Nationwide Pay Raise Watch: The Lay of the Land in Atlanta
As we reported earlier this week, the Atlanta office of Paul Hastings has adopted a new pay scale, with a starting salary of $160,000.
The Fulton County Daily Report picks up the news today. It's not new, since it was announced on Wednesday. But the article, by Meredith Hobbs, has a nice round-up of where things stand in the Atlanta market, post-Paul Hastings:
Like most of their competitors, Paul Hastings paid first-years $130,000 in 2007, the rate established by last spring's round of pay raises. The firm had delayed unveiling its response to the increase to $145,000 triggered by Alston & Bird in August (with smaller raises up the classes) until now.Paul Hastings' new pay scale goes from $160,000 for first-years -- the current market rate for first-years in more expensive cities such as Washington, Chicago, Los Angeles and New York -- to $215,000 for seventh-years.
By comparison, King & Spalding announced in October a 2008 scale starting at $145,000 for first-years and going to $195,000 for seventh-years. At that time, King & Spalding established a richer bonus system, which upped pay for first-years receiving bonuses to $152,500, and star seven-years to as high as $250,000.
Paul Hastings does not calculate bonuses until after the end of its fiscal year, so associate bonuses correlating to 2008 compensation will not be determined until the end of February 2009, said Philip J. Marzetti, the firm's Atlanta managing partner.
More excerpts and discussion, after the jump.
Atlanta associates often bemoan their financial fate. But the glass may be half-full:
Big firm associate pay has skyrocketed in Atlanta over the past two years -- from a starting salary of $100,000 at the end of 2005 to $115,000 in 2006 and then, after two raises in 2007, to $145,000....Before Paul Hastings's announcement to its associates Wednesday, Atlanta first-year pay had already increased 45 percent in two years. The firm's decision to further increase first-year pay comes as the economy slows and local in-house counsel are expressing concern over higher rates for junior associates.
Will the PH raise have a ripple effect? Some are not so sure:
Several Atlanta recruiters doubted Paul Hastings' local competitors would be willing to match the firm's pay gambit."Considering the economy and that associates are being laid off in the mortgage-backed securities business, it's unlikely that other firms in town will raise again. There have already been three raises in two years," said [Rafaelle Murdocca of BCG Attorney Search].
Paul Hastings' raises may separate the firm from the pack, but they won't be good for the local market, said legal recruiter Raj M. Nichani, vice president of Hughes & Sloan. "If this trickles down and King & Spalding and the other big boys try and go to $160,000, it will throw the market for a loop."
"Who is going to pay for it?" he said....
Paul Hastings has 56 associates here. King & Spalding has 175, and Alston & Bird has 196. Neither firm responded to requests for comment on the move by press time....
[David] Gruskin [said] that Paul Hastings is making a "strong statement." "This move certainly has folks like us in the industry talking about Paul Hastings," he said.
These are just excerpts. Read the whole thing over here.
We know how ATL readers love to talk about ATL. The recent Paul Hastings post generated 250+ comments. If that comment clusterf**k hasn't satisfied you, sound off in the comments to this post.
Paul Hastings Leapfrogs Pack With Pay Hike for Atlanta Associates [Fulton County Daily Report via Law.com]
Earlier: Nationwide Pay Raise Watch: Paul Hastings to $160K in Atlanta
(99) Comments
First!
first
First.
And here I thought all of the talk about firms "distinguishing themselves" in a down market was just BS that would-be associates cooked up to justify their unrealistic expectations of uninterrupted pay raises...
Paul Hasting to 1 Billion!
This seems like the perfect opportunity to just go ahead and make compensation at all offices of firms like K&S and A&B the same across the board and stop all of this constant adjusting to match local markets. Just set all your offices at $160k with a national bonus system and be done with it. Then do the same thing with your rates.
The article seems to be a bit misleading by implying that the K&S bonus system is "richer" than Paul Hastings' Atlanta bonus system. The posts here indicate Paul Hastings bonuses are superior to those of K&S (even after K&S upped the ante).
No chance in hell A&B or K&S match...partners as always are too cheap and way too greedy!
