FIRST!!!

Yes, these poor SOBS shoudl have at least received their bonuses.

Stop this "First" crap already.

since they haven't worked since early summer, really they're got a 6-month deal

Clifford Chance. I remember back when I summered, way back when in '03, the infamous memo was circulating and it was widely known that morale stunk. To this day when people ask me about CC, I say "no idea how they're doing, but a few years ago..." Goes to show you that old saws die hard. This obviously won't help their rep.

"See, e.g., here and here."

you forgot to include the links.

I also remember when "structured finance" was the hottest thing on the planet. I recall listening with interest to a colleague describe how mortgages and other loan instruments were chopped up en masse, repackaged, and sold off at a premium to hapless investors expecting 10% returns. While I was interested, I was appalled, and asked him what would happen if there was widespread default on the mortgages - his response was that it would be no big deal, as people and entities "always need loans."

If you were a lawyer reviewing these documents for S&P and didn't see the mortgage crisis coming, and your job security fading... then you were a really crappy lawyer and should be barred from the profession.

(I mean really... surely they saw it coming.)

When did Dewey have large layoffs?

Seems designed to deprive them of their bonuses to me, as well. I don't see why they couldn't get a pro-rated bonus. The firm did, after all, make a buck off of them at some point.

Man, the layoff domino has started, I expect several other BIGLAW shops to follow with the layoffs...NY to 190K, fat chance!

Hey bros!

We're circling the drain of a recession and some firms are handing out special bonuses and talking about raising base salaries--not so sure the clients will be too keen on paying higher legal fees in a slumping economy.

AT: 10:17: Even if they saw it coming, what were they going to do--switch practice groups? It sounds like they were mid-level or senior associates. If the horse you're backing pulls up lame, your race is over.

"...firms like Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft; Sidley Austin; Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe; McKee Nelson and Thacher Proffitt & Wood, all of whom have scores of lawyers in securitization practices that have slowed considerably."

<100% offers for summers at these firms?

Don't securitize me, bro!

This has to kill recruiting. I for one have no intention of going to a firm where they've recently laid people off. I'm surprised this happened at Clifford Chance because I didn't think they were heavily invested in structured finance (relative to other practice groups).

10:17:
If you have you worked as part of a transaction team you will know that these hapless associates reviewed documents based on criteria established by the CLIENT and were not asked to personally opine on the advisability of the product as an investment.

The defaults did not cause the credit crisis and are attributable to lenders' low standards. The inability of owners of the debt instruments to value same led to the credit crisis as nobody had confidence in trading partners' balance sheets.

As for the write-offs at the banks, a significant amount is attributable to the amount of loans that they were "warehousing" in anticipation of packaging - now they hold 800 million in loans that they had planned to be selling - the demand for which has obviously decreased along with their value.

Neither of these factors relate to how well an individual associate or law firm applied client-specified criteria to indentures.

Don't be so critical - especially in connection with topics about which you are obviously ignorant.

Heard CWT has laid off people in their cap markets group recently...

NY to $190k!

This is a good reason to go the lit route. Sure, QOL sucks and, obviously, all legal markets ebb and flow, but think of all the litigation that's going to come out of the credit cruch and sub-prime collapse.

The Rules of Civil Procedure may be boring, but knowing them is a nice hedge against market downturns.

is "subar" work *that* stigmatized in NY? it's preferable to "fubar" work, at least.

Another black eye for Clifford Chance.

"If you were a lawyer reviewing these documents for S&P and didn't see the mortgage crisis coming, and your job security fading... then you were a really crappy lawyer and should be barred from the profession."

Not only should they have seen it coming, they probably helped it along.

I agree that at least CC has some class. I forget which firm dropped associates under the guise of underperformance to save face (which backfired), but they really look like a-holes now.

Every time I read these types of posts I consider moving to Austin Texas and practicing personal injury law.

10:40(2), to say that QOL for litigation "sucks" is such an understatement. You're constantly on the defensive, always worried about the minute detail you missed, about whether you failed to find the critical case on point, etc. The worst part, however, is that you become so litigous, it bleeds into your private life: Everything is a potential screwup (and lawsuit), you become so risk-adverse, etc. Basically, you're constantly worrying. It's a horrible existence--and I'm just a midlevel.

