The Summer Associate Recruiting Sweepstakes: Winners and Losers (continued)
Here's an update to last week's post about how various law firms fared in recruiting summer associates for this year. That post, including the comments, featured oodles of info about the expected summer class sizes at different Biglaw shops.
Now we bring you a few more data points. First, just a few short hours after our post went up, this email went around the New York office of Latham & Watkins:
As we move forward into 2008, the Recruiting Committee and the Recruiting Department would like to thank each of you for your support and participation in last year’s recruiting efforts. Your involvement in the summer program and our fall recruiting efforts was “priceless”. Thanks to your efforts, our summer program and fall hiring results were incredibly successful. The recruiting efforts resulted in 61 first years (not including judicial clerks, which we are currently in the midst of recruiting) starting next fall and a summer class of 80 summer associates (our largest to date!). Thank you all again and a very happy and healthy 2008 to each of you.
It's nice when firms are so responsive to our inquiries.
In addition, a few tipsters emailed us unofficial information about how their firms did in the recruiting process. Check it out, after the jump.
Please note that these pieces of information, unlike the Latham & Watkins info, were received through informal channels. We have not confirmed them with the firms in question. Caveat lector.
1. Fish & Richardson (San Diego):
After announcing one week before the NALP deadline for 2L acceptances that it was instituting a pay cut, my office of Fish & Richardson didn't get any more candidates to accept beyond those who had already accepted -- we had several offers outstanding. But maybe the joke is on the people who declined because the pay cut has since been rescinded and now all those 2Ls are stuck at firms that aren't as good at patent litigation and who aren't nearly as enjoyable to work at.
I just received an invitation to a hockey game vs. Skadden (yes, seriously) from the head of recruiting, and the recipient list is open. I’m assuming that it’s sent to the entire summer class. There are 98 recipients (excluding recipients who have “@proskauer.com email addresses”). Hope this helps.As a quick addendum, I’m not sure whether this list was sent to all Proskauer summers in all offices or just NY, but if I had to guess, I’d say it is the former since, according to lawfirmaddict.com, Proskauer only had 50 in their NY office in ’06.
Update:
The reason there were 91 recipients is that they included last years summers on the email as well. So I’m guessing that it was only to the NY office. However, on the plus side, Gary Bettman is coming to the game! Not like he has a professional sports league to drive into the ground or anything.
3. Skadden Arps (Chicago)
Skadden Chicago apparently gave out the same number of offers as last year, but had way too many people accept. Last years class was 29, this year's class looks like (from the email addresses listed) to be 54. They traditionally give out offers to all summers, but what is going to happen now with the economy tanking and the recent layoffs of other large firms?
4. White & Case (New York)
I have heard from a number of informal sources that White & Case’s class will be over 100 next summer. This increase is reputed to be in part due to an unexpectedly high yield. (I think last year, the summer class was about sixty.)
5. Wiley Rein (Washington, DC)
We mentioned in our original post that Wiley is oversubscribed. We didn't know quite how oversubscribed:
Wiley Rein is so oversubscribed that they called their offerees who had not accepted yet and told them it’s probably best not to. They said that summers weren’t going to get a lot of personal attention and not everyone would get an offer at the end of the summer. They called me three times over the course of a week and a half. I have a friend who they called and told her it was going to be super-competitive over the summer just to get an offer and she was better off at another firm.
Earlier: The Summer Associate Recruiting Sweepstakes: Open Thread on Winners and Losers
(99) Comments
Looks like the salary + bonus differential worked to Skadden's advantage in Chicago. Was the same way in Skadden's L.A. office for the summers of 2006 and 2007. As far as I know, everyone was given offers. I would expect the same in Chicago, unless Skadden itself begins laying off associates (doubtful).
ny to 190
who fukcing cares about summer associate positions.
Any word on Schulte?
Ropes, Boston?
"Looks like the salary + bonus differential worked to Skadden's advantage in Chicago."
You consider getting too many acceptances to be "to Skadden's advantage"? More likely, what happened was that other firms gave less offers because the market is in the tank. Skadden, being oblivious, gave the same # of offers that it always does. This resulted in an unreasonably large summer class that they are going to have trouble hiring for 2009.
Wiley, shame on you!
1:54: 62 at Schulte Roth, up from 48 last year
Bears noting that the Skadden/Proskauer hockey game is to benefit the youth charity, Ice Hockey in Harlem.
I heard from inside sources that Arnold & Porter in DC has over 60 summers who accepted.
"Advantage" may not be the right word, but they all will be hired (absent a stupid, social f-up, which happens every so often), as the large classes were hired in L.A. The point is that the salary differential between NY firms' non-NY offices and home grown firms is having an effect on recruiting. If this continues, Skadden (and other NY firms) can reduce their offer numbers, obtain the yield they want, and focus on recruiting only the best of the best. A win for NY firms, in my opinion.
