I'm going to convert to judaism just for the mandated laziness.

"company holiday party?" what's that, you and merck doing shots in the kitchen?

Matzohgate

Are you crashing firm holiday parties now? That would be amazing. If you aren't, then you should be. Someone needs to document which secretary wears the most inappropriate outfit.

Goys will be goys...

Dreidelgate

Schoenfeld's List?

Never Forget Your Blackberry.

Oy vey.

country club lawfirm?

stop being a yenta

The complaint, conspicuously I think, does not mention when the parter learned that this guy was observant and wouldn't work saturdays. Did he know this when he hired him?

And shouldn't the plaintiff disclose this in the hiring process? I'm guessing the law says no, he doesn't have to. But I think fairness demands that you tell a large firm that you're not available for half the weekend if they're going to hire you.

MatzaGate

Shabbatshafted.

hhhmm....guy sounds like a took but it's at least a colorable claim. most of the claims are appropriately styled in re religion, but i don't see how he can make out a claim for discrimination on the basis of "race" as he does in Count 1. Also, why the hell doesn't he make a straight up first amendment claim? seems weird.

This isn't usually a problem at law firms; we're in New York. I think it's just because it's a british firm, and Britons hate all Jews who aren't Amy Winehouse.

6:22

I'm sorry, is that law you're spewing? Leave the site, please. Reserved for trash and gossip. Not a single person anywhere cares what you think of the law or wants to hear your tedious monologue.

Shabbatfreude

He got Judge Baer, who's a loose cannon, Jewish, liberal, and likes to move cases quickly. Defendant should just settle now.

My Name is Asher Lazy

Too easy. Allen & Oy-vey!-ry.

6:22:

"The complaint, conspicuously I think, does not mention when the parter learned that this guy was observant and wouldn't work saturdays. Did he know this when he hired him?

And shouldn't the plaintiff disclose this in the hiring process? I'm guessing the law says no, he doesn't have to. But I think fairness demands that you tell a large firm that you're not available for half the weekend if they're going to hire you."

you obviously cant read. it clearly says he knew before

greedy slacker:

try living as an orthodox jew who keeps kashrut shabbat purety law...prays threetimes a day..and puts aside time for learning religious studies every day..and then tell me we have mandated laziness

This is a fucking disgrace.

What's up with him working at Andrews Kurth for a year, leaving to go to an unnamed firm (referred to only as "NYC Firm") then coming back after a month? Why is "NYC Firm" not named? Also, he started at Andres Kurth in '05 but is a '99 law grad. Where did he work previously? Also, why is the partner's move from Mayer Brown to A&O material? My gut tells me this guy's a bit of a wacko who was let go for legitimate reasons and is playing the anti-Semitic card for revenge/cash. Just MHO.

Saturday, Donny, is the Jewish day of rest. I don't cook, I don't drive a car, I don't fucking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't turn the oven on, and I sure as shit DON'T FUCKING ROLL! Shomer Shabbos!

"several Jewish holidays during September 2007."

Those sound like really important holidays.

6:32 wins.

Hear hear! 6:32 (1) is a clear winner with "Allen & Oy-vey!-ry"

6:32 (aka jew)

I too am a jew, but I agree with greedy slacker. This guy better wake the fuck up. This is 2007 (almost 2008) and if you're going to work Biglaw, then you're working Saturdays.

I'm sure he'd rather be praying three times a day, but, guess what, nobody gives a shit. I'd rather be sleeping till noon, seeing movies all day, and having beers by 5pm. Guess we can't all get what we want.

"plaintiff religious observance of the sabbath required him to rfrian form work each week from sundown friay evening through sundown sunday. ALTHOUGH WOJEIECHOWSKI WAS AWARE OF AND PURPOTED TO AGREE..OBSERVANCE plaintiff encountered resistance and discrimination from the beginning of his employment at the firm because of his religion"

(empahsis added)

Actually 6:32 is spewing bullshit. Where in the complaint does it say they knew of his observance BEFORE they hired him? Certainly after

6:41 also cant read

paragraph 19

Observing traditional Jewish law is as good a reason to get paid leave as knocking someone up is.