What's subar work? Is that like fubar work?

how bad of an idea is it to head into cap markets at this time?

If you work for foreign clients, you have job security. The flagging dollar makes even the most exhorbitant legal bill easy to swallow. Even if America sucks on other fronts, it is a huge market and foreign clients will always need legal services here if they are to get a piece of that market.

I think the problem with the structured finance boys is that all there work was with mostly US lenders and debt.

So then, which practice groups would be good bets over the long term?

bankruptcy? litigation? tax?

I want to do something that will always have plenty of work.

10:50, if you don't remember which firm it was that fired underperforming associates, how did it backfire? You don't even know who they are, so they obviously don't really look like assholes to you.

Maybe it was your firm and you don't remember?

Silly. Lots of firms have laid off or fired associates and recovered. Contrary to what most people here seem to think, it's not a black mark against the firm forever and ever.

Don't lendtopoorcreditriskssecuritizetheloanstohideitthenlaymeoffwhenthejigisup bro!

Litigation sucks if you are at a sucky place. Seriously, I have had to do doc review and deal with deadlines, but I absolutely love being a litigator at my firm. We're V50, but laid back, and everyone here is f**king brilliant. Appellate work, a large part of what we do, also ROCKS.

"I want to do something that will always have plenty of work."

Definitely NOT bankruptcy or tax. Tax has a 1:1 Partner/Associate ratio and I know tons of out of work bankruptcy biglawyers.

Litigation is definitely your area if you want job security.

How does a 1:1 partner/associate ratio in tax suggest that there is not a lot of work?

Further proof that Allen & Overy is quickly becoming the quintessential Magic Circle firm in New York. If you have PPPs like Clifford Chance, and you're talking about SIX associates, you're telling me you can't at least pay them their bonus? Apparently you can't spell chintzy without Clifford Chance.

Stop this "Stop this 'First' crap already" crap already.

11:13 - In profitably levereged arrangements, the partner:associate ratio is usually lower (1:2, 1:3). This means there are more grunts doing *more work* and thereby bringing in *more cash* for fewer partners.

10:40, QOL sucks in litigation? As opposed to what? Regulatory work? At least with litigation (and unlike much corporate work) you know about filing deadlines, etc., well in advance, and can work accordingly. Makes for fewer Friday 5:00pm calls and canceled vacations.

this thread is depressing...i'm going back to the S&C matched one.

11:17, what plannet are you litigating on? Ever heard of a TRO? How about friday afternoon research assignments for a client memo due monday am? You mean to say you've *never* had an out-of-the-blue emergency research assignment? Never had to stay late and work on pleadings because the partner promises the client a revised draft first thing?

There is ZERO predictability on a day-to-day basis with litigation. I've been doing it for more than five years at different shops, and while some partners are worse than others, it's the same ball game everywhere. You're at the beck and call of others with no realistic ability to "work accordingly" in the long run.

It should be noted that a higher associate to partner ratio usually coincides with diminished opportunity to make equity partner. If you have long odds of making equity partner, you may not have much job security no matter what the market does or what field is hot past a certain point in your career. I

What's that? Uh -- Layoffs? Don't talk about -- layoffs? You kidding me? layoffs? I just hope we can win a game!

To the left, to the left…
To the left, to the left…

Mmm…
To the left, to the left.
All of your client’s files in the box to the left.
On my desk, that’s your stuff.
Yes, I bought that mouse pad from home, so please don’t touch (don’t touch).

And keep talking that “agree not to sue” agreement, that’s fine.
Could you walk and talk at the same time?
And - it’s my name that’s on this letter to my wrongful termination lawyer
so go move your files, let me pay him a retainer.

Standing in the elevator telling me
how I’m such a fool, talking ’bout
our lawyers will bury you you you!

You got me twisted…

You must not know ’bout Wrongful termination…
You must not know ’bout Title VII…
I’m gonna get a huge settlement.
It’ll be worth 10x what you’re offering me to sign (baby).

I guess 11:35 stopped because he was boring even himself.

"Contrary to what most people here seem to think, it's not a black mark against the firm forever and ever."

