I'm going to convert to judaism just for the mandated laziness.

"company holiday party?" what's that, you and merck doing shots in the kitchen?

Matzohgate

Are you crashing firm holiday parties now? That would be amazing. If you aren't, then you should be. Someone needs to document which secretary wears the most inappropriate outfit.

Goys will be goys...

Dreidelgate

Schoenfeld's List?

Never Forget Your Blackberry.

Oy vey.

country club lawfirm?

stop being a yenta

The complaint, conspicuously I think, does not mention when the parter learned that this guy was observant and wouldn't work saturdays. Did he know this when he hired him?

And shouldn't the plaintiff disclose this in the hiring process? I'm guessing the law says no, he doesn't have to. But I think fairness demands that you tell a large firm that you're not available for half the weekend if they're going to hire you.

MatzaGate

hhhmm....guy sounds like a took but it's at least a colorable claim. most of the claims are appropriately styled in re religion, but i don't see how he can make out a claim for discrimination on the basis of "race" as he does in Count 1. Also, why the hell doesn't he make a straight up first amendment claim? seems weird.

Shabbatshafted.

This isn't usually a problem at law firms; we're in New York. I think it's just because it's a british firm, and Britons hate all Jews who aren't Amy Winehouse.

6:22

I'm sorry, is that law you're spewing? Leave the site, please. Reserved for trash and gossip. Not a single person anywhere cares what you think of the law or wants to hear your tedious monologue.

Shabbatfreude

He got Judge Baer, who's a loose cannon, Jewish, liberal, and likes to move cases quickly. Defendant should just settle now.

My Name is Asher Lazy

Too easy. Allen & Oy-vey!-ry.

6:22:

"The complaint, conspicuously I think, does not mention when the parter learned that this guy was observant and wouldn't work saturdays. Did he know this when he hired him?

And shouldn't the plaintiff disclose this in the hiring process? I'm guessing the law says no, he doesn't have to. But I think fairness demands that you tell a large firm that you're not available for half the weekend if they're going to hire you."

you obviously cant read. it clearly says he knew before

greedy slacker:

try living as an orthodox jew who keeps kashrut shabbat purety law...prays threetimes a day..and puts aside time for learning religious studies every day..and then tell me we have mandated laziness

This is a fucking disgrace.

What's up with him working at Andrews Kurth for a year, leaving to go to an unnamed firm (referred to only as "NYC Firm") then coming back after a month? Why is "NYC Firm" not named? Also, he started at Andres Kurth in '05 but is a '99 law grad. Where did he work previously? Also, why is the partner's move from Mayer Brown to A&O material? My gut tells me this guy's a bit of a wacko who was let go for legitimate reasons and is playing the anti-Semitic card for revenge/cash. Just MHO.

Saturday, Donny, is the Jewish day of rest. I don't cook, I don't drive a car, I don't fucking ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't turn the oven on, and I sure as shit DON'T FUCKING ROLL! Shomer Shabbos!

"several Jewish holidays during September 2007."

Those sound like really important holidays.

6:32 wins.

Hear hear! 6:32 (1) is a clear winner with "Allen & Oy-vey!-ry"

6:32 (aka jew)

I too am a jew, but I agree with greedy slacker. This guy better wake the fuck up. This is 2007 (almost 2008) and if you're going to work Biglaw, then you're working Saturdays.

I'm sure he'd rather be praying three times a day, but, guess what, nobody gives a shit. I'd rather be sleeping till noon, seeing movies all day, and having beers by 5pm. Guess we can't all get what we want.

"plaintiff religious observance of the sabbath required him to rfrian form work each week from sundown friay evening through sundown sunday. ALTHOUGH WOJEIECHOWSKI WAS AWARE OF AND PURPOTED TO AGREE..OBSERVANCE plaintiff encountered resistance and discrimination from the beginning of his employment at the firm because of his religion"

(empahsis added)

Actually 6:32 is spewing bullshit. Where in the complaint does it say they knew of his observance BEFORE they hired him? Certainly after

6:41 also cant read

paragraph 19

Observing traditional Jewish law is as good a reason to get paid leave as knocking someone up is.

Jews vs. Brits is the new Ninjas vs. Pirates.

6:32:

Could you be a little more hypersensitive please?

Hate to be a law tool but 6:25 I think you meant to ask why he didn't file a Title VII claim for employment discrimination on the basis of religion. No allegation that the firm treats people differently on the basis of race.

The complaint's a stinker, though the "three heads" line is creative.

Exodus...

The Chosen... and then Fired...

i don't know the law but i take it that if he's fired for not pulling his share no matter if the cause is religious observance, it's OK. but if he's fired for being a member of a religion, it's not OK.

is that right?

You don't need to work on Saturday to bill 2500 - 3000. I know plenty of associates who do that at Wachtell, S and C, Simpson, etc. If you are billing that much then people should shut up. There are plenty of lazy people who work on Saturdays but never make it past 1700. I think that if you get work done a 24 hour window that is predictable every week is not a big deal. I'd take a quality lawyer billing close to 3K hours who takes one day over someone who is available 24/7 but works 9-5, five days a week, if that.

Sorry to interrupt with a serious question--how do NY firms deal with Jewish holidays and vacation time?

6:52:

Well, if you're asking about A&O, the answer is apparently not that well.

I see he retained the attorney who just took down Madison Square Garden, I guess he's pretty serious about this.

Think she would take the case if she didnt think he had a claim?

652 - At my firm, we have an unlimited number of days to use for Jewish holidays. Pretty sweet deal.

All observant Jews who pull the Friday night/Saturday disappearing act should be paid 6/7 the salary of their class and have their bonuses pro-rated accordingly. Also, they should have to use vacation days for the insane number of holidays that they take.

Such a scam.

Shrankshaw Redemption

6:46...right, not first amendment b/c no state action. quick blog analysis is sloppy. I meant Title VII.

I was trying to close a deal in September 2007, and I can tell you that there were a lot of Jewish holidays that month and it made it difficult to get everything done. I can understand that someone might flip if those holidays were in addition to being gone 7 - 7 Friday through Saturday. Maybe the guy got all of his work done, but it sure didn't help the stress level of the partner.

I don't see the discrimination claim - people have to work on other religious holidays, too. I don't see how he gets to be free one day a week if everyone else is expected to work. But, I'm not a labor lawyer - I work for the man.

I bill 2500 hours a year in 6/7 the days (I work to make up for lost time). I have a feeling that there is an intelligent firm out there that would like my 2500 and will pay me 7/7 of my salary and bonus. I have a feeling that they would rather pay me and my hard-working, high-quality-work producing behind over a slacking associate who has no time restictions on him/her, but doesn't produce in terms of hours or products.

Don't get all cranky on all sabbath observant jews. With that being said, if there is a sabbath observant jew billing 1600 -1700 hours in a shop where everyone else is billing 2K, I say drop kick him/her out the door if he is using his observance as an excuse not to put in hours over all. Then again, unless the firm is slow, I think biglaw should drop kick out associates billing 1600-1700 regardless of the excuse.

ChutzpahGate

7:00, don't they already use vacation days for holidays during the week? I am fairly sure they do.

I'm just a paralegal (and yes, I'll make that binder for you right away, sir) at a v10 firm, but this is extremely disheartening in this day and age. It's not that hard (even for a paralegal) to see which attorneys are slackers and which are not. There are plenty of observant Jewish attorneys who are shomer shabbos and do a way better job than their non-observant and non-Jewish counterparts, and there are also those who don't do as good of a job. Some do even hide behind their religious observance. That is regrettable. But it seems pretty universally recognized by now, in the year 2007, that being shomer shabbos is not a detriment to productivity and billing.

The case seems pretty straightforward, especially in BigLaw where there are already thousands of observant Jews in the same exact position and not experiencing this sort of discrimination and also debunking the crude and uninformed biases in the above posts. It's interesting that the anonymity of a blog post can elicit some of these blatantly anti-semitic comments.

The unnamed NYC firm was SRZ.

7:00 - dumbest post today. What about the rest of us who pull the Friday night disappearing act because its...well, Friday night??

The SCH should have told the partner that he was going to be out a lot in Sept. The partner should have asked for a different associate to facilitate the close. A different associate should have been staffed on the deal in advance of the close. SCH should then have been assigned another deal with plenty of hours to make up for it (assuming he was off a reasonable billing pace). End of story.

Matzoh Balls: Allen & Overy and The Circumcised Career

The day I get every fucking Sunday off for being Christian, I'll give a rat's ass about some joker who thinks his CHOICE of a religion ENTITLES him to have a 24-hour window off each week. I like the arguments by several of the Jews on here that if they are doing qualify work, a smart firm would not mind. I agree 100%. But that is a rational choice by a rational economic actor in the marketplace, not their fucking entitlement. If a partner calls me up on Tuesday and tries to make me work Christmas, I'll quit and get a different job; I won't cry that I'm being discriminated against.

Schoenfeld would have had a much better case if he was employed at Dewey. Oh well....

There are Sunday sabbath associates (not jewish) who don't work on Sunday at my firm. Some make up for it the rest of the week, some don't. Those that don't often don't get work and leave eventually. Those that do have no problems.

You guys are completely insane. In what other profession is being available every single day at every single hour a requirement of the job? Since when is it okay for an employer to mandate that someone not keep their religious observances? Or are only people of certain religious affiliations allowed to work at law firms? And how is that not discrimination?

I do the whole don't work on friday evening- saturday; but I come in saturday night and sunday to make up for it. I really don't think it's an extreme burden on my firm; because i always volunteer to work whenever i can. I'll be here on christmas, new years, 4th of july, and any sunday/saturday night without as much as a whimper.

I'm not saying ortho jews shouldn't appreciate the allowance to be out of commission every week; i just think we aren't taking advantage if we compensate accordingly.

What is the name of the firm that gives unlimited Jewish holidays? At my firm I have 2 'free' days and the rest are out of leave.

There are plenty of variants of Christianity that forbid Sunday work. Most adherents to those religions are inbred dipshits, so it rarely causes an issue.

This looks much worse for A&O than Charney's complaint did for S&C.

Lat - can you do a thread on 7.48's post comparing firms? This is a big issue for some people!

7:18 - Very well said. Don't call yourself "just" a paralegal, you are obvsiouly much more thoughtful than some of the fucking morons on this board, like 6:38, 7:00 and 7:24.

7:00 - since you are a jew yourself, you must already be aware that we don't all have horns, right?

7:24 - if you were a religious Christian, and you told your firm you had to be in church every Sunday morning, and your firm told you that you'd have to work, you would have a claim too.

These are LEGITIMATELY HELD, REAL RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, people. Beliefs that were held long before anyone was trying to game a system in BigLaw.

7:24, the difference is that orthodox Jews are prohibited by the Torah from working on the Sabbath and certain holidays. Keeping the Sabbath is a "choice" to a religious Jew as much as paying taxes or not stealing is a choice for all people. If the partner I work for told me that I had to cancel my vacation plans (for non-religious purposes) that I had cleared with him 6 months ago, I can make the rational economic decision to go on the vacation and say screw him, or cancel the vacation and be the loyal associate. But if he tells me to work on the Sabbath, I have no rational "choice" but to refrain from working.

Oops, meant to direct the first comment at 6:38, not 7:00.

Upon information and belief, the highest biller at Cravath is an orthodox Jew

Shomer-FUCKING-Shabbos-gate

7:59 - you're missing the point that you're trying to rebut. 7:24 said that religion is a choice, and it is.

Bad move by A&O angering the Jews, since the Jews control all the banks, the media and the government. Next thing you know A&O will fire a Free Mason.

8:05 - If your boss told you to shred documents that were explicitly requested by an opposing party during discovery, do you have a choice in the matter? On the one hand is the continuation of your employment and on the other is your legal ethics. Violating one's religious ethics (breaking the Sabbath) is a choice as much as violating one's legal ethics is a choice.

For all those that think there's a significant number of sabbath-observant jews out there "slacking off" in large law firms, look around a bit.

Notice there are a pretty high proportion of sabbath-observers in big law in places like NYC. Do you really think it's that difficult to tell that someone is an observant jew after 2-3 rounds of interviews and job applications and questionnaires? (If their names aren't a dead giveaway, then check their education on their resumes) But there's a damn good reason why law firms have little or no qualms about hiring them - because they tend to work hard and meet or exceed firm expectations. Maybe it has to do with their upringing, maybe their religious indoctrination, maybe their talmud studies, hell - maybe it's their fear of god. Bottom line is - you generally don't see them slacking off. Look how many of them are making partner in large firms.

And I've seen sabbath-observers bill 2500, 3000 and even 3500 hours. Yes, that's possible, and it doesn't take a 7-day week to pull it off.

I second Allen & Oy-vey-ry. Simple yet refined.

highest biller at Wachtell

moe people missign the point:

not about wheter its a piad holiday

not about whether he must take laeve for it.

it about him wanting to use his leave and not being allowed...you cant just use leave whenever you want..has to be approved.

its not being approved because they need him during certain times.

7:13. Yes, being expected to work 7 days a week is insane. So are the salaries paid to biglaw associates. We choose to work at biglaw because we want the paycheck and are willing to work 7 days a week to get it. If you aren't willing to work that much, you work somewhere else. Then you can take the Sabbath off, whatever day your chosen religion celebrates it. This loser needs to get a job outside of biglaw.

oops. i meant to type 7:33.

Th Managing Partner at Proskauer is an orthodox jew, somehow I dont think this would be a problem there. This is a British firm that is growing in NY and obviously is not aware of the fact that there are orthodox jews all over the New York big firms and thats the way it works here

oh god, here comes the jewish supremacist crowd.

Well, if anyone thought that anti semitism wasnt a problem anymore, at least this blog has proven its as strong as ever. Congrats everyone

8:34, yes but the offending partner at A&O had just come over from Mayer Brown. Thus, his attitude couldn't have been just an A&O culture-instilled thing.