Jews vs. Brits is the new Ninjas vs. Pirates.

6:32:

Could you be a little more hypersensitive please?

Hate to be a law tool but 6:25 I think you meant to ask why he didn't file a Title VII claim for employment discrimination on the basis of religion. No allegation that the firm treats people differently on the basis of race.

The complaint's a stinker, though the "three heads" line is creative.

Exodus...

The Chosen... and then Fired...

i don't know the law but i take it that if he's fired for not pulling his share no matter if the cause is religious observance, it's OK. but if he's fired for being a member of a religion, it's not OK.

is that right?

You don't need to work on Saturday to bill 2500 - 3000. I know plenty of associates who do that at Wachtell, S and C, Simpson, etc. If you are billing that much then people should shut up. There are plenty of lazy people who work on Saturdays but never make it past 1700. I think that if you get work done a 24 hour window that is predictable every week is not a big deal. I'd take a quality lawyer billing close to 3K hours who takes one day over someone who is available 24/7 but works 9-5, five days a week, if that.

Sorry to interrupt with a serious question--how do NY firms deal with Jewish holidays and vacation time?

6:52:

Well, if you're asking about A&O, the answer is apparently not that well.

I see he retained the attorney who just took down Madison Square Garden, I guess he's pretty serious about this.

Think she would take the case if she didnt think he had a claim?

652 - At my firm, we have an unlimited number of days to use for Jewish holidays. Pretty sweet deal.

All observant Jews who pull the Friday night/Saturday disappearing act should be paid 6/7 the salary of their class and have their bonuses pro-rated accordingly. Also, they should have to use vacation days for the insane number of holidays that they take.

Such a scam.

Shrankshaw Redemption

6:46...right, not first amendment b/c no state action. quick blog analysis is sloppy. I meant Title VII.

I was trying to close a deal in September 2007, and I can tell you that there were a lot of Jewish holidays that month and it made it difficult to get everything done. I can understand that someone might flip if those holidays were in addition to being gone 7 - 7 Friday through Saturday. Maybe the guy got all of his work done, but it sure didn't help the stress level of the partner.

I don't see the discrimination claim - people have to work on other religious holidays, too. I don't see how he gets to be free one day a week if everyone else is expected to work. But, I'm not a labor lawyer - I work for the man.

I bill 2500 hours a year in 6/7 the days (I work to make up for lost time). I have a feeling that there is an intelligent firm out there that would like my 2500 and will pay me 7/7 of my salary and bonus. I have a feeling that they would rather pay me and my hard-working, high-quality-work producing behind over a slacking associate who has no time restictions on him/her, but doesn't produce in terms of hours or products.

Don't get all cranky on all sabbath observant jews. With that being said, if there is a sabbath observant jew billing 1600 -1700 hours in a shop where everyone else is billing 2K, I say drop kick him/her out the door if he is using his observance as an excuse not to put in hours over all. Then again, unless the firm is slow, I think biglaw should drop kick out associates billing 1600-1700 regardless of the excuse.

ChutzpahGate

7:00, don't they already use vacation days for holidays during the week? I am fairly sure they do.

I'm just a paralegal (and yes, I'll make that binder for you right away, sir) at a v10 firm, but this is extremely disheartening in this day and age. It's not that hard (even for a paralegal) to see which attorneys are slackers and which are not. There are plenty of observant Jewish attorneys who are shomer shabbos and do a way better job than their non-observant and non-Jewish counterparts, and there are also those who don't do as good of a job. Some do even hide behind their religious observance. That is regrettable. But it seems pretty universally recognized by now, in the year 2007, that being shomer shabbos is not a detriment to productivity and billing.

The case seems pretty straightforward, especially in BigLaw where there are already thousands of observant Jews in the same exact position and not experiencing this sort of discrimination and also debunking the crude and uninformed biases in the above posts. It's interesting that the anonymity of a blog post can elicit some of these blatantly anti-semitic comments.

The unnamed NYC firm was SRZ.

7:00 - dumbest post today. What about the rest of us who pull the Friday night disappearing act because its...well, Friday night??