K&S or A&B might not match now, but I bet they will move again by the end of 2009 whereas if PH hadn't done this it might have been 4 - 6 years before another raise came along.
Lat, get over to TMZ for the Maxim-reading lawyer story, please. Enough about frigging Atlanta.
K&S partners are retreating down in Naples this weekend, and I doubt associate pay raises are on the agenda. Lighting cigars with $100 bills, though, is on the schedule.
who gives a shit about the atl market? Really.
What about POWELL GOLDSTEIN????????????
1:12 - people now making Atlanta scale in NYC, that' s who.
The PH associates have been swindled! $160k is just enough to phase them all out of the coming fiscal stimulus payments! K&S, on the other hand, shrewdly kept salaries at levels that would not deprive its associates of the right to suckle at the federal government's teets. It takes a village, people! Or at least some Village People.
When I first hire Powell Goldtsein, they strong on plow. Now, they vagines hang like sleeve of wizard.
Yeah--what the heck is going on at Powell Goldstein, Lat? I've heard rumors from their associates of turmoil...?
PoGo is going down the shitter. I'll bet every recruiter in town has 15-20 PoGo associate resumes on his/her desk (and god knows how many partner resumes).
why wouldn't that article mention the crazy compression???
Sutherland already has that 5th year scale.
and, yes, more POGO stories, please.
S&C going 185K cob today.
PoGo is going down the shitter. I'll bet every recruiter in Atlanta has at least 15-20 PoGo associate resumes on his/her desk (and God knows how many partner resumes).
PoGo is going down the shitter. I'll bet every recruiter in Atlanta has at least 15-20 PoGo associate resumes on his/her desk (and God knows how many partner resumes).
My friend at PoGo is leaving. Why?
Let me get this strait, Womble Carlyle turns down a merger with PoGo because PoGo isn't profitable enough, yet Womble still pays $130k in Atlanta, while PoGo pays $145k. Yea, that make sense.
Womble needs to step up to the big kids table or go back to tobacco fields.
Atlanta is a secondary market, even (or particularly) when compared to Charlotte.
Everyone has been down playing NYC to $190k because of the economy and CWT layoffs. But firms around the country are still raising! If Atlanta can go to $160k, there is still hope for NYC (at least for the top tier).
Wait, Womble didn't raise to $145 on 1/1? What gives?
3rd tier, meet Womble Carlyle...
Wait, Womble didn't raise to $145 on 1/1? What gives?
3rd tier, meet Womble Carlyle...
1:33: where'd you get the info on that?
Paul Hastings sucks. I'm surprised that they're even still around. Didn't they close an office recently?
With the K&S partners all in one place this weekend, it is the perfect time for them to go ahead and get this raise out of the way! Come on, K&S to $160k!!!!
Making a move to 190K right now would certainly be ballsy...
Wow, Jones Day pays $150k in ATL - shocking - they are below market in yet another city!!!
pogo is still paying 130 in atlanta if I remember correctly- they didn't raise with teh big boys and their recruiting showed it. at least this way they won't have to no-offer many summers though.
With one of the busiest airports in the country (Hartsfield), Forture 100 companies (eg, Coca-Cola), top salaries, and the hot Buckhead area, its easy to understand why Atlanta is consistently among CNN's top 3 cities for young professionals.
Btw, when was the last time NY, DC or Chicago was host to a major world event like the 1996 Olympic Summer Games??
Only a matter of time before K&S, the true Kings of Atlanta, matches to 160K or perhaps even raises to 170K....
yes, remarkable that CNN would rate Atlanta highly. . .
is something going on at PoGo? I hadn't heard.
Anyone think big players may announce salary raises January 31st?
Womble turned down the merger with PoGo because it didn't want to shift its focus from the Carolinas to ATL. It decided to remain a major player in the the Carolinas instead of a mid-tier firm in Atlanta. The decision had nothing to do with PoGo's financials. And that's coming from a Womble partner on the merger committee.
OMG the 1996 Olympics?????
LILLEHAMMER TO 190!!!!
