My favorite pigeonhole horror story is this: medical malpractice of the lower extremities. Yikes.

In my experience, the first thing an associate has to do is be vocal. Before I ever joined my firm full-time, they knew I wanted to do as much patent litigation as possible. To that end, an effort was made to get me those kinds of projects. There were other associates who weren't real vocal about what they wanted, and they ended up doing prosecution all day.

In the end, there wasn't enough litigation to satisfy me. So I left. No hard feelings.

I guess my view is that you need to be vocal. I don't think it's wise to worry about rocking the boat or anything like that. For one, if the work's out there, they'll be happy to give it to you. If they won't, then you don't want to be working there. At least, I'd want to work at a place that gave me some flexibility over the projects I worked on. Secondly, if the work's not there -- well, you don't want to work there. If you're unhappy doing something, you'll be really unhappy doing it for the next 40 years.

Find an approachable partner you want to work with. Ask said partner for work. Cross your fingers and hope that (1) said partner delivers work and (2) you get the work at a slow moment.

I'd like to pidgeonhole some of the help around here.

3:37 - "pidgeon"? speling is not your strong point.

Any Sidley lawyers want to chime in on this? I summer at the Chicago office last year and I know they're going to assign me to a particular practice group immediately. I loved all of the practice groups I did work for over the summer, but I want to stay as diversified as possible for as long as possible. If you have a particular interest in 1 or 2 other practices groups besides the one you're assigned to, is it common for Sidley to let you branch out and do work for those other groups?

I'd like to pidgeonhole some of the help around here.

"said" partner? Someone does patent persecution.

patent prosecutions?

What about patent litigations?

what about pigeon-holing based on language abilities?

according to the vizu poll, 20% of your readership is registered nurses

3:42 - how do you not know this after summering at a firm? I knew all my firms dirty laundry after the first month as a summer - that's why you go to all the summer events where first and second year associates drink....

I'd like to pigeonhole some of the help so that it disrupts their language abilities.

what about pigeon-holing based on language abilities?

i agree with the "be vocal" comment. do you expect the partners to read your mind?

Great thread. I'm happily pigeon-holed but it happens to a lot of good people in a bad way.

"If you're unhappy doing something, you'll be really unhappy doing it for the next 40 years."

Why didn't someone tell me that before I got married?

Thank you - I'll be here all week. . .

I'll second "IP assoc at large firm in Chicago"'s advice to be vocal. I'd add being persistant: If you want a certain type of work, ask everyone who has it (being vocal), and keep asking them regularly. The work you want may not be around at the moment you ask for it, and if you're not persistant, your request may have been forgotten by the time there's the work you want.

(And of course, if you're *too* persistant, you'll piss everyone off, which *at least* will prevent you from getting the work you want.)

And finally, if you keep asking for different work, and you never get it after a reasonable period of time, don't be afraid to lateral. If you're really brave, don't be afraid to let your firm know you're looking.

And to Future Sidley Assoc: I don't know anything about Sidley or your desired practice area, but being forced to pick a practice area is not necessarily being pigeonholed. (It might be more of a beaurocratic convenience.) Also, it's perfectly good to want to diversify your practice... say, do a little of patent prosecution, a little IP litigation, and some IP licensing. It's another thing to want to do tax, litigation, real estate development, and immigration. Whatever the scope of your desired diversification, ask a lawyer you know whether it's reasonable to shoot for that scope in your career.

I think how you start matters.

1. Don't fill up your plate intially with the same types of cases. If you want to do mostly IP, but not exclusively IP, don't take on 3 IP cases when you get started. Take on 2, and then go looking elsewhere for your third case.

2. Be willing to turn down work and able to do it properly (how to do it properly varies by firm, I think).

3. Actively seek out stuff in your "other" areas of interest -- talk to other associates, check the stuff from conflicts about the firm's "new matters," talk to partners who work in your "other" areas, etc.

better to be pigeonholed than cornholed

I agree with the "be vocal" comments, for sure. I have noticed and thought about this phenomenon a lot, except instead of calling it "pigeonholed" I call it getting "niched".