But if Shrank hadn't been indoctrinated with the European mentality, he would have dealt with the issue appropriately

Exactly 8:43, but this is NY, its a Highly populated Jewish city, and just because you dont know any better doesnt mean you can do what A&O did

Well, if anyone thought that anti semitism wasnt a problem anymore, at least this blog has proven its as strong as ever. Congrats everyone

I don't think it's anti-semitism. It's more these commenters are jealous of their jewish colleagues who duck out early on fridays.

If they would bother comparing their hours, they'd realize everyone's on the same page anyway, since the sabbath-keepers work late on thursdays and often on saturday nights and sundays.

"Show me the Shabbas"
"Payas Discrimination?"
"I Don't Roll on Shabbas"

Actually, it raises a pretty basic question about 1981. Do employers need to prove that a religious practice actually interferes with the work performance?If the cases comes down to Employer saying "he didn't get the job done" and employee saying "yes I did" who is to decide that? I guess you could bring in people to testify about the needs of Allen & Overy partners... seems strange.

I say the case should go forward. If discovery unearths statements where the boss says something anti-Semetic about the plaintiff, that's pretty cut and dry. But if it only shows him fretting that the no-saturday policy is interfering with his work, do we really want juries to decide whether or not this was a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification." I'm not so sure . . .

8:29(1): Kind of difficult to get your point, since you are incoherent.

8:38: Who would be so naive to think anti-semitism isn't a problem anymore?!

Well, if anyone thought that anti semitism wasnt a problem anymore, at least this blog has proven its as strong as ever. Congrats everyone

I don't think it's anti-semitism. It's more these commenters are jealous of their jewish colleagues who duck out early on fridays.

If they would bother comparing their hours, they'd realize everyone's on the same page anyway, since the sabbath-keepers work late on thursdays and often on saturday nights and sundays.

7:59: Religion is a choice. Holding whacked out views requiring you to take Saturday off is a result of choice, pure and simple.

I hope that people do not mistake comments on this board a pure antisemitism. I say this as a sabbath observant jew. To be clear, there is clearly resentment about observant jews being unavailable on sabbath and holidays. However, I am sure some of these comments are made by jews too. There has not been a generic backlash against all Jews, just observant Jews.

On that topic, I don't think that the hours that observant jews work which are cited on this board is the case of elitism. It is simply a response to claims that observant jews are lazy and shirk work by taking off every week for 24 hours. The fact is that many orthodox jews work very hard and will put in hours commensurate with non-observant jews and non-jews alike.

A and O would have been best served to freeze to act like most other firms. That is, they should have frozen out an underperforming associate. The issue at hand is was he underperforming generally and this was an exception or was this indicative of his entire work product.

To me, the question has to do with whether a Jew is a sincere observant Orthodox Jew, or a left-wing Jew who uses religion as an excuse to get the extra day of. If someone wears the yarmulke, eats kosher and claims to follow the Sabbath, it's usually fairly safe to assume that he is in fact an observant Orthodox Jew, and I have no problem with him taking time of for religious observance (assuming, of course, that their overall work product makes up for the time off that they are taking -- which is usually the case, as others have mentioned on this thread). But if someone never appears to care about religion or to do anything differently from left-wing Jews, except for not working on Friday night/Saturday, then that would look suspicious.

Note that I am not personally aware of any non-observant Jew who masquerades as Orthodox to shirk work, so this may not happen often for all I know, but this is something to keep in mind.

If nothing else, the fact that this guy went to Touro College should have been a clue as to the degree of his religious observance.

I'm a Jew and I see no antisemitism in this blog. Some of us are simply illustrating how extremist, literalist interpretations of any religious doctrine can result in unfortunate situations. This holds true whether we're discussing Christian extremists, Muslim extremists, or Jewish extremists. Just another example of religion gone wild.

How many holidays can there be in one month?

7:59 - your ignorance is so obvious from your post that I wouldn't even bother to argue with you if I didn't think it was worth it for you to learn.

However, because you seem to harbor dislike for your jewish colleagues out of jealousy (which in my view, is a form of anti-semistism - it doesn't have to be spray painting swastikas on synogagues!), I would encourage you to read up on what it means to be an observant Jew rather than jumping to stupid conclusions on a message board, which conclusions are based on the narrow observation of the people who wear the funny hats on their heads leaving the office early on a Friday.

I meant 8:49.

How many holidays were there this past september?

For most even mildly observant jews (think easter & christmas catholics), there are 3 days--the most important holidays of the year--2 days of Rosh Hashannah and 1 of Yom Kippur.

Take a step up from that to even mildly orthodox, and there's another important holiday that takes another 2 days--Sukkot.

Agreed - the highest biller in the M&A group at two shops I've been at in NY - Sidley and Gibson Dunn - are orthodox Jews. Who cares?

If A&O really did this - and this is at the complaint stage people - they are in deep doo-doo.

I think what sucks is that even a "truly" observant Catholic could never get away with such a thing on account of their faith or belief, or whatever really really real religion motivates any devout person.

Are Sundays so much to ask for?

Sounds like the better question here is why to sabbath-observant jews work so damn hard?

Isn't it strange that they're leading in billables at more than a few large firms, chairing a couple of top firms, making partner everywhere. Overachievers?

A truly religious catholic could get away with this. You have to be consistent and draw your religious lines firmly and clearly at the outset. If you deviate at all, then you're betraying your degree of observance. Most people aren't religious enough to stand up and be clear about it. those that are generally do.

9:01: You are correct that there is no anti-semitism on this thread; this is just classic liberal hate for anything religious. The commenters who deride Orthodox Jews are the same liberals who mock Christians day after day on this site.

For the record, who exactly are the "Christian extremists" or the "Jewish extremists"? Are these including everyone who disagrees with abortion, homosexuality and evolution, or anyone who follows the Sabbath and eats kosher? Because if you really want to use a derogatory label to describe anyone who takes their religion seriously, you might want to use a different word from the one that you use for "Muslim extremists" who, you know, *kill* people.

I thought of Allen & Oy-vey-ry, too, but "Matzoh Balls: The Circumcised Career" cracks me up.

Or maybe . . .
Shofar, So Long: Hath Not A Jew Severance?

or:
If You Prick Him, Does He Not Sue?

I may be wrong on this, but a truly observant Catholic (and I remove the quotes from "truly" intentionally) does not have to adhere to equivalent religious concepts of not being allowed to turn on lights, get in a car, use any form of electricity, etc. on their Sabbath.

If a truly observant Catholic told their employer that he or she absolutely needed to be in church every Sunday morning, he or she would have the same claim if forced to work by the employer.

Think before you speak.

Fed Soc, maybe "Christian extremists" refers to people who bomb abortion clinics and, you know, *kill* people?

unamed NYC Firm = Cock & Balls LLP

8:49's post isnt anti-semetic? Referring to observant jews as "holding whacked out views" is disrespectful and flat out anti-semetic. Between the anti-jew comments here and the anti-women comments on the earlier post about the paid caregiver leave, the posters on ABL have sunk to a new low today by blatantly promoting a view that the only people deserving of big law are non-jewish males.

9:20: Maybe so, which is why I asked. I don't disagree that the 5 or so Christians who bombed abortion clinics in the history of America are extremists, but my guess is that 9:01 believes that Christian extremists include far more than these 5 or so people.

i wonder what the law is on this. surely there has been a case on this issue re: orthodox observances.

9:24, I find 8:49's comment as repulsive as any comment on this thread, but is it really anti-semitic? My guess is that the guy would also describe any devout Catholic, practicing Mormon or fundamentalist protestant as "holding whacked out views" and wouldn't have much of a problem with atheist Jews. If I am correct as to these assumptions, would you still say that 8:49 is anti-semitic?

Fed Soc, i see your point, but disparaging someone's religious beliefs shows intolerance. And where, as here, its an intolerance for orthodox religious beliefs, its anti-semetic. 8:49 may hate all religions equally as you suggest (which i doubt) but still doesnt change the fact that in this particular instance, his view-directed at orthrodox views- is anti-semetic.

Late August was a bad time for this guy to start, considering that there were 6 days of Jewish holidays that fell on weekdays this past fall, all of which an observant Orthodox Jew would observe and need to be absent from work. Since the Jewish calendar is lunar, most of the holidays fall on weekdays every few years. This year:

Rosh Hashana: Sept 13-14 (Thurs/Fri)
Yom Kippur: Sept 22 (Sat)
Succot: Sept 27-28 (Thurs/Fri)
Shemini Atzeret/Simchat Torah: Oct 4-5 (Thurs/Fri)

Forget religious tolerance. Schoenfeld worked at Fried Frank, Shulte Roth and Andrews Kurth. He was never fired for sub par work. No one ever complained about his work being deficient. When he complains about getting emails on Sabbath requiring an immediate answer and he complains about it, all of a sudden he does lousy work?

Let's face the facts, if you go to any law firm in NYC there will be plenty of orthodox jewish attorney's working there. They all take off sabbath and jewish holidays. Yet they always manage to keep their jobs. The only firm that has issue is a British law firm trying to create a presence in NY.

BIG mistake for A&O to get a name for being intolerant to orthodox jews.

7:59...so your point is that these people do not have a choice because the Torah says so? What if one interprets the Bible as saying that homosexuals are damned (the whole "Soddom and Gommorah" nonsense)? If such a person became a partner, would that mean they would have legitimate grounds for refusing to work with a gay associate?

I know it is a bit of a drastic comparison, but my point is that choosing to follow your religious beliefs, however sincere they may be, is in fact a choice.

for those people who think orthodox jews are shirking work on saturdays, it's not as if they are getting hammered and watching college football. they are going to temple and generally doing religious stuff all day. it's not a walk in the park: as a non-observant jew, i would much rather spend a day at the office than in temple. as long as the observant person (regardless of religion) uses the rest of their week to get their work done, it shouldn't matter that they are out for certain days.

and if the firm was open on christmas, i'm sure the orthodox would be there billing.

9:37 = myor lansky/hymen roth. ha.

Not to defend 8:49, but is he (or she) saying Jews are "whacked out" or merely that the practice of not working on Saturday is "whacked out"? Maybe he just thinks anyone, Jewish or otherwise, who refuses to work on a given day is "whacked out". Anti-semitic? Let's not throw allegations like that around like it's nothing.

I agree with 9:35. An equal opportunity biggot is still a biggot. Some comments here clearly exhibit not only a lack of respect, but actual disdain and disapproval, of an orthodox jew practising in biglaw (i.e. calling them "lazy" or saying they should earn less because they only work 6/7 days a week). To me, that is clear anti-semetism. The fact that these same posters may hate other religions too doesnt change this.

I agree with Fed Soc. 8:49 is merely voicing his/her view that religion is a choice that people make. It's dangerous and incendiary to assume that someone dislikes Jews when an ordinary reading of the comment reveals a disdain for religion in general; not any specific dislike for Jews.

I have no religious beliefs, that is to say that I don't have a dog in this race.

This all sounds rather fishy, and I cannot believe they couldn't find a way to work around this and respect this guys beliefs. There are PLENTY of orthodox jews at my firm, and I have NEVER seen it be a problem.

I am not sure how this firm being a British firm is all that relevant to the discussion, as the guy he was work with had not been at the firm all that long.

9:35 = 9:46. They both don't like 8:49 and can't spell "anti-semitic".

I am 9:46, but only spelled anti-semtic wrong becase i was referring to and looking at the 9:35 post which spelled it wrong. but nice attempt to be all CSI-ATL.

and yes, i know i spelled it wrong again...

Question for the Jews: Do Orthodox Jews who follow the Sabbath also wear the hat and do the other things? Because I very rarely see a Jew wearing the hat at my firm, which makes me think there are very few Orthodox Jews.

If a Jew who isn't really Orthodox asks to take the day of for religious reasons should he still be able to?

9:43...

That's an interesting viewpoint, but let's assume instead that you are a married man or woman with 3 kids, who you don't see all week due to your job as an associate on a high-stress deal. Let's also assume that you are working around-the-clock on the weekend while your orthodox colleague (same family situation) is able to spend 24 hours with his family, irregardless of the fact that they are worshipping together rather than watching football.

Are you still sure he isn't benefitting, particularly if you get absolutely no time off with your family over the weekend because you are doing the job of 2 people so that he can be observant?

Seems to me like you would think you were getting fucked...

9:39: I think your comparison is unfair. The Bible explicitly says not to work on the Sabbath but doesn't explicitly say anything about not working with homosexuals.

To be sure, many Biblical sins are listed with punishments but those punishments can only be enforced by God or by courts with certain procedural safeguards and not by individuals through stigma.

If a religious person won't work with sinners then he/she would have a tough time working alone, let alone with others...

Does anyone know/worked with the plaintiff at FF/SR?

9:58:

A little research would reveal that "the hat" you are referring to is called a yarmulke (pronounced yah-mick-uh). Calling it "the hat" is a smidgen insulting.

I think 9:58 might be thinking about the brimmed hats worn by some Hasidic Jews.

9:49,

the orthodox jew is doing the work of 2 people because his wife is at home raising their many children. orthodox breed a LOT and most of the women don't work once they start having children. and it's not like observing sabbath is optional; it is one of the ten commandments: "remember the sabbath and keep it holy."

it would be one thing if the orthodox didn't make it up during the other days they are at work, but as many commenters on this board have pointed out, they do.

personally, i do not believe in organized religion. but i don't sweat people who have sincerely held religious beliefs; that is their prerogative. i have worked with plenty of orthodox jews and they have always pulled their own weight and then some.

if you think you are getting fucked, go become religious and see how you enjoy it.

