These bonuses suck. Way below market.

When I interviewed at Sheppart Mullin a few years ago everyone looked sad. I felt badly for them.

i, as a CA attorney, would allow a partner to piss on my face to get akin's bonus

Dear Uncle Mayer,

Congrats on your upcoming nuptuals. In light of all this celebrating, please provide a bonus announcement.

All I got to say is I sure hope Latham doesn't cheap out and pay its NYC associates (who work less hours) substantially more money. At least through November Latham's NYC office ranks #5 in terms of associate hours billed in Latham's domestic offices. Here the order: (1) New Jersey (2) San Diego (3) DC (4) Silicon Valley (5) NYC. In fact right now NYC is substantially below DC in hours.

What the F*&% is up with Hogan non-NY? That "median" bonus (covering 3 years apiece) is TERRIBLE!! Expect an exodus...and Hogan to get trounced by a late announcer and be forced to match with their tails between their legs.

4:44, yup.

I am sick of this market/not market crap. The "market" for California firms is different. If people want New York bonuses, go to a New York firm, work way too much and have no life. If you want a firm where you get excellent work experience and have partners looking out for your career, go to Sheppard Mullin, make a little less money and have a better career/life. Seems like a simple choice to me.

Hey Lat, you should post Hogan's numbers in the Colorado offices. They have 3 Colorado offices. It would be really interesting to see what those guys make.

Sheppard beating Sidley! Hilarious. Sidley, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 down and out.

5:04 - says the Sheppard Mullin HR hack...

What ever happened with GDC? Weren't they supposedly announcing by the end of the week according to the article Lat posted this morning, which = today?

5:04 = Sheppard Mullin partner

5:04 thats my point. At Latham, at least so far this year, the opposite happened. If you worked in NY you billed less hours and had a higher quality of life than DC.

Complete meltdown at Dickstein Shapiro - NY. The partners should expect a huge exodus.

I am actually an associate, and I think most of the SMRH associates are happy with the bonuses. It is a huge improvement on a previously crappy bonus structure.

Nothing for Hogan Denver?

5:04: really, a better life while having to bill 2,100 hours to get ANY bonus? How does that work? Doesn't sound like SM partners are looking out for their associates TOO well. I suppose EVERYONE makes partner at SM, so nobody needs to worry about $$ and law school loans, and stuff until then, right?

Assuming I want a "better" life and don't work 2,100 hours at SM, according to the chart I'll be out anywhere from $25k to $95K per year (from 1st to 5th year). That's a "little" less money? God, I wish I were a BigLaw partner so I could pooh pooh sub-7 figure numbers!

I love delusional comp partners whose answer to their own cheapness is "Then move to NY". Guess what, after reading these numbers, law students will be doing just that!

Do you think CA, DC, Chi, SF, SV, etc etc have been keeping pace comp-wise with NYC since 2000 for the fun of it? No, its to convince top graduates to go somewhere other than NYC. It seems this is the year all non-NYC firms have decided their PPP is worth more to them than being a top tier national firm (not sure SM ever was one, but that's for another time). Sad. Its back to obscurity. Back to NYC and then everyone else.

Amazing how shallow this profession really is. Wish I hadn't spent 3 years getting into a profession that I so quickly want to get out of.

At Akin, you also have to write a second essay on "How I Spent My Bonus Money."

Of course, once they all fall off the top tier, there go the PPPs they've been enjoying since 2000! Talent flocks to NYC, clients flock to talent.

Self-inflicted wound. Wonder how long it'll take them to recover (if ever)?

Wow, if the Sheppard associates are "happy" that they have to bill 2100 hours to get a bonus, that's pretty sad.

Akin non-NY = punt

people in HH's philly office (all 9 or 10 of 'em) are making out pretty well. $160k to start, and a $15-65k bonus? that goes a loooong way.

Akin Gump is waiting to see how low it can go.

I, too, would like to know what the Hogan associates make in Colorado. I hope it's decent, because once I do some damage on my loans and develop some lateral-worthy skills (perhaps for as long as 5 five years, to avoid another bar exam), I'd like to exchange my job in the Loop for one in LoDo (or wherever they keep the biglaw offices in the Mile High City).