It seems like, at least 5 or 6 years into practice, every attorney begins to develop, and work primarily within, some niche practice (even "general litigators" often begin to specialize in antitrust, or commercial class actions, or securities, etc.). And, in my opinion, unless you are proactive about determining what your niche will be, you will get "niched" into whatever type of work you have done the most of at your firm.

At my firm, I let them know when I was a summer that I wanted as much IP litigation as they could give me, and so far they have been good about giving me a bunch. Though I am by no means exclusively doing IP, I do it (much) more consistently than any other type of litigation. In a year or two, I will be able to bounce into a boutique or another firm's specialty IP-only group. If I was less proactive, and let myself get staffed on enormous securities litigations all the time, then my speciality one day would be handling large document productions and electronic data transfers - not what I want to do.

So, speak up or pay the price for taking what you get...

A good way to get our of being pigeonholed is to be pigeonholing your partner's secretary over her desk when he gets there in the morning... it will make things sufficiently uncomfortable (be it that your dippin' into his honey pot), that he'll pass you on to another partner.

I've been pigeonholed as partner material. I keep getting complicated assignments that the partners would rather not take responsibility for. I'm on a trajectory to be successful at a firm which is truly like winning a pie eating contest and being rewarded with more pie. Maybe I should develop a leadership style that cultivates younger people to do my work. Then I can make partner and get other people to work for me. We'll see.

when i was in prep school guys I knew got cornholed all the time. it was no big deal

Girls at my high school used to get pigeonholed all the time, even though they didn't like to admit it. It was no big deal.

I think we were all pigeonholed in second grade when that dumb teacher spoke up and said, "s/he appears to be gifted, s/he should be in the advanced section." It's been all down hill since then.

Slash and burn is the method that worked for me (i.e., move firms). Saw prosecutors who tried to "ease into" or "get a feel for" patent lit while keeping their seniority and pay. Lit partners generally don't think you're dedicated to the case, always remember you as that pros guy that wants to do lit, and you're very expensive/don't know anything about lit. A lot of people end up getting sucked back into prosecution or becoming career lit support. As long as there's a way back, it will be hard because you're more experienced/profitable in your old role. My suggestion for escaping the pigeonhole is to move to a firm that doesn't even do patent prosecution, take a step back in seniority, and start learning from the ground up...or just keep bitching and watch as you become more senior and pigeonholed.

If an associate wants to, Hogan will let him or her rotate through practice groups for up to 18 months before settling.

I don't know why the hell anyone would want to do pat-lit... it sucks balls, like all of this law stuff. Prosecution is easier, less complicated, pays the same, and requires fewer hours. Sure, it's about lame as hell, but so is all this bullshit. Same as any other job. We're all here because someone else didn't want to have to do what we're doing. Kinda like cookin' burgers at McDonalds... we just have more education and cater to higher priced customers. Now professional BASE jumping would be the shit.

If an associate wants to, Hogan will let him or her rotate through practice groups for up to 18 months before settling.

Oh, 4:09 (3) how right you are...damn teacher making us all overachievers!

4:16(3) - I know... that stupid bitch. And I was only barely smart enough to be in there anyway. So I was basically the retard in the smart section... nice, did wonders for the self-esteem. Should have been a garbage man. Charlie Sheen did okay in Men at Work.

re 410's advice to switch to a new birdhouse if you don't like your pigeonhole.

Yes, but. But better firms try to give their own home-grown lawyers cross-training, whereas laterals (even very junior laterals) are, in my experience, expected to stay put in the narrow group that they were hired into.

As a lateral you won't know the other partners from back when you did that great 50 state survey as a summer, and they won't want to talk to you anyway since their colleague speifically recruited you to his team.