Some of the idiotic comments being made here remind me why things like the Holocaust happen. Ignorance, pure and simple. Has no one taken employment law here? You think reasonable accommodation doesn't apply to law firms? Get over yourselves. Just another example of BigLaw pretending it's more important than god. Literally!

many orthodox wear yarmulke at work, but others do not, presumably so they are not immediately labeled as "dirty jews" by people such as the many insensitive commenters on this board.

A lot of guys in my high school were Jewish, they missed Friday night parties way down yonder on the Chatahoochee all the time, it was no big deal.

There has been nothing anti-Semitic about ANY of this conversation. It's highly legitimate to ask just why wearing the little hat gets you a get-out-of-work early card on Friday.

My religion is college football; can I get Saturdays and all bowl games off?

THANKS LAT FOR BRINGING ALL OF THE ANTI-SEMITES OUT OF THE WOODWORK. IT IS MUCH APPRECIATED!

We're getting closer here...

At first, anyone who disagreed with this Plaintiff was alled anti-semitic.

Then, 8:47 said that its not anti-semitism as much as it is jealousy over a particular group having an excuse on Friday nights....which is very close to the truth I think.

I would take it slightly further and say its not jealousy exactly. Its more that many of us non-observant types are questioning why our free time is less respected because it doesn't follow under the precious label of religion.

When I want to spend quality time with my family or friends instead of work on a Saturday, that's not respected as an excuse (at least not if the work is "really important"). But when someone says its religious, a magic and untouchable line is drawn that a firm dare not cross, no matter how important the work is. Only maternity leave and family deaths are given similar respect.

That isn't the fault of any one firm or any one religion. It's the fault of a country that decided that church/synagogue/temple/etc is more important and special than all other activities, no matter how meaningful.

The question seems to be:

Is 24/7 availability a condition of Biglaw associate employment?

If yes, then his religious choice entitles him to 6/7ths of my salary. There are many Sundays where I would rather be in Church than the office, but this appears to me to be one of the conditions of my very lucrative employment.

If no, and it's just about getting the job done and the hours billed, then A&O rightly loses. The man has a sincere religious belief that he rightly wishes to observe.

My guts tell me A&O should lose here, but we all chose to do this job. I could put in 37.5 hours a week for the gov't, collect my 55k, and live in the suburbs. Instead I'm at work in a godless officetower until 2am every day making $200k. Seems it's the employer's right to demand this for the wage they pay me

If the allegations in the complaint are true (i.e. his performance and hours were good), then this case is very strong. One thing is suspicious though, I dont get the references to the undisclosed time at the (unamed) NYC firm. The only thing i came up with is that A&O may have used that as a reason for the termination and he wanted to premptively refute that.

the anti-semitism here is disgusting.

not as disgusting as going to a non-top 8 school, but close. very close.

9:46/Fed Soc:

Just to clear one thing up- ridiculing jewish religious practices (which I shamefully admit to having engaged in now and then) isn't anti-semitic. It's just ignorant and bigoted behaviour.

Anti-semitism is much worse. It's the deep hatred of all jews for being jews. Doesn't matter how religious you are or not, it's the crazy muslims and rednecks who think we aren't human because of our ancestry.

Insider Info - Guy was an underperforming Jackass

Why will you guys bill hours for faceless corporations but not fight in the Israeli army?

10:20 - totally agree with you. Good example from my firm: we had a senior associate who had been teaching his young son to play tennis practically since the day he was born. Poured his heart & soul into it - not in that overbearing, weird messed-up parent way, but in a good way. But so much so that everyone who worked with him (secretary, associates and yes, the partners) knew when the kid's first junior tennis tournament was going to be. You can guess the rest of the story - the guy had to miss his son's first match because of some weekend drafting session.

Now, I know the angry trolls on this board will criticize this one way or another, but to me, if that guy wants to see the kid's match as much as someone else wants to pray or whatever, I don't think its anyone's place to say its less important.

Actually Ashley, it IS someones place to say its less important. Federal law protects religious beliefs and requires employers to be accomodating to those who observe them. There is no legal requirement that employers accomodate sports events. And while do agree that the firm should have tried to accomodate the dad just as a matter of decency, to analogize it to this situation is ridiculous.

10:31, Is the Israeli army starting at $160k with bonuses in the 50k-75k range for class of 06? If so, I'm in.

American Heritage Dictionary - an·ti-Sem·ite (ān'tē-sěm'īt', ān'tī-)
n. One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

10:39 - I believe you will be called an anti-semite within the next 10 minutes.

10:39- you're legally right, but ethically I put them on the same plane

10:43- being a jew and practicing the different forms of our religion are different things

10:39: The salary isn't quite as good, but you do have the added bonus of possibly being captured by Hizbollah, or if you're really lucky, having Palestinian mortars fired at you from a few hundred yards away.

I'm applying to A&O!

I'm pretty sure Wojciechowski is a Jewish name.

The Jew and the Pole

10:24, you are right. He lasted 3 weeks at the "unnamed" firm.

Is this partner related to Gene Wojciechowski, the writer for ESPN.com? That guy sucks.

I have to say I'm torn on this.

As to the issue of fairness, I think some of the people here are making a good point. If I'm making my hours on the other days of the week why shouldn't I be able to say that a certain day is off-limits? As an issue of fundamental fairness I think this critique is a fair one. Is it really more important that you get to go to temple for a day than I get to have a day to plan to spend with my wife every week? I don't think so...

Unfortunately, the post above at 10:39 is right. While I might argue (and many of you would agree) that this system is unfair, the reality is that we (society) have passed laws that do say that it is more important for you to be able to go to temple than it is to be with your family.

Are these laws stupid, yes, but they are the law. So long as he was a diligent worker, making his hours, etc. he should win. And while I think that this result is in some sense unfair (as I can't make the same argument for wanting to be with my family), I can't really hate him for pressing his claim.

Out of curiosity, does anyone really think this makes me (and others here who seem to be of the same opinion) antisemitic?

@1115: your comment is not remotely anti-semitic. our country gives religion favored treatment. whether or not that is wise is another matter.

jewdicial: It's big of you to offer to work on Christmas; I've worked on yom kippor every year since, well, ever.

I don't have a problem with observant jews tending to their religeous mandates; but they can fucking come in on Christmas Eve and Christmans Day.

I used to work for a couple of observant Jews who would disappear for the sabbath and holy days, and that never bothered me but, boy, would they be e-mailing me like maniacs on Sundays, when I would rather just lounge and read the paper. I could have copped a super-Christian personna back at them to get my Sundays off (I would have been lying), but I rather suspect I would have lost that fight because everyone knows devout Christians are weird. (I write that as an atheist.) What I don't like is the one-sidedness of the accommodation described here. It's the old family vs. singles fight. But partners should piss off from the Christians for Sundays, and atheists and agnostics should just get to pick a day for peace and quiet. I believe that fervently. Almost religiously.

Is Shemini Atzeret some thing you guys just made up to get extra days off? That holiday sounds fishy.

Jew-sance Suit.

as a jew, i'm always so frustrated at my fellow jews pulling the anti-semitism card at the drop of a hat ... there are maybe one or two real anti-semitic comments on here, the rest are flame or legitimate questions ... lighten up a little

11:15, i dont think you are anti-semitic and actually its refreshing to finally have someone express thier opinion in a non-derogatory way. However, disagree that the system is unfair. These laws were enacted to protect people who were being discriminated based on thier religion. Without this protection, an employer could decline to hire (or fire) an observant jew solely because he/she was an observant jew. Is that fair?
Besides, your point is only well taken if the observant jews are billing less than you. If they make up for the lost saturday by working later on Thursday or working on saturday nights, and are putting in the same amount of hours as you, then techinically they have the same amount of time with thier wives than you, just on different schedule.

I don't think there's anything wrong with not hiring an observant Jew because he's an observant Jew. Let's say I have a pork plant. I am going to refuse to hire observant Jews because they have problems handling pork.

Let's say i have a BIGLAW firm. I can choose from 100000 drones who will work 24/7, or some smaller number of drones who will work 24/6. Why do I bother picking from the second set? There's just no reason to.

If your position is that there is this thing about you that I have to respect (your religious beliefs), then I should be allowed to make that a part of the decision making process in hiring.

That's discrimination based on religious behavior, not religion. Now if you want to act like a good assimilated Reform Jew cum Protestant and take off a day or two in September, then the law ought to protect you. But if you demand ridiculous things - 8 million BS holidays, kosher food, etc -- then I should be allowed to ding you for being too expensive.

I'm Jewish, in case you were wondering.

I'm guessing most of you don't work in NY or don't have religious Jews in your group? I used to work in a very non-Jewish DC firm and my absence on High Holy Days was a problem. My NY office is empty those days.

My observant coworkers work harder, have been learning law/torah their whole lives and tend to be ahead of the curve, and they cover the nonJews asses on Christmas, Easter, New Years, and all of those holidays opposing counsel tries to screw you out of.

They have a day of rest and recharging and come back to work ready to rock and roll. Whereas I drag my ass in and contemplate taking a nap most days.

There are observant Jews all over the place- Lieberman, Dershowitz, Mukasey- and they've experienced some success.

"Schoenfeld's List" was the clear winner, by the way. Kol hakavod.

10:20 PM - the reason religion is more special than your desire to spend time with your family is the free exercise clause of the Consti-flipping-tution. While it doesn't apply to state actors, it still expresses a national value. there is no free exercise of friendship clause.

If it turned out that this associate ONLY followed shabbat and not any of the other ritual precepts, then I think we'd have a problem.

Anyways, your post does remind me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry gets pissed because he is convinced that his dentist converted to Judaism for the jokes. Then Kramer accuses him of being an "RAGING antidentite" for making dentist jokes (whats the difference btwn a sadist and a dentist? a sadist has better magazines). Anyways, jerry meets a kindred spirit in a woman who is also an anti-dentite, but right after she tells a densist joke, turns out she's racist and anti-semetic too.

I think the people who are saying there is anti-semitism being expressed on this board are referring to a few specific posts, and not all of them. So its fair to say that some people have said things that cross that line and its not just pulling the A-S card out of a hat. At minimum, there are alot of posts which sadly show derision and lack of tolerance for the practices of an observant jew. 11: 28 (the first one) is a good example this.

Never Forget--your Blackberry.

7:18, what's a sweetheart like you doing in a dump like this-- I hope some firm is paying you a lot, you are obviously highly intelligent and thoughtful.

If a lawyer wants to observe Sabbath, he should get to, and nobody should be a dick about it. As long as he gets his work done, I don't give a damn what he does on Saturday. Sure, we are open for business on Saturday; but if you have somewhere you really have to be, then you are simply not there, just like any other day. If the requisite hours are billed, and he is pulling his share of the load in the office, and the clients are not complaining, then everybody should be happy. If any of the above are missing, the lawyer should have a problem. If the fired lawyer says anti-Semitism was the problem, you can sort that out in court; if the firm did everything the right, fair way, it shouldn't have a problem defeating a meritless claim. Such is life.

11:32, I hope you dont make hiring decisions at your firm because it actually is prohibited to not hire someone because they observe the sabbath.

"If it turned out that this associate ONLY followed shabbat and not any of the other ritual precepts, then I think we'd have a problem."

Why? Maybe I subscribe to a version of Judaism where I only obey by the rules that make me lazy (i.e., no working) but not the ones that would suck (no pork chops). Who are you to infringe on my right to believe in such a religion?

11:32

of course you are

This is another TTT grad struggling to find stable work.

10:20: I for one disagree with you. If something is truly sacred to you, whether it is a tennis tournament, a dance performance, a family member's wedding, or a weeky volunteer activity, I think a lot of firms respect those commitments. I recently had something not work-related that was very important to me, and was very pleasantly surprised by my firm's willingness to help me out. But I think it has to be an activity or event you are really willing to stand up for, something about which you feel as strongly as a religious person feels about religious commitments.

I think part of the issue is the general impression of the associate-- if a religious person does good work, is hard-working, and helps others meet their commitments outside of work, I think there is usually no problem. But if someone has the reputation of being a slacker the religious obligations are just another reason for resentment.

The fact that multiple people have implied that observing the sabbath is an issue of laziness is reprehensible.

Dear 9:58. You ask:
"Question for the Jews: Do Orthodox Jews who follow the Sabbath also wear the hat and do the other things? Because I very rarely see a Jew wearing the hat at my firm, which makes me think there are very few Orthodox Jews.

If a Jew who isn't really Orthodox asks to take the day of for religious reasons should he still be able to?"

Should non-Jews be allowed to take off for Christmas or Easter? Yes. Why? Because it's a family holiday. A cultural holiday. Because you have some level of affiliation/tradition/belief.

Not all religious Jews wear yarmulkes, let alone black hats. The only way to really be certain if someone is Jewish is to look above their ears and see if they have little scars where there horns used to be.

That was a joke.

Dear 9:58. You ask:
"Question for the Jews: Do Orthodox Jews who follow the Sabbath also wear the hat and do the other things? Because I very rarely see a Jew wearing the hat at my firm, which makes me think there are very few Orthodox Jews.

If a Jew who isn't really Orthodox asks to take the day of for religious reasons should he still be able to?"

Should non-Jews be allowed to take off for Christmas or Easter? Yes. Why? Because it's a family holiday. A cultural holiday. Because you have some level of affiliation/tradition/belief.

Not all religious Jews wear yarmulkes, let alone black hats. The only way to really be certain if someone is Jewish is to look above their ears and see if they have little scars where their horns used to be.

That was a joke.

Would Mr. Schoenfeld have such a shaky work history had he graduated from a good law school?

Dear 9:58. You ask:
"Question for the Jews: Do Orthodox Jews who follow the Sabbath also wear the hat and do the other things? Because I very rarely see a Jew wearing the hat at my firm, which makes me think there are very few Orthodox Jews.

If a Jew who isn't really Orthodox asks to take the day of for religious reasons should he still be able to?"