Colorado sucks. Why would anyone want to go to Colorado? For all that outdoor shit? The outdoors is lame.

Also, despite what they insist, their weed is actually pretty mediocre.

Akin Gump has a reputation for being cheap.

Psst, hey 5:42: I don't want you either.

5:42 = Denver lawyer, outdoor enthusiast, who doesn't want to share his Wheelchair Bud.

sidley bonus = flu shot

Colorado (5:44), please drive up to Berthoud Pass tomorrow morning, hike up to Hell's Half Acre, and make some turns for me. Now I'm off to pick up my Lou Malnetti's, which is little consolation.

Strike that, it's only 5, I'm not getting out of here any time soon. At least I have my flu shot.

mcdermott bonus = shot in the mouth

I'm tired of people thinking NY is special somehow and should be paid more for the same or less amount of work than associates in CA, DC, Boston, etc. There may have been a time when NY associates billed more hours or did more complicated work, but no more, particularly in a time when legal services aren't tied to a specific locations (associates in CA are working on deals and litigation that came into the NY office and vice versa). It is just plain ridiculous to maintain this fiction that for some reason, not any logical reason, people who choose to live in NY deserve to get paid more for the same work while doing less of it.

No bonus memo for Dickstein, only individual checks. WAY below market.

6:12

first, chill the fuck out.

second, while most on this board think that higher bonuses and higher salaries (this too, happened at time past) paid to ny associates are tied to cost of living, they are not. these numbers have nothing to do with cost of living. ny associates simply bill at higher rates than those in any other office, and therefore, bring in more revenue than their peers in other office, assuming that they bill the same number of hours, which they generally do in light of the many billable goal targets that firms have.

Why do NY associates bill at a higher rate?

the firms bill us out at the highest rate their clients will bear. For whatever reasons, clients will bear a higher cost in ny.

The short answer: it's turtles all the way down.

If you look at Skadden's billing rates across all offices, the differences can only be explained by relative cost of living.

6:23

"chill the fuck out?" I'll assume you misinterpret my post as being some sort of rant other than a simple statement that it gets old hearing the same stupid posts about how associates outside of NY shouldn't be able to demand the same pay.

As for the points you raise, I never mentioned cost of living, and agree with you that it has, and should not, have anything to do with it. I did mention the type of work and the difficulty of the work, and your point about the rate at which associates bill out don't really seem to change the situation in my mind. My whole premise is that an associate in NY, CA, and DC do the same work, and often work side by side on the same work, and should be paid the same regardless of whether the firm chooses to bill a client at a higher rate for the NY associate than the CA associate for no apparent logical reason. If someone wants to contend that NY associates in fact earn that extra pay somehow, then I'm open to that. Otherwise, bill out all associates time at the same rate and pay all associates at the same rate for the same work.

Oh by the way, I'm just stating my opinion, not going nuts in my office...I'm very chilled out.

Nixon Peabody Boston just announced:

Everyone at the firm has been given the title "winner."

Regards,
Joe Smith, Esq., Winr.

$5000 "Market Bonus" at Dickstein for over 2100.

I agree with 6:12. CA and DC associates are working the same number of hours -- and sometimes the exact same deals/cases/investigations. Moreover, to the extent the NYC market will bear a higher billing rate, it has nothing to do with the associates themselves, and everything to do with their zip code.

2400 hurts equally wherever you're located. Talent is talent, wherever you're hired. Bonus structures should be equal in relation to these things. And if you want to give a COL bump, fine, but then SF should get one too.

at 6:12 - they earn their higher rates because clients are willing to pay it. You really think that the firm bills wouldn't bill non-NY associates for the same rate if they could? Thus these associates while working the same hours are worth more to the firm and get paid according to this higher value.

As to your comment that you work side by side. Maybe on some deals, and I wouldn't be surprised if on those they bill all associates at the same rate (otherwise the client would be curious). But on the majority of deals, it's not multi-office other than a few lawyers.

For a reference point - NY doctors make more than St. Louis doctors even if they work the same hours because their clients are willing to pay more for the same work. Hours worked does not equate to value.

why oh why did I accept at Hogan?