2:16, that's funny. Southerners are nothing, if not polite. Besides, I'm sure they're bound by confidentiality. No one would say, "yeah, Pogo is a bankrupt hell hole and we just found out" in diligence.
It's like being fired -- do they ever say it was for performance? No, it's always a "fit" thing.
Atlanta a secondary market compared to Charlotte? Umm, what?
ATL probably has 5X the number of lawyers in Charlotte.
Charlotte has a few warmed up second-tier firms to do some leftover banking work that isn't worth hiring an NY firm for. ATL has a great general corporate environment.
1:49 - Paul Hastings did recently close an office, but it was the Samford, CT office and everyone there was integrated into the NY office (or at least offered a position in the NY office). As far as I am aware, the closing of this office had nothing to do with lack of business.
Womble was always 3rd tier in Atlanta--PoGo may have pushed them to the 2nd tier. They are 2nd tier in Charlotte, but don't even register there in capital markets (what really makes a Charlotte firm). They are 1st tier in the "Triad", but 1st and falling in the "Triangle" (no summer program, no appreciable growth). They don't even register in DC. Don't expect a salary move from Womble.
Womble was always 3rd tier in Atlanta--PoGo may have pushed them to the 2nd tier. They are 2nd tier in Charlotte, but don't even register there in capital markets (what really makes a Charlotte firm). They are 1st tier in the "Triad", but 1st and falling in the "Triangle" (no summer program, no appreciable growth). They don't even register in DC. Don't expect a salary move from Womble.
Womble turned down the merger with PoGo because it didn't want to shift its focus from the Carolinas to ATL. It decided to remain a major player in the the Carolinas instead of a mid-tier firm in Atlanta. The decision had nothing to do with PoGo's financials. And that's coming from a Womble partner on the merger committee.
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If this made the least bit of sense, then Womble would close its Atlanta office now, which is not even mid-tier, and increase its focus on the Carolinas. The notion that Womble would remain here but not want to grow in Atlanta is just laughably stupid.
Bottom line is Womble saw Pogo circling the drain and flushed that toliet rather than hopping into it.
Who are you Cumberland 3L?
Bradley Arant to 160K!
2:42:
Some Womble partners want to grow the Atlanta office, and some do not. Some partners are perfectly happy for the firm to remain focused on the Triad, and those partners won out in the PoGo discussions.
2:42:
Some Womble partners want to grow the Atlanta office, and some do not. Some partners are perfectly happy for the firm to remain focused on the Triad, and those partners won out in the PoGo discussions.
What is the Sullcrom to 185 info based on?
I don't have a dog in this PoGo-Womble fight, but I'm just wondering on what are people basing their claims that PoGo is in serious trouble? I saw that some partners left the DC office earlier this month, but in my experience, there's always an exodus from big firms in January due to the structure of the partnership agreements.
Just curious if someone has some insight re PoGo other than just repeating what others have said around here. any Pogo people here?
2:55 - It's based on a steaming pile of bullshit.
So I guess, 2:49, that Womble is instituting a hiring freeze in Atlanta, and refusing new business there was well, because otherwise, they'd -- gasp --GROW in Atlanta?
Look, I don't doubt that a Womble partner may have told you they turned Pogo down to focus on Greensboro. But
choosing to believe this "it's not you it's me routine" is just as foolish in this instance as it would be in any other.
The firms undoubtedly signed confidentiality agreements that would prevent discussing one another's financials with outsiders. Hence, they're spewing bullshit.
The "old guard" Womble partners in Atlanta didn't want to become the minority if the PoGo acquisition happened. Plain and simple. The Womble NC base WANTS to grow in Atlanta. The Womble Atlanta partners enjoy laughing all the way to the bank with their "big firm" draws from their mid-size practices. PoGo's iffy financials merely gave them a convenient excuse to kill the deal.
Word.
3:03:
Why do you assume I'm an "outsider"?
haha 3:02. :)
Please excuse me asking, but for those of us unfamiliar, what is "PoGo"?