Should non-Jews be allowed to take off for Christmas or Easter? Yes. Why? Because it's a family holiday. A cultural holiday. Because you have some level of affiliation/tradition/belief.

Not all religious Jews wear yarmulkes, let alone black hats. The only way to really be certain if someone is Jewish is to look above their ears and see if they have little scars where their horns used to be.

That was a joke.

You should all read Alan Dershowitz's "Chutzpah" which relates his challenges and successes as an observant Jew in the legal world.

Guys in my high school used to miss their daughter's tennis tournaments all the time, it was no big deal.

But seriously, for all you who are able to come up with pathetic instances of a firm crushing the plans of another associate who had no choice but to cancel and go to work, guess what?

The fact that the associate showed up to work demonstrates it wasn't that important to begin with. If my firm told me I HAD to come in on Saturday, I would quit. Would your tennis coach associate do the same?

Of course since I work at a sane NY firm with many observant partners, that would never happen. Bravo, A&O, If the facts in the complaint are true, good luck getting this stench off you.

Even if you are right on the law, you will have demonstrated a total tin ear when it comes to business and recruiting.

Do you people really think this has anything to do with his being Jewish?

He's a BLS grad who has had to go job to job because of the worthlessness of his degree. He didn't last but a month at one firm and but two months at A&O.

11:15 & 11:32- you both have the right of it

Are you kidding me? They're really going to rely on his failure to disclose a previous 32-day employment? Smells like horsepoop.

I have a friend who was interviewing as a lateral and was point-blank asked if she was being fired from her current job. She said no, following her headhunter's instructions. She got the job and has had several successful years with the new firm. Whaddya think of that?

The reason you need to disclose a 32 day employment is probably it's a job you got fired from.

Your potential ER has a right to know about your full work history.

For what it's worth, I (as a hard-core goy) spent my first few years working very closely with an Orthodox senior associate, and she routinely took time to mentor and train me, as well as bust her butt on days other than Shabbos. Yes, she had her quirks, and yes, she left well before sundown on friday, but believe me, the firm's billables weren't suffering because of that.

I would say like many others that as long as you pull your weight over the long term (fiscal year), then hells yeah, do whatever you need to do.

BY THE WAY,

IT IS OFFENSIVE AS HELL FOR LAT TO COMPARE THIS TO CHARNEY. CHARNEY IS A COLUMBIA GRAD WHO WORKED FOR FOUR YEARS AT S&C BEFORE THE EVENTS. NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE.

I'M PUTTING THIS IN CAPS LOCK ON PURPOSE.

* * *

IT IS OFFENSIVE AS HELL FOR LAT TO COMPARE THIS TO CHARNEY. CHARNEY IS A COLUMBIA GRAD WHO WORKED FOR FOUR YEARS AT S&C BEFORE THE EVENTS. NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE.

I'M PUTTING THIS IN CAPS LOCK ON PURPOSE.

My Name is Asher Lazy made beer come out of my nose.

It's true. Orthodox Jews are generally pretty cool, more or less. Honest and decent. They study religion all day so they're more likely to have such qualities.

I call flame on 12:00AM.

What female orthodox attorney lasts long enough to be a "senior associate?"

11:28(3), I think you misunderstand my argument (or possibly just don't agree).

The point isn't only good if the person is working less, the point has merit as long as people are working the same.

Person A:
Does quality work, makes hours, stays late on Thursday, blah blah blah.
Wants Friday sundown till Saturday sundown off every week. Is willing to work on Sunday if work needs to get done.

Person B:
Does quality work, makes hours, stays late on Friday, blah blah blah.
Wants Saturday morning till Sunday morning off every week to be with their family. Is willing to work on Sunday if work needs to get done.

Is it really fair for Person A to get what they want and not Person B? I don't think it is fair, although I recognize that the law disagrees with me on this one.

As to the fellow pointing out how this is a 1st A issue and thus it is more important... Seriously, did you graduate from law school? While our legislatures have decided that this observance of religion is important it in no way flows from the Constitution. I figure you must have gone to YLS where you don't actually have to learn any law.

Just curious as to whether the people on here who complain about "special treatment for orthodox Jews!" also complain about things like maternity leave and paternity leave. After all, it's a choice for a woman attorney to become pregnant, and then she gets 3 months off and gets paid for it! That's the equivalent, by the way, of almost 2 years of of an orthodix Jew's sabbath observances. If a woman attorney has 2 kids and takes maternity leave twice, it's like almost 4 years of sabbath observance. Without any make up time!

My own view, in case you're interested, is that the complainers should grow up. There are all sorts of little inequities in life -- get over it.

As many have pointed out, there are non-Orthodox Jewish slackers at law firms. There are also a few Orthodox slackers. So what? By and large, they make up the time.

My firm has a 2000 billables requirement, and a lot of Orthodox Jews. If I bill 2000 hours and my neighbor bills 2000 hours, I could give a flying f--- that he's not doing it on Saturday and I am. He'll do it on Sunday.

That being said, certain practices (not mine or my neighbor's) are actually 24-7. I don't think it should be considered invidious discrimination if there's a kind of selection process whereby orthodox Jews generally don't go into those practices. Just as it isn't invidious discrimination if people with bad eyesight are steered away from flying airplanes.

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that if (as stated in the Complaint) Schoenfeld was up front about his religious requirements, then he has a darned good case assuming his allegations are true. If he wasn't up front about his religious requirements, then he doesn't have a good case. In my opinion it's as simple as that.

yes there are differences, but its certainly not offensive to compare the two cases, when the comparison is made re: more global similarities (i.e. two biglaw associates suing their law firm for discrimination). Facts are different but the type of case is similar and the main issue--whether the reason for termination was pretextual or not- is the same as well.

12:00, I don't think anyone disagrees with you per se.

People are just pissed that if they are pulling their weight they can't just block out me-time the same way.

12:04 (the first one) is simply ignorant.

When I read 12:00, I thought to myself "I wonder if hard core goy is talking about --------- ---------". There's certainly at least one orthodox Jewish, female senior associate in a top tier firm, or at least there was in 2001.

Who knew Allen & Overy had an office in NYC before this?

12:05, you're right about Schoenfeld's case.

However you're wrong about maternity leave. Propagating the species is a good we all can agree on. Religion is more iffy. Certainly our gov't believes that religion is very important, but I would much rather live in a society that encouraged women to work and have a family (particularly highly educated/intelligent women) over encouraging overt acts of religiosity/superstition.

well said 12:05

12:17 -- I don't think I'm wrong about maternity leave, because I'm fine with it. I just brought it up to illustrate an inequity. I'm single and childless and am at the office for 3 months, while my firm is paying someone else to be at home. But again, it's fine. That's life. Hopefully someday I'll be the beneficiary of a paternity leave policy. But it IS an inequity.

As for what should be encouraged and what shouldn't, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Every employment arrangement is a deal. If part of the orthodox Jew's deal is that he doesn't work Friday nights, that works. If an associate is getting married on August 1st, and his deal is that his honeymoon is going to be August 1-August 20th, that's fine. My personal deal is that I play a team sport and leave early (for Biglaw) sometimes to play in those games with my non-lawyer buddies. Nobody really cares. If I need to come back to the office, I do so.

My point is that it shouldn't be society's business (or your business) to pick and choose between those activities. People should be free to work out there own "deals", and then proceed on that basis. At the end of the day, if everybody bills X hours and practices with the requisite amount of skill on behalf of the Firm's clients, everybody lives happily ever after.

http://www.allenovery.com/AOWEB/PeopleOffices/CVDetails.aspx?contentTypeID=4&itemID=37661&prefLangID=410

12:05--yes, the same ppl bitch about maternity/paternity leave. Check the 2 recent posts on this site that generated heated discussions about that.

The complainers feel that shitting out a kid and killing Jesus are both inadequate excuses for paid leave.

Looks like they have at least one yarmulke.

http://www.allenovery.com/AOWEB/PeopleOffices/CVDetails.aspx?contentTypeID=4&itemID=3033&prefLangID=410

Thanks for the info 12:31, though your knowledge of both biology and theology leaves a bit to be desired.

Hymen Sloth.

How can this Sabbath rule square with the idea that sloth is one of the seven deadly sins? That seems like a contradiction to me.

Hey Rupert, how much you bench, guy? Bet not as mcuh as me.

should Muslim associates get all of Ramadan off? what about a paid hajj to Mecca?

Why would Muslim associates need all of Ramadan off? As far as I know, you just have to fast during daylight hours. There's no prohibition on working.

Maybe you should take some unpaid time off and actually learn about what you're commenting on.

Rupert, I like your thinking. However we have to make discriminatory choices in society.
Religion is dangerous to discriminate on. I think we should draw the line at maternity and call it a day.

The seven deadly sins are a Christian concept.

1:00AM

Maybe he finds it uncomfortable to work on an empty stomach? Have some understanding for the cultural practices of others.

That should have read as follows:

The "Seven Deadly Sins" is a Christian concept.

1:00AM

Maybe he finds it uncomfortable to work on an empty stomach? Have some understanding for the cultural practices of others.

That should have read as follows:

The "Seven Deadly Sins" is a Christian concept.

"However we have to make discriminatory choices in society."

Agreed. That's the flipside of my point above, about inequities.

So, what's the danger about allowing this (pro) religious discrimination? I'm not seeing packs of orthodox Jewish roaming the streets, commiting crimes.

Actually, there's more danger in NOT doing it -- the top old-line firms didn't allow for religious accomodations, and then saw firms like Wachtell, Skadden, Weil Gotshal, etc. cut into their market share.

All of these things we're talking about, Anon. 1:01 ... we're really talking about economic choices made by rational economic actors. Do you think the individual, generally white male, members of the exec. committes of these firms care SO MUCH about diversity such that all of their firms have to have these bogus "diversity committees"? Or don't you think it's a small investment to keep from being on the radar screen of a few idiots at Columbia LS, and to keep the recruitment pipeline coming?

Orthodox Jews, women who might become pregnant, etc., are talent pools, and it doesn't make economic sense to refrain from accomodating them. I think do-gooderism by for-profit entities is lame. That's why I'm glad that it doesn't exist when it comes to big law firms. I am glad that my firm makes accomodations for orthodox Jews, because it makes really good economic sense. It makes my firm a stronger firm, which redounds to my benefit notwithstanding that I eat pork products on a daily basis. It's just occurred to me that the complainers on here are too dumb to see this. F-- them.

I've kind of lost my train of thought. What were we talking about?

1:08 -- I do have understanding for the cultural practices of others. That's why I will make the point to you now that Muslims go to work during Ramadan.

This is also easy.

When I interviewed with Biglaw, I wore my kippah (yarmulke) and made it quite clear on callbacks that I would not be available on Saturday or during Yom Tov (the Sabbath-like major holidays). I also made it quite clear that I would work my butt off to make up hours, produce a high quality product, and show up when no one else would.

I got the sense that a firm or two balked at this, but when I got offers, Shabbos and Yom Tov -- and me making up for it -- were all part of the deal. I'll just walk if that changes.

If a practice were TRULY 24/7, and absolute availability were honestly required, I would not qualify (or apply) for a job in that practice. But a partner who doesn't actually need 24/7 availability but who acts as if he or she does risks the same fate as any other employer who unnecessarily discriminates against any group: senselessly turning away good candidates.

someone said "irregardless" earlier.

irregardless is NOT a word.

I really hope David Lat refers to this at some point as a "comments clusterf**k". I think it's his favorite expression, and mine too.

Lat,

Don't let the bastards at A&O get away with this. You da man!

I am not sure how mean all your firms seem to be, but I have been at a v5 NY firm for a few years now, with excellent annual reviews, and I rarely have a problem getting the weekends that I want for whatever reason.

I also know of colleagues who observe the Jewish Sabbath, the Christian Sabbath (no work on Sunday), or block off time to spend with their kids every weekend.

I think it ultimately depends on whether you are a good associate who generally does excellent work and is reasonably available (i.e., I am quite happy to pull an all-nighter here and there, work till 11pm on many weekdays and even a couple of weekends/holidays). But if I have something personal to do on a weekend, I will tell the partner, and he/she will usually accommodate me.

But let's be honest - how many people are required to work full days on every single weekend such that you have no time to spend with your spouse and kids?

"To me, the question has to do with whether a Jew is a sincere observant Orthodox Jew, or a left-wing Jew who uses religion as an excuse to get the extra day of. If someone wears the yarmulke, eats kosher and claims to follow the Sabbath, it's usually fairly safe to assume that he is in fact an observant Orthodox Jew, and I have no problem with him taking time of for religious observance (assuming, of course, that their overall work product makes up for the time off that they are taking -- which is usually the case, as others have mentioned on this thread). But if someone never appears to care about religion or to do anything differently from left-wing Jews, except for not working on Friday night/Saturday, then that would look suspicious"

For people who are purportedly well educated and products of the top law schools, I am astounded by the level of ignorance exhibited here. There is enough case law out there to educate yourselves on religous liberty... I don't believe there's any on liberty to attend your brat's 1st tennis match.

By the way, Jews are not the only ones who are sabbath observers.

Do people here realize what it means to be shomer shabbos?

I haven't read every post but enough to get the sense a lot of people don't get. We don't slip out friday night to go drinking or hanging out and partying or watching a game saturday. It's serious stuff. I was recently in a location where the closest synagogue was 5 miles away and it was freezing outside. You know what i did? I woke up a little after dawn to walk five miles in the freezing cold to get to synagogue to pray and then three hours later I turned around and walked five miles back.

i think the problem is that most people who say certain things are important to them don't realize just what it means to keep the sabbath for observant jews. it means doing pretty much any and everything, short of sacrificing anyone's life, to observe the laws.

and every one of the dozen or more observant jews i know working at the top firms in my city does not use the observance as an excuse to slack. they make up for the time and they cover others on christmas, new-years etc.

and, none of us would tolerate for those who aren't really observant but try to use it as an excuse to slip out early on friday or take off for a holiday they don't observe.

i'm certain that any observant jew you talked to would feel the same way because we all sacrifice tremendously to be able to balance not just work and life, but work, life and a religion which, in essence, is our life.

all we ask is that those of you who do not understand how someone goes 25 hours straight once every week without driving, turning on lights, or who keeps to a strictly kosher diet, or who won't eat a half dozen times a year, including this past wednesday (yes, yom kippur is only one of many days when we don't eat), just recognize you don't understand it. that would be a nice first step instead of projecting your own degree of commitment to whatever it is you value onto us.

