sign me up! i'd take a job as a janitor just to get inside a big law firm! i'm pathetic!

So if you are a 2nd tier associate at a 2nd tier firm, what does that make you, exactly?

T-2 squared.

question is...how much will these "permanent contract attorneys" be paid?

And what type of job prospects would they have if they left?

And would people REALLY want to work as a second-tier associates? I'd rather go to a small or medium regional firm than be known as "second-tier"

isn't this the same thing as a staff attorney? lots of firms have staff attorneys.

It's not new at all. It's called being a "staff attorney"

This is just the beginning of firms slowly separating litigation and corp compensation.

Staff attorneys aren't normally doc review monkeys are they? We use contract attorneys for this kind of stuff. We bring them in for a week or two and then get rid of them.

This is recycling "staff attorney" with "associate" in the title. Hard to see what else is new.

11:55: Young corporate associates do as much document review as litigation associates, they just call it "due diligence."

This basically confirms that McDermott is not a serious player in NY.

CCC-/C (S&P/Moody's) on negative watch

i dont get it - you only get paid 25% less to work 30-40 hours. Regular associates are working alomst double that and they only get paid 25% more - seems unfair to me. sign me up

also, if they are only going to pay 25% less, but now have to give bnenefits, it is really going to firms save that much money?

Greenberg matches "special" bonus!!!

From the actual article:

"At a firm retreat in October, the 1,000-lawyer firm decided to create a cadre of staff lawyers outside the partnership track who will be paid less, work less and charge less per hour. Having a flexible separate staff to move from big litigation to big litigation could help McDermott make the best use of its high-priced associates. Other Cost Control Options

Other firms are taking more measured approaches to keeping the costs of high-paid associates under control.

The idea is that the new hires — the firm is looking into starting with a pilot group of 15 — will be lawyers "with good pedigrees" who have practiced for a few years but don't want to deal with big-firm hours, Mallory said. Instead, they'll put in more like 30-40 hours, and be paid something like 25 percent less, though an exact pay range hasn't been decided."

A fucking 30 hour week for $120,000/yr? Obviously someone is smoking crack.

I'm guessing the job pays 25% less than what a first year makes, but that pay increases are marginal at best. Also, I'm assuming no bonus, special or otherwise.

So they might make $120,000 their first year, then $125k, $130k, etc. By third year, they're making just under half what a third year associate makes (with special bonus).

Also, since they're doing doc review most of the time, a higher percentage of their hours are likely to be billable. So while a typical associate may work 60 hours a week and bill 40, a typical Super-Staff-Attorney may work 40 hours and bill 35.

Wait - you mean the attorneys at McDermott now aren't considered second tier?

Greenberg? Confirm Lat CONFFFIIIRRRMMMMM

You get off by trashing L2L yet you're a back-up blogger on a site that's a publicity stunt for a Lateral Link? Get off it.

If Greenberg matched, that is huge news. If they didn't, I'm going to subpoena Lat, his ISP, and the firm that 12:01 posted from to find out whose computer that post came from. Then I'm going to teach that poster a lesson in responsible posting.

Of course not. It's Greenberg.

If they are paying 120 for a 40 hour work week with no big responsibility who cares what percentage it is of the partner track.

The question is whether there would be any dignity attached to it.

If Greenberg matched, I could not have picked a better day to go have dinner with my friends from Greenberg.

/free churasco, here I come.

never take a staff attorney job -- no matter what the firm calls it.

it's career suicide.

that is all.

An HBS '06 alum started a business last year--backed by a former McKinsey CEO, and the research director of HLS--that outsources this work to India. It's all the rage these days. Analysts expect him to take the company public for 1-2 billion within five years. Here's their website:
www.clutchgroup.com

Doesn't Proskauer Rose have permanent "law clerk" positions for some JD's? How gosh-awful.

You guys seem to be forgetting that in NY, people only making $120k tend to live in boxes on the side of the street. This might be liveable in other markets, but not NY.

Unless you want to spend all your free time moonlighting at another job to make ends meet, that is.