I remember that S&S laid off a bunch of people. I remember that McDermott (sp?) not gave offers to a bunch of minority summer associates. I remember that it was Kirkland who used "performance reviews" to lay off people. And if I ever consider a firm for lateral opportunities, I can google it and this stuff comes up very easily even if I didn't remember it.

I agree with 11:35(1). Not only do you not have much control over the last minute needs of the partners at your firm, you have absolutely no control over opposing counsel. Planned to take a trip next week? Sorry opposing counsel just filed a motion to compel.

That said, you can still adapt to the unpredictability.

What's difficult is getting used to the idea that you have so little control over your own schedule. That just sucks.

Not that I want to get into the middle of "litigation vs. corporate" - but please - it all depends on the deal/litigation that you are on. Some litigators work 24/7 because they are going to trial. Some corporates work 24/7 because they have a closing. Some litigators get stuck with TROs. Some corporates get stuck with emergency calls from clients. I actually think that litigation QOL is a little better (I know my schedule - so I've never had to miss a vacation) - but it's all in the eyes of the beholder. It is also VERY firm specific.

I guess 11:35 stopped because he was boring even himself.

You know what's a good debate? Cinnamon Toast Crunch vs. Golden Grahams. Personally I prefer CTC. But I can see the merits of GG.

Clifford couldn't absorb six associates in other groups?

11:38 (1) - You must not know 'bout employment at will.

I hate people who do subar work.

Does anyone know / are we allowed to post the names of the 6 terminated associates?

Funny that this announcement came out right after all of the summers were sucked in (had to accept by Nov 1st).

I hate people who do subar work.

Does anyone know / are we allowed to post the names of the 6 terminated associates?

Funny that this announcement came out right after all of the summers were sucked in (had to accept by Nov 1st).

Does anyone know / are we allowed to post the names of the 6 terminated associates?

Funny that this announcement came out right after all of the summers were sucked in (had to accept by Nov 1st).

Yeah, why kick them out and not switch them over... harsh and unnecessary.

i've never really heard of bankruptcy layoffs. first, bankruptcy departments are not as big as corporate/litigation and therefore not as much of a cost to the firm. and when there's a market downturn, when corporate associates will be getting laid off left and right, bankruptcy lawyers will be busy as hell

How many TRO's are you filing? For the most part there is no good reason why a trial attorney's Friday could not be planned in advance.

Now if the Partner or Senior is holding back and does not realize that there is an emergency until Friday afternoon, that is a different question.

If you are dealing with Friday afternoon emergencies more than a few times a year, you need to look at the poor planning and raging egos that are causing that.

How could a huge world wide lawfirm like this not be able to just absorb six associates? Were these regular associates, or some type of second track, contract lawyers?

10:32, I believe Sidley gave 100% of its summers perm offers, in every office (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). The following might explain why its handling of the credit crisis is nothing like C. Chance (US), CWT, McKee, etc. (and why it WILL match the "special" bonuses in NY, despite the slowdown for many associates in that office):

(1) Yes, it has a large number of associates (and partners) in structured finance, securitization, pooled assets, etc. But despite that large number, it's pretty well spread out in terms of overall revenue (i.e. it is surely feeling a bit of a pinch, but finance work doesn't account for enough of its $1.3 billion in revenue to start laying off associates).

(2) The firm derives no more than 5% of its revenue from a single client.

(3) There is still plenty of lending work to be done.

(4) Plenty of work-outs have had to be done over the past few months.

I'm sure there a few more reasons. Perhaps someone from OHS and TPW might echo some of the above.

At least in the corporate sector, I think M&A and securities are probably evergreen - there will be ups and downs, but generally the work will never completely dry up.

What sucks is that during the boom, I'm sure these associates were working their asses off making CC lots and lots of money.

Rather than work at retooling these former producers, they fire em. Nice.

"The lawyers were recruited as a team over the last 18 months to review the documentation S&P used to rate mortgage-backed securities."
http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=129820&d=415&h=417&f=416

Does this change anything?

12:36 - shut up.

These guys didn't get fired for being in structured. They got fired because they only worked for one client and the work dried up. That's the quickest way to get fired in any group.

"I remember that McDermott (sp?) not gave offers to a bunch of minority summer associates."