Do you get paid to make that 5 mile walk both ways in the snow?
Oh and I was trying to lose weight so I stopped eating too.
(your medal is waiting for you on the podium)

Employers have the right to fire someone who is unavailable to work a 24 period every week, for religious reasons or otherwise. This is material information that should be disclosed up front, especially when you KNOW it will be a problem. It doesn't matter if you're an observant Jew or merely a soccer mom who has to drive your kid to a soccer game every single Friday night from 6-10pm. If you're unavailable during a key period when the firm needs you, for any reason, they have no obligation to hold on to you.

I recently dealt with an employee who was legitimately ill all the time, and I fired her. No, it's not her fault that she gets sick so frequently, but at some point it interferes drastically with the business. The same goes for this situation -- the partners especially don't want to hire people who can't take a workload off their backs on a crucial period from Friday night to Saturday.

If you don't tell the employer about this before they hire you, then don't go crying when you get fired. This is KEY information to most all employers, and by keeping it hidden, you're being dishonest yourself, even if it would hurt your chances of getting the job.

Just imagine if a hospital was hiring a Jehovah's witness doctor to help with blood transfusions, but the doctor obviously wouldn't do the procedure for religious reasons. If the hospital really needs a doctor who can perform this service, then they absolutely have a legit reason to fire him. Again, if this was disclosed up front, it would certainly hurt your chances of getting the job, but too bad. If religion impairs your ability to perform the job in a manner consistent with the firms needs, you're SOL and need to find a new employer who does not have those same needs.

Claim #1: Discrimination based on the "Jewish" race? That's almost Rule 11 worthy, or in the alternative, absolutely ignorant and embarassing.

Exactly...this is an open and shut case. This guy wasn't fired because he's Jewish--he was fired because he couldn't perform his job duties for 24 hours a week as required. It doesn't matter if this was because he's a Jew or because he was a werewolf between midnight and 6am -- his performance does not satisfy the requirements of the job. Find a new employer that will not be harmed by this and move on.

All very interesting. I work with some observant people and I've found them to be among the more family-oriented people I work with. If I said, as a Catholic, that I can't work from 1:00-on on Good Friday (which I have done), I know it wouldn't be a problem. I also know I'd be thought of as superstitious and provincial, but that's another story entirely.

4:36 - wasn't John Goodman's character in "The Big Lebowski" shomer shabbos? And didn't he take time to fake the ransom money drop-off on the Sabbath? Huh? Huh? Explain THAT!

It must be so nice to be a Jew: you always have am excuse not to work on the weekend, to go home early, and to blame the rest of the world for your own faults. dammit....!

kick the guy in the balls. He wanna work in BigLaw but didn't wanna perform..? screw him, there are many good people waiting for a job like that.

@04:36 AM: you're an idiot....I go out every Saturday morning before WORK, whether it's hot or cold and I run 12 miles (that's more than you walk...) But, contrary to you, I normally work on Fridays until 10 or 11pm and cannot hang out with family and friends and drink wine and eat food...being a shomer shabbos is NOT serious stuff. It's just freakish religious extremism like the Christian freaks at Ave Maria law school. Don't forget, you're in a working world, in a capitalist world. So adapt and leave your religious extremism at home. Or go and work in a kibbutz.

THE FRIDAY NIGHT MASSACRE

BLACK SABBATH

Oh my G-d there are a lot of comments!

8:30: I think that anyone who talks about "Christian freaks at Ave Maria Law School" isn't really qualified to contribute to any discussion that relates to religion, be it judaism or otherwise. Have fun hanging out with your atheist friends.

People at kibbutzim generally hate orthodox Jews more than BigLaw assholes

To all you idiots who think this is a BS case, this law firm just won the Anucha Browne-Sanders case. They wouldn't move forward if the facts suggested that Schoenfeld was some lazy bum - clearly, he has a case. A&O is f*cked.

As a title, how about: A DIFFERENT KIND OF PASSOVER or CRUEL PASSOVER or something like that.

5:56 AM -- the point's been made above several times. According to the complaint, he did disclose this KEY information. (And as stated above by orthodox Jews, as a general matter it's addressed up front.) So you really don't have much of a point. So much for reality.

4:36 AM -- I've defended accomodations for religious Jews (see above), as well as other groups -- e.g., women who've just given birth. But the fact that you walked 10 miles or that it's "serious stuff" would only be relevant if we lived in the Jewish equivalent of a Sharia society, and we don't.

Other people have what they consider to be serious stuff, and should be accomodated as well. By and large, people are, which is what makes these discussions so disheartening. In real life, the NY world moves along pretty well as it is, save for an idiot or two -- like the defendant in this case or (if he's lying) the plaintiff in this case.

man, what a hypersensitive topic.

question: can't one plausibly argue that being available 24/7/365 (simply available, not working, obviously, all that time) is part of the gig for 'biglaw'?

here's an analogy: fedex, ups, postal drivers, etc., as part of the job i assume, must be able to carry heavy packages, climb stairs, etc. would it be discriminatory to not hire someone for a driver position if they were in a wheelchair? if someone became disabled on the job, i assume you couldn't fire them per se, but would be required to provide a position that accommodated their disability. what if there was no such position? that seems the analogy with 'biglaw'. there's just one position--assistant crack whore.

anyway, i don't mean to offend by analogising religious beliefs to physical disabilities. the point is just to query whether physically being willing (or able) to do something (like use a telephone on saturday) could plausibly be argued to be a job requirement for a lawyer in 2007.

an exposed nerve throughout this thread is resentment from some people that there is a built-in 'vacation' for observant jews in biglaw. as several others have pointed out, that's a pretty narrow-minded conception of what religious observance is about, and it doesn't really deserve much of a response.

hopefully though, someone will thoughtfully reply to the above comparison, because i'm interested in hearing it.

L2L would work Saturdays for BigLaw.

One thing people seem to be forgetting is that successful orthodox jews tend to be highly efficient. Think about it, in college, they lose 1 day out of 7 and then get hit with holiday after holiday, generally grouped at the very beginning of the year. But you can tell YLS or HLS "oh I didn't get good grades because I don't roll on shabbos." So they compensate by becoming highly efficient and making up time.

And that's why they continue to be made partner (and even managing partner) at top firms as well as clerk for Antonin Scalia, become attorney general of the United States, etc.

Maybe they're leaving early on Friday because they've managed to finish all their work.

Welcome to the US, the country that the state of NY is a part of. Most of the country believes that religion is important and its practice should be respected. This is not a belief held by one or two orthodox jews, but by a majority of the US population (I.e. The people who eleced G.W. Bush - unfortunately).

NYC practices, as a whole, the religion of capitalism. However, that is not the supreme law of the land (though it is practiced and worshiped by many). One's own lack of respect for religious practice is fine. You are entitled to your opinion. However, unfortunately for you, the law of the country you live in disagrees with you.

So you have a choice. Leave the country. Or you can leave your big law job and pursue a line of political work in an effort to change the laws of YOUR country. Maybe you will work your way up to Senator and propagate laws that will limit religious freedom. Unfortunately, you will have a hard time getting it past the elected officials from the majority of the country who hold religion in high regard.

In response to the question of whether you need to be available 24/7 to work at a law firm...

I have never seen a job post to that effect. No one has ever stated explixitly or implicitly. This is not the same as flying a plane, where they would check your vision.

Any large firm that can't deal with the fact that .03% of their attorneys need to fall off the face of the earth for 24 hours a week is so far beyond poorly run its ridiculous. I've worked with at least a half dozen orthodox guys over the years and they were all extraord9inarily efficient and great guys to work with. The borrom line is that if you choose to go this route, you better be efficient and sensitive to the effect this can have on the lives of others. And all of the guys I have worked with have been. But don't get me started about my colleagues who go out boozing 4 or 5 nights a week and are a little "under the weather" whenever I call.

Isn't this issue the whole reason the Israelis nearly got their clocks cleaned by the Gippos in 1973?

I saw this all on an episode of "Entourage" where Ari was trying to close a deal on Yom Kippur but couldn't because he couldn't use a phone. He finally did, to his wife's dismay, but by then the money was gone. But in the end, God still found financing for the boys' project. I don't know what the lesson is there.

Every big firm orthodox Jew I know bills as many, if not more hours than pace. And there are LOADS of hot shot partners who are orthodox, including and especially at places like Wachtel.

Also, the days off are not exactly laugh-a-minute -- you can't turn on the lights, the tv, cook, go to a movie, go out to eat.

So all those people on the slacker bandwagon -- enough of the jealousy about not working saturdays and consider converting.

Leave Orthodox Jews Alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yet another example of lawyers having an overly inflated sense of how important they are. Newsflash -- law is not like medicine. It's not 24/7. There are no true emergencies.

When that little red light starts flashing on your Blackberry at 10pm, it's probably because the partner needs you to fix a typo or something. Come talk to me when it means that someone's life is on the line and you need to go saw open their head.

No task in the law is too important that it can't wait at least 24 hours.

9:25 - no question about the ability and dedication of observant jews to do the work.

but how many deals are set to sign/close on a friday morning (if you're transactional) or the equivalent in litigation or whatever, but only heat up friday afternoon, and then are crazy-ass busy into friday night/saturday morning? from my experience, this happens all the freaking time. it's annoying as hell.

the 24/7/365 question is really how a firm as a whole is required to staff such transactions. my firm's corporate department could probably always get a body if needed (we're only about 20 in our office), but it would definitely strain things if it was _always_ the case that, if you're working with X observant person, then you know you'll need to bring someone else on board during such times. i'm not saying it's unreasonable to have to do this, either. but it is a strain, and could breed resentment.

the law of the land may well require employers hire/not fire a person who is not available come saturday, but the practice of the law could care less.

9:41 -- you obviously haven't worked on any cases with significant press coverage, then.

And anyways, it matters not how fast associates think things need to be done. If the partner believes it needs to be done in 24 hours, it does.

I'm a jew (not orthodox) and this whole lawsuit is bogus. As many people have said, being orthodox is generally well tolerated in BigLaw. Sure, it's annoying when you are working with someone on something important and then they slip out at 2PM on Friday and can't be heard from until Saturday night, but you get over it. That's why it's called "BigLaw"--because there are tons of attorneys to help out.

As for this crazy lawsuit, this guy has lost his mind. No one seems to have mentioned that this guy switches jobs every year. Whether that's because he was fired or chose to leave voluntarily, obviously this guy has issues, and I'm sure those issues are reflected in his work product.

If he should sue anyone, it should be the career counselor who told him not to put the 1 month job on his resume. You can't lie on a resume. That's reason enough for A&O to have fired him, performance aside. But clearly he is trying to hide performance issues.

Overall, as a jew, I have no problem with the orthodox doing their thing, as long as they don't try to use it as a sword, which is what this guy is doing. Just because you suck at what you do, you can't blame it on religious discrimination. Grow up and get your act together.

How is "Brokeback Lawfirm" clever or funny?

Hey "so so" AKA Confucius:

It matters not what a partner demands, only what the associate is willing to give up.

I can't believe how many people here think you need to be available 24/7 and bill 2500 hours a year. I got over that as a third year. You people need some perspective.

not being able to perform a specific job function at all times because of a handicap and not performing a job at certain times because of a religious practice are very big differences, 9:13. Not a very good analogy, because the Jews can still perform their job, unlike the "handicapped worker" you propose in your analogy.

The distinction b/t race and religious discrimination is interesting. It seems that the complaint only establishes religious discrimination because it is based on mutable characteristics ... choosing to follow religious law. Racial discrimination would be firing someone simply because of his Jewish ancestry (an immutable characteristic). If it was race discrimination then he could be Catholic or Muslim and would still be discriminated against.

I would assume that A&O would have run a conflicts check. And I would assume that he did some legal work during the couple weeks he was at undisclosed firm. If he gave incomplete info for his conflicts check, isn't that reason enough to fire him?

When a partner shits on 9:44's head, I bet he says, "Thanks for the hat."

9:52 -- I like Yoda better.

I never said you need to be available 24/7. But in those instances when something needs to be done on very short notice (i.e. 24 hours), its not an invitation to hold oral arguments with the partner.

Comments:

1) Brilliant Shabbos note Lat.

2) This 24/7 as a requirement for biglaw employment is rediculous, as is comparing this to the need to be able to see as a pilot, lift heavy loads for Fed-Ex, etc.

A) There are many partners in biglaw who are sabbath observant. They have large books of business "despite" working 6/7 days. The client has no legal requirement to stay with a sabbath obsevant partner or the firm, but many do. Please do not interpret this as a "sabbath observant jews are awesome statement." This is simply good, hard evidence that successful lawyers in biglaw DO NOT NEED to work 24/7 or be available 24/7 to perform your job effectively. These partnerships are not pity handouts. If you think so, you need to look into the profitability of many orthodox jewish partners at big law firms around NYC.

b) I am sure that there are associates who are fired who are available 24/7, but do not work 24/7. They lose their jobs because their work product is deficient and/or they do not work sufficient hours despite being "available" 24/7.

c) This year's bonus situation has shed tremendous light on the fact that "billable hours" are the standard that sets the standard as to whether a biglaw lawyer is meeting and/or exceeding expectations. I believe that is why many posts here reference billables as a rationale for why not being available 24/7 is not a big deal, namely, because their ultimate product (their billable hours) meets and/or exceeds requirements for the job's expectations.

d) Assuming that the plaintiff stated that he was sabbath observant, and then the firm hired him knowing that he would not be available, wouldn't this be CLEAR proof that 24/7 availability is NOT a requirement for the position.