How dare Lat take a day off this time of year!!??

12:16,

You are an exaggerating buffoon. If someone makes $120k, and because they just moved to NY from Philly, they "have to" live in Manhattan, lest, god forbid, someone call them B&T, then they will live in a small one bedroom. If they are okay with Brooklyn or Hoboken/Jersey City, $120k is pretty decent money.

12:16

Funny, I don't see all my friends (recent college grads) who are first year analysts at McKinsey and Merrill Lynch sleeping in boxes on the side of the street. But their total compensation came to about $120-130K. Hmmmm....

Greed is good, but let's not go overboard with the sense of entitlement and lack of perspective.

I highly doubt this new second tier of document reviewing "associates" will actually be working 40 hour weeks, more like 60 hour weeks for less pay and w/out partnership track. As many have already posted, it's called a staff attorney position. Most big firms have them and it's nothing new, regardless of what title they apply to it.

The ironic part is the McDermott associates are already second tier.

12:16 - You are not a New Yorker. Prior to law school I made $40k a year...I lived just fine, in Queens.

Yes, the cost of living in NYC has gone through the roof, due to the influx of yuppies and an insane real estate market, but this comment, like the ones I've seen on other threads about how you need $250k+ to live in New York, or how any decent apartment costs $3,000+. ARE YOU PEOPLE DELUSIONAL? I'm assuming this is all the people who are afraid to venture out of a 10-block radius in midtown.

12:16,
You also assume the individual is in a single income home. If the person is a DINK (that's Dual Income, No Kids), then that $120k for 30-40 hours sounds pretty good b/c the other half can make up the rest.

I think it's a great idea. Contract attys will now be full-fledged BigLaw employees, which enables them to get insurance and other benefits. In addition, I would hope that the system would also provide a way for superstar contract attys to earn their way into a regular associate position. I recognize that this whole idea creates a "second class citizen" problem, but that problem is there regardless of whether it's formalized or not. This way ppl who wanted to hop onto the BigLaw gravy train but didn't get a spot the first time around may be able to get in the back door.

if Greenberg matched, I bet it'll only be for the NY office. still pretty good for NY'ers at the firm though.

And, as a P.S., I work at a small firm, make less than $120k, am married with a wife who makes a good salary who I get to see as much as I want, and we own our 2-bedroom apt in Brooklyn (1 stop on the train from Manhattan).

12:16-
$120k in ANY city is a substantial amount of money. Do you honestly believe that everyone that lives in Manhattan makes as much money as BigLaw associates/bankers? It wasn't that long ago that regular associates started out at $125k...I highly doubt that any of them lived in boxes (well, perhaps the fancy boxes from Sub-Zero refrigirators). The point is that anything over six figures is a comfortable life depending on how you allocate your paycheck.

Breaking NEWS: Just got this memo:

We are pleased to inform you that as of January 1, 2008, your base salary will increase to $____. Also you will be receiving a December Supplemental Compensation payment in the amount of $____. If you participate in the Direct Deposit Program, this amount, less tax and withholdings, will be deposited into your account on December 21.

S&C matches bonuses and raises first years to $175!!!

GREENBERG DID NOT MATCH. They don't even pay market bonus and they have a lot of compression for mid-levels and senior associates.

Did S&C not bifurcate the bonus into a normal "year-end" bonus and a "special Cravath style" bonus?

12:25

The whole point of living in NYC is to live in Manhattan - thats why people go to NYC!

And if you want to live decently (above a college students standard of living) you will be paying rent ranging from $2500-$4000 per month depending on whether or not you want a roommate.

Given this, starting salaries should really be $250K+ in order to compete with the $195K you can get in DC and Boston (since lots of NYC firms now give the same salary nationwide)

Staff attorneys have been around forever, and at many firms, they do a lot of doc review and due diligence. We only have contract attorneys at my firm.

Making the jump, however, from staff attorney to regular associate, is pretty difficult, and you usually get minimal to no credit for that time.

But - $120k! That's crazy good for that type of work and those hours.