The SCH should have told the partner that he was going to be out a lot in Sept. The partner should have asked for a different associate to facilitate the close. A different associate should have been staffed on the deal in advance of the close. SCH should then have been assigned another deal with plenty of hours to make up for it (assuming he was off a reasonable billing pace). End of story.

Matzoh Balls: Allen & Overy and The Circumcised Career

The day I get every fucking Sunday off for being Christian, I'll give a rat's ass about some joker who thinks his CHOICE of a religion ENTITLES him to have a 24-hour window off each week. I like the arguments by several of the Jews on here that if they are doing qualify work, a smart firm would not mind. I agree 100%. But that is a rational choice by a rational economic actor in the marketplace, not their fucking entitlement. If a partner calls me up on Tuesday and tries to make me work Christmas, I'll quit and get a different job; I won't cry that I'm being discriminated against.

Schoenfeld would have had a much better case if he was employed at Dewey. Oh well....

There are Sunday sabbath associates (not jewish) who don't work on Sunday at my firm. Some make up for it the rest of the week, some don't. Those that don't often don't get work and leave eventually. Those that do have no problems.

You guys are completely insane. In what other profession is being available every single day at every single hour a requirement of the job? Since when is it okay for an employer to mandate that someone not keep their religious observances? Or are only people of certain religious affiliations allowed to work at law firms? And how is that not discrimination?

I do the whole don't work on friday evening- saturday; but I come in saturday night and sunday to make up for it. I really don't think it's an extreme burden on my firm; because i always volunteer to work whenever i can. I'll be here on christmas, new years, 4th of july, and any sunday/saturday night without as much as a whimper.

I'm not saying ortho jews shouldn't appreciate the allowance to be out of commission every week; i just think we aren't taking advantage if we compensate accordingly.

What is the name of the firm that gives unlimited Jewish holidays? At my firm I have 2 'free' days and the rest are out of leave.

There are plenty of variants of Christianity that forbid Sunday work. Most adherents to those religions are inbred dipshits, so it rarely causes an issue.

This looks much worse for A&O than Charney's complaint did for S&C.

Lat - can you do a thread on 7.48's post comparing firms? This is a big issue for some people!

7:18 - Very well said. Don't call yourself "just" a paralegal, you are obvsiouly much more thoughtful than some of the fucking morons on this board, like 6:38, 7:00 and 7:24.

7:00 - since you are a jew yourself, you must already be aware that we don't all have horns, right?

7:24 - if you were a religious Christian, and you told your firm you had to be in church every Sunday morning, and your firm told you that you'd have to work, you would have a claim too.

These are LEGITIMATELY HELD, REAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, people. Beliefs that were held long before anyone was trying to game a system in BigLaw.

7:24, the difference is that orthodox Jews are prohibited by the Torah from working on the Sabbath and certain holidays. Keeping the Sabbath is a "choice" to a religious Jew as much as paying taxes or not stealing is a choice for all people. If the partner I work for told me that I had to cancel my vacation plans (for non-religious purposes) that I had cleared with him 6 months ago, I can make the rational economic decision to go on the vacation and say screw him, or cancel the vacation and be the loyal associate. But if he tells me to work on the Sabbath, I have no rational "choice" but to refrain from working.

Oops, meant to direct the first comment at 6:38, not 7:00.

Upon information and belief, the highest biller at Cravath is an orthodox Jew

Shomer-FUCKING-Shabbos-gate

7:59 - you're missing the point that you're trying to rebut. 7:24 said that religion is a choice, and it is.

Bad move by A&O angering the Jews, since the Jews control all the banks, the media and the government. Next thing you know A&O will fire a Free Mason.

8:05 - If your boss told you to shred documents that were explicitly requested by an opposing party during discovery, do you have a choice in the matter? On the one hand is the continuation of your employment and on the other is your legal ethics. Violating one's religious ethics (breaking the Sabbath) is a choice as much as violating one's legal ethics is a choice.

For all those that think there's a significant number of sabbath-observant jews out there "slacking off" in large law firms, look around a bit.

