Diamonds in the Rough: Open Thread on Offices in Secondary Markets That Pay the Full $160K Scale
(And a digression on Cadwalader in Charlotte)
Here’s an open thread request we’ve received from multiple sources. A representative message:
I’m trying to gather more info about firms / offices that pay NYC salary + NYC bonus in secondary markets. For example, I believe that Weil and Skadden both do in Dallas and Houston, but none of the other firms in Texas do. I don’t know if you’ve done a post about this before, but I think it might be interesting, because $205K goes really far in TX.Skadden Wilmington is another possible example.
That’s correct about Skadden in Wilmington. Another well-paying secondary market: Charlotte. A CLT tipster tells us: “Mayer Brown, Dechert, Dewey, and Cadwalader have all increased salaries to $160K here in Charlotte.”
Hold on a sec — Cadwalader? Didn’t they just lay off 35 lawyers, including some in Charlotte?
Yes, they did — but they also raised salaries for the survivors. More after the jump.
We understand that the CWT cuts in CLT focused on fairly junior associates. But the firm also used the occasion to get rid of some more senior “underperformers.” A source describes the Charlotte layoffs as “the dramatic end of a pruning that has been quietly going on for some time, as paralegals and staff have been cut recently, and some associates were offered buyouts before the end of last year.”
The combination of layoffs and pay raises didn’t go over well with some people in Charlotte. Some gossip making the rounds:
[T]he rumor going around Charlotte is that when [Cadwalader Chairman Robert Link] came down to the Charlotte office, at the same time he informed them they were letting anywhere between 9 and 15 of them go (about 10-15 percent of the associate ranks), he also informed them that those in Charlotte that were not getting fired were getting salary bumps to the NY scale.Not only is this in poor taste, but there aren’t that many law firms currently on the $160K scale in Charlotte….
If the rumor is true, then the meeting basically went: “Congratulations, we’re giving all of you that survived 10% raises in salary. Unfortunately, in order to do that, we just fired 10 to 15 percent of your fellow associates so we could afford it, without increasing our total compensation expense. I’m sure they don’t hate you. Enjoy your extra money, I sure will!!! Hugs, Bob Link.”
Although I guess you could always spin it as laying off people in Charlotte due to market reasons, and laying off people in New York to cover the Charlotte associate raises. I’m sure that would sit well with the people in New York.
Note that this is just rumor and speculation — not the CWT raise to $160K in Charlotte, which is confirmed, but the description of the meeting with Bob Link. Feel free to contact us if you have firsthand knowledge.
(141) Comments
Comments
Figgity-First
These diamonds are making me firsty.
What about the Biglaw offices in Denver?
what about raising ny?
I'll put in a plug for my firm/office. I've worked at three other top firms outside of NYC and Weil Dallas is far and away the best of the best. Good people, good work, good morale, good pay, good city. Best kept secret in BigLaw.
"what about raising ny?"
STFU about NY. The thread is about secondary markets.
Weil in Miami pays NYC market.
Hunton is Miami pays DC scale, but lower bonus.
I'll put in a plug for my firm/office. I've worked at three other top firms outside of NYC and Weil Dallas is far and away the best of the best. Good people, good work, good morale, good pay, good city. Best kept secret in BigLaw.
Sounds good but the Skadden Wilmington office bills more hours per associate than any other Skadden office.
Weil in Miami pays NYC market.
Hunton is Miami pays DC scale, but lower bonus.
I'll put in a plug for my firm/office. I've worked at three other top firms outside of NYC and Weil Dallas is far and away the best of the best. Good people, good work, good morale, good pay, good city. Best kept secret in BigLaw.
NYC has gone 190. The news comes out on Monday next week.
Womble pays $130k in Atlanta. Sweet deal. Oh wait, everyone else pays $145k...
"Skadden Wilmington office bills more hours per associate than any other Skadden office"
What else are you going to do in Wilmington other than bill hours?
Womble pays $130k. Awesome deal. Oh, wait...
Fish pays 160 in Minneapolis, that's a hell of a deal
Womble pays $130k. Awesome deal. Oh, wait...
Does anybody know about an office that has good people, good work, good morale and good pay, and is in a good city? Anybody?