In the IP world, I think you have to get pigeonholed between prosecution or litigation. Let's face it, you can't train a 6th or 7th year litigator to do prosecution at their billing rate. Similalrly, a 6th or 7th year prosecutor could not do litigation as (1) they would have no idea what they are doing and (2) it would be an expensive endeavor for someone who has no idea what they are doing.

Of course associates are pigeonholed or slotted into a practice group. In most firms, that's how firms are structured - though in a lot of larger firms there are "New Associates" or "New Litigators" groups that mollifies this. The hard reality for most junior associates, however, is that you need to find and secure a set of 'patron' partners and senior associates as soon as possible to keep the workflow/hours coming. If you "branch out" like a summer associate, you generally will have a harder time doing this. No single attorney(s) will have any connection or loyalty to you, and you may find yourself on the outside looking in. My advice is to do your homework as a summer associate and make a wise decision on the front end.

He said "front end"... hehe.

its "prosecution" not "prosecutions"

Being pigeonholed is what justifies your $300+/hr billing rate. Without specialized knowledge, you aren't worth big firm rates.

Whether it's because of your own indecision or the firm's decision to place you (and your simultaneous failure to object), it's your own fault. Always your fault. No one brings significant value to the firm as a lawyer in general. Therefore, switching practice groups destroys 90% of the value created by experience.

There is a point in time where everyone has to make a decision and stick with it. Much like deciding to go to law school. It would make no sense to allow associates to move freely among different groups. They lose too much in the way of soured investment in the associates' experience, the only asset they have to trade on.

Oops I went and pigeonholed myself out of a law firm...

I think it is amusing that people think of being pigeonholed necessarily as a 'bad thing.' What is pigeonholed to one is specialization to another. Remember it is better to be an expert in one specialty rather than a jack of all trades...

What would be some practice areas to avoid (other than structured finance)?

bankruptcy

bankruptcy

3:40 - you criticized his spelling, but you misspelled "spelling.

"speling is not your strong point"

Chuckle.

3:40 - you criticized his spelling, but you misspelled "spelling."

"speling is not your strong point"

Chuckle.

Um, no.

Simply "vocal[izing]" what you want is not nearly enough. Even tenaciously vocalizing is not always enough. You will end up where the partners decide they want you, period. If a partner makes you his "pet," it's either great for you or horrible for you. If you like the work your partner does, and your partner is a reasonable person (i.e., non-hoarder), you're doing just fine. But if you don't really love the work that partner does, and if he IS the jealous type, you're fucked no matter how persistently you ask others for other work. This is no fault of one's own; in fact, ironically, it's probably a function of making oneself indispensible to the partner in question. You have zero control over your workload as a first- or second-year. By the time you're a third-year, everyone knows whom you "belong" to. There is not much choice, period.

And I have to admit to a sneaking suspicion that the people who claim that being vocal is all it takes are men. There's another word for being persistently vocal: "nagging." Except that in our sexist world, women are the only ones capable of nagging, even if they are doing the exact same thing as a man who is not nagging. Prove me wrong, boys.

Also, it's ridiculously easy for a patent attorney who loves his job to say "all you have to do is ask!" Every firm (that does patent work) wants more patent attorneys -- some of them even offer pay differentials as enticement. Trying to generalize your experience to those of us who want to do other things is either disingenuous or genuinely deluded. It's like a hot girl walking into a bar full of sex addicts and later exclaiming to her homely friend, "I don't understand why you think it's so hard to get laid! All you have to do is ask!"

This depends on the firm and the market.

As we all know, many firms allow (or require) new associates to split practice groups or rotate practice groups. This can last for a certain period of time, or as long as the associate wants, depending on the particular firm. At those firms, it's easier to avoid forced specialization or get out of it. You just ask for a different rotation or split - those firms tend to value self-specialization from associates AFTER they've tried them on for size. The only real way that these firms don't accommodate these wishes is if the associate's current practice group is too busy to allow it (or the associate is needed on a current matter) or if the practice group he wants to explore is too light.