Davis Polk in NYC hired 113 summer associates.
2:08 - TITCR. Skadden Chicago may indeed face the same problems Sidley Chicago had last year with a larger than expected summer class, especially given the direction the economy is headed.
HA...glad I summered last summer when things didn't look so grim. Well, off to watch "Reefer Madness" with Karl Rove
2:16, 1:54
I thought Schulte had over 50 SA in 2007 and that the 48 referred to 2006
QUIT WITH THAT CHICK...She is doable but we can do better!! Look at her tum-tum...pillsbury doughboy
Are we thinking that firms that hired lots of summer associates and traditionally gave offers to all may not do it this year?
How much will that affect the atmosphere in the summer?
any cwt numbers?
PH NY?
NLJ says more hiring this summer! In yo face!
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1200418105319
Didn't you say in an earlier story that Mayer Brown was (surprisingly) number 1? How many number 1's are there?
2L-I would think that is a real possibility. It will make the summer a lot less congenial especially if you know you are in a competition for a job. You might even have to some work and prove yourself.
any cwt numbers?
Once Latham screw associates on bonuses, then the Acceptance percentage will quickly decline
is checking allowed in that skadden - proskauer game? I'd love to cross-check some of the d-bags at both places.
Didn't you say in an earlier story that Mayer Brown was (surprisingly) number 1? How many number 1's are there?
~47 summers for CWT NY.
Looks like NLJ beat ATL to the sccop about summer's at west coast firms. See 2:36's post
There are rumors flying around Fried Frank about significant layoffs coming as early as this week....
rumors about stroock & stroock, too (heard second-hand from a recruiter)
How many summers does WLRK take each summer??
Shearman and Sterling:
144 Summers firmwide, so probably 100+ in nyc. this is a jump over previous years.
cravath???
Mayer Brown is subpar
Cravath is gonna have, like, 378 summer associates.
i wouldn't worry about the big boys not giving out offers even if they overhired. Think what horrible things we would all say about them on ATL if they don't. Right in time for OCI next fall.
Most attractive class from our school is heading to Schulte.
Will Wiley's issues have any impact on a law clerk who wants to apply there?
paranoid law students: biglaw will continue to hire all summers (absent you shooting yourself in the foot by drunkly insulting partner's wife, physically threatening other associates, jumping off the chelsea piers, etc., though even then you may still get an offer). go freaking out over something else.
"go freaking out"
you are a freaking idiot.
(but you are right)
layoffs at Fried frank this week? tell me more . . .
WilmerHale DC has 51 students, close to last year's 47. This is after they cut down from 70+ and it looks like the firm is staying with it's stated desire to keep around 50 students. Unsurprisingly, students from HYS with a good contingent from NYU and UVA, and pretty much one from each other T14. None from Penn.
way to use apostrophes, self.
The other reasons that big firms that can afford to keep summers wont not-offer them, is that by the time they start working its more than a year and a half away. Plus the best firms wont have as much of a drop in business anyway, as they used to be turning business away previously, they will simply be able to accept more work that they would have turned down (although it might be more boring work). I.E. lesser deals might be done by Wachtell that might have gone to Cravath or Sullivan. On the other hand, big firms like Weil might have more business with Bankruptcy - and it appears already that Sullivan is doing tons of bank work as all these banks sell off parts of themselves to other countrys. Finally, there is no reason to not-offer summer associates from a partner's perspective, because they dont cost as much as the mid level associates. I would be more worried if I were a 7th or 8th year associate -they might not make partner, and they might not be allowed to stay as a counsel either.
Seyfarth Boston -- Wanted 4, got 6. Small office.
how will this and the market affect 3l hiring?
That's because the people they sent to Penn were pretty horrible. No personality whatsoever. They gave out a fair number of offers, but everyone chose to go elsewhere.
That's because the people they met at Penn were pretty horrible. No personality whatsoever.
QE?
4:04
Have you heard anything? I have not. Thanks.
Oh boo hoo Penn2L. I'm weeping that I won't get to bask in the brilliance of you or your classmates. Plenty of people turn down good firms, why make a big deal out of it?
Debevoise?
How can full time offers to 2L summers not go down this year? The firms will have no choice but to not hire some of their summers.
Look at Wiley -- they were clearly concerned about this. In this economy, even the big firms will take a hit, and will be forced to cut back on full time associates.
I'm not happy about this, but it is reality.
Good for Wiley. They don't want the super competitive environment and they were honest with potential summers about the type of environment they would be walking into if they accepted. How many firms would call up the summers who hadn't accepted and tell them they would better of elsewhere instead of letting them all fight it out and just give offers to their favorites?