CWT Charlotte is a sinking ship. Even after the firings, they still lost more associates who left on their own. The partners in charge are difficult to work for, to say the least. By far the most miserable workplace in all of Charlotte, legal or otherwise.
Can you put in a plug for your firm/office? I hope you would.
I couldn't agree more. Weil Dallas is outstanding. I would work at this place even if they didnt pay me. The partners really care about our develpment not only as lawyers, but also as valued members of the community. I feel wanted, and valued here and get self affirmation every day. Kudos Weil Dallas for making practicing law, not only profitable, but deeply satisfying.
Hip Hip Hooray for Weil Dallas!
Does anybody know about an office that has good people, good work, good morale and good pay, and is in a good city? Anybody?
Bob Link is a mother fucking trainwreck.
I wonder if it is a coincidence that you rarely hear from No-Use-For-Yale-Link these days, and instead Greg Markel (a Yale man) has been the acting mouthpiece for the happiest place on earth.
Hunton, McGuire and Troutman all pay 145 in Richmond.
Bob Link is a mother fucking trainwreck.
I wonder if it is a coincidence that you rarely hear from No-Use-For-Yale-Link these days, and instead Greg Markel (a Yale man) has been the acting mouthpiece for the happiest place on earth.
Is Alston & Bird CLT paying $160K? I know it is confirmed that Winston & Strawn is on the $160K scale in CLT.
Any firms in Sac-town that pay $160k?
I'll put in a dig for my firm/office. I've worked at three other top firms outside of NYC and Cadwalader Charlotte is far and away the worst of the worst. Bad people, bad work, bad morale, good pay (if you don't get fired), bad city. Hopefully not a secret in BigLaw any longer.
I was under the impression that CWT Charlotte raised months ago! Are you telling me that my months of annoyance about them getting overpaid was unnecessary until recently?
I enjoyed my time at CWT Charlotte. Aside from the general Biglaw frustration--which eventually led me in-house--I couldn't complain. Good people, good pay, good work. I guess, as with practically any Biglaw firm, one's experience depends primarily on luck in placement.
Hogan & Hartson, DLA Piper, and Venable all pay $160,000 in Baltimore. There is some compression in DLA Piper relative to the DC office though. DLA Piper and Venable just moved to 160 this year; Hogan moved at the same time they moved in DC. Bonuses are not on the NY scale though. Still, the money goes a long way in Baltimore.
Fish & Richardson: Atlanta, Minneapolis, Wilmington, Austin and Dallas all on NYC scale
Hartford
I need to get the heck out of NYC when Skadden - Wilmington is paying $160K.
so Dechert pays 160 in Charlotte but not its home office? wtf?
NY BigLaw on secondary market scale.
Sonnenschein in Phoenix is at $150k. Which is like $250k anywhere else.
Yeah, lets talk about the Whale....
Dechert and Bingham?? Others??
I have 550 square feet, and not much else.
The great part about Skadden Wilmington is that it pays NYC bonus, while many of the other firms mentioned simply pay $160K with cruddy bonus.
Can anyone else comment on the quality of life at Skadden in Wilmington.
This is depressing.
Guys in my high school got paid 160k in their secondary markets all the time, it was no big deal.
2:25 - Dewey Lebeouf and Bracewell & Guliani as well
has dechert charlotte raised?
Dechert CLT pays the NY $160K scale, and they made it retroactive to 1/08. Great place, great people, good morale and the firm never seems to nickle and dime its associates.
Can anyone else comment on the quality of WORK at Skadden in Wilmington? Even if the hours are long, is it good experience or just second fiddle to NY?
NY to 175!
Susman Godfrey paid 160k this year (Texas), with 60k minimum bonus. Not bad.
2:28: Agreed. The secondary market threads hate hearing from us, especially because we bitch and moan about NY at 160k while their markets are at 160k as well.
I'm happy for the secondary markets, but this is still depressing for us in NY. It's so damn expensive to live here (the argument to get out isn't a good one) and the work demand is high (higher than many [not all] secondary markets now at 160k). Hmpf.
As far as I can tell (from research, not first-hand experience), a fair sized handful of Austin firms pay on the NYC scale, including Baker Botts, Vinson & Elkins, Fulbright & Jaworski, Weil, DLA Piper, and a few others. But the job market in Austin is extremely tight for all professionals.
2:08--I doubt it. Orrick pays $145k in Sacto. Are there any other big firms there?