Notice there are a pretty high proportion of sabbath-observers in big law in places like NYC. Do you really think it's that difficult to tell that someone is an observant jew after 2-3 rounds of interviews and job applications and questionnaires? (If their names aren't a dead giveaway, then check their education on their resumes) But there's a damn good reason why law firms have little or no qualms about hiring them - because they tend to work hard and meet or exceed firm expectations. Maybe it has to do with their upringing, maybe their religious indoctrination, maybe their talmud studies, hell - maybe it's their fear of god. Bottom line is - you generally don't see them slacking off. Look how many of them are making partner in large firms.

And I've seen sabbath-observers bill 2500, 3000 and even 3500 hours. Yes, that's possible, and it doesn't take a 7-day week to pull it off.

I second Allen & Oy-vey-ry. Simple yet refined.

highest biller at Wachtell

moe people missign the point:

not about wheter its a piad holiday

not about whether he must take laeve for it.

it about him wanting to use his leave and not being allowed...you cant just use leave whenever you want..has to be approved.

its not being approved because they need him during certain times.

7:13. Yes, being expected to work 7 days a week is insane. So are the salaries paid to biglaw associates. We choose to work at biglaw because we want the paycheck and are willing to work 7 days a week to get it. If you aren't willing to work that much, you work somewhere else. Then you can take the Sabbath off, whatever day your chosen religion celebrates it. This loser needs to get a job outside of biglaw.

oops. i meant to type 7:33.

Th Managing Partner at Proskauer is an orthodox jew, somehow I dont think this would be a problem there. This is a British firm that is growing in NY and obviously is not aware of the fact that there are orthodox jews all over the New York big firms and thats the way it works here

oh god, here comes the jewish supremacist crowd.

Well, if anyone thought that anti semitism wasnt a problem anymore, at least this blog has proven its as strong as ever. Congrats everyone

8:34, yes but the offending partner at A&O had just come over from Mayer Brown. Thus, his attitude couldn't have been just an A&O culture-instilled thing.

But if Shrank hadn't been indoctrinated with the European mentality, he would have dealt with the issue appropriately

Exactly 8:43, but this is NY, its a Highly populated Jewish city, and just because you dont know any better doesnt mean you can do what A&O did

Well, if anyone thought that anti semitism wasnt a problem anymore, at least this blog has proven its as strong as ever. Congrats everyone

I don't think it's anti-semitism. It's more these commenters are jealous of their jewish colleagues who duck out early on fridays.

If they would bother comparing their hours, they'd realize everyone's on the same page anyway, since the sabbath-keepers work late on thursdays and often on saturday nights and sundays.

"Show me the Shabbas"
"Payas Discrimination?"
"I Don't Roll on Shabbas"

Actually, it raises a pretty basic question about 1981. Do employers need to prove that a religious practice actually interferes with the work performance?If the cases comes down to Employer saying "he didn't get the job done" and employee saying "yes I did" who is to decide that? I guess you could bring in people to testify about the needs of Allen & Overy partners... seems strange.

I say the case should go forward. If discovery unearths statements where the boss says something anti-Semetic about the plaintiff, that's pretty cut and dry. But if it only shows him fretting that the no-saturday policy is interfering with his work, do we really want juries to decide whether or not this was a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification." I'm not so sure . . .

8:29(1): Kind of difficult to get your point, since you are incoherent.

8:38: Who would be so naive to think anti-semitism isn't a problem anymore?!

Well, if anyone thought that anti semitism wasnt a problem anymore, at least this blog has proven its as strong as ever. Congrats everyone

I don't think it's anti-semitism. It's more these commenters are jealous of their jewish colleagues who duck out early on fridays.

If they would bother comparing their hours, they'd realize everyone's on the same page anyway, since the sabbath-keepers work late on thursdays and often on saturday nights and sundays.

7:59: Religion is a choice. Holding whacked out views requiring you to take Saturday off is a result of choice, pure and simple.

I hope that people do not mistake comments on this board a pure antisemitism. I say this as a sabbath observant jew. To be clear, there is clearly resentment about observant jews being unavailable on sabbath and holidays. However, I am sure some of these comments are made by jews too. There has not been a generic backlash against all Jews, just observant Jews.

