Time for Winston Women To Go Burqa Shopping?
Although many tipsters emailed us about it, we never wrote about this buzz-generating Wall Street Journal article, reporting on how many older lawyers are displeased by the overly informal, even sloppy attire of their younger colleagues. We didn’t write about it earlier because we felt preempted: the piece received lots of online attention, from such widely read outlets as the ABA Journal and the WSJ Law Blog, where it generated heavy comment traffic.
But now we have a new angle on it. Focus on these portions of Christina Binkley’s WSJ article:
[Winston & Strawn D.C. managing partner Thomas Mills] says he is partial to well-fitted Brioni suits for himself. He notes that the going rate for new associates in New York, Los Angeles and Washington is $160,000 a year — enough to buy suits while paying down school loans. Yet all too often, associates show up at work in jeans — attire that he doesn’t condone “unless it’s moving day.”Winston & Strawn brought in a personal shopper from a local department store last year to address associates on how to shop and dress for work. Mr. Mills says that when some associates do make an effort to dress up, they seem to base their look on Hollywood. “You get the TV-woman lawyer look with skirts 12 inches above the knee and very tight blouses,” he says. “They have trouble sitting and getting into taxis.”
These remarks apparently didn’t go over too well back at Winston:
W&S DC office’s managing partner comes off as a total a**. His comments re: his custom suits are one thing. But his comments re: the way women in the office dress have created a stir….People are seriously pissed, particularly the women. Man comes off as a total pig…. Read the article, you’ll see why.
This is prime ATL material. Firm has called impromptu associates meeting for 9:30 Monday, no topic given. But the guess is it is damage control.
The guess was correct. More about the meeting, after the jump.
One reader of the piece was surprised by Tom Mills’s quotes:
surprised you didn’t have anything on this. what about the cadwalader girl getting quoted as saying it’s “hard” to put on a suit, or cadwalader and winston/strawn coming off sounding like such hardasses - I know cadwalader doesn’t care about recruiting (see, e.g., layoffs), but do winston strawn and manatt phelps really want to come off sounding so uncool?(also, what about the partner at manatt admitting she gave an assignment to a less qualified associate because she thought he was prettier?!)
Okay, so back to Winston & Strawn. On the Monday morning after the article appeared, the firm’s Washington office held a meeting about the kerfuffle:
On Monday morning, a meeting was held at which managing partner Tom Mills [pictured] apologized to all the associates. He said his remarks were taken out of context. He asked for a show of hands as to who was offended by his remarks — and a number of female associates actually raised their hands.Mills explained that he wasn’t referring to Winston associates (who can NEVER wear jeans). He was merely saying that lawyers need to dress in a manner that clients will view as appropriate.
From a more supportive source:
At the meeting, Mills apologized for what was said, explained that he was taken out of context by the reporter, and emphasized that he was absolutely not referring to any Winston attorneys in his quotes.For what it’s worth, I believe that everyone should know that the DC office in general — and Tom Mills in particular — has an outstanding commitment to diversity. By reputation, Mills is tremendously loyal to his people, and I think everyone should take him at his word that he did not mean to be quoted this way and regrets what has happened. Mills has spent years working to improve diversity, and I believe that he deserves the benefit of the doubt here.
We don’t think Thomas Mills has anything to apologize for. We kinda love old-school white guys. And we don’t have too much sympathy for lawyers complaining about overly formal attire. Isn’t part of the fun of practicing law the ability to play dress up?
When you spend twelve hours a day reviewing documents in a windowless conference room, or serving as some partner’s word-processing bitch, you may not feel like a lawyer. But if you dress up in a fancy suit, at least you get to look like one!
Law Without Suits: New Hires Flout Tradition [Wall Street Journal]
Are Associates too Freewheeling With Fashion? [WSJ Law Blog]
‘Abysmal’ Associate Attire Leads to Fashion Counseling [ABA Journal]
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Comments
What a tool! To add insult to injury, he asks for a show of hands of those offended?! He should be ousted.
Maybe I'm just a little out of it, but I don't see anything wrong with his comments. I'm so sick of these absurd forced public apologies.
Oh yeah - just look at his picture and you can understand exactly how old Mills-ey operates! If you wiki the definition of "crusty" he is there.
He looks like he came straight from central casting.
@ $160k/yr - you can start off at a minimum at brooks brothers - from here you move up. No matter what you pick, or they pick for you, it will fit like a suit should and you won't look like you're getting dressed to go to the Source Awards.
Just what is wrong with telling your female attorneys to stop dressing like sluts? If I'm a client and am greeted by an attorney with something too revealing on, I'd screw her brains out and then run to a different law firm.
Hey, is this new "Eli Stone" show basically just "Ally McBeal" all over again? She hallucinates and sees an animated dancing baby and he hallucinates and sees George Michael. lame.
as a future client I would like to see more short skirts ... preferably with no panties... on my counsel and opposing counsel. This guy is out of touch with reality.
Ha! It's funny because black people go to the Source Awards!
As for the "fitted Brioni suits" issue - yeah, $160k a year is enough to afford a suit or two. But if you're supporting a (small) family, paying $1000/month in loans and $2600/month in rent and utilities, there isn't a whole lot of room in a bi-weekly $3000 (after deductions) paycheck for a $2000 suit. Are these partners really that ignorant of the lives of junior associates?
Case in point: a friend's summer class a couple years ago was treated to a presentation by a firm financial consultant, who advised the young 'uns of the financial benefits of buying an apartment rather than renting upon graduation. When asked how they should find the money for a 20% (or even 10%) down-payment on a $300k condo, the guy patiently offered, "Maybe now's the time to ask Mom and Dad for that present?"
Bitch, if I had a mommy and daddy who could cut me a check for $60k as a "present," do you think I'd be working here?
The problem wasn't his comments. The problem is the ill-defined nature of "business casual" attire. Somewhere between the gray suit and white shirt that is business, and the jeans and t-shirt that is casual, there exists a form of dress that must be constantly and consistently updated and refreshed. Even when employers explicitly dictate what constitutes "business casual," the mere term revives ambiguity. So you'll get the guys in jeans that "look" dressy. And you'll get the girls in skirts that "flirt" with the boundary of what is appropriate in the workplace.
It was a simpler time when all you needed to do to look professional was to don your traditional 2 piece suit (or pant suit, jacket, blouse, etc). There's something to be said for the clarity and consistency. There's also something to be said for coming off as a professional adviser to your client. Let's face it, even if your client is wearing a polo shirt, you loose a little of the professional panache when you follow suit.
All puns intended.
First thing I was told in business school was, "dress for the job you want." So, if you dress like a slob or a slut, you obv want to be demoted to paralegal.
When I was a middle schooler I whined about dress codes too. Can we all grow up and realize fashion isn't a fundamental right?
1:06: Truer words never spoken. A partner at my (thank God) former firm made the associates feel greedy and guilty for expecting bonuses. Hypocritical ass. Also, don't we all have more than one suit? I only had three or four suits (let's be honest - when was I ever going to court or meeting a client?), but $6000 to spend solely on suits (not dry cleaning, not shoes, etc.) is a pretty penny during one's first year.
When I was a middle schooler I whined about dress codes too. Can we all grow up and realize fashion isn't a fundamental right?
01:06 PM: 300k condos? Where do you live? Kansas?
business - suit and tie
business casual - slacks (not khakis), button down shirt (with sleeves), no tie, slip on loafers acceptable
casual - khakis and golf shirt (a nice one, not the one you would wear on saturday to a bbq) and NEVER JEANS
hillbilly - jeans and t-shirt
please feel free to post this around your office if people need help
Business casual is for wimps. All firms should be business dress. Anything else is b-team.