Every single bonus announced above is *considerably* higher than what Heller, MoFo, and several other SF-based firms pay (outside NY). Lat, please do a post on this. Heller/Mofo class of 2004, 2100 hours = $7500. Seriously. These firms are supposed to be "better" than Sheppard Mullen or Hogan & Hartson. They're certainly more selective.

I think that NY attorneys should be compensated more than DC and CA attorneys because they have to live in a horrible city....seriously

the dickstein bonuses were so far below market, I wonder if they are in worse financial shape than people realize. First year bonuses were 10, but only if you hit 2200 hours.

Am I reading this right? A 2001 Hogan DC associate gets $37,500, while a 2001 Hogan NY associate gets $110,000? I mean some disparity I guess could make sense, and I understand how they arrived at this (pure market forces), but is this the world we're living in? Are the DC associates threatening to torch the place?

Non-NY associates have been weighed, measured and deemed unworthy. Sucks to be you.

What should I buy with my $100k plus bonus? Maybe I'll pay some senior associates from LA to serve drinks at my cocktail party.

How many hours do you need to bill at Hogan DC to get bonus of 30 or 40K? Or is it more complicated than just billable hours?

Latham DC associates in corporate, especially M&A have billing rates often as high as Latham NYC associates do. so should those associates get the same bonus as New York associates? If New York associates are working fewer hours?

Any word for firms in Texas offices? V&E, Fulbright, Baker Botts?

Maybe NYC billable rates are generally higher but how much of that is actually realized as profits to the firm? Isn't a big part of the profits eaten up by the higher costs associated with maintaining an office in NY? Plus is a DC associate that bills 2400 really worth less than a NY associate that bills 2000 hours. I really doubt the profits realized from a NYC associate could be that much higher.

Any Wilmer Hale Boston/DC numbers? I thought they announced today. Class/Hours/Bonus data would be greatly appreciated.

Has Hunton & Williams announced yet?

10:20: Who gives a shit? It's Texas.

exactly... while biglaw lawyers in NYC live in boxes biglaw TX lawyers live in 8,000 sq ft mansions, even without a bonus... so it really doesn't matter.

I am a 6th year at dickstein in nyc. People complaining on this board, you have no idea how rediculous things can get. The guaranteed 'market' bonuses. So many people got nothing, they had to send out an email to stop harrassing accounting for 'lost' checks. Good luck recruiting next year, idiots.

What is going on with CWT? Did they match? I've heard rumors of layoffs, but nothing official.

Dead silence at CWT regarding bonus, though internal rumors among the associates of a wide scale screwing in the works.

Also hearing of the potential for Mckee type "leave of absence" deals for CM associates.

Bad times here.

Way to step up, guys! This warms my heart for our future together : )

Lat, could you do a thread on bar stipends? I just heard that MWE NY associates are getting less than a third for their summer bar stipends than that of MWE Chicago associates. As if a future of nonexistent bonuses wasn't enough. What are they trying to do, fund minimally higher NY associate bonuses this year by paying 70% less in bar stipends to incoming associates in NY? I'm not sure I fully understand what's going on here. Or, maybe I understand and I'm in denial...

CWT associates have been told of widespread ZERO bonuses, even for associates with 2000+ hours. There is no colder heart pack of jackals on this planet than the partners at CWT. The hillbilly managing partner is going to hold a firing party where they cheer every name assigned a pink slip.

And watch them to report another year of record profits. This is not about saving their firm, it is about competing for Cravath level PPP. They don't care about the reputation hit, they will continue to recruit very well at foul TTTs like Pittsburgh.

5 AM, many firms give little or no bar stipend at their NY office. But whereas NY first years get stub bonuses, non-NY first years generally do not. It's not a matter of "screwing" NY v. Chicago associates - they just receive the payment at different times. (I am curious as to the origins of this convention.)

Hey 8:42pm, I'll be the first to say that Heller's bonuses generally blow, but you're wrong on your numbers. The minimum you'd get under the current structure for class of 2004 at 2100 hours is $8k+discretionary.

8:42- Orrick (SF based, but not in NY or SF), Class of 2005, 2100 hours, $45k. suck it. But hey, as long as it's worth $40k to get to say you work at "MoFo" then you're way ahead of me.

You guys at Hogan and DS should do the math here- read Orrick's bonus memo and see where you make out better. Uncle Orrick is always hiring.