On that topic, I don't think that the hours that observant jews work which are cited on this board is the case of elitism. It is simply a response to claims that observant jews are lazy and shirk work by taking off every week for 24 hours. The fact is that many orthodox jews work very hard and will put in hours commensurate with non-observant jews and non-jews alike.

A and O would have been best served to freeze to act like most other firms. That is, they should have frozen out an underperforming associate. The issue at hand is was he underperforming generally and this was an exception or was this indicative of his entire work product.

To me, the question has to do with whether a Jew is a sincere observant Orthodox Jew, or a left-wing Jew who uses religion as an excuse to get the extra day of. If someone wears the yarmulke, eats kosher and claims to follow the Sabbath, it's usually fairly safe to assume that he is in fact an observant Orthodox Jew, and I have no problem with him taking time of for religious observance (assuming, of course, that their overall work product makes up for the time off that they are taking -- which is usually the case, as others have mentioned on this thread). But if someone never appears to care about religion or to do anything differently from left-wing Jews, except for not working on Friday night/Saturday, then that would look suspicious.

Note that I am not personally aware of any non-observant Jew who masquerades as Orthodox to shirk work, so this may not happen often for all I know, but this is something to keep in mind.

If nothing else, the fact that this guy went to Touro College should have been a clue as to the degree of his religious observance.

I'm a Jew and I see no antisemitism in this blog. Some of us are simply illustrating how extremist, literalist interpretations of any religious doctrine can result in unfortunate situations. This holds true whether we're discussing Christian extremists, Muslim extremists, or Jewish extremists. Just another example of religion gone wild.

How many holidays can there be in one month?

7:59 - your ignorance is so obvious from your post that I wouldn't even bother to argue with you if I didn't think it was worth it for you to learn.

However, because you seem to harbor dislike for your jewish colleagues out of jealousy (which in my view, is a form of anti-semistism - it doesn't have to be spray painting swastikas on synogagues!), I would encourage you to read up on what it means to be an observant Jew rather than jumping to stupid conclusions on a message board, which conclusions are based on the narrow observation of the people who wear the funny hats on their heads leaving the office early on a Friday.

I meant 8:49.

How many holidays were there this past september?

For most even mildly observant jews (think easter & christmas catholics), there are 3 days--the most important holidays of the year--2 days of Rosh Hashannah and 1 of Yom Kippur.

Take a step up from that to even mildly orthodox, and there's another important holiday that takes another 2 days--Sukkot.

Agreed - the highest biller in the M&A group at two shops I've been at in NY - Sidley and Gibson Dunn - are orthodox Jews. Who cares?

If A&O really did this - and this is at the complaint stage people - they are in deep doo-doo.

I think what sucks is that even a "truly" observant Catholic could never get away with such a thing on account of their faith or belief, or whatever really really real religion motivates any devout person.

Are Sundays so much to ask for?

Sounds like the better question here is why to sabbath-observant jews work so damn hard?

Isn't it strange that they're leading in billables at more than a few large firms, chairing a couple of top firms, making partner everywhere. Overachievers?

A truly religious catholic could get away with this. You have to be consistent and draw your religious lines firmly and clearly at the outset. If you deviate at all, then you're betraying your degree of observance. Most people aren't religious enough to stand up and be clear about it. those that are generally do.

9:01: You are correct that there is no anti-semitism on this thread; this is just classic liberal hate for anything religious. The commenters who deride Orthodox Jews are the same liberals who mock Christians day after day on this site.

For the record, who exactly are the "Christian extremists" or the "Jewish extremists"? Are these including everyone who disagrees with abortion, homosexuality and evolution, or anyone who follows the Sabbath and eats kosher? Because if you really want to use a derogatory label to describe anyone who takes their religion seriously, you might want to use a different word from the one that you use for "Muslim extremists" who, you know, *kill* people.

I thought of Allen & Oy-vey-ry, too, but "Matzoh Balls: The Circumcised Career" cracks me up.

Or maybe . . .
Shofar, So Long: Hath Not A Jew Severance?

or:
If You Prick Him, Does He Not Sue?