"Not gvae offers"? Aww . . . you talk pretty one day!

I wonder how specialty groups, e.g., ERISA and tax, do during times like these, or how they do during slumps, in general.

Top firms with broad practices can always find something to keep their associates busy until things turn around in slower groups. Sometimes such "alternative" work might not be very exciting (typically done by first-years, staff attorneys and, gasp...contract attorneys).

If the associate is anything over a third-year, perhaps his or her salary rate would need to be reduced to a third year's, if the alternative work is especially menial (with bonuses adjusted downward accordingly - though with an eye to any full-rate work performed prior to a downturn).

During the fall, such associates should be heavily utilized for interviews, lunches, tours, etc. During the summer, same thing, to an even greater extent (and they should assign and review the summers' work). And they should be put on lots of pro bono assignments, which the firm can proudly advertise (to clients, law students, and state governments, some of which are actively trying to raise taxes on LLP's).

Me, I'd vacuum the carpet, take out the trash, and man the lobby in my office building (for 2000+ hours), as long as they never drop me below a third year's rate.

Cinnamon Toast Crunch destroys Golden Grahams. They're not even in the same league. Lucky Charms, on the other hand, might give CTC a run for its money.

12:39 - what's the problem with 12:36?

12:39 - what's the problem with 12:36?

In CA, everyone remembers that Gray Cary (now DLA) and Cooley Godward (now Cooley Kronish) went through lots of layoffs during 2001. These firms have lost out on top laterals and summers for years b/c they threw associates under the bus when the going got tough.

Someone wrote: "There is ZERO predictability on a day-to-day basis with litigation. I've been doing it for more than five years at different shops, and while some partners are worse than others, it's the same ball game everywhere. You're at the beck and call of others with no realistic ability to "work accordingly" in the long run."

Sorry, man, but if this is your life in litigation, then you are being sh*t on. Yes, I know stuff comes up. But after several years in litigation, you should have better control of your schedule and the cases you are on. Not to say it's not busy; but your schedule should be predictable and more under your control.

Either you're at a firm that still treats you like a 1st year, or you deserve to be treated like a 1st year.

So 18 months after luring these guys over from whatever other job they were at, Clifford Chance cans them. Sweet. Associates are like cigarettes. They are nice to have, but when you are done sucking the life out of them, you throw them onto the sidewalk.

Go ahead and make that lateral move over to Clifford Chance, I am sure they will treat you better.

I DON'T USUALLY POST IN ALL CAPS

BUT

YOU ALL NEED TO KNOW THIS

YOUR FIRM WILL TRY TO GET YOU TO SPECIALIZE

IN ONE SMALL, NARROW AREA

THIS MAKES YOU MORE PROFITABLE TO THEM IN THE SHORT RUN

BUT

IF THAT ONE SMALL, NARROW AREA IMPLODES

THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MOVE YOU TO A DIFFERENT GROUP

AND YOU WILL BE OUT

ON

YOUR

ASS

SO PLEASE

RESIST

BEING

PIGEONHOLED

FOR YOUR OWN GOOD

SERIOUSLY

The more important issue is not whether a firm lays-off attorneys but how it is done. Almost every firm has at one time or another let people go (both partners and associates) because of external economic factors.

Some firms (like Clifford Chance) take the high road and accuately attribute the layoff to a reduction in business rather than anything to do with the affected attorneys. Some other firms that have taken the high road in the past include Latham and Cooley.

Other firms, however, act badly and blame the affected attorneys. They say the lay-offs were "performance-related" when the real reason had nothing to do with the performance of the attorney. This obviously compounds the problem for the affected attorney who now has no job and a (erroneous) scarlet letter on his resume. Associates would be well advised to avoid firms that have engaged in this type of dishonorable behavior. Firms that have behaved badly in the past include Shearman and Wilson Sonsini.

1:10, we can't be sure what CC's motive was for being straightforward about the nature of the lay-offs - but it would have been almost comical if they'd attempted to say that the 6 attorneys who happened to be in the group that had completely tanked as a result of economic forces also just happened to be underperforming lawyers that needed to be canned.