Gentlemen in my preparatory school frequently received monetary compensation based on the prevailing standard in Manhattan in exchange for professional services performed in appurtenant offices. It was not a conspicuous event.
WSGR in Austin, yo
Incredibly, the Philadelphia market is still at $145K (Dechert and Morgan, at least; the others pay $135K). This is getting ridiculous.
Fraternity Lothario rocks!
how can dechert Charlotte raise, while Dechert philadelphia has not?
1:45
Denver has a few at the 160k scale. No compression either:
Arnold & Palmer
MoFo
Cooley
Hogan & Hartson
Townsend and Townsend
Gibson Dunn
Are Dewey, Bingham, Dechert, and Bracewell any different to work at than the "big" Connecticut firms (RobCole, McCarter, Shipman, Edwards Angel...)? Do any of these firms pay NYC bonuses?
2:36 - but you get to live in NYC instead of BFE
In addition to having 5 offices at 160, Fish & Richardson pretty much pays NY Bonus scale (without the special bonus).
Out of curiosity, do Weil (Dallas) and Skadden (Wilmington) pay the special NY bonus?
what's BFE?
atlanta had paul hastings move to $160k but with compression.
i think a firm called dow lohnes pays full nyc scale.
woof
Who gives a crap about Sacramento? It isn't even a secondary market, it is a fourthandary market. That whole area sucks, who would ever live there?
Here is the list:
Primary Market: NY
Secondary Market: DC, LA, SF, Dallas, Philly, Boston, CLT, ATL, oh... whatever, stop being batches and move to NY.
@2:37
Just because first-years get 160k *does not* mean that *any* Austin firm is on the "NYC pay scale." Bonuses are substantially lower and compression means you're getting less than 5% annual salary increases
HTFH
2:48(1), with respect to Skadden, the firm pays NY salary / bonus (including, this year, special bonus) in every domestic office so long as you hit a measly 1600 hrs. Below that, you get half.
I believe Townsend and Townsend and Crew (an IP boutique based in SF) pays the uncompressed NYC market scale for salaries in all offices, including Denver and Seattle, which makes it one of the very few firms in either city to pay the true 160 scale (or 160 at all). So if you're an IP lawyer that is the place to be in Denver or Seattle. Not as special if you're in SF or DC where you have plenty of competition at that level.
2:54 has provided the only appropriate response.
BFE = Bum Fuck Egypt
Do biglaw firms have offices in Denver because there is good work there, or is it because partners want to live in Denver?
most of you people are all law students b/c you haven't a clue.
Most top NYC "Wall Street type" firms - Skadden, Clearly, Debevoise, Dewey, Milbank etc all pay the same salaries across their US offices. They also pay the same bonus to all their associates b/c they all bill out at the same rate regardless if they are in NY or DC.
Most big Texas firms start at $160k these days, but the compression is horrendous. Fourth years at my old big Texas firm are making $170k, which is considered "with class" and is not an anomaly. Bonuses are nowhere near NY levels, either, although they are decent.
3:03 is angry, he works at CWT.
@2:48: Weil and Skadden pay the same bonuses, including special bonuses, across every office.
2:37 -- Mofo is there, but I haven't been able to find their salary scale in the Sacramento office. Pillsbury Winthrop and Greenberg Traurig have offices there as well.
"It isn't even a secondary market, it is a fourthandary market."
The term you seek is quaternary market. Now, get back to your doc review.
2:44:
1st Question - No.
2nd Question - No, not quite, but some are close. Don't think any have announced yet this year.
Susman Godfrey pays 160 in all offices. Good luck getting hired, though.
Has Katten announced bonuses yet?
2:34:
Skadden-Wilmington pulls in some good deals but typically plays Delaware local counsel to Skadden-NYC deal work.
Sorry, don't mean to interrupt, but can we now talk about the likelihood of NY raising?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Corndog_Day
3:15. Get back to working on your sense of humor. The term I seek is twaternary market.
Who cares about Sac, who cares about the correct term for the twaternary market, and who cares about you?
You probably work for me.
3:22:
Interesting to know. Can you comment at all about the Restructuring work in Wilmington?
This makes a fellow feel better about living in a 2nd tier city: http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html. Looks like I'd need to bring in $374,223.84 in New York. Are 5th years getting that?
