Nationwide Layoff Watch: Dechert Decks A Baker’s Dozen?
Don’t believe everything you read in these pages. If a gossip site isn’t flat-out wrong a sizable percentage of the time, it’s not sufficiently gossipy.
But we were right about something being afoot at Dechert LLP. This morning we wrote:
We’ve been hearing vague rumblings of something about to go down over at Dechert LLP. Said rumblings are reminiscent of what we heard in the days and hours leading up to Cadwalader’s Thursday Morning Massacre….We hear that certain groups at Dechert are super-slow, and morale in some quarters is super-low. These are, of course, often harbingers of lawyer layoffs.
Now we learn this, from Gina Passarella in the Legal Intelligencer:
The slowing economy has hit home at Dechert which has just let go 13 associates strictly in its finance and real estate practice, according to a source inside the firm….Dechert has given the 13 associates, who have worked in Dechert offices throughout the United States, until the close of business Tuesday to leave. No one was asked to leave Friday, the source said….
There were no additional layoffs prior to today, but some attorneys were shifted into other practice areas, the firm source said. The layoffs comprise less than 10 percent of the 167 attorneys listed in Dechert’s finance and real estate practice, which includes mortgage finance, structured finance and securitization, investment, and mergers and acquisitions.
The attorneys who are leaving were offered three months severance, six months of paid medical benefits and transition placement support, the source said.
Three months seems to be “market” in terms of severance. There was some fear that laid-off Dechert associates were going to get less.
ATL gets a shout-out in the piece:
Legal blog Above The Law has reported extensively on associate and staff layoffs across the country. The reports included associate layoffs at Thacher Proffitt, Cadwalader Wickersham & Taft and Clifford Chance, mainly in the structured finance, real estate and capital markets practices of those firms.Today, Above The Law posted a blog on rumors of low morale at Dechert, questioning whether layoffs were imminent.
The article closes with a helpful overview of the layoff landscape:
Dechert’s news puts the U.S. legal scene over the 100-attorney mark in terms of attorney layoffs and offered buyouts this economic cycle. According to data collected by The American Lawyer, 35 attorneys were laid off at Cadwalader Wickersham; 24 Thacher Proffitt mid-levels were offered buyouts plus an additional five first-years took optional buyouts; six Clifford Chance associates were laid off and 23 associates at McKee Nelson took buyouts.
Check out the full article, which also discusses Dechert’s record-setting year in 2007 — $836 million in gross revenue, and more than $2.3 million in profits per equity partner — by clicking here.
Update (5:15 PM): Okay, we’re confused. We just received this email, sent out by firm chairman Barton Winokur, and forwarded to us by a Dechert source. Our source had heard that the 13 were being laid off. But this email implies otherwise:
From: Winokur, Barton
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 4:37 PM
To: ALL Dechert Users
Subject:
Due to the major shift in market conditions affecting client demands in our Finance and Real Estate practice area, we currently do not have sufficient work for all the associates in FRE. As a consequence, we have told 13 associates in the U.S. FRE group that we see no demand for them in that group in the foreseeable future. However, due to increased and substantial demand in other practice areas, we will be offering those lawyers the opportunity to work in those other groups.
Barton J. Winokur
Dechert LLP
Update (5:40 PM): We have reached out to Barton Winokur for clarification. We will let you know if and when he gets back to us.
Update (6:20 PM): The Legal Intelligencer has revised its piece somewhat, in light of the Winokur email:
The slowing economy has hit home at Dechert which just issued layoff notices to 13 associates strictly in its finance and real estate practice, according to a source inside the firm.Shortly after the firm confirmed the planned layoffs, the source said Chairman Barton J. Winokur issued a statement that the firm would then offer the 13 associates positions in other practice groups. [Reprints the email.]
There was no word as to whether those associates, who had been given severance packages, accepted the revised offer to switch practices.
Update (6:35 PM): We’re hearing conflicting things about whether these 13 lawyers really are being given the opportunity to switch practice groups, or whether they’re being laid off outright, with additional lawyers getting moved internally.
We will continue to monitor and report about what’s going down at Dechert. If you can clarify this somewhat murky situation for us, please email us. Thanks.
Layoffs Hit Dechert Following Record Financial Year [Legal Intelligencer]




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first to the unemployment window
I wish Eliza would get laid off.
were they laid off or just shuffled?
WE ARE ALL FUCKED!!! AHHH!
Due to the major shift in market conditions affecting client demands in our Finance and Real Estate practice area, we currently do not have sufficient work for all the associates in FRE. As a consequence, we have told 13 associates in the U.S. FRE group that we see no demand for them in that group in the foreseeable future. However, due to increased and substantial demand in other practice areas, we will be offering those lawyers the opportunity to work in those other groups.
Barton J. Winokur
Dechert LLP
nice work Lat
Lat just appended the Winokur email as an update. He seems confused as well.
Are these layoffs or just moves?
Sorry 5:04, she's just getting laid.
Awaiting Dechert's assurances that all the fired attorneys were terrible lawyers and that everything is going great!