And don't wear brooks brothers unless you're over 40 and live in the suburbs.
Nope, Brooklyn - the example was from Boston. I'm not even thinking about buying, my point was that it was ridiculous, even if you're looking for a crappy apartment near Boston, let alone New York or SF.
I'm sure it was done by mistake, but when people write "loose" when they mean to write "lose", it really bugs me.
Add the dry cleaning bill and the prices start to add up. (Yes, I know you don't take your suits to the cleaners more than a few times a year, but you sometimes have to get them pressed, and sometimes you spill your soup.)
Sure, the guy in the $3000 Brioni suit is going to apologize to the female associates. COME ON!
"Don't take your suits to the cleaners more than a few times a year"????!!!!!
Gross.
1:15, do you have a female equivalent? Because "business causal" is pretty easy for guys. I'm not sure what 1:08's talking about with guys in "dressy" jeans who think they're appropriate in an office.
Right on 1:24. Dry clean those things after every wearing.
Stop with all the whining. You can get a decent suit at Macy's for about $350. There's always a sale on holidays. Get two or three suits and then pick up a few sport coats and you're set. Don't get all flashy either: plain solid colors are all you need. The flair is all in the tie. For all those bitching about buying work attire, I'm curious what the rest of your wardrobe looks like.
I understand that Mills seems to be a little out of touch with reality re: how much associates can spend on clothing for work, but I don't see how his comments re: dressing inappropriately are in any way offensive. Isn't it patently obvious that attorneys (male or female) who want to be taken seriously should dress professionally? And for women, doesn't that obviously mean not wearing outfits that are so short and tight that they interfere with their ability to do something basic like exit a cab without flashing someone?
120: You, my friend, are AWESOME!
Brioni custom is what Trump wears.....$5k to start minimum. 1:24, you should not dry clean a quality suit all that often because of the harsh chemicals used however it is appropriate to steam clean after each wearing and spot clean as needed.
I see nothing wrogn with enforcing a dress-code of some kind, younger associates might actually benefit from giving off a more prof. vibe, there are plenty of designers who make current dress fashions without resorting to Brooks Bros. and many that cost a hell of a lot less than Brioni. I typcially wear a dress shirt/dress slacks to work...rarely put on a tie and do wear jeans on Fridays.
Telling a first year to buy an apartment is ridiculous, the $ for a down payment takes a while to accumulate, the attrition rate at big $ firms is high and ideally one should experience living somewhere before buying. If anything they should tell you to hoarde your $$ and invest it so you can leave faster.
Gob Bluth (aka 1:20)
You just made my week! Thank you
You can get a decent suit at Macy's for $350?
Haha. I'm a Century 21 man myself.
thank you, GOB at 1:20. I've missed you.
Geez, I think that I see panties in that open-thigh thing Calista has on. She looked decent back then before she dropped to 85 lbs and starting dating Indiana Jones. I know that the dress was part of the point of that whole show, and that she is sticking her leg out to show thigh like she is wearing a bikini, but that DVD cover is still absurd!
I don't work at Winston, but I rarely see associates dressing inappropriately. And, even if they are, why talk about it in a news article? Shouldn't a partner at a law firm (even someone old school) know better than to talk about how women dress, or black people talk or how whatever other group does whatever thing? Once you start delving into stereotypes or making generalizations about these kinds of things, you've got to be very careful.
1:38 Why does it matter? You wouldn't know.
I'll wear a suit if the powers that be vow to never make me work past the time of night when the building's A/C shuts down.
You f-ing firm types are unbelievable. Somehow, every first year prosecutor and public defender finds a way to buy enough suits for every day of the week. Just because you were too afraid of the courtroom to become a real lawyer doesn't mean you should whine about the partners that at least want your document-reviewing asses to dress like one.
1:38,
Have you ever shopped for a suit at Macy's? If not, STFU. If you want to spend a couple of grand on a suit, then do so, but just don't bitch about not being able to afford one when there are plenty of affordable options.
as a junior transactional attorney, i have zero in-person client contact. there is absolutely no reason i should not be able to wear nice jeans to work, at a minimum on fridays.
also, i really love it when people wearing a $50 pair of dockers khakis give me shit for wearing my $300 designer jeans.
1:19(1) - It was a pun. Read all the way to the end. Then, get a more stressful job so you'll have something serious to be bugged about.
1:32 - A $350 suit looks cheap no matter what. I hope you don't practice in NYC. Maybe that is acceptable in Kansas.
Also - I think it makes sense that if you summer somewhere paying $3K/week that you should take one week's pay and spend it on some decent clothes.
HE SHOULD ALSO "WEIGH IN" ON HOW ASSOCIATES -- AND FEMALE ASSOCIATES IN PARTICULAR -- HAVE LET THEIR WEIGHT BALLON RELATIVE TO HIS MASTURBATORY IDEAL.
1:46(3) - No comma after the 1:38. Haven't gotten to that in school yet? Maybe your district does puntuation in high school.
1:49(1): What is the pun? Can you explain it to me? Also, the fact that all (or almost all) of the other puns are in quotation marks and "loose" was not seems to indicate that "loose" was not intended as a pun. But maybe I'm wrong. Enlighten me.
Also, for those of you in NYC, Saks has a pretty sweet sale going on right now. Zegna shirts 1/2 off and some decent (Hickey, etc.) suits at 25% off. At least it was still going this weekend.
Thomas Pink rocks.
First, keep in shape. No quality of clothing and no degree of tailoring can make a fat piece of trash look professionally dressed.
Second, have your suits and shirts properly fitted to you. Not by the mass production “tailors” at your clothing store, but by someone who knows what they’re doing. They will cost money–pay it gladly.
Third, wear your suit to the office. You needn’t wear your tie with it, just keep those at the office in case you need to wear one.
Fourth, once at the office, take off that oppressive suit jacket–the jacket will thank you for reducing its wrinkles anyway.
And, hey presto!, you’re in slacks and a button down shirt, both of which should be about as comfortable as you can get. 30 seconds to put on your jacket, a minute or two with the tie, and you’re in full bore business attire.
1:50 - I know you're a big-swinging dick lawyer, but do you really think a first year associate should spend $1,500 suit at Hickey Freeman, $325 for a shirt and $100 for a tie at Thomas Pink, and $475 for a pair of shoes at Allen Edmunds? That is the definition of breaking the bank for someone who's take home is only $6,000 grand a month. One should not spend almost half of their monthly salary on one outfit. And if you get a suit at a nice department store, and have it tailored correctly, you will look fine and most people will not be able to tell the difference. Whether you are in Kansas or Manhattan.
1:53(1),
You are a shit. First, it is perfectly acceptable to put a comma after an identifier. Second, only a shit head would even bother to make grammar comments on a blog. Third, only a dumb shit head would give incorrect grammar advice on a blog.
Where can one purchase these mythical $3,000 Brioni suits? My last MTM Brioni sport coat was over four grand.
One thing about business casual, if you're not wearing a jacket the fit of the shirt becomes much more noticeable and important. Custom shirts are de rigueur.
01:06 PM, WAS THE OTHER GUY/GIRL SAYING THAT BLACK PEOPLE (WHO ARE THE MAIN ATTENDEES AT THE SOURCE AWARDS) DRESS BADLY? IF SO, THAT'S CRAP! THEY DRESS NO WORSE THAN ATTENDEES AT THE CMA'S (COUNTRY MUSIC AWARDS), MOSTLY WHITE PEOPLE.