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/05/skaddenfreude_heres_the_orrick.php

Stroock (L.A.) just laid off a special counsel it promoted a year ago, froze or lowered bonuses throughout the office, and completely eliminated bonuses altogether for a large number of associates. All this after it told 4th year+ associates during the summer that it would give higher bonuses to compensate for the fact that it did not raise salaries following significant mid-year market adjustments by many other L.A. firms.

Jones Day new york - if you made hours you got regular + special

Jones Day new york - if you made hours you got regular + special

what's up with Jones Day announcing new Partners-in-Charge for six of its major domestic offices (NY, Chicago, DC, Dallas, Atlanta, Cleveland) over the past 2 months? None of them are the result of laterals leaving.

Dickstein NY is in a world of hurt. Even if just a small group of associates leave, there'll be no one to do the work (which there is plenty of). And paying shitty (and seemingly inconsistent) bonuses in this market is a sure bet to dry up the incoming lateral pool. Anyone know how Dickstein DC or LA did?

What's up with bonii in non-NY Jones Day offices? I heard that this year they were paying merit bonuses. Any word on what a typical "merit" bonus was???

Mayer Brown announced on friday in NY. Regular + special (a bit unclear from memo exactly who gets the special though)

8:11 - thanks for the info on the bar stipends. I didn't know that was a typical arrangement.

What do you have to do at Hogan DC to get a solid bonus (30K+) your first few years?

Thanks for posting the Jones Day DC memo in this post. If you guys missed it while you were reading through the post, it's because Jones Day DC did not pay bonuses, and the bonus memo is, thusly, blank. Great. Excellent. Will be a great chistmas indeed. Thanks everyone for making the firm successful again this year.

The great part is that I (an associate at Jones Day DC) actually have to work today. That's right. NO Bonus and they are still making me get work done on a holiday weekend. Thanks again, assholes.

People thinking about coming here as a lateral, summer associate, or first year associate: DO NOT. Not worth it, unless this is your only choice. Maybe come here if you don't really want to be a lawyer and want to see how long you can do nothing before getting fired. I mean, shit, you bill 2600 hours and you won't get a bonus, why not bill 1500 hours and actually enjoy yourself? You'll be making the same as the 2600 hour associate (Jones Day claims they pay base salary based on merit, but the matrix clearly has an hours component, and they are undermarket with base salary anyway).

But as for 11:51am, there wasn't any partner-in-charge change in the DC office at least. I do remember that long email about all the changes, and there are a lot, but it really looked like just a shuffling of the top management (e.g., administrative partner moving to hiring partner; diversity head to practice group head; that kind of stuff, but I can't remember specifics right now).

Headhunters - go ahead and set up an office at Dickstein New York. It will be easier for both you and all of the associates that just got screwed (all of them) and are now putting the final touches on their resumes.

This place is in bad shape. If they don't want an office in New York they should close it instead of poorly running it into the ground.

I heard the same thing from a buddy of mine at dickstein- they stiffed almost all their associates, after promising 'market' bonuses. He thinks its because they're going to close the new york office, anyway. It's the only way giving the shaft to all the associates makes any sense.

Dickstein DC fared no better. They delayed their "bonus" announcement due to "technical glitches" till end of the day friday when half the people had already left for vacation. So far as I know hitting 1950-2000 as a first year got you no bonus.

Fitzpatrick Cella in New York made many associates very unhappy by changing their historic war bonus calculation.

A lot of associates were nickeled and dimed out of 5 and 10 thousand of their war bonus.

In the past, hours were calculated by taking hours of of January through November, divide by 11 and multiply by 12 (So December did not count)

Just this week, associates were informed this week that they would now use December through November, so this year's bonus includes last December's hours and this December's hours counts toward next year. December has always been a slow month.

FYI FCHS bonus is 2 parts:

Based on years there: 25,, 30 or 40

Based on hours: 2200 (10K); 2300 (15K); 2400 (20K)

The problem is not the method of calculation, it seems fair, but dont wait till end of December to inform everyone that last December now counts toward this year and now, by the way, this December which is basically over, will count for next year.