If a guy applies for a pilot's license, walks into the interview with a seeing-eye-dog and says, "hi, I am blind," the guy will not get the job. The same would occur with a person who applies for a job that entails lifting heavy loads and says, "hi, I have brittle bones and can't lift anything." This guy said I can't work on Saturday. If the job REQUIRED working on Saturday they never would have hired him.

This leads me back to the significant (not overwhelming, but certainly reasonable presence) of orthodox jews who are sabbath observant in biglaw. If working 24/7 was NECESSARY then not a single observant jew could or would be hired in biglaw. The fact that they are obviates the fact that it is not NECESSARY, but rather, 24/7 availability is asked and often helpful.

For example, having two good hands is VERY helpful when playing a sport, but it is not NECESSARY to suceed and play at a sport's highest level. Jim Abbot, among other played in the major leagues (baseball) and had to overcome their physical short-comings. PLEASE do not take this as a direct analogy, i.e. = orthodoxy = missing an arm (I am sabbath obsevant myself). The point illustrates the fact that what might perceived as a lack (in one hand an arm, on the other hand, availability) can be a hinderence to working/playing at the highest level. However, it is a challenge that can be overcome. I think that missing an arm is much harder, personally.

I think that this argument should be an intelligent response to those who state that you need to be available 24/7 and that is a requirement of the job. IT IS NOT.

The employment charts do not place orthodox Jews names in italics in the org chart like they do part time lawyers. They are not labeled staff attorneys. They are hired and employed on the same level as all other lawyers. If they are deficient in hours and/or quality of their work product then they deserve to be fired.

9:52 - yes, you're right of course that the analogy is strained.

but the physical ability to perform the job and the willingness to do it, at least in this case, seem pretty close to me. one person cannot do it because it's physically impossible. the other cannot do it because it violates his/her religious code (and so is a "practical" impossible). to split hairs about the modal differences of the "possibility" here is just to sidestep things.

i wanted to make a complex issue less so by talking in terms of a job that cannot be done (in practice, not theory) by either a disabled person or an observant jew, if the job requires things that the physical disability prevents one from doing, or the religious belief prevents one from doing.

i'm not sure i can be any more plain about it. but if you simply reject the comparison because it's strained, well, that's that.

its so funny to read this. i cant think of a single Big Law firm that doesnt have Orthodox jewish partners- i personally know Orthodox partners at Wachtell, Sullivan, Skadden, Davis, Paul Weiss, Sidley, Willkie, Proskauer, Weil, Schulte, Milbank...

they got to be partner because accomodations were made. i dont necessarily know if i think its an entitlement or a privelege- but if its a privelege, its one that Jews (orthodox and not) will take note of during recruiting.

besta luck allen and overy!

some people suck at their job. there is a very good chance this guy was one of them. i see a lot of people assuming A&O was in the wrong for whatever reason, but I'd say the chances are just as good that this guy was terrible.

failing to disclose your employment history is also a bad factor. it sounds very curious and I wonder if New York Firm will have some interesting comments about this guy.

Lesson learned - next time choose a firm that's a little more "jewy" than Allen & Overy.

Don't forget - the complaint is RACE discrimination and, before anyone asks, the reason a Jew would have a viable race discrimination claim is that, at the time section 1981 was enacted, Jews were considered a "race." Religious diecrimination is a different matter entirely. In general, the protections afforded religious beliefs are nowhere near as strong as the protections available to racial groups. While a covered employer cannot refuse to hire based on religious beliefs, typically, a minimal accommodation suffices.

Y'all are crazy.

I think that there needs to be a distinction between one man's lawsuit and the presence of a group of people with a set of religious beliefs.

Sabbath obsevant Jews have risen through the ranks of law firms all over the US because they are profitable. Profitability is the litmus test of an associate's and a partner's value to the firm, as a whole. An underperforming partner will lose his book and will lose his position as a partner. An underperforming associate will not get work from other associates or partners. This will creat a situation where the associate is not profitable (the overhead for the associate will exceed his/her revenues generated). He will lose his job.

This lawsuit and this single obsevant Jew should not be the poster boy for all Sabbath obsevant Jews. They are profitable and keep their jobs because of it. Clients continue to use firms where these associates work and where the partners know how to work within the constraints that observant associates place on them. Clients also continue to use Sabbath Observant partners who work 6/7 days for them. However, I am sure that they do so because they get a superior product during those 6 days than they get in 7 elsewhere.

but it doesnt look like this guy sucked at his job.
he seems to have entertained positions at mayer brown and this unnamed law firm, and chose to leave them to be at A&O, which recruited him heavily.

HE WAS FIRED FOR BAD WORK. I know for a fact. It wasn't for laziness; let alone for religious reasons. Too bad the facts are not as juicy as they seem from the complaint.

10:03 - nice post.

the availability to work late on fridays/saturdays is not a requirement to be a lawyer in biglaw because observant jews are lawyers in biglaw. qed.

BTW, one of the observant Jewish partners for whom I worked would typically log around 2,800 to 3,000 hours per year (I could see his Carpe Diem entries, and I was nosy.) A chunk of that was business development, of course, but the rest was billable.

Anti-Semetic Solicitors

Why isn't anyone questioning why believing in a religion gives someone a special pass? The real discrimination is against rational-minded people who believe in humanity and not superstition.

Jews to 190!

Because rational minded people decided a long time ago that the freedom to believe whatever you want is a right worth protecting.

Why is it a "free pass?" It is not as if you are asked to come in on Saturday morning and finisht he brief he was working on. Truth be told, if he's as efficient as he should be, the brief would be done by Friday at sundown anyway.

Hi Athiest,

Welcome to America, where you are in the minority. Unfortunately, the laws are based on a specific system of values and beliefs that do not agree with yours. Luckily for you, people with minority view points are not discriminated against and are left to believe in their ideas and views, so long as they do not take certain illegal actions. If you travel south, there is a small island named Cuba. Rumor has it that the leader is getting old and they may need help proping up their government. If I recall correctly, communism is anti-religion. YOU WILL LOVE IT THERE!!!

GO!

Here in America, the system permits people to believe in religion, G-d, humanity and even superstition. You have your rights...and you are lucky because there are a lot of religious wackos who would love to trample on your rights, such as the right to abortion, the right to homosexual relations, etc. You don't want those rights invaded (and, I believe, rightly so), so it would be a bad idea to use a law a shield and a sword (frowned upon by our judicial system.

Cuba - great weather, except the hurricanes can bad - say hi to Michael Moore while you are down there. Which reminds me, why does he live in the US? He should move there too!

"I DIDN'T COME INTO WORK THIS WEEKEND. JEW?"

"My Name is Asher LEAVE"

FIDDLER ON THE PINKSLIP

THE CHOSEN AND THEN UNCHOSEN

BAGELS AND CHANGE THE LOCKS

Truly observant jews don't bother me...the selectively observant ones do. When I was a paralegal there was an associate who used to duck out every Friday evening. He would occasionally dump whatever he was working on on me at 5 pm, never earlier. Kicker for me was that he wasn't kosher - ate pig everyday, didn't wear the yamulke, but observed the sabbath. Hmmm. In contrast there was a Israeli foreign associate who kept kosher, wore the yamulke and worked like a dog all week, no exception. I'm sure he billed way more hours than the ertz jew.

Yeah, 10:52, I'm sure there's a rule that says either you observe each and every religious rule or none.

Jew're out of here!

GOODBYE AND GOOD SHABBOS!

I find it hard to believe that an attorney would angrily yell "F--!" without saying any other words. That sounds more like Tourette's to me.

It is painfully obvious that many of you do not know what you are talking about. There are different levels of observant jews. Let me tell you, I work with very religious jews and they don't wear yamulkes. Want to know why? They are modern orthodox. Not every observant jew you see will have a white beard and be covered in black from head to toe, get with the 21st century. Secondly, I would agree that a jew that eats pig is definitely one that wouldn't/shouldn't be leaving early for shabbos but in other cases it is a matter of judgement and belief. For example, some jews I know may not eat pig or shellfish while still eating food which may have not been prepared in a kosher kitchen and still observe the sabbath. It is truly based on the judgment of the individual and there is no litmus test for observant jew vs. non observant.

NA NA NA NA, NA NA NA NA, HEY HEY HEY, GOOD SHABBOS!

10:56 AM - Whatever. As already noted, the Israeli associate didn't oberve "all the rules" (he worked Friday night/Saturdays). Interesting that the a$$hole associate picked just the rules that allowed him the work less, not he ones that required him to eat crap food. In some (not all) cases the "observant jew" thing is a scam. *shrug* Feeling a little defensive 10:56?

So let me get this straight... because I don't believe in supernatural forces, I must be a communist? Is this the 1950s? And even though I find your arguments laughable, I must correct you on your point that being an atheist means that I believe that religion should be suppressed or that religious beliefs shouldn't be protected. In fact, I think anyone can believe in ghosts or virginal births or whatever nonsense their religion requires as long as those beliefs aren't imposed on me. And by "free pass" I mean that it is an excuse that cannot be challenged unlike anything I may come up with as a non-believer. My only point is that religious practices shouldn't be given special protection, and everyone's values should be treated with respect, even when not connected with an accepted religion.

And I also argue that atheists are more numerous than you suggest, particularly among the highly educated (e.g. scientists, doctors, even lawyers!). It is socially unacceptable in this country to come out of the atheist closet because of very vocal religious groups who are always trying to shove religion into the public sphere.

In your best Wayne's World voice.
Sha (bbat) - right!

11:00 AM wins

Goyim here-

This is silly. I don't think most of the people understand the term anti-semitism. Semites are a particular people, not a particular religion. Being against a religion, thinking its stoopid, or disliking the strange observances is not anti-semitism.

Personally, everytime I see the extremely observant jews with the long curly sideburns, I want to jump on their backs and make them give me a piggy back ride just so I can tug on them to steer. I think they look hilarious and adorable at the same time.

Sure, I may have an extra strength case of the crazy, but that doesn't explain why butter knives are suicidal.

Jews are great! I'm actually biased in favor of Jews. Orthos should swap their doxies for dontisties because then they could make little children not look terrible when they grow up. That's so important. Have you seen the Brittish? Big problem there. A&O just resents the fact that all the orthos in the UK are doxies and not donties, hence their unfortunate situation.

11:07 - hilarious

"This is silly. I don't think most of the people understand the term anti-semitism. Semites are a particular people, not a particular religion. Being against a religion, thinking its stoopid, or disliking the strange observances is not anti-semitism."

You're an idiot. The word "antisemitism" means "discrimination against or prejudice or hostility toward Jews."

Semites are a particular people that include Jews and others, such as Arabs. So yeah, the word "antisemitism" is not exactly right, but it's the word for this behavior.

And, the civil rights laws are pretty clear that you don't have to be against all jews to break the law -- you can break the law by failing to make reasonable accomodations for religious practices.

This whole thing has got me a bit scared. I"m a 2L, going to a big, good NY firm this summer, and I'm sort of that selectively observant jew lots of people are talking about. I keep sabbath 100%, and don't eat non-kosher meat, but I do eat out in restaurants (within limits) and I don't wear a yarmulke. How much surreptitious hating is going to go on?

11:18 - He's half crazy, half brilliant and totally hysterical!

Of course, since I am a doctor, you must know that I am an orthodox Jew (though I am sans-curls - they are a workplace hazard, especially around Semitophile - and I am looking for someone to swap his/her donty for my doxy).

There's a guy at my firm who insists on being home at night to put his kids to sleep. Meanwhile I'm slaving away, single, and without kids. He's such a slacker. The second child was his CHOICE (the first one was an accident, so I don't hold that against him). I'm sick of him playing the kid card. I don't think he even has a good-faith interest in the kids- I'm pretty sure he doesn't really love them or believe in them. He just chooses to go to their soccer games when it's a convenient excuse to not work on the weekend. Not to mention HE TOOK PATERNITY LEAVE!!! Where is my paternity leave??? I'm not even eligible. It's so sexist.

And now they tell me that by law I can't fire someone for having a baby? What are we, pinkos???

I hope they fire him.

This whole thing has got me a bit scared. I"m a 2L, going to a big, good NY firm this summer, and I'm sort of that selectively observant jew lots of people are talking about. I keep sabbath 100%, and don't eat non-kosher meat, but I do eat out in restaurants (within limits) and I don't wear a yarmulke. How much surreptitious hating is going to go on?

and Lat, writing about it tomorrow would be lame... half the people really interested won't be using their computers... 'cuz it's Saturday, get it?

You will be hated because you are a summer associate, not because of your religious practices. Once you start work, that might be a different story.

There is lots of discrimination going on in law firms, but all the related firings are for "performance reasons." I mean, law firms are law firms, you know?

Dear Psychiatrist-

Why are there so few doxies and so many donties in Dixie? If you'd like to make the trade, the market's better there.

Look away, look away, look away, curly locksie-land....

Sounds like being a summer is not that much fun for observant Jews. The number of swanky lunch options is severely limited (if not eliminated entirely), and they can't go to Friday night events or Saturday outings.

I'm curious to hear how the observant Jews on this thread felt about their summers. Was it difficult to meet a lot of people since you had to miss some events?

As an associate, I would only go to kosher restaurants if a religious summer was coming along. I tried not to make a big scene about it, but it'd be pretty rude otherwise.

1. Forcing someone to "choose" between observing their religious practices and having a job in their area of expertise is a Hobson's choice. That being said, if your proffered religious beliefs substantially interfere with your job performance, you either need to choose the religion or the job. That certainly does not seem like the case here or with orthodox Jews in general, they generally bill enough hours.