IN THE NAME OF OBAMA, WHY NOT PICK AN AWARDS SHOW WITH LOTS OF BADLY DRESSED BLACK AND WHITE PARTICIPANTS -- THE GRAMMY’S.
AFTER ALL, THIS ISN'T ABOUT BLACK AGAINST WHITE OR EVEN THE PRESENT VS. THE FUTURE; IT'S ABOUT BAD DRESS VS. GOOD DRESS.
YES WE CAN!
1:47 Agreed. EVERYONE should be giving you shit for wearing (actually, buying) $300 jeans.
Any advice on stores/brands for women to try for suits?
"Business casual" is a difficult line for female associates. If you really follow the implicit dress code, it means having to wear a white/black/blue/gray shirt and black/gray pencil skirt/dress pants everyday. Most female associates who want to break the mold without being inappropriate end up wearing boxy sweaters and ill-fitting pants. I don't know why female associates can't experiment with colors/patterns and read a fashion magazine instead of cases once a while. "Business casual" does not have to be boring and make women look like men.
Ms. Christina Binkley sure loves the word sartorial. It appears no less than 3 times in the article. I floccinaucinihilipilificate her thesaurus and adviser her to defenestrate it immediately.
Anyone ever hear of Dress-up Thursdays--a marketing gimmick thought up by the professional attire industry to maintain profits in our increasingly casual Dress-down Fridays society?
Me neither.
err... that should read "advise her"
01:06 PM, WAS THE OTHER GUY/GIRL SAYING THAT BLACK PEOPLE (WHO ARE THE MAIN ATTENDEES AT THE SOURCE AWARDS) DRESS BADLY? IF SO, THAT'S CRAP! THEY DRESS NO WORSE THAN ATTENDEES AT THE CMA'S (COUNTRY MUSIC AWARDS), MOSTLY WHITE PEOPLE.
IN THE NAME OF OBAMA, WHY NOT PICK AN AWARDS SHOW WITH LOTS OF BADLY DRESSED BLACK AND WHITE PARTICIPANTS -- THE GRAMMY’S.
AFTER ALL, THIS ISN'T ABOUT BLACK AGAINST WHITE OR EVEN THE PRESENT VS. THE FUTURE; IT'S ABOUT BAD DRESS VS. GOOD DRESS.
YES WE CAN!
I really love it when people wearing a $50 pair of dockers khakis give me shit for wearing my $300 Rbk EDGE New York Rangers Authentic Home Jersey.
1:47 Agreed. EVERYONE should be giving you shit for wearing (actually, buying) $300 jeans.
"Custom shirts are de rigueur."
You people are crazy. There is no way junior asocaites should feel that they must spend this kind of money on clothes. Looking neat and professional does not require spending thousands of dollars.
I call b.s. on the 'taken out of context' excuse.
Why the hell would the CWT associate say that? And let her name be used? Career suicide? That wouldn't be hard at CWT.
4k for a sport coat? Unless you're on TV or in the movies, that's just plain carzy. I would imagine a 4k sport coat is the equivalent to a 50 y/o's new sports car . . . a really expensive way to overcompensate for physical shortcomings.
button down = type of collar
Hi!
I hate the NFL's policy regarding coach-wear. Come on Belichick, you earn millions a year-how do you continue to wear that frumpy cut off hoodie on national TV? I'm glad you really dressed up for the superbowl by switching to red.
And then the NFL has the nerve to fine the coaches who try to class up the joint by wearing suits. Isn't this a professional league? Didn't it start out with coaches wearing suits on gameday? Maybe they don't want to alienate Joe Blow watching on TV?
That's why me likes basketballs adherence to professional dress.
Anyone ever hear of Dress-up Thursdays--a marketing gimmick thought up by the professional attire industry to maintain profits in our increasingly casual Dress-down Fridays society?
Me neither.
I really do think that women have it a lot harder with respect to dress codes, and on top of that, fewer business attire choices.
(2:04): you must be a heterosexual man, as any well-bred homo male or female knows that the jeans you wear in public should be a designer brand that costs no less than $200 a pair.
What does "commitment to diversity" have to do with work attire?
Did anyone see the Louisville / Georgetown game on Saturday? What was with Louisville's coach changing clothes at halftime?
Looks like Sara Shikhman, the 26-year-old legal associate at Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP who said "Getting up in the morning and putting on a suit is hard," is no longer at the firm.
At least, she's not listed as belonging to the firm.
My firm has "Pimp suit" Mondays. It's outta sight!
Ya! I'm a cop you idiot! I'm going to ask you some questions and I want them answered immediately! Who is your daddy and what does he do?
What's your dog's name? (Max) How's Wolfy--I can hear him barking? (Wolfy's just fine dear.)
Both your foster parents are dead.
I don't get why he's being criticized. He's not talking about women lookng femenine. He's talking about women dressing like my firm's summer clerk this past year who barely covered her ass. No one takes you seriously as a lawyer if they think of you as a piece of meat. It might be their problem for not being able to look past your rack, but it's an avoidable problem if you could only button one more button and hide your bra.
Can someone explain to me why attractive female associates' dressing in classy but somewhat provocative outfits, if they so choose, is a bad thing for anyone? I haven't heard a good response yet. We're all well aware that people are sexual beings; they think about it a lot. Women (at least all the women I know) often dress with sexual attractiveness in mind; heterosexual men (and often homosexual men too, in an aesthetic sort of way) usually appreciate it. What's the problem?
Does anyone think female attorneys legitimately should wear the skirts described? This shit is not offensive. What a bunch of candy-asses.
Aren't we missing the real story? Lat, please interview Ms. Arnold. Actually, I think you could safely devote a week or two.
http://www.rosemariearnold.com/
From the WSJ story linked above:
Trial attorney Rosemarie Arnold says young lawyers need to learn that "courtroom drama is all about control." Ms. Arnold represented Joran van der Sloot, one of three men who were with student Natalee Holloway before she disappeared in Aruba. With courtroom appearances in mind, Ms. Arnold spends $150,000 a year on clothes, she estimates. She is partial to Gucci and Dolce & Gabbana in particular and black suits in general.
"Trying a case is like a movie," Ms. Arnold says. "Wardrobe is everything."
I love the douchey, pretentious, elitist comments relating to $350 dollar suits. No one sees the goddamn tag on your suit!!! If you aren't built like quasimodo, you can find some very nice looking suits, on sale, in the $300 range (macy's, century21, etc...).
You can get your $3000 suit, and sit there all smug, doing doc review, where no one to see you or your tag. I'll be enjoying the extra $2700 in my pocket, and still being more successful because I give a crap about my work product!
Has no one seen American Psycho???
for all the bitching whiners...
stump up the $3K for a plane ticket, (ie) save some money on our "measly" salary and hop a plane to China, vietnam, thailand etc. then go crazy... and buy nothing but fitted suits that look better than the shit Brioni and Loro Piana make (if Brioni is $5K then you paid about $700 above the better quality Loro Piana, and $4800 more than better quality Chinese suits.) Then when a d*ouche partner starts talking about how you look, tell him ask him if he wears nothing but fitted suits, and if not to go ...
All women should dress in a way that lets men know if the curtains match the drapes.
2:18 - I think most will generally agree that is correct. What is concerning is that for some reason the general default seems to run towards "whore."
1:47-
I'd be giving you sh*t for wearing $300 designer jeans too. That's just plain stupid.
For the record, the price of the suit doesn't necessarily say anything about how good it looks. In my law school days I scored some nice suits from United Colors of Benetton that, because I know how to get a suit tailored properly, will make me look better than some of you ignorant schmucks will ever look in more expensive things. Also, I look WAY better than you do in more expensive things.