Renegotiate NAFTA now! Canadians and Mexicans are stealing FRE jobs! We need to raise labor and environmental standards in Canadian and Mexican law firms or nobody's job will be safe.
The article makes the point that they have until Tuesday COB to vacate; that they won't be forced to leave Friday. Um, really, what's the difference? Wouldn't that suck...to be told you're fired, but "don't worry, you can still around for two more days..." Are you supposed to thank them?
Now how about following up what's going on at paul weiss?
$2.3mil profits per equity partner at Dechert = associate layoffs?!?
Well, I'm not joining that firm next year...
Just think about all the money Dechert will save though when it closes the doors on its Charlotte office and stops paying rent there.
Dechert Charlotte to 15!!! (lawyers that is)
Dechert's website shows 114 associates in finance/real estate. 93 in the US. So this is 15% cut.
This is wealth redistribution... some poor person with no credit and no income, takes a mortgage and defaults sending economy into tail spin and depriving well educated (albeit mediocre) lawyers their place at the trough! Hedge Funds and Banks have lost BILLIONS on these bad mortgages and mortgage back securities. DAMN POOR PEOPLE! Whoever dreamed up making a leveraged bet on poor people's ability to destroy wealth should be brained.
Anyone have news regarding Milbank layoffs?
Hahaha spaghetti to 190K!
Dear Charlotte Dechert Associates-
It has come to our attention that we only have two partners in the charlotte office and only a total of 15 attorneys. Due to this fact, and the fact that our business relationships with Bank of America and Wachovia are grinding to a halt, and because despite what Charlotte lovers may say, there isn't a chance in hell of other major financial clients moving here, ever, we will be closing the office. You are all welcome to find jobs elsewhere, but no one is hiring, so you should really get out now, while you still can.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Your friend,
Reality
Dear Reality,
King Kong ain't got nothin on us!
Your friend,
Charlotte Dechert Associates.
Is anyone outside of Dechert beginning to see why associate morale is so low at Dechert, why associates say the leadership of the firm is a bunch of lying sacks of shit, and why, at the end of the day, most people hate working there with a passion?
It's not, as some trolling Dechert partners (and boot-licking gunner associates with shit-stained noses) have suggested on this site, that Dechert associates are lazy, whiny little bitches. It's because of shit like this.
I must say, though, that this starkly two-faced behavior is bold, even for His Royal Lie-ness Winokur.
Boot-licking associates who drink the Kool Aid are present at every firm. They're the scum of the earth.
every single poster here is sooo freaking whiny. get over it.
Ah, one of the boot-lickers weighs in at 7:39 p.m. I almost feel like I know who you are, but as 7:31 said, you guys are like tribbles. So I probably don't.
Dechert is a TTT!
Mr Dechert, have you ever retired a human by mistake?
It's a sad time when decent attorneys lose their jobs and ass-kissers stay. The people let go were only offered temporary work on a short-term project after the news spread to the bloggers....
In addition, Dechert openly harbors partners that sleep with associates.
is there actually some widely known story of a dechert partner sleeping with an associate? or are ppl just saying this because it happens in a lot of places?
So looks like Lat is keeping the new gal... this is from her blog:
That's a Wrap!
I just wrapped my first day blogging over at ATL. Whew. Blogging for a living is mentally tiring, but I enjoyed several things about it. I got to write about things that I find interesting, and I liked the fast pace. I get distracted easily, so it's nice to have a forum for writing short, direct posts.
The process starts with reading a vast amount of news and commentary, then filtering what news you do or don't have something funny to say about. After you figure out what you can write about, you have to filter it again for relevancy. Then you write the post. It goes like this over and over again, until the day is over.
It was brutal but exciting. David and I did a tag-team effort today, so he could show me how to use the system. Next Friday, I'm doing it all alone. Talk about pressure.
Overall, people have been pretty encouraging, I'm ecstatic about the opportunity.
6:26, layoffs at Milbank? Eh? What made you ask that question?
Does anyone else have a clue what 6:26 is talking about?
Quoting 7:01: "Is anyone outside of Dechert beginning to see why associate morale is so low at Dechert, why associates say the leadership of the firm is a bunch of lying sacks of shit, and why, at the end of the day, most people hate working there with a passion?"
Delete "Dechert" and insert "Paul Hastings" and the same is true. They already fired four associates...probably more to come...
Re: the sex rumors, I haven't heard of any relationships between partners and associates (that would be too close to normal human behavior for this place) but know the London office has a few partners who have propositioned trainees and sexually harassed associates. SOP here.
10.02: Dechert TTT? I think you need to get the story right.
