grades are probably irrelevant to0 most biglaw employers since you were obviously smart enough to get in. Because the law school admissions process is comprehensive, it speaks a lot more than how well you did in civil procedure.

Second, U$C SUCKS!!! Go Bruins!

This thread is complete B.S. Grades might matter a little, but if you are telling me that "if your grades slid from 3.6 to 3.3" you can't get a lateral from Alston & Bird you guys are freaking nuts. A 3.3 was more than high enough for a job as a first year, why the hell would it get progressively harder? It makes no sense that firms would want HIGHER grades for laterals. If I can get a summer offer my 2L year at a firm with a 3.3, there's no reason someone can't get a lateral gig with a 3.3. Like some guys have said, grades are a proxy for work product (like the LSAT is a proxy for law school performance). Why would a firm care about a "proxy", when the have the information that grades are supposed to proxy for?

My sense is that this thread is for gunners who need to assure themselves that the A's they got 2L and 3L mean something more than they really do.

Well a few alumni from Hofstra work at some of the best firms on Long Island, and they make pretty good money. I asked the career services woman about these firms, and she said they all had top grades, journals, etc. I think I will send my resume to these firms - does anybody know which big Long Island firms are worth working for, and how well they pay? Thank you :)

Because the only information we're going on here is anecdotal, here goes. I know a dude (it's not me, actually) who bombed after his first year. I mean bombed - several Cs. He has worked at two BIGLAW firms since graduating, so lateralling was clearly no problem. He was on Law Review, was a very good writer (if a bit of a slacker), and was a great interviewer. It truly all depends on the firm's needs, the market, etc. Good grades can never hurt you, of course, but a slip doesn't doom you forever. If it did, a hell of a lot of lawyers would be out of a job.

You guys really shouldn't be worrying about grades at all, not while manbearpig is still out there on the loose. I am totally serial.

I'm curious. What about prosecution jobs? My impression is that turnover is much higher so as long as you have other good credentials, your grades will not have as much impact (if not a high GPA). Anyone here know about grades affecting prosecution jobs?

i worked my butt off, just missed top 10% at cardozo, and have no job.
so, if you're right at that cut-off point for your school, grades matter a great deal

"This thread is complete B.S. Grades might matter a little, but if you are telling me that "if your grades slid from 3.6 to 3.3" you can't get a lateral from Alston & Bird you guys are freaking nuts. A 3.3 was more than high enough for a job as a first year, why the hell would it get progressively harder? It makes no sense that firms would want HIGHER grades for laterals. If I can get a summer offer my 2L year at a firm with a 3.3, there's no reason someone can't get a lateral gig with a 3.3. Like some guys have said, grades are a proxy for work product (like the LSAT is a proxy for law school performance). Why would a firm care about a "proxy", when the have the information that grades are supposed to proxy for? "

sure - you can FIND a job if you currently work for a vault 200 firm. grades matter for those who want to work for the best of the best. if you are at a firm ranked in the 50's and want to work for a top 10 M & A practice to get an in-house job, sure as shit grades matter. for those that want to blissfully live in ignorance about grades not counting, i say your uppance will come!

" grades matter for those who want to work for the best of the best"

Well, of course. That's not what this thread is about.

If you're a gunner who is trying to transfer from your v50 to a v10, obviously grades matter a lot. I imagine the majority of people pondering this question are people who, when they lateral, will lateral down. I know that's what I'd like to know about.

11:48,

First, UCLA has only beaten Boalt a few times in bar passage. This is because Boalt has severe affirmative action and Boalt, unlike UCLA, does not teach to the bar. UCLA is a trade school whose bottom 50% can only obtain insurance defense jobs.

Guys, I know this may be difficult, but please don't be morons. Firms have to ask to see your transcripts to know that you graduated. Less diligence would be actionable.

Grades truly matter. I had crap grades at Cardozo but had a lot of contacts. Instead of working my ass off in school, I worked my ass off in networking. I snagged a biglaw offer and worked it. My grades were a huge deal to the firm and the negotiation for the offer took several months and a few months of work to prove myself. My work spoke louder than my grades, but they will always hold me back from certain firms and all bigfirms will request my transcript for at least the next 10 years whether I'm a partner or not. All this came from the partner than gunned to have me hired. I think I am the anomaly. Most of the time, your grades are what gets you hired.

That said, grades only open the door for you. They do not keep your job. Once you get your foot in the door, you need to prove yourself. I work with some unique people. We were interviewing some summer candidates a few weeks ago and one of them was recommended to us but had so-so grades. I liked her and so did the hiring partner. 90% of being a lawyer is showing up and doing the work. The other 10% is talent. If you are recommended as a good worker - that's proof of the 90%. That person got an offer over people with stellar grades and a good school.