I'd rather wears suits to work but i'd be ostracized (biglaw NY) by other associates, even though its what most partners wear.
2:25 -- we don't need to see the tag on your suit to know that it is cheap.
Of course, lesser suits come in handy when it rains/snows/sleets, so knock yourself out.
I'd rather wears suits to work but i'd be ostracized (biglaw NY) by other associates, even though its what most partners wear.
Women wearing provocative clothing helps everyone. It makes the senior partners notice the junior associate women and nothing ushers the junior associate men into the old boys club faster than catching the partner's eye and sharing a smile (and keeping your mouth closed) when a hot paralegal or whatever walks by.
I live in the American Gardens building on West 81st Street. I am 21 years old. In the morning if my face is a little puffy, I apply an ice pack while doing crunches. I can do 1,000 now. [He] and I have the same barber, but I have a slightly better haircut. OH MY GOD!!! Is that a watermark!
Oh, and for anyone who hasn't used Hong Kong Tailors -- they are amazing.
Who only pays $1000/month in loans? I'm at close to twice that amount -- and that's when I'm only paying my minimum (on the 30 year plan, natch).
Hong Kong is where it's at. Get a whole wardrobe for the price of 1 Brioni.
Awesome post 2:10-
"I really love it when people wearing a $50 pair of dockers khakis give me shit for wearing my $300 Rbk EDGE New York Rangers Authentic Home Jersey."
Nothing says style like a faux lace-up collar. I think all associates should have an "A" sewn on to the right breast of their suits. Maybe I can get a throwback 3-piece plaid suit at Mitchell and Ness with the 100 yr anniversary of Cadwalader patch.
Macy's suits really don't hold up well after a few dry cleanings.
What are the good New York tailors? (good as in associates can afford a few of them; not great as in costs 5K+ per suit)
I love it when our paralegal/law clerk wears here form fitting button-up oxfords, and the pearls...oh my God. boy would I giver her some of 2:33, JK.
If it doesn't have to be dry cleaned, it isn't business casual.
Linus in SOHO on Spring and W Broadway. Great $400+ suits, $90 shirts and $55 ties.
No one has mentioned that shoes are BY FAR the most important ingredient. Shoes say it all. Cheap shoes make a $2000 suit look like it is from Target.
I went to the meeting and read the article. Bottom line: Tom should not have had the conversation he had with the reporter at all. At the meeting he explained how he was misquoted, and noted that some of his most egregious statements were actually examples of things that he said Winston did not have to deal with. Tom made a mistake and he publicly apologized. I think most associates have moved on.
Hey QUESTION, the reason we don't want women wearing revealing clothes is that then we, as men, can't help but look at their legs. Then the next thing you know she's telling all the other women in the office that you are a creeper.
Did Sara Shikhman get fired??? If not, she should be.
i really dont want to spend my day thinking about bending the associate next door over the copy machine - id rather just do it to my secretary and forget about the chick next door.
can we get a list of firms that are business-dress and not business-casual so I can pick which one to lateral to?
Don't get too caught up in the cost of the suit. What you really need to spend your money on is the tailoring. Allowing some random dickwad at Macy's or Brooks Brothers or most alterations places to mess with your suit will give you no chance to look good.
CSM and WLRK are still business formal. Also Jones Day, if we're counting TTTs.
anyone got links to Heath Ledger autopsy photos?
for any man who has ever wondered why women hate men, it is because of the comments on this post.
Nothing wrong with hot females dressing provacatively. I love it. Just don't expect to be taken seriously as a lawyer when you do. You can decide to advance by being flaunting your smoking hot body or by being considered a great lawyer, but not both. A hot chick in a meeting is eye candy, no matter how smart she is. That's just how it is. It's not that I want to spend that time mentally undressing you. It's just that I can't help it. I'm a guy, after all.
The whining about clothing costs here is absurd. You can get Brooks Brothers suits for 40% off during their semi-annual sale, and that's a hell of a suit for $400-$500. Obviously, they are not the best of the best, but they're more than adequate and a huge step above Macy's. Methinks anyone making $160k or more can easily afford one or two.
NOT cool putting links to porn sites. . .
forget macys. just go jos bank for a decent suit. the sig gold suits always go on sale for under $500, and they're a solid entry-level suit.
Baker & McKenzie is business casual 24/7 and sometimes jeans on friday. Business casual is defined in the attorney manual and specifically includes "golf shirts".
Dress Code for Ladies:
Business: Skirt Suit (below knees); neutral color blouse.
Business Casual: lose the jacket above, may substitute suit pants
Casual: suit pants, blouse
Hillbilly: dress like your secretary
Night at Club: dress like your paralegal
why are lawyers such crybabies...lol@those stupid girls actually raising their hands too
1:47 = money does not equal class, are you from brooklyn? Do you have a blowout? Do you spray tan or bake tan?
Do you ever wonder why you look at your bank account statement and it doesn't go up despite earning over $200K/year? Do you ever wonder why you can't pay off your credit card bills despite earning over $200K/year? Do you ever wonder if you will ever be able to afford a down payment on a nice house in the burbs/NYC apartment?
It might be because you only feel good about yourself if the clothes that you are wearing = a weekly paycheck. It's hard to pay down loans, save money, etc. when you do that.
Now you might respond that there are people out there who can tell the difference between your amazing clothing and the rest of us plebs who buy our clothing at Macy's/Sak's etc. You might even look down at our poor judgement. Unfortunately, most of us don't care and prefer to have the other finer things in life (i.e. - nice car, nice house, etc.) while dressing moderately well, but not at the height of fashion.
Now, if you are trust fund baby, spend away...have some fun and spur the economy. But the rest of you who need to spend $3000 on a suit to feel as if it is up to par, $200 on a shirt and $350 on a pair of pants...you need a little help.
You probably bought Jordan's when you were a kid thinking that it would turn your two-left-feet-behind into a baller. Guess what, the sneakers didn't help, and the clothes may make you look smart...but that is as far as they can help.
Oh - and Century 21 does have the BEST quality suits at amazing prices. That is where the smart money is at...
asking them to raise their hands was brilliant. Now he knows who to fire because they are the same bitches who will sue for sexual harassment when they show up in cloths that are to tight and someone looks at them
3:14 - Agreed.
Just as an example, someone mentioned Thomas Pink for shirts and ties. Pink has some great shirts. I have two of them. But the fact is they cost 3x as much as Brooks Bros ($180 for Pink vs. $67 for Brooks Bros .. factoring in tax on $180 it's roughly 3x).
It makes sense to have maybe one or two really good suits ... the others can be in the $300-$500 range.
Same with shirts, pants, shoes, etc. That way you have a good overall wardrobe, can look amazing if needed, and don't go broke.
Jos A. Bank is garbage, plain and simple. Ever wonder why their shit is constantly "on sale"? Because no one will pay anything close to the "list" price for that trash. The NY AG actually sued them for deceptive advertising practices and the company caved right away. They were caught red-handed and they knew it. What amazes me is that they went right back to the same BS ad campaigns. I have long believed there is a great opportunity for an enterprising consumer class action lawyer there. But the main point is the clothes are rags.
I think a woman in a burqa head piece and a tiny, short skirt would be a good compromise...
3:17, why don't you quit your miserable job and get rich as a plaintiffs' sexual harassment lawyers? Since you seem to think that your secretary can sue you for millions because you can't keep your eyes off her ass. Go ahead. It's easy. You want to get rich, don't you?