I may be wrong on this, but a truly observant Catholic (and I remove the quotes from "truly" intentionally) does not have to adhere to equivalent religious concepts of not being allowed to turn on lights, get in a car, use any form of electricity, etc. on their Sabbath.

If a truly observant Catholic told their employer that he or she absolutely needed to be in church every Sunday morning, he or she would have the same claim if forced to work by the employer.

Think before you speak.

Fed Soc, maybe "Christian extremists" refers to people who bomb abortion clinics and, you know, *kill* people?

unamed NYC Firm = Cock & Balls LLP

8:49's post isnt anti-semetic? Referring to observant jews as "holding whacked out views" is disrespectful and flat out anti-semetic. Between the anti-jew comments here and the anti-women comments on the earlier post about the paid caregiver leave, the posters on ABL have sunk to a new low today by blatantly promoting a view that the only people deserving of big law are non-jewish males.

9:20: Maybe so, which is why I asked. I don't disagree that the 5 or so Christians who bombed abortion clinics in the history of America are extremists, but my guess is that 9:01 believes that Christian extremists include far more than these 5 or so people.

i wonder what the law is on this. surely there has been a case on this issue re: orthodox observances.

9:24, I find 8:49's comment as repulsive as any comment on this thread, but is it really anti-semitic? My guess is that the guy would also describe any devout Catholic, practicing Mormon or fundamentalist protestant as "holding whacked out views" and wouldn't have much of a problem with atheist Jews. If I am correct as to these assumptions, would you still say that 8:49 is anti-semitic?

Fed Soc, i see your point, but disparaging someone's religious beliefs shows intolerance. And where, as here, its an intolerance for orthodox religious beliefs, its anti-semetic. 8:49 may hate all religions equally as you suggest (which i doubt) but still doesnt change the fact that in this particular instance, his view-directed at orthrodox views- is anti-semetic.

Late August was a bad time for this guy to start, considering that there were 6 days of Jewish holidays that fell on weekdays this past fall, all of which an observant Orthodox Jew would observe and need to be absent from work. Since the Jewish calendar is lunar, most of the holidays fall on weekdays every few years. This year:

Rosh Hashana: Sept 13-14 (Thurs/Fri)
Yom Kippur: Sept 22 (Sat)
Succot: Sept 27-28 (Thurs/Fri)
Shemini Atzeret/Simchat Torah: Oct 4-5 (Thurs/Fri)

Forget religious tolerance. Schoenfeld worked at Fried Frank, Shulte Roth and Andrews Kurth. He was never fired for sub par work. No one ever complained about his work being deficient. When he complains about getting emails on Sabbath requiring an immediate answer and he complains about it, all of a sudden he does lousy work?

Let's face the facts, if you go to any law firm in NYC there will be plenty of orthodox jewish attorney's working there. They all take off sabbath and jewish holidays. Yet they always manage to keep their jobs. The only firm that has issue is a British law firm trying to create a presence in NY.

BIG mistake for A&O to get a name for being intolerant to orthodox jews.

7:59...so your point is that these people do not have a choice because the Torah says so? What if one interprets the Bible as saying that homosexuals are damned (the whole "Soddom and Gommorah" nonsense)? If such a person became a partner, would that mean they would have legitimate grounds for refusing to work with a gay associate?

I know it is a bit of a drastic comparison, but my point is that choosing to follow your religious beliefs, however sincere they may be, is in fact a choice.

for those people who think orthodox jews are shirking work on saturdays, it's not as if they are getting hammered and watching college football. they are going to temple and generally doing religious stuff all day. it's not a walk in the park: as a non-observant jew, i would much rather spend a day at the office than in temple. as long as the observant person (regardless of religion) uses the rest of their week to get their work done, it shouldn't matter that they are out for certain days.

and if the firm was open on christmas, i'm sure the orthodox would be there billing.

9:37 = myor lansky/hymen roth. ha.

Not to defend 8:49, but is he (or she) saying Jews are "whacked out" or merely that the practice of not working on Saturday is "whacked out"? Maybe he just thinks anyone, Jewish or otherwise, who refuses to work on a given day is "whacked out". Anti-semitic? Let's not throw allegations like that around like it's nothing.