Dear Lat,

It's CHRISTMAS weekend, not a "holiday" weekend. Or, is there some other holiday this weekend that I'm unaware of (let's see, Hanukkah, Ramadan etc. are passed, and I have to work on the first day of Kwanzmus--the 26th--so yes, this is Christmas weekend)

Merry Christmas you douche :)

Here's a holiday lesson - if you are looking to lateral, make sure you (1) ask about matching market bonus and (2) get it in writing. There is no excuse for the number of people that are getting hosed this year after being told by their new firms that they would match market.

Dickstein NY:
Only 1 partner this year and an email telling associates to stop calling accounting for their checks.

Guess what, if that many people were calling it means NO ONE got any money. I guess PPP has to stay high. Good luck on the midlevel survey and recruiting ANY lateral associates or first years. Dickstein is NOT a quality of life firm, except for the partners laughing all the way to the bank. And for those few associates in NY that did get a check it was not direct deposit and so late in the day it will not clear until next year.

Dickstein LA:
No partners, no money.

Dickstein DC:
3 partners some money most based on their prior hours based system.

So if they don't pay and don't make partners why should associates work there?

Hey Fitz person,

I also heard from an associate there that people were not happy about it and that they thin some people will be leaving next year, any comments??

3:12 - Get the f#$% over it.

Every year, the same douchebags complain that people refer to "the holidays" instead of Christmas; or that the store clerks same "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."

What's the big freaking deal? It's like you're afraid that Santa won't visit your house because he thinks it's just some random holiday? That's he's confused about whether or not it's really Christmas.

You get the "holiday" trees everywhere. The sales. The decorations. The TV specials. The "holiday" music is playing everywhere. Isn't that enough to help you celebrate the obviously very religious matter of the birth of your lord?

Does your celebration require that we substitute the word Christmas for holiday throughout the month of December?

638,

You are generally right. Happy holidays is fine, as are holiday sales and such.

But for Christ's sake (get it?) can't we all agree to call the damn thing a Christmas tree. Last I checked none of the other holidays traditionally involve dressing up a pine tree.

Holiday tree just makes you sound dumb.

You do realize that the special is called "A Charlie Brown Christmas" right?

Just be glad you don't work at Loeb & Loeb - no bonus announcement yet and likely way below market.

7:04 - I was kidding about the holiday tree (and the holiday music).

All this regional, east coast-west coast, NY-DC, whiny bullshit is totally ridiculous. The last round of salary raises has finally produced some much-needed stratification among long firms. Among "biglaw" firms, there are wide variations in profitability. Their should be differences in compensation. Not because a 1BR apartment in one city is a more expensive than another city, and not because a 20-something grunt worker in one city thinks his work is more important than someone in another city. Its because those people work for firms with different economic realities. News flash: in general, firms handling a lot of huge corporate transactions in New York will in general be more profitable than firms with largey similar legal work in other cities. And firms that do a ton of super-profitable high-end patent lit (e.g., K&E) will in general be more profitable than firms that do more routine litigation work. Wachtell pays much larger bonuses than Sheppard Mullin for the same basic reasons that Goldman Sachs pays much larger bonuses than Thomas Weisel Partners (an SF bank). Obviously there are exceptions, some firms buck this general trend, and different firms decide to react to the labor market differently. But everyone needs to get over their silly little cock envy. By and large, you knew (or should have known) what you were getting into when you chose firm A over firm B. Deal with it.

I couldn't agree more 8:43. The recent salary increases have created a great deal of compression at several vault 100 firms. In fact some senior associates that received the NYC "market" bonus recieved slightly less compensation than PARTNERS at lower vault 100 firms. What would be interesting to see though is whether any firms with substantially above market PPP (1.5M plus) fail to pay the NYC bonus. I'm guessing there are some out there, but I'm too lazy to look.

6:38, we'll celebrate his birth. you can celebrate killing him come easter.

Can someone provide some numbers for class of 2006 bonuses at Quinn, Munger, and Irell?

9:56 - MWE is one such firm. PPP supposed to be just north of 1.5M this year. My bonus for 2100 hours? (Much) Less than $10k.

"By and large, you knew (or should have known) what you were getting into when you chose firm A over firm B. Deal with it."