As for the firms that just slot associates based on the associates' stated preference or the firms' current needs: This is tougher. At certain firms, in certain practice groups and in certain markets, it's okay to be vocal about trying to explore other practice groups. Your request may be well-received, and the powers-that-be will do what they can to accommodate you. In those firms, practice groups, times (and you'll generally have a sense for the environment), it's fine to speak out.

In other firms, practice groups, times, it can be VERY difficult to speak out. Maybe you're the group's newest associate because the last associate lateralled out (either in or outside the firm). And maybe that group is really busy - so they won't let you go to explore another group, because they can't spare the resource. Or maybe the firm is starting to look at some cost-cutting, and they know that they have an associate who's in one practice group, but would like to play the field -- that's an associate who is likely more attractive for a reduction (without a niche and a risk to jump ship or have a loss of the practice group's investment in him).

Each associate who is in this situation needs to be attuned to his particular firm's and group's attitude and environment, because being vocal in some places may work really well, and being vocal in other firms will be an invitation to be shown the door (or passed over for work until the associate decides they have to leave).

416(1): LOL. But still, that leaves you at flipping burgers for $100+/hr until you retire, not very fulfilling.

426(2): I don't know how much value associates put into knowing "that great partner you did that 50 state survey with as a summer." Not after he makes you work three weekends in a row and passive-aggressively nitpicks your punctuation. It's nice to be warm and fuzzy when you're a summer, but all associates grow up at some point and realize it's a job and a business, and they have to be responsible for their own development, which sometimes means switching jobs.

@3:31

Cravath doesn't "force you to join a specific team," nor does the firm force you to spend your entire career there. The "weakness" you are referring to is one of the main reasons many people desire to work there: the Cravath system. My understanding is that Cravath attorneys get a certain level of choice in which team they are assigned to, and after about 12 months they move to another team. No one is "pigeon-holed" at their firm, because all associates are required to switch specialty groups every year.

Then again, maybe you mean to say that one would be "pigeon-holed" for 12 months. That seems a bit of a stretch to me. If anything, Cravath attorneys are pigeon-holed as generalists, being forced to try different things every year. Though I'm not sure if one could alternate between two favored groups and avoid the others...

That said, I personally think their system is better than the ones where associates get stuck in a subspecialty doing the same types of deals/cases over and over for a 3-5 year stint. You are free to disagree.

Shut up people. My department actively discourages specialization at any level from first year to service partner. With the exception of patent and a few very small or new groups, we are all "general litigators." It sucks. A lot. I wish someone would pigeon my hole. Or at least let me pigeon my own hole in the privacy of my own office.

@3:31

The "weakness" you are referring to is one of the main reasons many people desire to work there: the Cravath system. Cravath doesn't "force you to join a specific team," to my knowledge. You have to join "a" team, but my understanding is that Cravath attorneys get a certain level of choice as to which team they are assigned. Moreover, no associate spends their entire career with that team. After about 12 months (15?), the firm forces you to move to a different team in a different specialty. That basically negates any possibility of every being "pigeon-holed" in a team or specialty.

Then again, maybe you mean to say that one would be "pigeon-holed" for 12 months. That seems a bit of a stretch to me, and also a little misleading based on the realities of the system.

Admittledly, Cravath attorneys may be pigeon-holed as generalists, being forced to try different things every year. Still, I'm not sure whether one could alternate between two favored groups and avoid the others...

I personally think their system is better than the ones where associates get stuck in a subspecialty doing the same types of deals/cases over and over for a 3-5 year stint. You are free to disagree.

Cravath also doesn't generally take laterals. If you've already been pigeonholed elsewhere, it's too late.