Eh, my last sentence barely made sense. Anyway, what I was getting at is either they treat everyone like sh*t, or it's just you. Either way, sounds like bad news.

1:06 pm -- agreed. But as we have seen, clearly Gray Cary and Cooley weren't going to last and were legitimately in trouble. Hence, they had to be acquired by someone, or die. What's unfortunate is that they couldn't have sorted it all out before laying people off.

12:26

I know of at least one summer who did not get a perm offer from Sidley NY...

1:18, any reason why?

1:02 - shut up.

CTC is overrated. It's just nasty squares sprinkled with sugar and fake cinnamon. Golden Grahams all the way!

11:58 --

GG has no merits. It's for guys who like bears.

Mee, they treat everyone like shit. It's a smaller firm, and morale is beyond horrible. The only reason there hasn't been a mass exodus is the fairly tight litigation market in NYC, and coming from a smaller place (despite having a few years experience at Biglaw) isn't the best thing on a lateral resume.

Golden Grahams contain significant amounts of mercury. CTC, on the other hand, contains cinnamon and sugar.

1:28, don't you mean "Golden Grahams contains..."? The cereal pieces contained in a bowl of the name brand product Golden Grahams contain significant amounts of mercury.

1:20

Unfortunately the situation is murky. It may have had to do with the summer's seeming lack of commitment to firm life as opposed to public interest work.

Seems strange nonetheless.

I too would like to hear about no-offers to 2007 at these firms.

1:22, Golden Grahams, like graham crackers are a health food and dietary supplement. Or at least that's what Judge Elizabeth Halverson told me.

to 12:26 - Sidley did not give all of its summers offers. i know someone who did not get an offer

1:47 which office?

1:47 which office?

It is quite possible for a summer to fool around all summer and not get an offer. Shocking, I know.
So, yes, a proportion of summers don't get offers. This phenomenon s not even worthy of discussion.

I eat whatever type of breakfast cereal the partner is eating in an attempt to impress him with my judgment. At present he is eating Capt. Crunch.

let's not get snarky 158.

We all know the "phenomenon" of a summer or two not getting a permanent offer at any given firm. However, if a firm tries to make a selling point out of its "100%" offer rate when, in fact, there are multiple summers who don't receive permanent offers, it doesn't hurt to get the info out there.

Obviously, this isn't to say that such information has been adduced in these comments. To the contrary, I am aware that Sidley has been very consistent in having a near 100% permanent offer rate in its NY office.

I know that every once in a while Sidley doesnt extend an offer- like any other firm. But on the whole, Sidley is as consistent as the rest of the big shops in NY, right? This is kinda crucial info for me right now!

I was under the impression that Sidley (unlike some other firms with credit-based revenue) was not going to be as effected given its broader practice areas, its reputable lit, etc. etc.

ie someone calm me down before i accept.

2L @ 3:18, calm down. I don't work at Sidley so I don't have any comforting knowledge or pat phrases from the Vault guide to assuage you with, but I can tell you non-offering one summer is just not that big of a deal. If what 12:26 said is true, you will be fine, and you will have a great summer.

why do people think of law as some kind of layoff-proof industry? the economy sometimes goes in the crapper, there is less work, and expendable people lose their jobs. these are facts.

why do people think of law as some kind of layoff-proof industry? the economy sometimes goes in the crapper, there is less work, and expendable people lose their jobs. these are facts.

2L (3:18), you are under the correct impression.

(1) Take a few deep breaths. (2) Accept your offer. (3) Resume the arbitrary drudgery that is law review. (4) Expend about half of the effort on your upcoming exams as you did last fall. (5) Repeat step #4 in the spring. (6) Be sure to get plenty of exercise and eat light beginning no later than April 1st, so that the 5-10 pounds you will gain over your decadent summer won't be too big of a problem. (7) Accept your offer at the end of next summer. (8) Try in vain to muster a shred of motivation to attend your 3L classes. (9) Graduate. (10) Study for, take, and pass the bar. (11) Take a trip to somewhere that will give you some memories from which to draw hope and joy as you commence doc reivew or due diligence. (12) Long for the days of being a corpulent-yet-dashing summer associate and lazy 3L. (13) Retire. (14) Die quietly in your sleep surrounded by loved ones at your vacation home at 82.