RE: 5:10 -http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1200418105319
Because the economic state of October 2009, or January 2010 are highly speculative. There is no reason to no offer if there is a good chance the economy bounces back or litigation hits its stride.
I would imagine more offers to litigation and bankruptcy as opposed to M&A or Global Finance, but the attorneys I have spoken with have suggested looking to more stable practice areas if a student is looking for an offer.
Hockey is for canadians.
We'll see what the numbers look like but by all accounts Cravath had really stepped up their intent to recruit and, despite the economic slowdown, did not scale back their efforts either. We will see what their yield will be but they upped the number of callbacks in their offices by something like 20-30% per day, doubling up lunches and doing shorter callbacks in general. (Obviously Cravath is well known for those all-day call-backs but the anecdotal report is that people were out of there much earlier this year, having met with fewer partners.)
Rumor ahs it that Kirkland hired 120 Summer assholes
kirkland chicago?
any word on whether sidleys drop in numbers is due to fewer offers made or fewer offers accepted?
ive heard the former- in an effort to stem the dried up corporate work- but im curious.
i never even heard anyone really talk about wilmer hale at all here at penn. i know people who interviewed there and just had better and/or more desirable options.
but keep in mind penn is a small class. were only 240 students, and even fewer of us are going for firm jobs. so that easily explains why there are so few penn kids at various firms compared to H, C and NYU.
(does not explain why all these penn kids are going to shearman, weil, sullivan and cravath tho...)
any info on Paul Hastings in NY? what about Willkie? dont know anyone going there in my t5.
what is up w/ Cravath giving out all of those 2L summer offers? They usually bat 100%--does anyone think they might not do so this year?
if firms are overhiring now, does that mean layoffs at some point? if there just isn't enough work to trickle down, won't they have to cut people eventually?
To 7:07: Yes and yes!
I really feel bad for this batch of 2L summers. You're just a tad late to the party...
To 7:07: Yes and yes!
I really feel bad for this batch of 2L summers. You're just a tad late to the party...
to 7:29: I don't feel bad for the summers, I feel bad for the more costly midlevels. Firms will want the cheap labor to keep flowing in.
All this talk about the current 2L's and offers after the summer is a bit premature, in my opinion. No one knows what the economy is going to be like in late-summer, much less what it is going to be like in fall 2009 when those summers would actually start working. Anyone who says that firms are "definitely" going to cut offers, or keep them at the same level, or whatever is just guessing. No one knows.
my concern is that things are already so slow and it seems like firms have already overhired with their existing junior level classes. I have no idea how we're going to absorb these future classes.
simpson thacher?
Hockey is for Canadians, but since a lot of us got jobs last year in NYC, I think the hockey game is an appropriate place to start colonizing the US (all possible thanks to that new 'bargain' greenback!)
No offense Penn 2L, but there are very few (maybe 2) better options in DC. Stanford and Yale each saw it fit to send 4 students and each have a smaller class, so I don't think your argument holds. I'd be surprised if more than 4 or 5 students got offers and if they chose W&C or Covington, that's fine. The idea that Penn is too good for the #2 or #3 firm in the most competitive market is insane.
Any firm in the V10 that has a balanced practice (strong litigation and corporate) should fare just fine. Some better than others. My guess on the ones that will still "bat 1.000" on offers is the following:
1. Wachtell (always enough premium work to go around, and would rather give sub-100% bonuses than cut offers down)
2. DPW (very strong litigation/bankruptcy practices and less exposure to private equity and focused in recruiting efforts almost exclusively on top schools, unlikely to risk losing its cachet)
3. S&C (similar to DPW on most points, perhaps more willing to spread the love to non-top-tier schools but likely more sensitive to reputation)
4. Cravath (strong litigation and likely not willing to risk losing status just below Wachtell to DPW or S&C)
5. Paul Weiss (border V10 but with stellar litigation practice likely to pick up plenty of business from subprime)
Worst positioned (just speculating out loud):
1. STB (very large private equity practice and M&A practice, not as strong in bankruptcy)
2. LW (perhaps overextended in push to NYC, relatively weaker litigation and bankruptcy practices and less sensitive to perceptions of law students since probably not drawing from same pool)
Simpson has around 110 going to NYC.
9:08 - Get back to studying. I'm sure you have some reading for corporations to finish up by tomorrow.
Fish & Richardson enjoyable to work at? LOL - at least for the San Diego office.
Other WH (if recruiting actually sent two people here): Correct decision or not, more than a few turned down WH for other DC firms that were not W&C or Cov. Everyone says WH sucks after the merger and is now a securities lit sweat shop that everyone hates. People were higher on places like LW, A&P, HH, etc. Not saying that its the right move, since law students dont know anything, but it is the perception. Also, settle down, I'm sure the firm will survive.