Also, if you didn't get into a really good law school and do well there, it's probably also too late for that

Man, I'm thinkin about pigeonholing a nice piece of ass this Tuesday at the Republican cockus... oops, I mean caucus. Some of that high society , highly connected shit... chu kno dey da freeks.

Didn't Richard Gere get pidgeon-holed? Or was it a gerbil?

5:00 - "Prove me wrong, boys."

OK: E=mc2 / 25 x 3.14 + banana - Bjork = you're wrong! There.

This is a blog, how exactly are posters supposed to prove the existence or non-existence of sex/gender based stereotypes?

That's so impractical and illogical. Hmph, women.

Which one are we talking about here?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle

www.originalbirdart.com/images/wrs_thepigeonhole1.jpg

www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The%20Doctors%20Corner/Images/PigeonPox2.JPG

www.spotsylvania.k12.va.us/sms/Student's%20Work/Pigeons/pigeonanatomy.gif

5:31, thanks for illustrating my point.

Us illogical wimmins are always making up sexism everywheres!

5:00, maybe it's your lack of any sort of sense of humor and hypersensitivity (not to mention your weird sarcastic tendencies) that cause people to think of you as a bitch, uh, i mean nag.

I think it is better to be specialized than not for partnership purposes, but you should still have your hand in other stuff. A specialty makes you less expendable, i.e., reduces the supply of people that could replace you.

5:18, I'm aware of the details of the CSM "system"--it's the only reason I turned them down (my interest was general commercial litig.). I recall the rotation period as being more than 12 months, and believe it was 18, but could be wrong.

I'm probably not using the term "pigeonholed" in the same sense Lat meant, but I think that being stuck with a group for a long, fixed period of time, with no ability to go sooner or stay longer, has similar effects. As for CSM's relatively superior approach as compared to being stuck in a niche, there is a third option: firms offering generalist approaches, but with free market assignment systems (where I wound up going, and am thus far pretty happy).

i agree with the "be vocal" comment. do you expect the partners to read your mind?

Posted by: Anonymous | January 31, 2008 03:54 PM

Why shouldn't we? They keep expecting us to read theirs.

5:00, you've got issues!

Prove you wrong? ok - I know this 1L here, and HE bugs the crap out of me about everything, and never shuts up about anything, and I think HE is a nag. On the other hand, I know several women at my firm who are very vocal about issues when necessary, but reasonable in doing so, and no one I know has ever called one of them a nag - in fact, they are very well regarded.

PS - interesting that you made the asshole partner in your post a man.

What's the difference between getting pigeon-holed and getting corn-holed?

Never mind, I'll just go ask the senior partner who sits down the hall.

5:00 - how on earth did you miss attempt at humor in my signoff? Come on, the blatantly sexist stereotype followed by the lamentation "women"? Geez, if I made it any more obvious, it wouldn't be funny (might have been too obvious to begin with to qualify as good humor).

Ironically, I don't disagree that there can be a sexist double standard at law firms. I've heard of it happening from co-workers of mine, although not on this exact issue.

Not to mention hearing female co-workers point out that a lot of the suggestions made by partners about how to solve problems that involve being super-aggressive don't blend well with how women prefer to operate. And I've heard that complaint made by a woman in a room full of people (basically responding to a suggestion to march into someone's office and tell them what's what with "We just don't work that way") who I would NEVER think would be put off by having to be aggressive.

My whole original point was that saying "Prove me wrong" on a blog is ridiculous. How? I'm not sure how I'd prove "sexism doesn't exist" if you were standing in my office (if, in fact, I believed that it didn't), let alone on the other end of a blog.

Its no one's fault but your own if you get pigeonholed.