Discount stores like century 21 and Marshall's frequently have insane sales on really good suits (assuming you can find your size). e.g. Hugo Boss suit for $200.
Seriously, you can get great suits custom made from the same fabric in BKK and HK for about 1/5-1/10 of the price of something off the rack. The plane ticket there is barely over $1k.
But this guy has a point, most of the chicks rocking those slutty mcbeal suits have no business squeezing into them. Legs like two overstuffed sausages stuffed into a second casing. Ew.
3:42
but you would end up needing to stay in BKK or HK for like 3 weeks or come home and just go back (assuming they get the suit right the first time, more if they don't)
Jebus Christ. Fuck but I am glad I don't live with the uptight bitches on the east coast.
I wear jeans to my office all the time (and no, I'm not at Quinn -- just a west coast-based midlaw (160 scale)). No one gives a fuck about 5k suits or some other bullshit. Clients included. Half the time when I meet with clients they're less dressed up than I am, and I am not a dress-up person. Even the clients have casual Fridays.
Also, the boomer partners I work for are always comparing technogeek phones and such. I have yet to hear anyone say much about a watch, other than maybe needing a new battery. Watches are boring. I'd rather be hip than moldy. You can keep your east coast snootiness and the clothing that you waste your money on.
Seriously, there is something wrong with people who think that blowing 5 Gs on a fucking piece of clothing is more important than delivering quality work. People like this highlight the WORST that America has to offer. I mean, talk about wasting money. There are so many things you could get for five thousand dollars that are way more important and useful than a stupid suit.
These losers are trumped-up Ladies Who Lunch. They're more concerned about how much you spent on your Prada purse than on how your family's doing. Gross.
HK suits will have lead or some toxic shit in them. and the whole supporting a sweatshop thing.
I work at Winston and I am often shocked at what the female associates wear. A seventh year should not wear fishnets to the office. Ever.
Screw it.
I heart Banana Republic.
Fishnets are always acceptable (when the legs are nice).
Fishnets are only acceptable for a seventh year associate at the Bunny Ranch.
The problem with Mills' sexist remarks is not that it's a bad idea to show good judgment in how revealing your clothing is -- the problem is that by making any kind of reference to a ridiculously outrageous example he's suggesting that it has much of any basis in reality (which it doesn't). And THAT is sexist -- it basically means that if any woman walks around wearing anything that doesn't go to mid-calf, she can rest assured Mills will be mentally undressing her in his creepy-ass brain.
Funny, 3:50. It's mostly dudes being critical about men's clothing on this thread. Interesting that you zeroed right in on the women.
Also, the whole "I'm on the West Coast and am sooooo laid-back" thing gets old mighty quick.
I thoroughly enjoyed 3:50's rant. S/he made a lot of assumptions, and a lot of generalizations, but it was a good ride. And in the end isn't that all that matters? The answer, of course, is no.
When are you folks going to leave Cadwalader alone? Your witching and moaning about CWT is starting to sound like you are jealous that you are not working there.
And while I am at it - what is wrong with dressing appropriatly for your job - wear jeans if you are going to bust broncs - otherwise a suit doesn't hurt you or your budget
3:32, thank you. Vermin like 3:17 are what makes this industry such a miserable work environment. Any whiny asshole bitch who thinks that sexual harassment lawsuits are anything remotely *approaching* "easy," such that they purportedly cower in fear behind their desks (they don't) lest their innocent glances be taken as ogling by the irrational wimmins populating their offices, should try talking to an ACTUAL sexual harassment lawyer and see just how fabulously wealthy he or she is, and hear just how easy his or her job is.
Also, the likelihood of your ACTUALLY getting sued even when you DO sexually harass your coworkers is about the same likelihood as McDonald's getting sued every time someone burns his lip on a cup of coffee.
Pathetic bunch of creeps who probably can't get laid. (And is it any wonder why?)
3:50, we non-uptight bitches on the West Coast kindly ask that you get your sorry ass over to the East Coast so we don't have to put up it. You're not as hip as you think you are.
Think about why you are dressing "formally" - it's probably because the notion of formal and proper attire came from England, where it's cold as f*ck. Business formal is fine up north where it's cold at least half of the year. Don't expect the rest of the country to follow. Makes as much sense as the dipsh*ts here in the South that buy hot Starbucks coffee in August - it might make sense in Seattle, but not here.
That being said, the better you dress, the better folks with treat you. If you are a junior associate who's doing doc review, you may not need to impress your client, but you still need to impress your partners.
Brioni suits for a First Year? Not all of us are trust-funders or had mommy and daddy pay for everything before we became lawyers.
I saw bring back NASA attire - short sleeve shirts with ties - nothing says "smart" like that.
So what about watches? I received a nice watch as a law school graduation present. Do I look like a tool wearing it to the office, or should I sub in a kenneth cole special for 9-5 hours?
4:19, actually the point was that the MALE partners being snooty bitches are just as worthy of scorn and derision as are women who stroll around with nothing better to do than buy name-brand (the implication being -- for those who don't pick up as easily on subtext -- that it's sexist to demean those women, as most people do, while giving the white collar creeps a free ride).
And to the both of you -- don't be jealous. It's really unbecoming. Try moving here and see how much the sunshine improves your mood.
You can get custom suits in BKK for $400 max. from established suitmakers like Raja's. They can bang out the thing in 3 days and, if need be, will even ship it to you in the US. You only really need 3-4 working days. If you're on vacation anyway it's no big deal -- just need to make 2 visits. One for the first selection/measurement and another for the test fit.
Short sleeve shirt and a tie...
"ohh, but Sipowicz does it!"
c'mon people, this is all about identity, not money
3:50/4:30 - It's hard to play the "don't be jealous" card after your last post. If you had been cool about your first post, maybe, but after playing the db card, it's tough to unplay it.
go to sample sales, or to the twice a year bloomingdales men's sale, when all suits are 40% off...get some boss, or theory, or zegna, and look money
dress classy because you want to, not because you have to
Can someone please explain to me how a $13,000/mo pay in NY reduces down to $6,000/mo? I'm moving to NY after graduation and don't know much about the deductions but more than half my paycheck getting cut is absolutely ridiculous.
4:45, Fed, state, and muni tax
4:45: Patriot Act. Read it.
4:48 - Thanks, so it is correct then...
I have to completely redo my finances now!
"Dress for the job you want." I came to work in a spacesuit.
4:45, also add in 10% for 401k
4:53 - Do I have to create a 401k? I wasn't planning on one until I pay off all my bar trip and education loans.
I don't know about the statement that business casual is particularly ambiguous, at least when it comes to deciding what to wear to a typical Biglaw firm. The rule of thumb that I follow is that, when I'm dressing for work, if something seems like it might be too low-cut, tight, or otherwise inappropriate, I save it for clubbing on the weekend and definitely don't wear it to work. No one has ever complained about my appearance or suggested that I need to make changes to be taken seriously, so I'm guessing that my approach works.
In contrast, I know of an associate who used to get in fights with the partner that she worked with over whether certain pants that she wore to work were jeans or not. To me, that's a battle that you can't win, no matter how great the argument is for "not jeans." Maybe some of the comments in that article were a bit tool-ish, but I'm a little more surprised at the comment that an associate was consistently "coached" on wearing different clothes and ignored the advice. If I craved individuality and flexibility, I wouldn't be working for Biglaw.
to 4:45- Regarding the difference between gross and net paycheck. In NYC, you have federal taxes (same as elsewhere), state taxes are about 7 percent (VERY high compared to other states), and NYC city taxes at that income would be about 3 percent (also very high). Finally, you are also likely contributing to a 401K, and also paying some/all of your insurance premiums, which can be 500-1000 per month if you have a family.