I disagree. The key difference being this. If a banker goes to a lower tier investment bank over GS (or has no other choice) the lower tier investment bank (I'm pretty sure) doesn't tell the young analyst/associate that their total comp package will be the same as their friends who are their year at GS.

There has, to date, been an expectation that total comp would generally be the same across a good number of v100 firms.

It may be that Cravath has finally succeeded in destroying the notion that all associates make the same comp that the early days of greedy associates helped facilitate. This year's comp followed by a fairly deep recession will probably finally derail that trend. I'm not saying that is an inappropriate outcome for the market.

The problem is this year, when promises have been made and broken.

I'm at a top tier NYC firm and made the full comp package, so this isn't sour grapes. But I have friends who were made certain promises when they switched firms and are now left making FAR less in total comp than they would have before they left. And are generally billing the same.

If firms want to attract good lateral talent, they need to promise and then pay market comp.

If I were looking to switch firms, where should I go? V&E which, apparently, has matched NYC market comp or one of the other firms mentioned in these comments?

Let's see, my firm sent out a memo stating that 1st years get a pro-rated $35K. So far, none of us got crap, or, rather, crap is all we got. If my February check does not have a bonus, I'm going on fucking Lateral Link and getting away from these silly geese.

So, where did Morgan Lewis end up in this bonus mess?

Ropes & Gray NY is in trouble. They have abandoned the lockstep compensation scheme for junior associates and bonuses are now strictly tied to hours. Performance as based on reviews is irrelevant; only hours count. Ropes has paid the special bonus only to a few associates and a few junior associates in their "lockstep" years have been paid below-market bonuses.

This Boston-based firm cannot play in the New York market!

-12.14 on the OMM bonus page: You posted this video with the title Biglaw Management to Associates.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FFtICBASrpY

Very true, except that associates (at least from top tier schools) have two things on management: 1) Biglaw Management, for whatever reason, wants top tier students (meaning a limited supply which is the ONLY logical reason for the pay increases of 06-07, because total associate supply FAR outstrips biglaw demand), and 2) management doesn't need any particular associate, but they will not suffer FBUs leaving en masse, because, God forbid, they'd have to do the work themselves, and they'd rather be golfing and kissing ass. As for me, I have another thing going- let the economy go whichever way it will, companies will ALWAYS go bankrupt, meaning I will always have a job. Let's just hope that when I'm up for partner, bankruptcy is a hot area.

Oh, and I must say that Beyonce is THE sexiest black woman.

3:58: Exactly. Make no mistake, either - Heller NYC is no bargain. $15K if you hit 2000, with the (remote) possibility of an add'l discretionary bonus.

Morgan Lewis matched in NY.

"Here's a holiday lesson - if you are looking to lateral, make sure you (1) ask about matching market bonus and (2) get it in writing. There is no excuse for the number of people that are getting hosed this year after being told by their new firms that they would match market."

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen written on this blog. Do you really think some firm is going to put in writing that they are matching "market" bonuses? Seriously? Are you even a lawyer? Have you even had a real job before?

What an idiot.

MWE associates this year were hosed. Senior associates were hung out to dry and given paltry sums, if anything, while junior associates had bonuses that, despite billing the same number of hours, were vastly different. If MWE thinks they can treat their associates this way, they are going to be sorely disappointed when the waves of associates begin leaving and there is no one willing to come to MWE to replace them.

http://i.somethingawful.com/inserts/articlepics/photoshop/12-21-07-time/DocHudson1.jpg

10:00 - Great idea! How about we celebrate it with bunnies and colorful eggs and a great big meal . . . oh wait, that's how you celebrate it.

So appropriate.

3:58 makes a good point. I actually bought all the "we value our associates crap" that Fish fed me as I interviewed with them this past year. I lateralled to Fish partly because I would not have to take a cut in pay, my old firm having been on the same NY scale.

I have no idea whether I'll get a bonus, or how much it'll be, but I do know they basically lied to me about pay.

I got a one year membership in the Jelly of the Month club.

9:56 says, "What would be interesting to see though is whether any firms with substantially above market PPP (1.5M plus) fail to pay the NYC bonus."

I will tell you that Orrick has PPP over 1.5M and it still hasn't announced any response to the NY market bonus. Maybe they are just waiting for the California market to settle, which is getting close but Latham still needs to speak up for that to happen.