Calmed?

Sidley DC no-offered a summer for performance reasons this year. s

Calmed.

I plan on making it to 85, though, at least.

ok everyone resume ranking on clifford and wishing they were at S&C.

3:46,

I am in the middle of this particular cycle and somehow I fail to be comforted by your words of wisdom and philosophical approach.

Perhaps it is time I found a different calling. I envy those who get laid off since it motivates people to find jobs.

However, it's hard for me to do find another calling since I have a lucrative career and my wife and kids are happy and secure in their knowledge that their shadowy paternal unit and husband/gravy train will keep the dough flowing until my untimely death from a heart attack at 3 am in an office without a defibrillator.

Exciting.

Not.

I really need to stop haunting ATL and billing WalMart and finding something else to do.

@3:46--best post ever!

why post lay off news in the middle of bonus matching. Stupid??

i know for a fact the Sidley NY summer was not no-offered due to the slowdown in the credit markets.

don't worry 2L. you will enjoy your summer, and the associates at Sidley are awesome. i will see you when you start FT at the end of summer of 09.

Orrick NY did not give one summer an offer, but that summer did not actually come to Orrick (they had summered here as a 1L and did not return as a 2L). All the summers that actually attended the summer program received offers.

Orrick NY did not give one summer an offer, but that summer did not actually come to Orrick (they had summered here as a 1L and did not return as a 2L). All the summers that actually attended the summer program received offers.

CC did not require acceptance for summers by Nov. 1st, I have only hear of Dec deadlines.

CC did not require acceptance for summers by Nov. 1st, I have only hear of Dec deadlines.

For all of you who think Clifford took the "high road" by not trashing the associates they cut....I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Great price, let me know if you're interested.

As one poster noted above, Clifford benefitted greatly from these lawyers when they were busy. I know because I had to deal with them on several deals - they were vigilant to say the least, and in my opinion squeezed every billable hour out of S&P that they could. Much of this work was during the 2007 performance year.

Now Clifford is cutting them without giving them their bonus. If you're dumb enough to say Clifford handled this with "honor" or whatever, you either work at Clifford or deserve to work at Clifford.

Wow, they seemed to be really quick on the trigger with those layoffs.

It amazes me to read some of the comments posted by educated legal minds. Some of you sound like a bunch of idiots. These highly educated lawyers did not deserve to be fired the way they did. It is not about the fact that they got laid off, shit happens and we all know that. It is the timing of it and the fact that they are getting cheated out of their well-deserved bonuses. Don't tell me that CC now realized that the dept. was not doing well and the work was not coming back. That is the biggest bullshit I have ever heard.

It amazes me to read some of the comments posted by educated legal minds. Some of you sound like a bunch of idiots. These highly educated lawyers did not deserve to be fired the way they did. It is not about the fact that they got laid off, shit happens and we all know that. It is the timing of it and the fact that they are getting cheated out of their well-deserved bonuses. Don't tell me that CC now realized that the dept. was not doing well and the work was not coming back. That is the biggest bullshit I have ever heard.

Totally agree with the poster above. I think CC deserves especially harsh PR for this. Lat, see what you can do; your "list of shame" for firms that don't raise was a great idea; I would love to see some way of getting CC some added negative attention.

i have an offer from CC and was planning on accept it over Winston and Strawn (both in NY). should i really let this laying-off of associates dissuade me?

From the news article and these posts it seems that they hired a group of laterals explicitly to work with a ratings agency; once that work dried up last month, they haven't done anything and are too senior to move to another department while retaining that level of seniority. The firm should have at least offered to keep them on as the equivalent of a 3rd or 4th year and put them back into the corporate mix (though I don't think this happens often), or helped them with their "voluntary lateral" as some other firms have done in the past month.

This will hurt their ability to attract laterals, especially those they hire for specific abilities. Yes, they were honest about why they were letting them go. Every firm forces mid and upper level associates out. Some do it through shitty performance reviews, others give associates some notice with the understanding that they are not welcome back next year, a few firms have billable minimums and partners tell associates explicitly not to bill X or Z, and still other firms have "voluntary" placement schemes. I think that firing associates when you have a number of other options sends a bad message to other lateral talent (and--at least somewhat justifiably--to incoming associates).