PoGo = Powell Goldstein, an Atlanta based firm with offices in DC, Charlotte and Dallas
The "old guard" Womble partners in Atlanta didn't want to become the minority if the PoGo acquisition happened. Plain and simple. The Womble NC base WANTS to grow in Atlanta. The Womble Atlanta partners enjoy laughing all the way to the bank with their "big firm" draws from their mid-size practices. PoGo's iffy financials merely gave them a convenient excuse to kill the deal.
======================
So now your story (assuming the same person) is completely changed -- Womble does want to grow in Atlanta, but certain Atlanta partners scotched the deal b/c they don't to rock their personal boats. And "iffy" financials are an excuse not to do a merger? Beyond the mindreading necessary to make that statement, it's just wrong: iffy financial would be the no. 1 reason not to merge. Not to mention it's completely inconsistent with the earlier statement that financials had nothing to do with it.
Ex-PoGo perspective: too much of the firm's business has historically been middle market, i.e., clients on the smaller end of big firm client rosters. Trying to grow and compete financially with K&S and A&B, and other firms (like Kilpatrick, MLA, Sutherland) PoGo has explored mergers and paying out the nose for laterals with blue chip portables, but (1) they are not in a position to be the dominant player in a merger, and (2) growth through laterals is risky, expensive, and slow. So they tried to improve their PPP numbers by de-equitizing or pushing out a large number of lawyers over the last few years; they also made some poor choices (i.e., hiring Lin Wood, which directly led to the exodus of the health care group); and the process has resulted in significant loss of confidence by other lawyers who realized they take their business elsewhere and do better. Hence the death spiral.
3:13:
I like how you are criticizing someone for "mindreading" when you are doing the same thing.
You have no idea why the Womble-PoGo merger fell apart, and neither does anyone else here. So stop acting like you have some inside knowledge, you snide little twit.
Pogo also did not give offers to almost half of their summer class this past summer. Considering that most firms in Atlanta give offers to all summers, it was a strange move.
You have no idea why the Womble-PoGo merger fell apart, and neither does anyone else here. So stop acting like you have some inside knowledge, you snide little twit.
====================
Dipshit, that Pogo's financials are bad and that they have not grown in years (and are shrinking at the moment) is pretty much common knowledge. Their PPP numbers are public. Their headcount is public. The string of departures in DC, public. The departure of their crown jewel healthcare practice, public. And a lengthy article saying they are struggling and their backs are against the wall was just published in a national freaking industry magazine.
So, what inside knowledge did I claim to have? None. I am disputing the assertion that, despite all this public knowledge, Womble walked away for the absurd reason that they did not want to grow in Atlanta. It makes zero sense. And in fact the person who claimed that has now pretty much backed off it.
3:30:
I posted the 2:49 comment re PoGo/Womble, but not the 3:04 comment. I'd think that you would know that, being an omniscient mindreader and all.
3:30 - pretty much all of those things that you mention were common knowledge when Womble approached PoGo last year regarding a merger. The fact that Womble knew all of those things, approached PoGo, and then backed off in January suggests that something other than the publicly known information caused the deal to fall apart.
Pogo also did not give offers to almost half of their summer class this past summer. Considering that most firms in Atlanta give offers to all summers, it was a strange move.
3:29 - you have been misinformed. PoGo gave offers to 17 out of 21 SAs this past summer.
3:30 - pretty much all of those things that you mention were common knowledge when Womble approached PoGo last year regarding a merger. The fact that Womble knew all of those things, approached PoGo, and then backed off in January suggests that something other than the publicly known information caused the deal to fall apart.
==================
No, the DC departures are all since Jan. 1, and they're major. Plus, there were major Atlanta healthcare departures late in 07, probably after they started talking. The really bad press came out after Jan. 1. And finally, Pogo would not have had 2007 year-end financial before Jan 1, obviously.
3:29 - I second the misinformation. PoGo DID give out offers to 17 out of 21 SA's. Also, PoGo is at $145k. I believe they got 1 rejection - not a bad percentage.
Womble means nothing outside of NC. They are partner heavy, don't pay competitive salaries, and expect too much from their associates (at least for the compensation they provide).
Womble was moving at the pace of a sloth in the merger discussions, so PoGo killed the deal. Too many good ole' boy NC partners were dragging their feet and failing to realize that Winston-Salem means nothing nowadays (that is, with tobacco business dwindling).
what about the NJ market, when will the move to 160 trickle down to the land of the Boss?