So...the highest billing associate in Hogan DC is worth less than the NY associate that hits 2000 hours?

Way to treat the DC associates right, Hogan. Wait, remind me. Which one is the home office?

Some people are predicting mass lateral moves, in this thread and others, but why would that be the case? If most firms aren't matching, it seems that there wouldn't' be enough room in the matching firms to absorb all the grumbling associates. Moreover, why should the partners give a crap if grunt A or grunt B is doing the work? I'm sure the valued associates get their bonuses regardless, and as for the rest, I suppose it's the firm's way of saying "look how much we care about you."

My firm hasn't announced yet, but I'm delusional enough to think that they'll be sad to see me go if they don't pay me well. And my options would, by and large, be limited to other like firms, unless I luck out and get into one of the 3 or 4 firms that really matched with no strings.

that should read "not delusional enough to think ... ". although i suppose in some ways i am delusional just by posting on this site.

What did Morgan Lewis do in DC?

I have a good friend who is a senior associate at Dickstein. The people denouncing Dickstein may be exaggerating a bit. The checks at Dickstein did arrive, they were simply delayed in the interoffice mail getting from the DC office to the NY office. As for the amount, I know my friend received a proper "regular" bonus, just no "special" bonus (which I did not think Dickstein was issuing), and he did NOT bill a monster amount. As for the possibility of the office closing, that would seem to be inconsistent with everything I had heard from my friend.

I'll second the comments from 8:51. Dickstein has never been a big bonus shop... I'm not entirely sure where the overreaction came from. From what I hear, bonuses are consistent with what they have been in previous years in DC.

I also know for sure DS just signed a monster new lease for their NY office for 2009 occupancy, so that should stand as a measure of commitment to that office.

Its freaking 10:41 on Sunday night before alleged "holidays" and I'm stuck here working, and will be working for the next 2 days putting in more than 12 hours both days (if I'm lucky)....gotta love biglaw...can't wait to dump this shit and go in-house...goldman where is the offer I was promised??

Well, it seems that 8:51 and 9:00 are the same partner trying to soften the shaft provided to Dickstein associates.

Hey 11:05- I am not 9:00, and I am also not a Dickstein partner. To show my "bona fides", here is a bit of info about the Dickstein associate in question, you may know him if you are there. Here's a hint- while in law school, he shattered the nose of an undergrad who was bothering a friend of his, and he also also knocked a fellow law student unconscious with one hit.

Hey 12:24 - I am a lawyer. A former v5 associate. I lateraled midyear a couple of years ago (June) and had my recruiter get a written commitment that I would get a market bonus that would not be pro rated.

I didn't give a sh*t if they paid all of their associates a market bonus. Just me.

Maybe you should have worked a little harder in law school and started out at a real firm. Or maybe you should grow a pair.

Hey 2:03: It will be interesting to see what Orrick does. Way earlier this year, Orrick decided to do structure a bonus program where all offices were paid the same in bonuses. It certainly would prompt a lot of grumbling among West coast associates if NY (and DC) bonuses shake out way different 9 months after that announcement.

When it came to associate compensation, Orrick jumped out in front and set the new salaries on the west coast. Will it lead when it comes to bonuses or is it content to let some other firm dictate what happens? Time will tell.

What kills me is that this whole special bonus phenomenon supposedly arose out of boom years. If that's the case, this special bonus should only be paid out by firms who really had boom years and special boom year bonuses should be paid out to all the associates who gave the partners such high PPP numbers. It seems to me that firms with presence both inside and outside of NY ought to be paying out special bonuses to all their deserving associates.

That's the gift that keeps on givin', 1:53.

12:15

credited

Anyone have bonus information for Brown Rudnick?

8:51, your 11:27 post about how tough your friend is was a joke, right? There are so many things wrong with that post that it just cannot be real.

What is this Dickstein firm? Is this a real place?

"he shattered the nose of an undergrad who was bothering a friend of his, and he also also [sic] knocked a fellow law student unconscious with one hit"

Sounds like Springer.