An associate gets pigeonholed if they (a) aren't vocal enough to senior attorneys (in an appropriate non-whiny manner); (b) complain about not getting certain types of work/not getting to work with certain partners but don't do anything proactive (ex: "I’ve been emailing so-and-so-partner for 2 months telling him I’m available but he keeps telling me he doesn't have anything," "there's no work, all I have is doc review, woe is me, guess I'll play on the internet and take a 3 day weekend"); and/or (c) have developed a reputation as having poor work product and/or not being willing to work hard (as a Jr. associate you've got to least be at the office from 9-6, and don't "work from home" unless you are deathly ill - you might think no one notices but they do and they've written you off as a slacker).

No one at the firm is going to make sure you meet your professional development goals, or that you're interested in every matter you're working on. You are there to bill hours and make the firm money, so its up to you to make sure that you get to work in your area(s) of interest while doing that.

So many associates are completely clueless about the negative impressions they give - and then they wonder why they don't have any work and everyone else does, they never get the interesting assignments, why they're stuck with doc review, or why they are pigeonholed into an area they don't like.

Some tips:

(1) Make your interests known to the partners in your office in a clear manner that isn't annoying, give gentle reminders as needed, and flattery always helps (ex: "That offering you did last month for bigco sounded really challenging Partner A, I'd love to work on an offering with you when one comes in. Please let me know if you need any help"). Keep your ears open for news about incoming matters, and when you hear of one you're interested in (or that a partner you'd like to work with has a new matter), call the partner or send him an email showing your interest and volunteering your help. Be proactive and show initiative - partners want to work with associates who take initiative and try to make the partner's life easier rather than associates who wait for assignments to be handed out and are picky about what they'll work on. The latter tells the partner that you'll require lots of instruction and hand holding -- which is not worth the partner's time.

(2) Show partners that you’re knowledgeable about the practice area and that you can bring value to it. Keep up to date on every major case in that area, know any circuit splits -- and be able to discuss the basic legal background. Ask questions that demonstrate that you are knowledgeable about the area (ex: not “I really want to work on a patent case," but rather, “How do you think the new USPTO rules are going to effect our litigation practice?”

(3) Write articles in your practice area of interest -- this is SO easy! Volunteer to write an article for one of your firm’s newsletters or an ABA section. It doesn't have to be a law school note, it can be a 4 paragraph summary of a recent decision. Instead of emailing Partner B and vocalizing your interest about working on IPOs, its much more impressive to email him and say, “ I’d love to assist with any IPOs you have coming up. By the way, I thought you might be interested in my article in this month’s corporate newsletter about special considerations when conducting IPOs in the biotech industry.”

(4) If you've screwed up on an assignment for a particular partner or group (poor work product, bad writing, missed a deadline), don't let that be their last impression of you. Do whatever you can to fix your mistake and try to do another assignment for them (PERFECTLY) so you don't develop a reputation that prevents them and others from giving you work (word travels quickly!). Do a pro bono project with them, volunteer to author an article with them, re-write the assignment on your own time - if you don't try and redeem yourself, they'll think you are lazy and won’t come to you again.

(5) Last – if you’re consistently looking for work in a certain practice area or with a certain partner but you keep getting rebuffed – don’t stick your head in the sand – read between the lines. Chances are, its not a situation of the partners being too busy to notice that you don't have substantive work, or that “everyone is slow.” Biglaw won’t fire mediocre or sub par associates, they simply get ignored until they go away of their own accord. If you’ve looked for work but have been given nothing but doc review for months, if other associates always seem to be busy and you’re not, if you never have to work nights or weekends, and if you never feel like you have to put in face time at the office, then there’s a good chance everyone else already knows what you haven’t realized – that its time for you to start looking for another job.

Amen!

HYPO: If you're a 3L about to enter a corporate section next fall and want to do securities work (as opposed to M&A work), is that something you tell the section now or once you get started?

Now, so they can plan. Planning to meet partners' requirements for associates is a BIG thing with assigning partner/assigning director types. If you wait until you start, they might have allocated you elsewhere or, at the very least, filled up the holes they had in securities work.

If, for some reason, they want to wait until you arrive to decide, you've at the very least put yourself at the top of the list (or in the front of their mind) as someone to approach with securities work.