Breaking NEWS: Just got this memo:

We are pleased to inform you that as of January 1, 2008, your base salary will increase to $____. Also you will be receiving a December Supplemental Compensation payment in the amount of $____. If you participate in the Direct Deposit Program, this amount, less tax and withholdings, will be deposited into your account on December 21.

S&C matches bonuses and raises first years to $190!!!

12:36 - The bonus is 'Cravath' style. The raise is the bigger news however.

""Instead, they'll put in more like 30-40 hours, and be paid something like 25 percent less, though an exact pay range hasn't been decided."

"A fucking 30 hour week for $120,000/yr? Obviously someone is smoking crack."

---------

I'm inclined to read "put in . . . 30-40 hours" as "bill 30-40 hours," not "be present in the office 30-40 hours." So really, we're still talking 1800-2000 a year, none of which is remotely interesting or challenging. Sounds exactly like it is -- a job for people who can't do better.

So is it $190 or $175? Either way, it smells like BS

Lat/Merck--confirm S&C raise in base and match of special bonus

POST the memo!!!

12:39 - First years are at $175 not $190. Otherwise you got the same memo I did.

12:04 got it right - but i think is being too generous in projected compensation - sure in the 2nd tier you're going to be making $120k your first year but you are NEVER going to be making the type of money that a partner-tracked 4 or 5th year makes.

I think the most important thing here is that, just like normal contract attorneys, there is no where to move up to. Taking a permanent position like this at a firm may offer a little more job security, but there is zero possibility for job advancement. While most BigLaw associates will never make partner in BigLaw, they at least have other options available - making partner at a smaller firm, BigLaw Special Counsel, going in house somewhere, etc. This "second-teir" won't have those options since they won't even be getting any useful legal experience.

This is only a good option for people who don't really care about their careers(or who aren't in a position to be picky) but need or want more money than they could make at their other options. But in the long run, a person who took a low-paying government or small firm job would probably have a greater liklihood of making more money, since they would have some real skills.

175!!!

POST the S&C memo!!! Thanks!

Of course it's bs, 12:40. Have you not been to this site before?

I call BS on the S&C memo. Raises and bonus amounts are publicized to associates by one memo detailing the whole structure. Clearly, this is not true.

Breaking NEWS: Just got this memo:

We are pleased to inform you that as of January 1, 2008, your base salary will increase to $____. Also you will be receiving a December Supplemental Compensation payment in the amount of $____. If you participate in the Direct Deposit Program, this amount, less tax and withholdings, will be deposited into your account on December 21.

S&C matches bonuses and raises first years to $260!!!

S&C to blank checks!

CLEARY JUST SENT AROUND A SPECIAL BONUS MEMO, MATCHING.

The rumors are true!!!

S&C = BS. Right? Not that I don't believe it, just that someone would have posted a memo without ridiculous shifting numbers. Right?

YAWN. Staff attorney by another name.

It must be a slow day at the firms since we're trying to amuse ourselves with fabricated rumors of raises and firms matching boni.

It's true. S&C just raised first year salaries to $800k. 5th years will be making $1.5M next year. In your face, Cravath!

Why hasn't Billy confirmed or denied the S&C business?

Question: Could or would such a position (or an equivalent "staff attorney" position at other firms) act as a safety net for regular associates who are given "the talk" at review time? In other words, has anyone heard of an associate who has the option to either leave in a little while or be demoted immediately (but stay with the firm on a permanent non-partner track)?

S&C is also paying first-year bonuses of $7M. Sixth years will be getting $20M bonuses. The firm was very concerned about the possibility of mass defection to I-Banks and hedge funds and felt it needed to be competitive with them on bonuses. I'm happy to benefit from it.

S&C does not pass around formal memos detailing a salary structure. Instead, it individually informs each associate what his/her salary and bonus are (although, of course, the salary and bonus are standard throughout each associate class). The memos match the precise format S&C typically uses. The total salary structure can only be constructed by getting copies of the memos sent to members of each class.

I can't say whether the numbers are true, but the first poster is clearly an S&C Assoc or former Assoc. Some of the later ones are probably fakers.