Hartford - from a prior thread on this subject:
160k
Bingham McCutchen
Bracewell
Brown Rudnick
Dechert
Dewey & LeBoeuf
140k
Edwards Angel
135k
McCarter & English
130k
Axinn, Veltrop
120k
Day Pitney
115k
Jorden Brut
Robinson & Cole
105k
Thelen Reed
Wiggin & Dana
3:33:
Sorry, I don't have any experience in that regard.
3:36, thanks anyway.
Likelihood of NYC raising = not a chance in hell this year.
3:41 FTW!
Anyone have any thoughts on Weil Houston? Is it similar to Weil Dallas (which we all know about)?
3:22 - completely incorrect.
http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=131034
OMM is in trouble. PHJW is looking good, big three changing?
3:22 is not correct.
I used to bulls-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home; they're not much bigger than two meters.
care to respond then 3:54?
3:22 - incorrect, re: corporate work.
3:49 & 3:54:
Okay.
3:35, any info on what the non-national firm's bonus numbers look like?
DLA Piper pays an uncompressed 160k scale in most secondary markets. Their bonuses are pretty good - though not quite NY market. Is that right, DLA associates?
Can anyone else comment on the quality of WORK at Skadden in Wilmington? Even if the hours are long, is it good experience or just second fiddle to NY?
__________________________________
It's Wilmington, De. They probably collect on delinquent credit card accounts, and take overflow customer service calls from Bangalore.
KL Gates in Dallas raised to 160 pushed by the merger!
NY to 190!
I did some interviewing in Seattle, and they pay pretty low... and Seattle isn't all that cheap.
YEAH BUT SECONDARY MARKETS DON"T GET TO HAVE A MANNING... 18-1
What about the Colts--idiot
anybody know what percentage bonuses get taxed at? It's higher than normal, no?
CWT charlotte was promised this bump one year ago when they declared a new "one firm" policy in pay scale. CLT was bumped to 145k at that time as part of a phase-in of the new scale. If they had not followed through with the raise it would have been even more fodder for CWT hate.
If memory serves, bonus is taxed at ordinary income rates. Sometimes employers subject it to a 40% withholding because it is considered supplemental income.
jones day and SSD at 145 in cleveland and i think columbus
LAT -- We need a "list of shame" for firms that pay 160k in some secondary markets (i.e. Charlotte) but not their home market...
Dechert and MLB I'm looking at you...
That OMM article is kind of scary. 15 "performance based" layoffs? that sounds unusually high....
I don't know why I'm bothering to reply with this, but bonuses are taxed at ordinary income rates. People think they are taxed at higher rates because taxes are typically withheld as a higher percentage than with ordinary wages. Although the IRS allows different kinds of withholding methods for bonus income, most employers leave it to their payroll software, which nearly always over-withholds because it doesn't treat the bonus as a one-time payment, and ignores total annual salary or prior paychecks. For example, if you're getting a $35,000 bonus check, withholding is calculated as if $35k is your normal payroll amount, so withholding is made at a higher marginal tax rate than necessary.
And this is an elementary point, but withholding and actual tax are two different things. You'll get the amount that was over-withheld back when you file.
Does anyone know when Dewey LeBoeuf are paying their bonuses this year?
Abrams & Lasiter in Wilmington, DE supposedly pay significantly above NY market.
160 in the Twin Cities (Fish) is obscene. Most firms there pay $120-125.
For comparison, Foley pays $135K in the home office in Milwaukee while paying $160 like everyone and their dog for their office in Chicago.
$135K in Milwaukee ain't exactly chicken feed.
See also: Chicago BigLaws living in SE Wisconsin just off the Hiawatha line.
I'll put in a plug for my former firm/office. I've worked at four other top 3 firms, and Skadden Wilmington is far and away the best of the best. I would work there even if they didn't pay me. Incredible people, daily handjobs at your desk (self service, alas), incredible morale (see previous), rock star pay, a truly top tier city, culturally. Best kept secret in BigLaw. When they fired me, the even paid my full bonus.
5:19, are Jones Day and SSD both already at $145k in Ohio? I know people talk about compression, but that's a lot for the midwest.
Late in the going here... but I can tell you that Fish and WSGR in Austin don't have compression and at least my buddy at WSGR said he got the same bonus as the home office.