You may also have various personal charges coming out of your paycheck that you did not notice (for car service that you forgot to charge to a client, etc.), but this would be a separate line-item.
Of course, you will get two "raises" in your take-home pay-- 1) when you max out your 401K contributions, so that deduction is no longer taken out, and 2) when you hit your social security "cap" - the 6.5 percent withholding for social security is only taken from the first 95k of your annual salary.
After both of those occur, you take-home will go up by about 20 percent (about 10 percent for each).
Jos. A. Bank suits are fine if it is a well-tailored top-model suit. Spend the extra money on getting your fat-ass in shape and saving for your divorce.
4:45-you'd be an idiot not to do 401k since it's tax-deferred. The next best thing to no taxes is deferred taxes.
4:45
try the personal paycheck calculator at www.paycheckcity.com. And sit down before you hit calculate. It sucks.
4:30 -- the watch needs to match the outfit. If it is a dress watch (i.e., thin enough to get under the cuff of a dress shirt), have at it. If it's a dive watch (like a Rolex submariner or an Omega Seamaster or such) or something big and chunky) you may want to think about something else with a suit. Most people don't notice watches, so there is no shame in wearing a good one.
Eagle - thanks for explaining all that. I'm in LA right now and I don't think it's as bad as NY. Funny, people were saying that it would be an easy transition...
I summered in NYC but didn't get taxed like this, it was less. Now I have to figure out the way to get my money back though.
Dot Org sites are not porn... hilarious.
Dot org(y) sites are porn...
Lat, where's the links under "old", "school", "white", and "guys" to indicate your love of them? Kozinski would surely qualify...
Take home pay for a single NYC resident earning $160,000 is $7821 per month after taxes but before benefits/401k/etc.
Just for kicks, the same for
Chicago - $8814
DC - $8201
LA/SF - $8080
Taxes:
Federal: 28%+
Social Security (up to 102,000): 7%
Medicare: 2%
State (NY) + City (NYC): 10%
Oh, and if you suck it up and live across the Hudson, you take home $8351, or about $530 more. More than covers the cost of the PATH train.
If you bill a lot and your work is good, it doesn't matter what you wear.
If you bill not much and your work is shit, it doesn't matter what you wear.
It therefore doesn't matter what you wear, unless you're a member of the fashion mafia that has taken control of these comments.
5:11 - Yeah, most people who summer in NYC don't notice it ... your tax rates are a lot lower when you only make $36-40k like most summers do throughout the year. Most firms' payroll depts set it up so the proper amount is withheld, so you end up keeping about 75% of your paycheck as a summer
I haven't looked into 401k that much but my/our bar trip alone is going to cost about 45,000. So I don't know if I'm going to have money left for a 401k...
4:22 Everyone is jealous they don't work at CWT.
3:45 - you can go in to get measured, tried on for a second fitting, and finished in under a week. There are certainly some guys making garbage there, but there are a few very well known and well respected tailors in both BKK and HK who do excellent work. Do a search for tailors who have been written up by the NY times, etc. Spend a week in Koh Samui during the interim.
Slim Charles @ 5:23
You obviously lack basic logical reasoning skills.
5:27--what kind of suit are you wearing?
5:17 - I don't think I kept 75%, it was a bit less but definately higher than 50%.
You can save a fortune if you grow into a perfect fit and stay that way for decades. Been a 40 Regular all my life.
I know this place is for attorneys, but I work in the industry and I have to comment on the complaints about money. I get so tired of hearing about the student loans. I went to a top 20 school for my MBA, which costs as much as a J.D., yet I'm not making $160K coming out. Most of us have to have some type of real work experience to make that much money. I'm not saying student loans aren't a pain, but please stop using them to justify the need for more money.
I own in D.C., drive a nice car, support my family, pay my student loans, and still have money to buy decent, non-reveleaing clothing. What's the problem? Also, I think it's rare for a 1st year to have a large family to support, so that excuse doesn't make much sense either.
Go ahead, feel free to hack me to pieces. I just feel it had to be said. Stop blaming the student loans for your inability to live off of $160K (minimum!).
5:26 PM:
If you spend $45K for a post-bar exam vacation and thus can't afford a 401K contribution, your priorities are skewed.
5:37...your point is well taken, please understand that 1. many posters here DO NOT earn $160k even a few years out of law school and 2. a large number work in NYC which sadly requires $100k to make ends meet in decent accomodations unless you were fortunate enough to own a place or have other liek accomodations.
5:37--I don't think this counts as hacking, but I'm not seeing how a 2 year MBA costs as much as a 3 year JD, in that the annual tuition is about the same for both.
Anyway, no matter how much you make, I think your employer's right to dictate how you spend your salary is limited.
I work out, wear tailored $300 Banana Republic/J Crew suits and always get compliments. Slim your fat ass down and it's amazing how good any suit will look on you, regardless of price. Tailoring is key.
Yawn.
Common Sense -
1) I am going on the bar trip with my spouse,
2) It's a 4-month trip
3) It's an around-the-world trip.
And yes, this is more important to me than the 401k. But if there's no way to keep more of my paycheck, my spouse cannot come on the trip.
A 40 regular is the result of diet and exercise?
Admittedly, I'm a woman, but at 5'7" my highest "healthy" weight won't even get me up to a 30.
Who the fuck has four months for a bar trip??
to 6:10
6:11 -- I am giving a break between graduation and studying for the bar. Then, I have about 3. Total makes 4.
If you don't take your wife with you - you are going to be worrying about alimony.
5:18, are you even working? Have you ever done taxes? SS + Medicare TOGETHER are 7.65% unless you're self-employed, in which case it doubles. At least you're right about it only being up to $102,000 for 2008.
It's called FICA. Look it up.
Go to the Barneys warehouse sale; it starts this weekend and runs until early March. It has been a staple of my entire biglaw career.
And I second 1:46(2). Funny how prosecutors and public defenders manage to dress like lawyers, but so many biglaw ass-ociates whine about the cost of suits.
As a petite woman I find J.Crew suits fit great. They are a bit pricey but since the fabric doesn't change year to year you don't have to buy the whole suit (skirt, jacket, pants and dress) at the same time. I just bought the black wool crepe pants three weeks ago and they match perfectly with the jacket I bought in late 1998 when I first graduated from undergrad.
I also agree that going abroad for suits is a great idea. I bought two suits (skirt, jacket and pants) for about $220 in Beijing. I also got some custom made blouses for about $12 per piece.
I second (third, or whatever) all the comments about sub-$500 suits. I have a collection of suits from Ralph Lauren and Calvin Klein that I've gotten, all for under $500 each, and I always get compliments. If you're built like a real man, you can wear just about anything off the rack and it will look good. If you're a fat, pasty-assed layabout, you're going to need a $5000 suit to look good.
I pity all of you who need to spend a two-weeks of pay to get "specialized" clothing so that you can look normal.
7:09 - No, most likely you look like crap. A suit should be tailor made. Otherwise, you suits will be to clothing what the camaro is to autos.
If you don't take your wife with you - you are going to be worrying about alimony.
Posted by: Anonymous | February 11, 2008 06:50 PM
Hahahahahahahaa! I love your perspective, good point.