160 in Atlanta is equal to 216 in NJ. Why is the northeast so cheap given that it is soo expensive?
NYC and Boston are not the only expensive places to live. Where is the love for jersey?
Here's some love NJ...you can have our sewage.
Who gives a flying f**k about some firm that sounds like a ride at a circus? PoGo? Womble? Shut the &$%^* up about them. Nobody cares about whether they merged or didn't merge or want to merge or if they just go away all together. We are here only to discuss ways to move K&S and A&B towards establishing $160k scales in Atlanta!!!
Why are the K&S and A&B posters always so angry? Oh that's right, they work in sweatshops and their lives suck.
4:23, that's right. All we have to look forward to are raises and bonuses, so stop all the other meaningless jibber jabber and figure out how we can get them to move to $160k!
One of them has to move before anyone else will do it.
Does K&S stand for King&Spalding or Kilpatrick Stockton? Oh, wait, no one cares...neither is at $160k.
4:23, that's right. All we have to look forward to are raises and bonuses, so stop all the other meaningless jibber jabber and figure out how we can get them to move to $160k!
One of them has to move before anyone else will do it.
Who gives a flying f**k about some firm that sounds like a ride at a circus? PoGo? Womble? Shut the &$%^* up about them. Nobody cares about whether they merged or didn't merge or want to merge or if they just go away all together. We are here only to discuss ways to move K&S and A&B towards establishing $160k scales in Atlanta!!!
my life is awesome.
The best part of the Womble-PoGo merger would have been the name of the new firm, "Wombat Gold," with a picture of a Wombat on the Firm's letterhead.
Wombats >>> Winston
the ex-pogo perspective above is pretty much dead-on. management adopted a sorely needed "trim the fat" strategy to boost PPP and in turn attract lateral partners, but in doing so they unintentionally cut some bone too. not much fat left there anymore so this becomes a make-or-break year for them.
King and Spalding should be embarrassed if they do not go up to 160K. They work their associates harder than anyone in town and yet they are not market leaders in pay. If I was a K&S associate, I'd be looking to lateral to Paul Hastings as soon as I got my resume prepared to do so.
"It's like shooting wombats back in beggars' canyon."
Cumberland 3L, you have no idea. If the firm bills a first-year out at $300/hour, why shouldn't a first-year make $160k? More importantly, if you want the ability to bill out a fourth-year at $460/hour, the firm needs to pay that first-year enough to want to stay until s/he is a fourth-year.
Mine is, too.
I heard Womble has some cute Mging Ptners. ! Or is it hiring partners?
I heard Pogo has hot hiring partners. maybe they are at PH - wait who cares, they are paying top dollar
Cumberland 3L, if your "suffering" people had marketable skills, then they wouldn't be suffering. It's not my fault that I'm smarter, harder working, and better educated than them. I chose to invest in a high paying career, worked hard, and now I get my reward.
By your logic, even the people "suffering" and losing their homes should be making less money because they live extravagantly compared to the starving Africans.
Don't worry, though, you won't have deal with the guilt of making 160K; you go to Cumberland.
"It's not my fault that I'm smarter, harder working, and better educated than them."
Ah hem. It's not your fault that you're smarter, harder working, and better educated than *they*.
omg, 9:14, you're such a tool. Did you get a raging clue when you spotted my mistake?
Edit: I meant 9:17. Try not to blow your load!
If you're going to call yourself smarter than the proletariat (note how I'm putting on airs? I can do it, too) like you're some kind of genius gift to humanity, you should avoid making stupid grammatical mistakes in doing so. Just sayin'.
Is Cumberland accredited?
Cumberland 3L is not an actual Cumberland student, but rather someone looking to post stupid comments and enhance them with (whate he/she believes to be) a clever moniker. No one believes billing 1800 hrs/yr is "crazy". And not even a Cumberland student is stupid enough to make the "it's just not fair" argument.
omg, "Cumberland 3L" at 3:19, you're hilarious!
you're all idiots.