2. If you're a religious Christian, no one should be able to force you to work on Sundays. This obviously works for any religion's holidays. If you are atheist, congratulations, you get to choose your own holidays.

3. No one should ever be discriminated against for being atheist, the right to choose a religion obviously includes the right to choose no religion.

4. However, atheists who would deny others the right to practice a religion are equivalent to religious fundamentalists who would deny others the right to practice other religions.

5. Shout out to Hassan Askari, anybody messes with Muslims on the subway I will have to regulate.

Semitophile - we discussed this last time we met. Doxies in Dixie would be like Trix cereal for Trixie. It can work, but it must be done in very controlled conditions as the operation is delicate.

Did anybody notice that the post misspells the name of one of the principal characters? The complaint refers to "Wojeiechowski" - but the Allen & Overy webpage - http://www.allenovery.com/AOWEB/PeopleOffices/CVDetails.aspx?contentTypeID=4&itemID=37661&prefLangID=410 - lists his name as "Mark Wojciechowski".

Interesting - and not terribly professional. But I make no comment on the merits of the lawsuit.

Psychiatrist-

Haha~! I've got your hat! Its mine now, mine!

Oh, wow, it feels heavy.

I'm still not giving it back!

Semitophile -

Please give me my hat back now. It is a Borsollino and was expensive. If you do, we can play frisbee with my yarmulke. Those suckers can really fly!!!

"For the record, who exactly are the "Christian extremists" or the "Jewish extremists"? Are these including everyone who disagrees with abortion, homosexuality and evolution, or anyone who follows the Sabbath and eats kosher? Because if you really want to use a derogatory label to describe anyone who takes their religion seriously, you might want to use a different word from the one that you use for "Muslim extremists" who, you know, *kill* people."

Do you honestly think Muslims are the only ones who kill for their religion? Really?

For the record, historically, there were the Crusades and the Inquisition.... Lots o' people killed. But lest you think "Christian extremists" aren't alive and well today, there are of course the wack-jobs who *kill* doctors and clinic workers. As for the "Jewish extremists", doesn't get much press here, but extremist settlers (ones who defy the Israeli governement) who shoot and kill passing Palestinians for sport would probably count.

Pschiatrist-

Look at it go! Frisbee! Yay! I want one with a propeller so it won't feel so heavy.

I had a dream of a mythical ortho that was both a doxie and pedieie, but it was still gruesome because he knew no donties.

My favorites are the ones with the mazels and the tovs and the potato pancakes!

why not a Title XII disparate impact claim:

is being available for that 24-hour period a business necessity without a reasonable alternative...well probably not considering most other firms respect sabbath observance and those who practice it often make up for the day off by working more before and after the sabbath.

i have to leave work when the sun goes down today because a big, invisible man in the sky told me to.

yes, i'm a commie.

Atheist:

1) You are not a Communist because you believed in supernatural forces.
2) I was suggesting that you would enjoy a communist regime because they do not permit for free exercise of religion, which, aside from your protests, your arguments clearly show that you do not support or believe are deserving of protection (which would leave them open to assault).
3) No one is suggesting that you need to believe in anything that other people believe in. You should be free to believe what you want so long as it doesn't harm others.
4) Religion is given protection here in America because it was the basis and foundation of the country (see, Pilgrims leaving England because of religious suppression, Puritans, etc - but disregard their own hypocrisy).
5) See #4 as to why there is AFFIRMATIVE protection of religion in the USA, within limits.
6) Value systems should be respected, regardless of religious affiliation, so long as they do not harm anyone.
7) I am sure that there are A LOT of atheists, some even in the closet. However, either they don't vote or you have not been out of NYC, and are using some sort of heuristic in approximating the number of atheists in the US. You might also believe that Jews make up more than .01% of the US population, with Orthodox Jews making up .001%.
8) Religion is being shoved into the public sphere, and I think this is unfortunate, too. However, I doubt the ramification of being an atheist is nearly that of being gay, and yet many gays come out of the closet every day and are a powerful political lobby. Good for them. You should try following their example…

Really….closet atheists…funny stuff…

"This whole thing has got me a bit scared. I'm a 2L, going to a big, good NY firm this summer, and I'm sort of that selectively observant jew lots of people are talking about. I keep sabbath 100%, and don't eat non-kosher meat, but I do eat out in restaurants (within limits) and I don't wear a yarmulke. How much surreptitious hating is going to go on?"

Generally, there's no hating if you get your work done before you leave or if you make sure it's due on Monday so you can do it yourself on Sunday. Hating will go on though if your sabbath keeping results in some other non-observant summer getting sh!t on on a Friday evening and losing their Saturday.

Wow, Judge Baer is craa-azy. And he pushes people into impossible schedules. He said once that he hasn't yet seen a case that can't be tried within a year of filing.

i'm an orthodox jew and work in biglaw.... you all think you have it bad?? puhlease:

i get in to work at 10am and most days i'm REQUIRED to stay until 6pm!!! when i'm working on a deal, they make us work until 8pm! you all complain about having to work on saturdays and sundays???-- well sometimes i need to come in early on monday (like 8:30am) to finish up some work b/c i chose to not come in on the weekend. let's just put how bad you have it into perspective...

(yes, this was an ill-attempt at a joke. i am not a lawyer though i know many)

Semitophile -

Only Rabbis get frisbees with propellers. I am not a Rabbi, so mine has no propeller.

Have you noticed that latkes and yarmulkes are similar in shape!!! If you are good, I will give you a yarmulke shaped latke later and I can stick a toothpick in it so it looks like a propeller so you can spin it round and round. I will also let you out of your special white jacket so you can eat it with your hands!

What a treat! Mazal Tov!

Good call 12:16. I'm not so worried about the summer, since obviously the amount of real work I do will be pretty negligible. I was thinking more when I actually start working (assuming I don't make a total as$ of myself this summer.)

Do people see someone not wearing a yarmulke, then leaving fridays early and start getting pissed? I'm sure there is no one answer, but does anyone have any personal experience with this type of stuff?

Allen & Oy-vey-ry is it!

I think there's a reason why A&O's defense is that he was fired for performance reasons. If a person is not performing up to par, nobody claims that a firm should retain that person in its employ. Many of the comments on this board are the exact reasons for laws protecting against discrimination. If an orthodox Jew is performing as well or better than others in a 6 day week, and it seems from some of the comments they are, then what is the issue? I doubt any orthodox Jew billing 2500 hours would have a problem firing someone who doesn't make minimums, Jewish or not.

Name:

The Passion of Schoenfeld

The Crusades rocked. Anyone want to start up a Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox clusterf*ck over the schism?

5:56 Your entire post is premised on the idea this isn't disclosed, but in most every case it is either expressly disclosed or the interviewee is wearing a kippah. i have my doubts whether you are right that this needs to be disclosed as it is a religious matter, but it's a moot point because for most people it is disclosed to the firm.

usually if there's a problem it is because those who decide to hire the person realize he's observant but the person ends up working for someone who is just a jerk and intolerant. someone like you?

8:30 wow, you must be that associate down the hall everyone can't stand.

9:11 the point that i walked 10 miles was most definitely not to show i'm special or deserve special accommodations. it was simply to respond to those who made it seem as though we get to say the magic words "sabbath observer" and walk out of the office to do whatever it is we feel like and ignore work for 25 hours as opposed to following certain restrictions which happen to prohibit us from doing work (these rules were around just a few thousand years before BIGLAW firms) but also prohibit may other things we'd like to do such as watch tv, turn on lights, drive a car etc.

if it was a poor anecdote to show that it's not like that then fine. but some are using the anecdote to counter arguments i never used the story to illustrate.

11:36 correct (especially if you're not working in new-york) and yes. i enjoyed my summer immensely but the hardest part was making sure no one else felt guilty when we went out for a meal to some fancy restaurant and everyone else ate and i just drank a glass of water. i couldn't care less because i'm used to it, but it's of course awkward and uncomfortable for some of them.

Mitt Romney dismissed atheists as un-American—“Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom”

I was deciding whether to name my next kid, Mitt, Bat, Ball or Riods. Now that Romney guy ruined the name Mitt...so now my choices are narrowed down a bit.

Mitt Romney will say anything to get elected, just like he used to say anything go close a business deal. He is all hair and teeth and nothing underneath. Get's elected governer and spends his entire term touring the country mocking his own state as out of control and run by liberals.

A guy who can argue for freedom of religion at the same time he states that everyone should have a religion.

He is a perfect hypocrite.

As far as the subject of this original article, if he was pulling his weight, the firm wouldn't care if he took off early every Tuesday to work on this golf swing. Work hard and put in the hours and you could wear a cowboy hat to work and nobody is going to give a shit. If you're at a firm that does, then get out.

A 1:14PM: I'm the partner on the other side of the hall you can't stand. And yes, you're DONE! >-)

Sorry, but I couldn't just watch this (from 11:59/12:00) pass:

As for the "Jewish extremists", doesn't get much press here, but extremist settlers (ones who defy the Israeli governement) who shoot and kill passing Palestinians for sport would probably count.

Uh... I've lived in a settlement with a bunch of the most ardent (nuts) Israeli settlers, and NONE of them does anything even CLOSE to killing passing Palestinians for sport. Sure, some of them are crazy, but they want land, not blood.

Thanks for supporting peace, justice and basic human rights.

I'm thinking a play on the old jewish country western song, "The Second Time Allen & Overy Said 'Shalom,' He Knew They Meant Goodbye."

Without having read all the comments yet, I want to proffer this short answer now since I need to leave the office shortly for the Jewish Sabbath.

The short answer to the question "why is the religion excuse more respected than my excuse [whatever it is, college football, time with family, I like Hooker Friday Nights, etc..]?" is that religion is protected under the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution, i.e., the 14th Amendment.

Also, Jewish associates don't celebrate non-Jewish holidays, such as Christmas, Easter, or even New Year's or Thanksgiving for that matter (there remains some debate whether the latter is really a "religious" holiday), but Firms choose to close in observance of those holidays, because most people observe them.

No one is asking Firms to close on Jewish holidays, just to respect the fact that they exist and are observed by religious Jews. And no one is saying that the work won't get done; I have worked nearly 30% of the weekends in 2007, mostly because I couldn't finish the work on Friday or because the High Holidays came out mid-week this year. It has been a very rare occasion (for me at least) that someone had to "unexpectedly" get pulled in on something that absolutely had to be done Fri. night because I couldn't complete it. I put "unexpectedly" in quotes because if I knew something HAD to get done by Friday, I would have stayed late the night before (or Weds. night too in some cases) so I don't have to pawn off my work to someone else on Friday. But if someone came up on Friday that was not anticipated before that time and had to be done that night, then yes someone else would have to jump in in my absence.

But, you know what? That's just life -- deal with it people. It would be no different if the person who was absent was so absent because of a wedding, vacation, etc. (well, at least, I hope you're at a Firm where that would be the case--i.e, partners would have the decency not to cause you to miss something unnecessarily when someone else could handle the job) and someone had to fill in for him/her for under those circumstances.

But I suspect those instances are the exception and not the norm for the overwhelming majority of people. I mean, seriously, how often is something that needs to get out Friday night not know (without prior notice) before that day? For example, if you have a closing on a Friday, you would have known that well in advance. If you had a court filing due on Friday, you, too, would have known that well in advance. And, realistically, do most clients wait around late Fridays to get something or even do work on the weekend for that matter, if a deadline was not communicated well in advance?

However, I can allow this: if you are a Jewish associate and did know well in advance of a Friday deadline looming, and did not work your ass off the nights before or even the weekend before to get in done before sundown Friday, knowing (or even hoping) that some poor shlep would get this dumped on them to meet the deadline, then you are truly a piece of shit and not a mench. This I can agree to, because to the extent you can make your religious observance "not someone else's problem," you should (and do everything you can to get there, not just a half-hearted effort, I mean really and truly plan ahead of time to meet your work obligations and make them fit with your observance).

Any, Shabbat Shalom everyone!! Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays etc!!!

Here's a question that no one I've read so far has really addressed:

Does it make ANY SENSE to think that religion is the reason this plaintiff was fired? His spotty work history aside, let's assume that he was one of those hard-working, efficient people cited on here so often (and I can commisserate with that positive stereotype, as I know a few myself whom I have no problem working with) who took Saturdays off for religious reasons. Let's also assume that his work product was otherwise great.

If this is the case, what possible reason would A&O have had for firing him? They must have other Jewish lawyers...how is it that their anti-Semitism wound up all focused on this poor soul? Why would they want to get rid of this guy who could supposedly do great work and expand their business? Certainly doesn't seem like your typical "greedy lawyer", does it...

What I'm saying is, all debate about how observers should or should not be accomodate aside, it seems INCREDIBLY unlikely to me that he was fired for his religion, or that a firm the size of A&O is composed completely of Gentiles who try to recruit unsuspecting Jews to fire them 2 months later.

I think the complaint makes it pretty clear that it was this particular partner - who was new to A&O - who is the real offender. Of course, ultimately, they're claiming that the firm is responsible for dealing with it entirely inappropriately, but I don't think it's too crazy to suppose that the firm made a bad call and just sided with their new partner, who they presumably want to be happy in his new gig. You're right that it does seem suspicious that they'd target this one particular associate, but, again, the meat of the complaint is against one particular partner.

Since when are the lazy a protected class?

2:17...man...that is way too easy of a set up for (inappropriate, untrue, etc.) jokes that go way beyond this thread.

Don't take the bait! Don't take it!

what does the 14 amendment have to do with anything?

state action, people.