@4:50

Anything related to real estate. After what happened at No Profit Flacid, there is no just reason to remotely run that risk if you can help it.

Future Sidley Assoc - You should not expect to get work outside your group, especially work you'd actually be interested in doing.

The time of associates can be jealously guarded by partners, and on top of this, desirable (interesting) work from one group is not generally handed out to associates in other groups unless there's absolutely zero availability in the originating group. Among other things, group profitability is measured, and presumably part of the partner comp calculus, so partners generally want to busy their own group's associates, not those of other groups.

why avoid bankruptcy?

I know a bunch of lawyers who just got pigeonholed out of a job....

I was pigeonholed at my previous firm because that was what was hot in the market at that time. I didn't really enjoy the area but since I've been doing it for about 5 years now, I just became specialized. If I had started out in a firm that had a rotation system, I think I would have tried to work in a different department. Unfortunately, my small office did not offer other departments...

"Pigeoned holed" means developing some experience that convinces clients you know your head from your asshole in the area of law that matters to them. Why is this an issue? Maybe your mother told you your whole life you were so "special" that you could do whatever you wanted to do, but that doesn't cut it with clients who need someone who has some expertise on whatever issue will win or lose the case.

Expertise makes you more impressive to clients and valuable personally. Nothing wrong with that. It also makes you able to talk like a law professor in an area. Nothing wrong with that either.

I suppose there are some geniuses out there (probably the same guys who ate law books for breakfast in school) who could become a multi-discipline expert, but that just isn't happening for most people, even at the BigLaw level of academic talent. You are probably most effective as a specialist, and that's the bottom line. In the case of firms, literally the bottom line, as you are too damn expensive to bill out as a generalist or trainee unless you really are some sort of unique wizard who can contribute from Day One in an area of the law they only vaguely know. It happens, but you don't need to be told you are one of those guys if you can do it. You know.

2:11 - your point is true, but the larger issue remains. Associates get thrown into a specialty or sub-specialty starting Day 1. Many don't get the opportunity to decide what they would actually like to specialize in unless they lateral. There is a large difference between succeeding in a specialty, and misaligning yourself in the wrong specialty. I would assume most people who feel pigeonholed are experiencing the latter.

s&c is a terrible place to work. i've never been so miserable...

2:51am--are you joking or are you working at this hour at said place?

I don't think you should avoid bankruptcy- as a bankruptcy attorney you have a lot of versatility in terms of pitching in for other departments if things get slow for you (ex. when the economy is good). When the economy is bad, you are in demand. Permanent job security.

Excellent advice, 7:05. Let me add as well that the working from home advice applies just as much to "laid-back" firms. It is "acceptable" to work from home occasionally, sure. But that does not mean it is a good idea. Your reputation and the type of work you get will suffer for it -- people will not think of you as a go-to person when the shit hits the fan, because you might not be around.

Is that fair? Absolutely. If I work hundreds of hours more per year than someone who reviews documents in their PJs with one eye on reality TV, it's completely fair that I should get to spend that time on better projects.

The Cravath system works at what its intended to do - make great partners. Its frustrating for associates, at times. You don't really get a say in what your next rotation will be. A friend of mine asked to not be put in a specific group - and that's the very group he ended up in.

9:35 -

Thanks - sorry for the treatise, this thread just irked me because I've seen so many fellow associates moan about not getting the interesting assignments, never getting travel assignments, getting stuck with doc review, or being pigeonholed - but are utterly clueless that that its their own fault.

Even at a lifestyle firm, but especially at biglaw, if you have never been at the office until 2am (or later), if you can count the times you've come in on a weekend on 1 hand, or if you've never had to cancel social/family plans due to work, you're doing something wrong.