I would guess that TPW and the other smaller firms will take hits to their PPP before laying off associates, but I expect CWT to follow suit. When a firm is run like a business, you fire associates whom you plan to make redundant before you go about giving all of your associates a salary or bonus boost.

yes.

pick W&S.

WJM @ 9:38: I have the same dilemma... am between CC and W&C. I thought it was a tough decision, and lately have been really leaning towards CC. Is this a stupid question now?

Was looking at corporate/transactions - m&A, IBT, banking, project finance.

Terrible reflection on the firm or on the economy/practice area? Would anyone still accept CC (esp over a V20 like W&C) in light of this news? Seriously

But M&A and the other areas will always be around. I wouldn't think CC would do something like this to a big group like M&A or banking, that would just not be smart on their part, right?

I am going to have to go back to the firm and see how their associates handle my questions on it. You should go back to CC and ask them too.

What do you think?

I am going back very soon actually. Some of the points raised (why not integrate into other practice areas/send to other office/why short of bonus period) will need answering.

I wonder if this will effect the quality of the summer class. I can't imagine top students from top schools in similar predicaments quick to join the firm. Could this terrible timing have long-lasting consequences?

Still, as mentioned above, it is just a cyclical risk you take in that practice area. My friends from college - as recent as class of '06 - were bending over for ibanks and are now scared shitless. Which again begs the question, why not find busy work or move these guys around until structured finance picked back up?

Good luck WJS!

Well maybe it will not affect the summer class if most of them have already accepted, and you and I are the ones who have the luck of getting all this info before hand!

I am going to try and give CC the benefit of the doubt until I go back and here their take, and how other associates feel about it.

This is definitely not easy, even though some may think this dilemma makes it easier.

But anyhow, good luck to you too!

I'm sure you know, but just so people dont think I'm an idiot, I meant "hear" not "here."

Its ok, I go to CLS and I'm sure your smarter than I is!!

I'd go back and talk to people. CC's summers last year had a great time and most people seem to like it there despite what you might hear in blog comments and the like.

I'd go back and talk to people. CC's summers last year had a great time and most people seem to like it there despite what you might hear in blog comments and the like.

There may be many reasons to go to CC, but the strength of its NY transactional practice is not one of them.

Between the 2002 memo and these recent layoffs (the timing of the layoffs is def. a dick move), I don't understand why law students are attracted to this firm.

so no special bonus then huh?

1:06 ...so you would pick Dewey over them for NY transactional?

2:07 - yes. Even with the uncertainties of the merger hanging overhead, D&L without a doubt has a stronger NY presence.

White & Case vs. Clifford is a no-brainer. I have friends and colleagues at both firms.

CC's firm culture isn't quite miserable (I save that label for Cadwalader) but it's not good. For evidence of this, just read all the posts above. The layoff story shouldn't worry you from a job security standpoint (as it was narrow and limited) but it should worry you from the standpoint of how the firm treats people.

W&C has a lot of bright, friendly, professional people in my opinion. I've worked with partners and sr. associates there, and I have a lot of friends from NYU (05, 06) who are now W&C associates. No large firm is a fun place to work, but W&C has a good vibe as far as firms go.

And if your a prestige whore, its a little better in that area too.

"The layoff story shouldn't worry you from a job security standpoint (as it was narrow and limited) but it should worry you from the standpoint of how the firm treats people."

I'm curious as to whether people think other firms would have acted in a similar manner or if they consider this egregious behavior.

CC and White & Case may be a no-brainer, but what about CC and Winston?

Linus you think CC v. WC is a no brainer? I would imagine working at magic circle smaller office in NYC would be more congenial, less intense. Isn't CCs office here quite small?

CC's office here isn't small, but the firm culture is good, not sure what that guy's talking about. Have heard decidedly mixed reviews about White & Case though.

I think the two are pretty much the same in NY and CC is stronger worldwide...

CC's office here isn't small, but the firm culture is good, not sure what that guy's talking about. Have heard decidedly mixed reviews about White & Case though.

I think the two are pretty much the same in NY and CC is stronger worldwide...

Any thoughts on the summer program at CC's DC office?