-- blissfully ex-S&C Associate

REALLY, CLEARY JUST MATCHED THE SPECIAL BONUS. NOT KIDDING.

This is a good idea to get the first tier associates more substantive work and cut costs for clients, but what I don't like about it is the culture it may create between "second tier" and other associates.
Re: people act like there aren't tons of people in NY who make under 100K, or like the ones who do live in the pjs. Either way I feel the point and do think that we should be compensated to be a bit closer to the lifestyles of our counterparts in other states... it's kind of ridic that to live like our Houston friends we'd be making 400K.
I don't think we'll go up-- clients aren't having it-- not right now.

Bilaam - or the first poster found the 2006 memo in ATL's archives, changed the date, and waalaa.

I may be stating the obvious here, but could the S&C poster be misinterpreting their memo? It says that starting Jan 1 their base salary will increase - but even without raises everyone but stub first years are getting salary raises on Jan 1 by virtue of moving up a year.

Interesting news Merck. Sadly, I've already gotten two no interview rejection letters from them. You can only apply once a year (I can't apply more than once a year can't I?)

So according to 12:57, this could be real (the first one)! Why hasn't Lat or Merck commented on this?

I may be stating the obvious here, but this S&C thing is obviously bogus and no more plausible than every other S&C to $190 rumor that's been floated here every other week for the past 6 months.

yeah, my name says it all...

The S&C memo is in the correct format, I think this is legit.

We were just trying to goad Merk into actually devoting a post to this so we could all laugh at him for being so easily duped. Of course there's been no raise.

"How dare Lat take a day off this time of year!!??

Posted by: Busy Season | November 2, 2007 12:19 PM"
-----------------------------

I repeat my prior post, especially for today!!! Can we get confirm/deny on the S&C news, and Cleary's match, or do we have to gravitate to WSJ blog?

It's not real you retards....

Yes, Merk, please post a confirm/deny on S&C so we can all ridicule you for being idiotic enough to entertain this.

I know that King & Spalding in Atlanta has been doing something like this for several years now with their "discovery center"

They pay attorney 55k a year with no other benefits (health insurance, etc) to do doc review and other BS

FYI, some news from the real world . . .

Look at this Loyola job. It wants graduates, and for the premium salary of $20/hour, asks for high class rank, work experience and LAW REVIEW! This awful awful job is what three grueling years of study and $120,000 of tuition get you.
Biglaw people need to realize how bad it is in the real world.
……………………
Employer Name: xx
Contact Name: xxx
Address: xxx
City: Torrance, CA xxx
Telephone: xx
Facsimile: xx
E-Mail: xx
Description: HOURS: Part-time. DURATION: Contract. SALARY: $20.00 per hour QUALIFICATIONS: Recent graduate with a positive attitude, good work ethic and who is a team player. Class ranking, law review as well as prior work experience will be considered. JOB DESCRIPTION: Research and writing pre-trial pleadings including trial brief and pre-trial motions. This is a two to two and a half week contract project, approx. 4-8 hours a day. EMPLOYER PRACTICE/DESCRIPTION: Civil litigation, solo practitioner FIRM SIZE: One. HOW TO APPLY: Submit resume, cover letter and writing sample via e-mail to xxx or call for appointment.
Date Entered: 11/01/07
Job ID: 419563
…………………..
For comparison, consider:
WANTED DELIVERY DRIVERS!!! $20 per/ hr

Reply to: xxx
Date: 2007-11-02, 8:05AM PDT
WANTED
DELIVERY DRIVERS
$20 per hour
(PART TIME ONLY)
Must Have Car!!!
Call us at 281-679-1959

Compensation: $20 per hour
This is a part-time job.
Principals only. Recruiters, please don’t contact this job poster.

Maybe this is a crazy guess, but could it be that the first poster actually is an S&C associate, who knows the correct format, but is just effing with us?