I think it is safe to assume that most of you posting here are not the "superstars" of your firm you think you are. Also, it is probably safe to say most partners believe it is better to worry about the top 15% of associates who actually do most of the work, than worry about the middle 70% and bottom 15% who can be replaced with a snap of a finger or simply dismissed and not missed. All this said, I believe a lot of firms are paying the "discretionary" bonuses to the top associates, as they should. What business (other than law firms) pay all employees the same regardless of performance? No successful business. I challenge all of you to name a business that does this and has sustained growing profits year over year. No, I'm not a partner...I'm just a realist. If you want your bonus, go earn it.

123 speaketh the truth

stars are always taken care of and it you aint taken care of, you aint a star (your top 125 USNEWS JD notwithstanding)

I love reading the comments from TTT law firm associates threatening to leave if their firm does not match bonus. As if there is some kind of magical market paying firm eagerly waiting to hire a bunch of TTTs.

word on the street - if you want to know of a high PPP firm($2.5MM + or so it claims) that's not paying marking bonus cahill gordon's not paying full bonus (plus special bonus) to many of their associates.

"All this regional, east coast-west coast, NY-DC, whiny bullshit is totally ridiculous. The last round of salary raises has finally produced some much-needed stratification among long firms. Among "biglaw" firms, there are wide variations in profitability. Their should be differences in compensation."

* * * * *

I don't have a problem with stratification between firms: It makes perfect sense that Wachtell pays more than Cravath and that Cravath pays more than Sheppard Mullins. What makes ZERO sense, and what I DO have a problem with is the same law firm paying its NYC associates more than its DC or CA associates, even when these associates are working on the exact same matters and billing the same amounts.

I'm at a "California" firm. We talk a lot about how we are "one firm," etc. Many deals/cases/investigations are staffed across offices. And yet a NYC first year associate will pull down more money than a CA fourth year associate.

And don't tell me that NYC associates are billing more: They aren't. (For example, I think I read somewhere here that Latham's NY office was FIFTH in terms of hours billed.) Nor are the NYC offices more profitable; even if some associates can be billed out at a higher rate, the increased costs of office rent, etc., surely eat into that margin. More to the point, the increased billing rate has nothing to do with the talent or ability of the associate, and everything to do with the office where they happened to work. Plus, you can't tell me that a NYC Hogan associate billing 2000 hours is more profitable than a DC Hogan associate billing 2400 . . . and yet based on these charts, the NYC associate likely makes a whole lot more.

Finally, how can Orrick and Kirkland pay this kind of money? I don't think the hours at Orrick or Kirkland are so much worse than at OMM, Gibson, Latham, MoFo, so what are they doing differently?

1:23 and 1:34: Fair enough. I think the issue people have is with these firms claiming to give market bonuses when they only give market bonuses to (as you've pointed out) a certain percentage of the class. I don't mind not being a superstar, I mind being bullshitted.

Okay, Mr. California firm, let me explain to you how markets work. We are paid based upon the demand for our services versus the supply of us lawyers. In New York City there are at least fifty big law shops all doing, broadly speaking, high level work. Some of those shops are relatively small (i.e., fifty lawyers) and some are large (i.e., 500+). The result is a demand for well over 10,000 associates, I'd guess close to 20,000, at any one time. There are also another fifty shops doing pretty good work. They are a little smaller, but still pay six figures and some even pay NY market to high billers. Let's tack on another 5,000 positions to fill. There are also many large financial companies, hedge funds, private equity shops etc. They also have positions for lawyers and they frequently skim the top associates with promises of more money and less work. The number of ex-lawyers working for those institutions probably equals the number of associates at any time. So we are probably looking at, ballpark, 50,000 positions that need to be filled. This creates a high level of demand and demand increases our wages.

Now let's go to Dallas. There are less than 20 big time firms. There offices are much smaller. The financial player offices are smaller as well. The result is well under 25,000 associates positions and far fewer in-house opportunities. So a firm that needs an associate is not competing with the same number of people for that associate's services, hence the firm can get away with paying them less.

Note that billing rates, hours worked, cost of living etc. did not get mentioned above. Those may or may not also play a factor in New York higher bonuses, but they really aren't necessary. The reality of a New York associate is that if you don't like your current firm there is probably another firm in the building next door to you that will pay you market. Your client's offices are just down the street as well. You can switch easily without even changing the subway that you take to work. Other