I agree with 9:35. An equal opportunity biggot is still a biggot. Some comments here clearly exhibit not only a lack of respect, but actual disdain and disapproval, of an orthodox jew practising in biglaw (i.e. calling them "lazy" or saying they should earn less because they only work 6/7 days a week). To me, that is clear anti-semetism. The fact that these same posters may hate other religions too doesnt change this.

I agree with Fed Soc. 8:49 is merely voicing his/her view that religion is a choice that people make. It's dangerous and incendiary to assume that someone dislikes Jews when an ordinary reading of the comment reveals a disdain for religion in general; not any specific dislike for Jews.

I have no religious beliefs, that is to say that I don't have a dog in this race.

This all sounds rather fishy, and I cannot believe they couldn't find a way to work around this and respect this guys beliefs. There are PLENTY of orthodox jews at my firm, and I have NEVER seen it be a problem.

I am not sure how this firm being a British firm is all that relevant to the discussion, as the guy he was work with had not been at the firm all that long.

9:35 = 9:46. They both don't like 8:49 and can't spell "anti-semitic".

I am 9:46, but only spelled anti-semtic wrong becase i was referring to and looking at the 9:35 post which spelled it wrong. but nice attempt to be all CSI-ATL.

and yes, i know i spelled it wrong again...

Question for the Jews: Do Orthodox Jews who follow the Sabbath also wear the hat and do the other things? Because I very rarely see a Jew wearing the hat at my firm, which makes me think there are very few Orthodox Jews.

If a Jew who isn't really Orthodox asks to take the day of for religious reasons should he still be able to?

9:43...

That's an interesting viewpoint, but let's assume instead that you are a married man or woman with 3 kids, who you don't see all week due to your job as an associate on a high-stress deal. Let's also assume that you are working around-the-clock on the weekend while your orthodox colleague (same family situation) is able to spend 24 hours with his family, irregardless of the fact that they are worshipping together rather than watching football.

Are you still sure he isn't benefitting, particularly if you get absolutely no time off with your family over the weekend because you are doing the job of 2 people so that he can be observant?

Seems to me like you would think you were getting fucked...

9:39: I think your comparison is unfair. The Bible explicitly says not to work on the Sabbath but doesn't explicitly say anything about not working with homosexuals.

To be sure, many Biblical sins are listed with punishments but those punishments can only be enforced by God or by courts with certain procedural safeguards and not by individuals through stigma.

If a religious person won't work with sinners then he/she would have a tough time working alone, let alone with others...

Does anyone know/worked with the plaintiff at FF/SR?

9:58:

A little research would reveal that "the hat" you are referring to is called a yarmulke (pronounced yah-mick-uh). Calling it "the hat" is a smidgen insulting.

I think 9:58 might be thinking about the brimmed hats worn by some Hasidic Jews.

9:49,

the orthodox jew is doing the work of 2 people because his wife is at home raising their many children. orthodox breed a LOT and most of the women don't work once they start having children. and it's not like observing sabbath is optional; it is one of the ten commandments: "remember the sabbath and keep it holy."

it would be one thing if the orthodox didn't make it up during the other days they are at work, but as many commenters on this board have pointed out, they do.

personally, i do not believe in organized religion. but i don't sweat people who have sincerely held religious beliefs; that is their prerogative. i have worked with plenty of orthodox jews and they have always pulled their own weight and then some.

if you think you are getting fucked, go become religious and see how you enjoy it.

Some of the idiotic comments being made here remind me why things like the Holocaust happen. Ignorance, pure and simple. Has no one taken employment law here? You think reasonable accommodation doesn't apply to law firms? Get over yourselves. Just another example of BigLaw pretending it's more important than god. Literally!

many orthodox wear yarmulke at work, but others do not, presumably so they are not immediately labeled as "dirty jews" by people such as the many insensitive commenters on this board.

A lot of guys in my high school were Jewish, they missed Friday night parties way down yonder on the Chatahoochee all the time, it was no big deal.

There has been nothing anti-Semitic about ANY of this conversation. It's highly legitimate to ask just why wearing the little hat gets you a get-out-of-work early card on Friday.