This is a great system, but it would be even better if they did what the English Premier League does in soccer, and adopted the concept of "relegation." Each year, the 2d tier associates who performed in the top 10% of the 2d tier group would be promoted to a regular associate slot, and the bottom 10% of regular associates would be relegated to the ranks of the 2d tier for the upcoming year. Sure, you might have people bouncing back and forth between 1st and 2d tier every other year, but think of how much more entertaining it would make firm gossip and firm politics.

Bravo, 1:18. Except that the two tiers' tasks would be non-comparable. That's the whole point. It doesn't follow that the top 10% of document reviewers should take the place of the bottom 10% of brief-writers. Though the absurdity might just make it that much more entertaining.

I don't understand why this is making news. Cravath does this with "discovery attorneys," and most other big firms have permament discovery/staff attorneys who handle this type of work.

Loyola 2L -

You're right these people just don't get it. I am top 20% of my class at Cumberland and have nothing but a stack of rejection letters to show for it.

C3L, maybe before wasting $$ and three years of your life you should have done an iota of research, which would have quickly revealed to you that the job prospects of a Cumberland Law School (??) graduate are nil. Blame yourself, loser.

What the hell is Cumberland? Where I'm from they're a line of some pretty kick-ass convenience stores, the one we call Cumby's 2000 is even open on thanksgiving!

Cumberland School of Law was one of the most prestegious law schools in the nation......prior to the civil war

If these permanent contractors are called "Associates" will that hurt the lateral prospects of current MWE Associates? Will people making hiring decisions at other firms assume that laterals from MWE are all contractor grade?

Cumberland is tier 3. If you are in the top 20%, that shouldn't mean no job at all! If these tier 3 (or tier 4) schools aren't graduating students with job, they should either beef up their career services or stop taking as many students. Period. Anything else is asking people to rely on false hope.

It's called the Mommy track.

there are some people that transferred to my school this year from tier 2 schools, which i would assume means they did quite well there first year. nonetheless they're all having difficult times finding employment for next summer.

Come on you old son of a gun and let Buster do a line off your boner

"[S]ome firms quietly turn to contract attorneys, or even ship grunt work overseas," but MW&E is proud to keep the grunt work in house. True patriots!

. . . 99 . . .

Breaking news: DLA Piper just raised to offices in Republic of Congo and Bolivia.

Perhaps we should call them "non-equity associates"

I've considered launching an outsourcing/doc review firm here in Jackson, MS. The location has a number of advantages, some of which are:

(1) Twice-daily flights to BWI/DCA, EWR, and MDW/ORD. Many more flights to ATL and HOU/IAH. Attorneys from outside firms needing to visit locally, or locals needing to head to any major city can get in and out on the same day, if necessary.

(2) Office space is insanely affordable. I can get premium space downtown for under $18/sq. If I avoid one of the office towers and pick a smaller location just outside of downtown, that price goes even lower.

(3) We have a great telecommunications infrastructure. WorldCom/UUNet was based here in Jackson. Consequently, we have an unusual concentration of services, at low prices. I also have access to a large number of technically competent employees to ensure that electronic doc review isn't interrupted with unnecessary downtime or system problems.

(4) Our cost of living is low, and our "high end" firms have kept salaries low. There are plenty of MS, AR, TN, and AL-barred attorneys open to salaries as low as $40,000. Some of our most prominent local firms start their first year associates out at $60-70,000 below NYC market. The State is willing to offer other financial incentives which make sending work to Mississippi even more financially responsible.

(5) The low pay doesn't translate into a poor standard of living for staff. Median household income in 2004 was $34,278. Housing costs and other expenses are drastically below that of any major city. We have some incredibly good schools, and a number of recreational opportunities. Further, we foster a friendly "community" atmosphere here in the South that isn't prevalent in other places.

Instead of having Tom the Temp griping about the sweatshop he works in this week, employees at my firm would have respectable offices, a constant amount of work (the goal would be to have the work done at our site, and not at the location of the sponsoring firm), and the ability to have much more control over their lives and their time than it seems many of the current temporary doc review gigs provide.