You don't need to be a brown noser or a slave (that can hurt you too, you do need to set some boundaries to be respected), but as a junior associate, you don't have much to offer except your unfettered availability - the firm isn't paying for your skills and experience, they're paying for you to be on call at all times and to make work your priority. Many associates chose not to make work their top priority (to pursue hobbies, spend time with family, etc.) and you can certainly coast for a few years working the minimum, going home at a reasonable hour, and still collect a paycheck. But believe it or not, the firm notices if 90% of your billable hours are from doc review (as opposed to projects that teach you skills - making them money and getting you free training at the same time). So if you don't get asked to work on the interesting cases, you keep getting stuck on doc review, or your bonus isn't as good as another associate who worked about the same hours (but on substantive projects), that's why.

Firms aren't going to reward an associate for racking up hours doing doc review, that's the minimum work expected to keep earning your salary. To get the better projects you have to become valuable to the firm as a go-to person who actively increases their value to the firm. If they can hire a temp to do your job (like for doc review), you have not proven your value.

Also, anyone who bills more than 8 hours per day doing doc review "working from home" - don't kid yourself. Subtract 1 hour for the PJs and at least 1/3 of the time for Oprah.

Probably, but not me.

re: Working from home

I get way more done when I work at home than when I come in to the office. I usually work from home if I start working on a project early- at 5 or 6- and am on a roll and don't want to take a break to shower and commute. Or deal with my coworkers requests fashion advice or pro bono clients calling to kibbitz.

That being said, the partners I work for don't seem to recognize that working from home makes me more productive.

Some firms have more of a free market system and others have more structured groups. Some good students/attorneys have gone to more structured firms and got stuck doing one type of lit despite efforts to move. One way out is to leave the firm.

Some benefits of a structured system is that you may not have to look for work or be as independent (sink or swim). You will jsut get your work from a couple partners. The free market allows you to get the work you want but you also have to learn to say "no" and keep the right amount of work on your plate.

For 2Ls, laterals, etc, this is a good question to ask before you pick a firm. Also, think about what kind of environment is best for you.

There is a great post at http://www.marketingforyoungprofessionals.com/2008/02/working-room-on-job.html that I think is helpful for anyone that is interested in this topic. It deals with self-marketing within the confines of your own firm.

Associates get pigeonholed all the time in Big Law on big cases. Its often not about the practice area, but about the need of the client. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of associates that end up leaving because they are "stuck" on a case where the partner will not allow them to take on work from other people. Most often, that partner is difficut to work with and the firm knows it.

An associate that gets put on a case like that, can spend 3-7 years "stuck" and the firm knows that and does nothing (because the client interests always come first). The firm does nothing even when the associate is vocal about wanting to work with other people.

Then, when the associate finally calls it quits, the management seems surprised that don't retain as many mid-levels and senior associates as they would like.

With that said, Jan. 31 7:05 p.m. sounds like a partner who has not considered how other partners "hug" associates and "claim" them. Its not about the associate. In fact, if the associate does great work, they are most likely to get "stuck". It's the associate that gets everyone else to do their work (i.e. "delegates") that often sits pretty and gets ahead.

Associates get pigeonholed all the time in Big Law on big cases. Its often not about the practice area, but about the need of the client. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of associates that end up leaving because they are "stuck" on a case where the partner will not allow them to take on work from other people. Most often, that partner is difficut to work with and the firm knows it.

An associate that gets put on a case like that, can spend 3-7 years "stuck" and the firm knows that and does nothing (because the client interests always come first). The firm does nothing even when the associate is vocal about wanting to work with other people.

Then, when the associate finally calls it quits, the management seems surprised that don't retain as many mid-levels and senior associates as they would like.

With that said, Jan. 31 7:05 p.m. sounds like a partner who has not considered how other partners "hug" associates and "claim" them. Its not about the associate. In fact, if the associate does great work, they are most likely to get "stuck". It's the associate that gets everyone else to do his/her work (i.e. "delegates") that often sits pretty and gets ahead.