My religion is college football; can I get Saturdays and all bowl games off?

THANKS LAT FOR BRINGING ALL OF THE ANTI-SEMITES OUT OF THE WOODWORK. IT IS MUCH APPRECIATED!

We're getting closer here...

At first, anyone who disagreed with this Plaintiff was alled anti-semitic.

Then, 8:47 said that its not anti-semitism as much as it is jealousy over a particular group having an excuse on Friday nights....which is very close to the truth I think.

I would take it slightly further and say its not jealousy exactly. Its more that many of us non-observant types are questioning why our free time is less respected because it doesn't follow under the precious label of religion.

When I want to spend quality time with my family or friends instead of work on a Saturday, that's not respected as an excuse (at least not if the work is "really important"). But when someone says its religious, a magic and untouchable line is drawn that a firm dare not cross, no matter how important the work is. Only maternity leave and family deaths are given similar respect.

That isn't the fault of any one firm or any one religion. It's the fault of a country that decided that church/synagogue/temple/etc is more important and special than all other activities, no matter how meaningful.

The question seems to be:

Is 24/7 availability a condition of Biglaw associate employment?

If yes, then his religious choice entitles him to 6/7ths of my salary. There are many Sundays where I would rather be in Church than the office, but this appears to me to be one of the conditions of my very lucrative employment.

If no, and it's just about getting the job done and the hours billed, then A&O rightly loses. The man has a sincere religious belief that he rightly wishes to observe.

My guts tell me A&O should lose here, but we all chose to do this job. I could put in 37.5 hours a week for the gov't, collect my 55k, and live in the suburbs. Instead I'm at work in a godless officetower until 2am every day making $200k. Seems it's the employer's right to demand this for the wage they pay me

If the allegations in the complaint are true (i.e. his performance and hours were good), then this case is very strong. One thing is suspicious though, I dont get the references to the undisclosed time at the (unamed) NYC firm. The only thing i came up with is that A&O may have used that as a reason for the termination and he wanted to premptively refute that.

the anti-semitism here is disgusting.

not as disgusting as going to a non-top 8 school, but close. very close.

9:46/Fed Soc:

Just to clear one thing up- ridiculing jewish religious practices (which I shamefully admit to having engaged in now and then) isn't anti-semitic. It's just ignorant and bigoted behaviour.

Anti-semitism is much worse. It's the deep hatred of all jews for being jews. Doesn't matter how religious you are or not, it's the crazy muslims and rednecks who think we aren't human because of our ancestry.

Insider Info - Guy was an underperforming Jackass

Why will you guys bill hours for faceless corporations but not fight in the Israeli army?

10:20 - totally agree with you. Good example from my firm: we had a senior associate who had been teaching his young son to play tennis practically since the day he was born. Poured his heart & soul into it - not in that overbearing, weird messed-up parent way, but in a good way. But so much so that everyone who worked with him (secretary, associates and yes, the partners) knew when the kid's first junior tennis tournament was going to be. You can guess the rest of the story - the guy had to miss his son's first match because of some weekend drafting session.

Now, I know the angry trolls on this board will criticize this one way or another, but to me, if that guy wants to see the kid's match as much as someone else wants to pray or whatever, I don't think its anyone's place to say its less important.

Actually Ashley, it IS someones place to say its less important. Federal law protects religious beliefs and requires employers to be accomodating to those who observe them. There is no legal requirement that employers accomodate sports events. And while do agree that the firm should have tried to accomodate the dad just as a matter of decency, to analogize it to this situation is ridiculous.

10:31, Is the Israeli army starting at $160k with bonuses in the 50k-75k range for class of 06? If so, I'm in.

American Heritage Dictionary - an·ti-Sem·ite (ān'tē-sěm'īt', ān'tī-)
n. One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

10:39 - I believe you will be called an anti-semite within the next 10 minutes.

10:39- you're legally right, but ethically I put them on the same plane

10:43- being a jew and practicing the different forms of our religion are different things

10:39: The salary isn't quite as good, but you do have the added bonus of possibly being captured by Hizbollah, or if you're really lucky, having Palestinian mortars fired at you from a few hundred yards away.