Not the Latham bonus, but it beats the hell out of what the Texas firms are paying
Can anyone confirm the rumor that McDermott Will & Emery is increasing base salary by 10k in all offices (NY/DC/Boston will = $170,000)?
Lots of talk in my law school's corridors.
Yes, Jones Day is at $145 in both Cleveland and Columbus.
And for the last time to the New Yorkers - yes, your cost of living is much higher.... BECAUSE YOU GET TO LIVE IN NEW YORK.
8:59--
Heard that about MWE-NY. Haven't heard anything about DC or Boston.
ACK!! ahhhhk ack ack ack? ACK AAAACKKK!!!! ACK ACK ACHHHHHK ack ackkkkkkk!!!! ack ack?
I wouldn't work in Cleveland for $190.
-
Midwest pay at the nationals and major regionals is fantastic when you factor in cost of living. Maybe not enough to get people to move out to Minneapolis or Milwaukee or Indianapolis, but for locals, it is an excellent deal. And the public schools are high quality (at least in the places where people who make $120+ to start live), so cancel another huge expense out of your budget if you have/want kids.
When you start having NYC scale pay on top of all that other stuff, it just gets silly.
I don't know about McDermott, but I heard that WilmerHale is increasingby 10k. Paul Hastings too.
MWE TO 1 BILLION DOLLARS.
New York gets screwed. You guys need to move and quit throwing away money.
nice to seen you representing on ATL ack guy
PS love your work!
SSD at $145? I thought they were still at $130 in OH?
Any word on what the Texas firms did with bonuses and the salary scale this year? V&E? BB? Have they released that info?
I own a horse.
Market rate in West Palm Beach is 130K, which comes with 80 degree weather in January and 3,000 square foot three year old homes for $400,000 only a 20 minute drive north on I-95.
Suck it NYC!
Anyone else think those overly-positive Weil Dallas comments came from the recruiting staff?
In San Diego, a few firms pay market base, including Cooley and Wilson. Latham is there with the full bonuses, too.
3:50 might be right. PHJW is certainly doing better than OMM - beyond even the fact it beats the bonuses. "The Big 3" certainly won't be a term known/used by the time the current law students become partners.
Does anyone know what Dow Lohnes's (small) Atlanta office is like? From what I can tell, it's the only firm in Atlanta that pays on the true 160K scale, without compression (although I have no idea what the bonuses are like).
Also, although Paul Hastings just raised to 160K (with compression) in Atlanta, I've heard negative statements about the office's environment. Anyone care to comment?
I interviewed at CWT Charlotte a few years back. When one lawyer was selling me on how the office did all the "big NY deal work" he mentioned how they handled the sale of the Twin Towers. Then he threw in how 10 minutes after the first plane hit, he was on the phone with the client trying to work out the details of the transaction, and how he ended up working late on 9/11. I couldn't get to the door fast enough.
A word about Wilmington, Delaware:
It's about 30 miles south of Philly (so it's in the "exurbs" of Philly), and it is definitely a FAMILY town...no singles need apply! Get your groove on Philly, 'cause it ain't happening in Wilmington!!
Average age of residents has got to be over 45 y.o. here, based on my observations the past 5 years.
Also, the people in Wilmington are very narrow-minded...I've lived in a couple of major (top 10 in population) cities in this country, and it's a very closed-minded, bland and non-diverse community, if that means anything to you. Go to Philly for your diversity...or Baltimore (which is about 65 miles south).
I'm in-house...and the 160K, while it may sound like a lot for Wilmington, but believe it or not, the cost of living here --while it does not compare with NYC or L.A. or D.C.--is higher than it should be for a second tier market. 160K does not go as far as it should in Wilmington, even with the downturn in the real estate market. FWIW, I hear that it is cheaper to get a very nice place in Balto, if you must be on the I-95 corridor.
When the MARC rail system finally gets extended into Delaware, I think more people will be commuting from DC and vice-versa. We already have many people who commute to NYC area every day from Wilmington, which explains why the real estate prices skyrocketed about 4 years ago.
9:56:
When did you get in-house? Did you work Wilmington Biglaw prior to that? Trying to determine how easy/desirable it would be to do transactional work for a few years and then lateral to in-house in DE.
Does anyone know what Dewey Jacksonville pays?