I was BROKE when I graduated from law school and moved to DC. Tons of law school debt and no hope of starter money from my parents. For my bar trip, I spent less than a week in a U.S. tourist destination not too far from where I lived because the last thing that I wanted to do was get myself further into debt before I started earning a paycheck. Regardless, I had at least a couple of decent (definitely not expensive, but not cheap looking) suits that I had purchased for law school interviews. I also had the work clothes that I had worn as a summer associate, when it also was not acceptable to show up to work in flip flops and a t-shirt. After I got my first paycheck, I went to buy some more business casual appropriate clothing. Now a few years down the line, I have a work appropriate wardrobe, have managed to pay down most of my student debt, and own a condo in DC. Therefore, I'm not sure that I understand all of the hoopla about associates not being able to afford decent work clothes. I didn't even read the article to say that we all need to be wearing suits every day, but more that men need to get their shoes shined every once in awhile and women need to make sure that their boobs aren't popping out of their shirts and that they aren't "pulling a Britney" every time they wear a skirt.
As for the female associates who were bold enough to raise their hands to say that they were "offended" by the W&S' partner's comments, since when is it so offensive for someone to imply that Ally McBeal style clothing isn't appropriate for the Biglaw world? I don't see why any woman would really need to be offended unless that's how she actually dresses, in which case I personally wouldn't want to waive my hand around to draw the managing partner's attention to the fact that I think that's appropriate.
Stop spending so much money eating out, and buy some nice clothes.
i love american psycho. thanks to whoever made all those comments.
i know an associate who buys her suits at Macys. nasty
How much should female associates pay for outfits? In particular, what's the minimum? Banana Republic? Ralph Lauren? Saks store brand? Anthropologie???
"Don't just stare at it, eat it!"
I would love to wear a burqa to my workplace. I could come into work with bad hair, no make-up, and PJs underneath.
Better yet, get the guys into burqas too, hilarity is sure to ensue.
Apologize if this is a double post - got an error message:
There seems to be a lot of extremes here on what to and not do dress, at least for men.
First of all, for most junior biglaw associates, I agree, for the most part there is no reason to wear a suit to work every day. In fact, 90% of the time it won't be necessary. With that said, if you want to wear a suit every day, go for it. There's no shame in dressing professionally if you want to.
As far as cost/quality of the suit, obviously it is not feasible or necessary to expect junior associates to pay $5000+ per suit. At minimum, though, junior associates should have at least one Brooks Brothers / Hickey Freeman / equiv. level suit. That's about $800-$1000 when paying full price.
Of course, there is no reason why you should be paying full price. For any clothes, unless you are going clubbing and need THE latest fashion, or for some reason need to have your suits custom made (obviously doesn't apply to those purchasing in HK or BKK, since, of course, it is worth it).
Think of the suit economy (and, well, all clothes) this way. Creating any factory made suit (and yes, even the higher end suits are factory made) does not cost that much on the margins. The cost comes from the initial design and purchase of the design, as well as start up costs for the factory. Long story short, high fixed cost, low marginal cost thereafter. On the retail end, you'll see that the initial cost is very high, but markdowns come quickly thereafter. They are making their profit on those who purchase right when something comes out. After a new style has been released for a given time, what remains is typically discounted. For higher ends, the discount may be 20-30%. HF / BB suits usually go to about 40-50%. Jos Bank and Macys go to about 75%.
In other words, people who insist on having a slightly different design right when it comes out subsidize those of us who are willing to wait. Pretty simple.
So get one good suit on sale. Make sure it fits well and take it to a good tailor. Then, get a few decent suits on sale. Check out Century 21, Bank, Macys, etc.
After that, get a good selection of Brooks Brothers or CT shirts. BB shirts are very inexpensive if you buy three of them. If you're in decent shape, the slim fit non-iron is the way to go. Tyrwhitt always has half their selection on sale for 30 GBP, or just over 60 bucks. Round it out with a few shirts from Century 21, as wel as a few decent pairs of trousers, also from BB, Bank or Cent 21, Macys even, and you're good to go.
You don't have to break your bank. Stagger your purchases throughout the year. The shirts don't go out of style, for the most part. Neither do the suits. As long as it's not 80+ degrees outside or you don't sweat like a pig normally, wear the shirts at least twice before having them cleaned. Suits clean only when necessary. Wash your socks after each wear.
Follow these simple instructions, and you can rock your appearance at biglaw until you go to some other dead end job, make partner, or die.
Anthropologie? Do they make suits? I missed where lawyers got to where floral strapless dresses, open toe wedge heels, and cute "vintage" cardigans.
Gypsy lawyers? Lawyers on study abroad who practice out of a quaint local cafe?
As long as it's not 80+ degrees outside or you don't sweat like a pig normally, wear the shirts at least twice before having them cleaned.
Anon | February 11, 2008 09:52 PM
NO! This is a dealbreaker. Even if you wear an undershirt - you are not that clean!! You are a man!! GROSS!
Macy's is nasty. EWwwwwwwwww
I wonder if they have patent prosecutors at Mills' office. The typical patent prosecutor is some tech geek working on foreign prosecutions and never sees Japanese client, which in any event is some Japanese corp.
Patent Examiners are 22 year old kids who feel imposed on to wear a $50 dockers.
The client you may see is some chubby middle-aged Indian engineer who will tell you endlessly how is kid is in med school.
I am not wearing a suit for that.
Tom Mills is an embarassment to our firm. No doubt about it. His comments were horribly out of step and sexist in nature. Rest assured that this issue will be taken up with our Professional Conduct Committee and Management Committee.
Tom Mills is an embarassment to our firm. No doubt about it. His comments were horribly out of step and sexist in nature. Rest assured that this issue will be taken up with our Professional Conduct Committee and Management Committee.
What about associate rides?
Who here is leasing a German automobile?
I've always found that you can get a good suit on sale in the $275-350 range (tailoring excluded). Buy yourself several shirts and ties for $150 and you're well on your way to looking like the professional you were hired to be. The real secret to dressing for success? A nice pair of Florsheims.
Tom Mills is an embarassment to our firm. No doubt about it. His comments were horribly out of step and sexist in nature. Rest assured that this issue will be taken up with our Professional Conduct Committee and Management Committee.
i like to dress conservatively in the office so the boys don't spend too much time staring at my 36 Cs and my cellulite free ass.
Stop trying to dress like partners making high six when you are making a fraction of that and supposedly making payments on large debt.
$160K pre-insane tax is not money to burn. You still need to do basic monthly expenses, and $5000 suits don't fit unless you have outside wealth.
Tom Mills is most definitely not an embarrassment to Winston & Strawn. He is a great leader who stands up for his people and is willing to fight for an office that doesn't get nearly the respect it deserves within the firm.
As an associate, I am not privy to all of the information that "Female Winston Partner" (10:33 pm) knows of, but I think the real embarrassment would be if Winston rebuked Tom based on a one-time mistake devoid of any malice. Anyone who has interacted with Mills in any way knows that he is not the sexist that he is being made out to be. Everyone makes mistakes. Even the managing partner. Even, perhaps, Female Winston Partner.
It is obvious to anyone who reads the WSJ article that Mills was not talking about Winston associates. We aren't even allowed to wear jeans, which was a prominent Mills quote. And there is perhaps only one female associate in the last five years who wore any outfits remotely resembling what Mills described. (She was a good person btw.) What to make of this? Was Mills (a) talking about associates in law firms generally or (b) talking about a nonexistent issue (jeans) and another issue (inappropriate dress) that only applied to one attorney out of dozens of people? If you are paying attention at all to this discussion, the obvious answer is the former. If you think (b) is the answer, then most of Mills' quotes make NO SENSE. And Mills is not a guy who makes no sense.
None of this is meant to justify Mills' quotes. He should not have said what he said. He admitted as much in the meeting. But it is important to note that the reporter also took Mills grossly out of context and that he has subsequently apologized. Anyone who is honest about this issue should acknowledge everything I have just written in this paragraph.