Boalt has severe affirmative action? Ever heard of prop 209 and that pesky little fact that affirmative action is illegal in California?

I noticed something:

Hofstra 1L
Loyola 2L
Cumberland 3L

Now we just need a 4L (part-time) and an LLM student from other crappy law schools. With their powers combined, they can change the legal profession, or at least humor us on ATL.

2:55,

You are naive. Have you come across any "affirmative action police"? You think you can't bring up race in a personal statement, or mention certain clubs or activities pertaining to a particular group?

Boalt is generous.

in reference to Boalt... how hard is it to really get into a school like that (meaning a top ten) I'm just curious because I would really like to attend Berkeley for various reasons. Also after reading this thread it seems that the grade debate is undecided; however, it almost seems as though there is a consensus that a school like Boalt will land a good job, assuming of course one earned decent grades. Also since I live in Wisconsin, the fact that I could potentially earn good money over the summer working at a good law firm is very appealing to me (considering out of state tuition there is very expensive). Also if i were to not get admitted into a top 10, would it be worth while for me to get my masters and take another crack at it?

3:07: Don't do the masters simply to bide your time before getting into a top program. If you really, really want to go to law school and would be happy living in Wisconsin, go to your very well-respected state law school (you're lucky you have one). Sure, Boalt will open many more doors to you than Wisconsin will, but you'll also be restricted by your loans. I'm sure that the Milwaukee legal market, unlike SF/NYC/etc., isn't flooded by out-of-state lawyers.

Hofstra 1L, have you considered investing in a JD/MBA from the prestigious Zarb school of business at Hofstra University? A Zarb MBA vastly increases your marketability regardless of your law school grades.

Hof1L, please tell me your dealer. It looks like you are getting the best drugs Long Island has to offer.

Hof1L, I hope this is all a big ruse. If you earnestly believe everything you said is correct, I'm going to complain to the office of admissions about instituting a test for prospective admission candidates to prevent deluded morons like you from getting into this school. We're trying to raise the reputation of this school and your comments are just making it worse for all of us. You have to be in the top 5th or so of your class to be considered for a big firm job. There are exceptions to the rule which you definitely won't fall under.

Anyone that is sweating 3L grades is an idiot. The trick is to simply solidify your GPA after 2L year. How do you do this? Check to see if your school allows you to take non-law classes on a p/f basis (or language classes). Top those P/F classes off with some stupid stuff like moot court or clinic director (probably P/F), study abroad one semester on P/F basis and you are golden!

Why are grades more important for lateral litigators than lateral transactional lawyers?

currently studying for my tax final and felt compelled to skim this again.

B/B+ student at T10 school with summer job at V20 law firm.

when i get my inevitable C in tax because it seems batshit incomprehensible to me, will I lose my offer?

hofstra students take 1L civ pro over the course of 2 semesters, grow some testicles i took civ pro at st johns with the mighty prof. alexander in one semester any respectable law school would not baby their 1Ls by breaking up civ pro into 2 semesters, i just wanted to get that off my chest that class is insane

Had some C's the first year and have a low B average. Hopefully, can get to the top of the class by the end of the 2nd year. Is there anyone out there who had a similar experience and overcame, meaning did well in 3L interviews and got firms offers in 3L OCI after improving their grades the 2nd year? Thanks.

This is all B.S. At many top 10 schools, there are V10's (Weil and Latham come to mind) that routinely take people with 3.2-3.3 GPA's. Even more selective firms like Davis Polk, Simpson and Cleary routinely take people with 3.5's- and thats as a law student where grades are the most important. I'd imagine that becomes less as a lateral. If you are an average student at a top 10 school, I DOUBT that there will be any firms that reject you for grades as a lateral outside of cravath, wachtell, sullivan.

Two questions:

What are you feelings on going to law school part-time and transferring your way into a full-time position at a T5 school?

Is is better to be top 10% at the worst law school in nyc (new york law) or bottom at let's say... columbia?

Afterthought: what about the schools that don't even administer grades....how do companies differentiate btwn. candidates?

Two questions:

What are you feelings on going to law school part-time and transferring your way into a full-time position at a T5 school?

Is is better to be top 10% at the worst law school in nyc (new york law) or bottom at let's say... columbia?

Afterthought: what about the schools that don't even administer grades....how do companies differentiate btwn. candidates?

Re: "Severe Affirmative Action at Boalt."

You posit that diversity admissions policies decrease the academic quality of a school's student body? That sounds flawed and latently racist; maybe you should just abandon the debate about which CA school is MOST elite, because it seems that soon you'll try to decide the issue based on which school has the least "diverse" student body...ridiculous.

first!