Preliminarily, some more agreement with the consensus that 12:16 is one of those who's never been to New York, or has never lived there, or, in some ways worse, has now lived there for quite some time, but since s/he's been in biglaw indentured servitude since arriving, has never gotten to explore New York enough to realize that one can live quite comfortably for $30k/year. If you work at Cravath, and to be close to the office, live in the 50s, and eat around Times Square most meals of your life, then yes, I can understand.

11:57(a) is right -- plenty of firms already have staff attorneys because they realize that, assuming the client isn't unnecessarily demanding re who works on the case, you might as well not waste the talent on doc review, and moreover, unlike contract attorneys, staff attorneys develop expertise on your specific clients, and appear to be more loyal.

Not to mention the fact that a significant percentage of contract attorneys are incompetent "rent-a-drunks" who will hide out for weeks on projects without doing any work that doesn't need to be re-done.

I've read the post about cumberland on here before, but assumed they were bogus. However, I keep seeing them and am starting to wonder if accepting there is a mistake.

Please advise. I made well enough on my LSAT to get into some higher ranked schools, but cumberland gave me money. What should I do?

A second tier of associates will mean that in theory, the firm could hire more of them, increasing their size, but also creating a supportable staff. A $90-$120K salary available to more people will improve the legal market. If BIGBiglaw did this, perhaps that extra 30K per first year could mean an extra attorney for every 3 first years. That means more and better employed attorneys, and allows contract attorneys benefits.

I think that in the future most firms will use this model, picking attorneys for the partner track out of a pool of lower-class associates. It will save the firm money and won't require associates to pledge their life to a firm their second year in law school.

441 - I am wondering whether law school is even worth the investment if you don't get into the top schools. I have heard tons of stories about students who go to non-top tier schools and graduate with 100k in debt and a job making 50-60k a year (or some even no job at all).
I am not a law student, but have been considering going back one day. Just too scared to take the risk.

get off this site. outside of your backwater birmingham city, you couldn't get a job as a "tier-2" associate!

Leave Cumberland 3L alone....

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- : -
~

Cravath has done this for years, they call them "discovery attorneys" and they sit on the paralegal floors.

Doc review monkeys. Forever.

Don't worry L2L, you will find a nice 70k a year job with 4 months of searching AFTER getting your positive bar results (if you fail 1st time, apply for welfare ASAP). You will probably not be doing the type of law you desire, may not mind your firm because of its "laid back" atmosphere (its always laid back with people being paid so little), and then will read posts like this every day from attorneys making TRIPLE what you do, then hear that their doc reviewing cronies will probably make double what you do, and you'll decide you are going to leave work around 4:30 p.m. today to get SOUSED at happy hour and try to forget you chose to go to law school in the first place. Cabo Cantina anyone?

Q: How do you get a graduate of the Cumberland School of Law off your porch?

A: Pay him for the pizza.

TITCR

>

12:36 PM , not everyone grew up in Iowa. Some of us are FROM New York you know. And aside from staying near friends and family, there are plenty of reasons to stay in NY even w/o living in manhattan.

Don't get me wrong - a huge draw is being a short train ride from the millions of things Manhattan has to offer. But having non-WASP neighbors and 25 different kinds of cuisine in a 1 block radius is in itself a reward. These things are painfully missing in most safe neighborhoods in other cities.

12:25 made a good point. Queens (+ DINK) enabled me to live comfortably on 30k a year pre law school.

I love the idea of going back with 190k.

I thought Cumberland was a shoe. When did they open a law school?

I thought Cumberland was a shoe company. When did they open a law school?

This has been done already. They call them staff attorneys.

Creating an explicit two tier system that differentiates associates at the hiring stage means that you not only have to identify the more talented lawyers at that stage, you also have to identify the associates who are likely to stick around. At the same time, talented but ambitious associates who plan, say, a career in legal academics have incentives to send signals that generate a false positive. The associate wants to be tracked on to the first tier, even though s/he plans to leave for the academy (or what have you) in a few years.

these positions are for people who were unable to land associate positions, but still want to work at a big firm for decent pay - it's nothing more than that.