People should not be using Mills' mistake to advance other agendas. If folks have other problems with Mills, so be it, but don't be disingenuous and make it sound like this is the canary in the mine. Because it is not.
I can't believe some of the advice in this thread. John Lobb's for anyone with money and taste. TYIA.
12:16am: Hi Tom Mills!
Shop at Loehmann's, Daffy's, Filene's Basement, and DSW shoes (ladies, that is). They have excellent prices and generallya big selection. I don't step foot into Barney's or any of those places - it's just way, way more than I'm willing to spend.
Don't freak out about how much you spend. People think they're so discerning, but they're not.
How is what he said offensive at all? If women are really dressing that way in his office then that's extremely inappropriate. If guys are dressing like rock stars or hollywood or whatever he said then that's extremely inappropriate.
nothing wrong with gettting leg up on the competition climbing the law firm ladder
I agree with 10:56. As a female associate, if I were shocked and surprised to learn that I'm not supposed to dress like Ally McBeal at work (or act like her, for that matter), I'd be glad to get the news bulletin. Seems a lot better than the passive aggressive approach that a lot of partners follow of not telling associates what they think and then dinging them for it later on. I was in law school when Ally McBeal was still on and I specifically remember people saying "you could never wear that suit to court or the office." If anyone missed that memo, they sound kind of clueless to me.
In response to the poster who asked what the "minimum" standard of dress is for women, I think that women may have it easier in some respects, in that unless we are in an extremely formal office, we can get away with wearing a nice blouse or sweater and slacks from a store like Banana Republic or Ann Taylor Loft. I have a couple of Nordstrom brand suits that did not break the bank and they seem to fit the bill on the rare occasions where I have to wear a suit -- usually for a job interview! It seems more difficult to get a "cheap" men's suit that actually fits properly and they don't have as many alternatives as we do in what to wear. Although, I guess that makes it easier to pick out an outfit in the morning.
The fact that so many folks have come to the managing partners defense probably means he is actually a decent guy worried about the image of the firm. It's true that some people have taken business casual to new extremes, giving the rest of us cogs a bad name. Oh well!
If Biglaw managing partners begin to feel that associates are pushing the limits on business casual clothing, some firms may just decide to require suits every day. Perhaps it would make it more difficult for those firms to recruit, but I kind of doubt it given the way that posters on this blog regularly scramble to assert themselves as graduates of top law schools and employees of non-"TTT" firms. If business attire were somehow associated with being the cream of the crop, lots of people in our profession would claw each others' eyes out for those jobs.
I'm not saying that associates really do push the limits on that many occasions (they don't at my Biglaw firm from what I can tell), but I'd like to hear how the "offended" associates would respond if firms simply switched back to business attire. I also don't think that "I don't make enough money and have too much student debt" would make it very far as an argument for not wearing appropriate attire in most professions. My husband is a consultant and routinely works on projects with non-legal employers who require business attire, in companies where the average employee makes a lot less than a first year associate (probably less than a legal secretary as well). You can all start in on how Biglaw associates are different because we are professionals, go to school for so many years, etc., but if your firm tells you that you have to wear a suit, good luck making those arguments to your managing partner.
got here from ms-jd, who's published multiple stories on "appropriate" attire.
this strikes me as pretty classic fudyy-duddy-ness. I don't find it offensive, but I don't think it's particularly constructive or productive either.
i think any lawyer who's choosing a firm because they're "cool" has pretty much missed their vocation. go surf if you want to be cool. good laywers tend to be pretty nerdy - embrace it.
on the other hand, the obsession with elitism and hierarchy that infects every aspect of legal culture rarely adds anything of value to it - no one wins cases or better represents their client simply because they've got a fancier outfit. in some cases it may even be the opposite.
ha
haha
hahahaahhaahaha.
I have learned from this thread that I will take home more $$$ from my "TTT firm" in TN than I would as a "top-tier" new york associate.
Here's to making more than you pompous NY assholes. (Both in terms of absolute pay and comparative pay). Not to mention the cost of housing is 75% less.
boots wit the furrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!
what's next.... reeboks wit the strapssssssss?!
3:24 - a bit extreme on Jos. A Bank; obviously, you have to be a fool to pay full price, but I still like the clothes (at sale prices); plus, where else am I going to find dress pants in a 29" waist; if you know, please tell me, because apparently the rest of the world can barely squeeze its McD's eatin' butt into 32s (smallest size almost anywhere else), and I'm stuck getting everything taken in, which never looks as good as something originally made in my size, and I'm not ready to pay for bespoke
Wear a suit or find another job.
i know sara shikhman and she didn't get fired
I don't think Tom Mills said anything that can be fairly construed as sexist. However, to the extent that there is a problem, BigLaw is going about it all wrong. Lawyers who wear skirts 12 inches above the knees and skin-tight blouses are obviously those who have never made a court appearance. Perhaps such associates should be put on court duty for a while. A couple of days covering simultaneous appearances in 4 different courtrooms on 3 different floors, running up and down stairs while toting a briefcase and 4 redwells AND simultaneously talking on one's cell phone -- all while wearing a mini-skirt, a tight blouse and 4-inch heels -- and the ladies will make the appropriate adjustments to their wardrobe without the aid of a personal shopper.
All these female attorneys who want to go to work flaunting there genitalia, there is an industry that specializes in that where men pay to see such performances. I, a woman, and the general public which many are children, are not paying , nor are we requesting to see your "performance". When I see a woman dress like a slut, she looks like a slut, so I automatically think she is a slut because she is advertising and whether you women agree with me or not, you are advertising the message "I AM A LOOSE WOMAN, I WANT SEX WITH EVERY MAN I SEE, I HAVE NO MORALS, AND I HAVE NO SELF RESPECT BECAUSE IF I DID I WOULD CARE ABOUT HOW I DRESS AND HOW I LOOK IN PUBLIC". If you are a professional, and you go to work professionally dressed you give the appearance that you have it all together, that you are the top of your line. How you dress tells present clients, prospective clients, employers, judges, juries, and many "other people" whether you can be trusted or not, whether you have good judgment or not, whether you are dedicated and reliable or maybe just a hoar who likes to be liquored up. Now, I know I have upset every female attorney who likes to dress this way but as a woman also, I will always be a woman, that will never change. But, if I want to be a lady, then I have to dress like a lady, act like a lady, talk like a lady, walk like a lady, think like a lady. Another words, I have to put work in to it. If I were to go to work dressed like a high-priced call girl (a watered down name for this is "escort service"), I would not only send the powerful message "I'm trash", but also I would be a dangerous distraction. Nobody can concentrate on their work because of my exposed genitalia, so there is a decrease in work productivity, innocent unsuspecting male employees lose their jobs because I come in dressed with the message that I am looking for sex, so the poor guy propositions me and I have him fired for sexual harassment! Also, when you dress this way, you are hurting the company's professional image. If you go to your child's school for a parent-teacher meeting, how that teacher dresses is going to tell you about her/him. If you go to the doctor,how the nurses/ doctor dresses is going to tell you about their professionalism. When you have a case and maybe you have to go to the police department for information to build your case, and you meet with the detective or investigating officer, how that officer/ detective dresses sends a powerful message and that officer/ detectives testimony can help you win a case or lose a case simply because of dress. If that officer/detective is professional looking then the officer /detective is believable. If the officer/detective is not professional in her/his appearance then nobody will believe them including you if you are trying to dispute the officer/detectives testimony. So why would it be any different for you? So women, be a Lady and put some clothes on!