Bitter much Penn? I'm not a DC person, but I can spot someone who didn't get a callback a mile away. I don't care whether or not Wilmer's star is rising or falling, but either way, not having Penn students can only help.
7:01, Cravath doesn't bat 100% in summer offers. At HLS alone they bat under 50% offers to acceptances.
no idea if the previous penn poster got a WilmerHale callback or not, but hes right- i know many penn students who chose all sorts of firms over Wilmer, and not just Covington and A&P (though I think we have a really big number going A&P)
oh and penn is amazing.
SLS 3L, I did in fact get a callback AND an offer, but just happened to like a few other places better, mostly in terms of the type of work they did. As I said, I concede law students know very little about firms so I'm not saying the sky is falling at WH. My point was that it is, after the merger, perceived as somewhere to avoid. True or not, people at schools other than PENN would confirm this reputation.
I'm just laughing that Penn students make it seem like their absence from a firm's recruiting class is a bad mark on the firm. I have friends at and going to WilmerHale who I respect and I have a hard time believing that their missing out because you didn't like "the work" that you would be doing for them. I probably have friends at whatever firm you chose and you're probably going to realize what a smart student looks like when you meet them.
Has Penn's move to #6 in the US News rankings sparked a proliferation of Penn trolls? It's a good school with good students, but the rest of the world does not wait with baited breath to find out where they are summering. Please get over yourselves.
1:19: I didnt meant to say that anyone waits with baited breath to find out where any law student is summering. We were just talking about trends in where students are summering, in a post about where students are summering, so I dont think it is that out of line. Thanks for saying Penn is a good school though. Im just glad when people know I dont go to Penn State.
SLS 3L: Wait, o man, so there are going to be Stanford students at my firm????? You are right...Ill be able to spot those amazing Stanford students the minute I get to the firm. They will roll into the office like greek gods with their golden California tans and brains so big they could go toe-to-toe with a room full of senior partners. They will lunch with the likes of Scalia and Roberts, who will wish that they too could have attended Stanford. Instead of doing doc review with the other first years, they will be fighting it out in court with Ted Olson and Carter Stewart. Meanwhile, the lowly Penn students (and students from lower ranked schools) will be locked in the basement of the firm doing doc review (for which they will get no bonus). Thanks for letting me know now dude-Im just going to go move to Toledo and do insurance defense work.
umm ... is it just me, or doesn't anyone realize that the original post on Wilmer Hale (from a non-Penn student) simply stated that they had many T14 students, but none from Penn.
Then a Penn student attempted to explain why that was (that the particular interviewers were crap), and another Penn student said that for a variety of reasons people chose other firms
... whats wrong with that? How does any of that show arrogance? It seems like SLS is just being hostile and making fun of the Penn students who said nothing of significance. Penn 2L didn't just come out of nowhere and say why WH had no Penn students, someone else pointed out that it was the only T14 school without a WH presence, begging the question: why?
The woman in this pic is still a little fat in the tum-tum. Maybe she should spend less time eating with the 500-lb cop.
Morgan Lewis Philly has 16 SAs for 2008, down from 30 in 2007, which was a significant bump from the 23 in 2006.
Wilmer apparently decided to dig into the 4th tier for its summers in 2008
Should 2L summers that got lower grades in their 2nd year be worried about getting no-offered?
To 5:22:
Yes, you should be very worried if your grades dropped. The firms will ask for your transcripts, and if they see a drop, they will not make you an offer.
firms ask for your transcripts but they don't no-offer you simply because your grades dropped. poor grades and a poor performance this summer, however, might land you a no-offer.
Anyone know the number of Kaye Scholer summer associates?
Holland + Knight DC 10 SA. 7 last year
White and Case hired 115 summers this year? What were they thinking? There is no way that we will all get offers in this economy....
H+K did not extend offers to 2 SA's last year. Could be the reason why they are hiring 3 more than usual. They generally try to keep their summer classes small.
To 1:34 --> yes they will. they don't plan on changing from the 100% yield unless someone really screws up.
To 9:44 --> They may fully intend to make everyone offers, but, when the bottom falls out from the U.S. [and then global] economy, they will be forced to make the tough decisions.
What is it with everyone loving to work at Fish?
I was there last summer, and I thought it was fine, but I gotta say, i NEVER thought morale would be so good at a law firm. I worked at a corporation that traditionally treats its employees very well (think Google/Microsoft) and let me tell you, the people at Fish were happier than the people at Google. Its definitely not a mistake that they are rated the #1 firm for satisfaction. Any more and they would be a cult.
I can't say specifically for the san diego office (as one person has hinted that the san diego office wasn't fun to work at) but I do know a couple people there and they seem to have drank the firm Kool Aid too. Its really rare when someone leaves Fish (in my office, only one or two people have left in IP area in the last three years). It seems to me that the people in corporate are not as happy......