If you want to be a corporate lawyer who observes the sabbath (and there are zillions of them), you have an obligation to work extra hard so that your religious practice does not make life miserable for other people who have to pick up your slack when you cut out on friday afternoon and don't pop up until saturday night. It's just that simple. It's not discriminatory to let go of someone who is making everything harder for everyone else because they aren't around. THe large number of successful orthodox lawyers doesn't mean that the sabbath can't be a problem - it means that these people successfully navigated the demands of their work and their religion. It doesn't mean that everybody can do that, and if you can't, it is offensive to try and hide behind your status as a religious minority. Imagine if you, as a corporate attorney who already works all the time, suddenly find yourself working extra late on Friday nights because an observant attorney has to dump their work on you as they rush out the door at 3:00 (of course this gets worse in the winter). Easy to see how there can be resentment. Therefore orthodox attorneys need to be extremely concientious -- show up at four in the morning on a friday that's what it takes to get your work done without screwing somebody else. And most of them, esp. the ones I have worked with, do just that. But it's easy to see a scenario where an insensitive individual who thinks they are just entitled to drop everything once a week could frustrate people. I think their ability to reconcile their religious obligations with their professional obligations is something an employer can and should take into account when evaluating their performance. It is NOT discriminatory.

Last year my secretary joined a new religion and she now needs to take every other Friday off, cannot work after 2:00p.m. any day and cannot work until noon on the day after long weekends. It is a little bit of a hassle, but this is America and so we have no problem with it. It is amazing how quickly she has converted a few of the other secretaries.

I always thought the point of these special rules was to set you apart from everyone else, to make it a little bit harder in order to honor your creator. Doesn't demanding special treatment conflict with the purpose of the rules?

O HAI

I CAN HAZ SHABBOS OFF NOW?

KTHXBYE

2:44 makes a very interesting point. Where's the sacrifice in complying with these rules if you get accommodated by your firm. And don't give me the I-walked-10-miles-to-pray-all-day routine.

HAHA finally free. Don't tell that nasty ortho Psychiatrist. That coat is special like Rupert Murdoch. He's probably gone now so I'm save to run amok yet again. Amok!

Have you guys ever wanted to swing from doxie beards like Mowgli?!

I tried it, it got me in that nasty coat.

Chabad Company

And although this happens to me as well, in reality there is no excuse for there ever to be an emergency on a Friday afternoon. Why wasn't it equally important Thursday afternoon. It sure is not due on Saturday.

Would this be a record-breaking clusterf**k for ATL?

I think the behavior of the A&O attorney was ridiculous, for the reasons that lots of people have stated above (there are rarely true "emergencies" that need to be taken care of on a Friday night or Saturday, he could make up the time on Sunday if necessary, etc.). However, there are lots of dick partners who would take the same attitude if an associate wanted to take off Good Friday, attend services during an "important" meeting on Ash Wednesday, or even if the associate said they weren't available on Sunday mornings due to church services. I had a Christian partner make a huge issue out of me wanting to travel to visit my family at Christmas one year. That's not even a religious thing -- it's a jerk thing (my practice group was not particularly busy at the time and all of our clients were off for the holidays, so there was no urgent need for me to be in the office). When I was working for that same individual, I rarely took weekend trips, due to his opinion that associates should have their butt in their office chair until the early evening on Fridays and be available to work over the weekend.

Out of curiosity, how do observant Jews handle this with respect to other professions?

11:59/12:00: you wrote the following:

"As for the "Jewish extremists", doesn't get much press here, but extremist settlers (ones who defy the Israeli governement) who shoot and kill passing Palestinians for sport would probably count."

you realize you made this up? maybe you made it up as you were typing so you could find a way to make your point that every religion has fanatics that want to kill in the name of their religion make sense? whatever the reason, please don't make up trash like that.

4:10: Try to watch something other than Fox News. Coverage I saw was on CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) yesterday. Also,

http://www.humanrights-geneva.info/spip.php?article2418

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1236010.stm

1:28: Point taken - reasonable to consider motivation of much of the violence to be land grab as opposed to religion. However, that goes both ways. Equally then makes none of the Palestinian on Israeli violence anti-semitic - they're not extremists, they just want their land back.

4:10: Why are you so outraged at the claim of Jewish fanatics randomly killing Palestinians, but not at the claim of Christians killing abortion doctors? How many abortionists do you think were killed by Christians in the history of this country? Do you think that this number is lower than the number of Palestinians killed for fun by Israelis? I am a strong supporter of Israel, but during the entire history of Israel surely a handful of Palestinians have been killed "for sport". The number, of course, would be completely insignificant by comparison to all the people who are killed by Muslim extremists every month or perhaps even day, but the murders of abortionists by Christians are just as rare, if not more so.

Alas. This thread has proven the error of Godwin's law.

4:09- I think we work for the same bunch of a**hole partners

Never in my life have I seen such disrespectful, disgusting comments coming from seemingly intelligent people. I really hope that no orthodox jews are affected by these comments. I have the greatest respect for anyone who has the DISCIPLINE to be orthodox, and I'd be happy to have Orthodox jews at my firm. Thankfully, I've never met anyone who has complained about an Orthodox Jew observing Shabbos. None of you haters would ever admit to it if we knew your identity b/c you know it's unacceptable and disgusting. If there is a G-d, you disrespectful people are screwed...

I am shocked and dismayed at the number of anti-semitic comments being made on this posting here. orthodox jewish people do NOT have the choice to work during the sabbath. It isn't a choice, it is a requirement. True, there are other Jewish attorneys who do not observe the sabbath, and that does not make them any less Jewish, but it does make them less observant. The fact that there are so many of these comments on this website makes me wonder whether I, a jewish female soon to be attorney, is making the correct career choice. But, I will not surrender to the bigotted comments of inferior people. Jewish people have faced this discrimination for 1000s of years, and it always comes from those who are insecure with their own positions and are jealous of those who prosper and excel, despite only working "part time".

For those who are taking this opportunity as a forum to express their sentiment on the state of israel just further informs me that we haven't come as far as we have thought, even in this grand country. Anti-zionism is a very thin shield for anti-semitism, and the fact that people chose to post their anti-zionist sentiment on this very page, shows me that it isn't even a thin shield, the terms are interchangeable. This is scary, but, unfortunately, not shocking. Although I have A LOT to say on the political terrain, I will not lower myself to discussing that issue on this forum. I strongly suggest others, who think of themselves as tolerant, to follow suit.

12:20, 10:56, 11:01: I hope that all three of you are new to this forum. If you are, I can understand your dismay at the lack of respect that many commenters have for Orthodox Jews and at the ignorant comments that have been made on the political situation in Israel (though in the case of ignorant comments on Israel, I am not sure why this is worst than ignorant statements from leftists on any other political issue).

If you are not new to this website, however, surely you must have seen the anti-Christian comments that we get every single time a Christian is mentioned on this blog? The fact that anti-Christian bigotry is common here does not make anti-semitic comments more acceptable, of course, but I would really wonder why you only seemed outraged at the later and not at the former.

ah gutte voch. vos iz neias?

I like the Oy-vey-ry part, but the first name can be tweaked as well:

Allen & Overy = Challa & Oy-vey-ry!!

1:26 --- Yes, of course all bigoted comments are unacceptable, but perhaps these anti-semetic comments promote more outrage than other bigoted comments because just two generations ago, jewish people were put in concentration camps and were killed just for being jewish. never in my life did i think that my colleagues/peers would be hostile because a devout jew is observing jewish law. All you anti-semites should just lateral to A&O so you aren't affected by the terrible inequities you perceive yourself suffering from working with orthodox jews.

4:09: Religious Catholic here, so it's not the group you directed your question to. My solution is to go to mass and face the consequences (there haven't been any for me, admittedly). It's part of the religion to be conspicuous and do unpopular things sometimes. If you live your life to please every dick partner, you're destined to fail.

From an insider--A&O has several very observant Jewish partners, and a number of senior associates who take off Friday at 3 and re-surface on Sunday. Schoenfeld's group claims an Orthodox Jew amongst its partners. This guy was/is a giant douche who did crap work, failed to disclose a former employer on his background check (interesting--why?) and then stopped coming into the office all of the sudden without checking in.

A&O is too vanilla to be antisemitic.

I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out why everyone is so quick to dump on A&O over this.

Do you really think they don't have other observant Jewish partners and associates, and those others don't take the Sabbath off without incident?

Do you really think this complaining associate is on the level after he didn't disclose his previous employment to A&O, and wouldn't name the firm in the complaint?

This thing stinks of somebody who screwed up after he tagged along with that new partner, and is now trying to play the "anti-semite" card to tarnish the firm.

Even if his work was subpar or he "screwed up", it won't make any difference once he produces the emails and other evidence of the flak the partner gave him for his religious observances.

Every large firm has one or two guys like this partner, and firms will always pay for it when these partners can't control themselves.

The only question will be how much $$$

For all of you who think you speak for all "biglaw" firms when you say that all attorneys must be available 7 days of the week, and there is no allowance for observing the Sabbath, you are mistaken. I know of outstanding Sabbath-observant attorneys, who also bill plenty of hours, and produce high-quality results.

The fact that people believe that a day off decreases work product quality and productivity shows how messed up this legal system is.

mostly atheist jew here. i used to work for an orthodox partner who would regularly dump work on me and my associate colleagues on fridays (and before jewish holidays), and demand that we finish it by saturday night so he could review. so, in a long litigation, we were sprinting seven days a weeks (for months!) while he was running six, or less. i don't care that being shomer shabbos is "hard" -- at least he was doing something different, and with his family/social group, which we were not. i hated him for it. we all did. be as observant as you wanna be, but don't expect me to like it, and don't expect me to bend over backwards for you for anything else.

now that i have a kid, i will on occasion dump work on my juniors so i can help put him to bed, help out around the house, etc. i try not to do it all the time, and i try to do as much advance planning as possible so as not to dump things on people.

the moral: in a business where every 1/10th hour of your life is a choice between billing and not, and there is huge pressure to spend more time billing and less time not, your choice -- and yes, it is always a choice -- to not bill will occasionally dump work on someone else, who will resent you.

so, balance your life, and balance who you piss off. every single day of my life, i balance pissing off a partner/client/junior associate and pissing off my wife/child. most days i manage not not piss off anyone. some days i have to choose.

incidentally, the main difference between being observant and being a good parent: jewish holidays are utterly inflexible about time, whereas if i promise my wife one or two nights a week i'll definitely be home, i can pick the days the case isn't blowing up, whereas if the brief is due monday and the client didn't get major comments to us until friday afternoon... you can face your god when you die, and i hope that goes well for you. but you're going to face me on monday morning (or saturday night, or sunday, whatever), and i'm not happy with you.

3:21 --- it seems odd to complain about getting dumped on by a partner? Isn't that what partners do every day? When I'm asked to do work at 7:30 pm by a partner or senior associate on his way out of the office, I take as part of the job that I have to live with. What difference does it make that the partner was a Sabbath observer or spending the day playing golf while you and others toiled away for him in the office?

"Th Managing Partner at Proskauer is an orthodox jew, somehow I dont think this would be a problem there. This is a British firm that is growing in NY and obviously is not aware of the fact that there are orthodox jews all over the New York big firms and thats the way it works here

Sullivan too"

You can add former MPs at Wachtell and Fried Frank to the list.

http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/action/search/basic
and type:

Allen Overly confidential

lawyer with insane hours and a big paycheck

You seem proud of that! HA- truck drivers also work insane hourse and get big paychecks- youre a tool with a capital TOOL

On "The Apprentice", this debate about a Sabbath observer cam up among the contestants. Donald Trump understands business and was disgusted that someone wanted to axe the Orthodox Jew among them for missing Saturday. Trump, who doesn't have an ounce of Jewish blood in him, immediately fired the guy complaining.

You trolls making bigoted comments here are supposed to be officers of the court but you are nothing but a disgrace. You would be censored or disbarred for talking like this on the record.

For shame.

How ironic that all you lawyers are moralizing about a slacker. I bet that every one of you pigs dishonestly overbills your clients.

It's well known what my solution is for your ilk.

... far better than moralizing about an anti-sabbath

anti-shabite

This thread is both appalling and embarassing. A group of highly educated people who cant seem to tell the difference between religious observance and slacking is pathetic.

It's not like Orthodox Jews are out running amok on a Saturday and Friday night. They are praying and studying, things that they take as seriously, likely more so than working. The type of discipline it takes to be so observant is impressive. (and no, I am not an orthodox jew - just not an ignorant fool either).

I'm a Jew (not orthodox) and I worked as an associate at a big NYC Jewish firm for ten years. During those years, I worked closely with both orthodox and secular Jews. There were client and other emergencies on Friday evenings and on Saturdays. The problem I encountered with the orthodox Jews during those times was purely emotional. I resented their attitude, their uncompromising rigidity, and not their observance per se. They never said "sorry" or excused themselves for leaving in the midst of a crisis.

This is a problem with blogs that happens elsewhere on other topics. It's probably the same couple of losers who have an axe to grind with Orthodox Jews that are typing the majority of negative posts to unfairly influence the readership.

I can tell you that on Wall St, virtually all of the complaints about the Orthodox supposedly putting a crimp in people's lifestyle come from insecure secular Jews. The Orthodox really make them squirm and feel uneasy about their lack of observance just by their very being. The seculars are very unaccomodating to their religious kin to the point of absurdity. At least that's how it was at Goldman and I've heard of some extreme examples elsewhere.

10/26/07 10:11- what? so they should get a bonus from my paycheck

Absurdistan- it's a two-way street

I'm a muslim lawyer at BIGLAW in NYC (believe it or not). Leave the orthodox jews alone... they make up the time on Sunday and work hard (overcompensate)to prove they are not being "lazy" -- what they have to do on their religious "holidays" does not sound like they are lazy ... it sounds like hard work... I worked for an orthodox jewish senior associate for years... he worked very hard, taught me everything I know and was very respectful to me and other minorities (gays etc). law firms can accomodate them -- they suck the life out of everyone (including them) the rest of the week...