Source: The Lawyer US Rev Counter Feb 19, 2008
http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=131327&d=415&h=417&f=416
Rank Firm Rev ($m) PEP ($m)
1 DLA Piper 2,100 1.28
2 Skadden 2,020 2.28
3 Latham 2,005 2.27
4 Baker 1,830 1.06
5 Sidley 1,390 1.38
6 White & Case 1,370 1.67
7 Jones Day 1,300 0.77
8 Greenberg 1,200 1.30
9 Mayer Brown 1,180 1.24
10 Weil Gotshal 1,180 2.11
11 Dewey 1,000 1.57
12 Paul Hastings 980 1.92
13 WilmerHale 940 1.06
14 O'Melveny 934 1.64
15 Shearman 921 1.85
16 Gibson 908 1.90
17 Morrison 894 1.27
18 Reed Smith 890 1.00
19 Cleary 890 2.14
20 Hogan 850 1.19
21 Dechert 836 2.3
22 Winston 697 1.28
23 Milbank 643 2.53
24 Proskauer 627 1.55
25 Willkie Farr 600 2.23
26 Pillsbury 590 0.99
27 Cadwalader 590 2.72
28 Baker Botts 578 1.30
29 Alston & Bird 518 1.00
30 Heller Ehrman 490 1.01
10.02: Dechert TTT? I think you need to get the story right.
Source: The Lawyer US Rev Counter Feb 19, 2008
http://www.thelawyer.com/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=131327&d=415&h=417&f=416
Rank Firm Rev ($m) PEP ($m)
1 DLA Piper 2,100 1.28
2 Skadden 2,020 2.28
3 Latham 2,005 2.27
4 Baker 1,830 1.06
5 Sidley 1,390 1.38
6 White & Case 1,370 1.67
7 Jones Day 1,300 0.77
8 Greenberg 1,200 1.30
9 Mayer Brown 1,180 1.24
10 Weil Gotshal 1,180 2.11
11 Dewey 1,000 1.57
12 Paul Hastings 980 1.92
13 WilmerHale 940 1.06
14 O'Melveny 934 1.64
15 Shearman 921 1.85
16 Gibson 908 1.90
17 Morrison 894 1.27
18 Reed Smith 890 1.00
19 Cleary 890 2.14
20 Hogan 850 1.19
21 Dechert 836 2.3
22 Winston 697 1.28
23 Milbank 643 2.53
24 Proskauer 627 1.55
25 Willkie Farr 600 2.23
26 Pillsbury 590 0.99
27 Cadwalader 590 2.72
28 Baker Botts 578 1.30
29 Alston & Bird 518 1.00
30 Heller Ehrman 490 1.01
8:35 -- what kind of stupid list is that. Most of the top AmLaw 100 firms are missing. Is this just for London or something?
LAT -- WHY ARE YOU NOT COVERING THIS STORY:
http://www.abajournal.com/news/special_master_says_coughlin_stoia_paid_for_stolen_coke_documents/
"Which firms weathered the credit crunch best in 2007? The Lawyer in New York reveals all US firm’s financial results as they happen."
Waiting eagerly for the 2008 AmLaw 100 rankings (disclosing 2007 figures), to be released in April.
March 2009:
Dechert announced today that it is opening a new Charlotte office in light of the pick-up in the economy and demand for finance lawyers in Charlotte.
Sincerely,
Cyclical Market
8:40 -- "Last week, The Lawyer launched its twice-weekly New York news bulletin. Today another innovation; a rolling revenue counter showing US firms' results as they happen."
the key is "as they happen." This list includes firms that have announced their 2007 financials.
The key here is Dechert PEP ($m)
Ouch...
See dad, I told you it wouldn't play well to announce PPP and layoffs on the same day.
Why is there so much focus on the 3 layoffs in Charlotte? There were 10 more in other cities. Is there some particular history that singles the Charlotte office out for so much ill will?
It is 100% true that a partner in the Charlotte office was/is sleeping with a second year. It began a year ago and because she was getting unfair treatment and passing work down to 5th and 6th years, people became quite angry. After multiple complaints she was transferred to the NY office where the relationship continued. Eventually she was forced out but not before numerous employees quit and/or were let go because of complaining about the relationship. All partners were aware of the situation and the complaints and did nothing until recently. This same partner has this reputation from his previous firms as well. Total sleaze and father of the year.
I think the big deal about the Charlotte office is that it's such a small office. 1/5 of the FRE attorneys in Charlotte were just let go whereas the NY and Philly office have about 3 times as many....
Is the partner still at the CLT office? If so, there are only 2 partners at the CLT office--
if anyone is out there--what would you recommend to someone that is going to summer at the Dechert CLT office?
Look somewhere else, if you've already accepted an offer then take it, but if you're just summering, then come down here, but think heavily about dropping again in the fall during OCI. Regardless of what people say about charlotte rebounding. There are no jobs here. None. And when/if it does rebound, there are already a lot of people ahead of you in the line to get them. To me, that's just too much risk. there are no other options for finance lawyers in charlotte but to move.
The reason that it's such a big deal in charlotte is that everyone in charlotte does finance work. And we've seen the market decrease a lot over the last few months. There are people that were laid off back in october and november that still can't find jobs and have no hopes of finding one in charlotte. Every firm has a hiring freeze on right now (meaning the nationals) in anything finance related, and even though people brag about how great it is and that there are firms moving in, they aren't actually adding lawyers. Sonnenschein has shrunk since it broke off from Kilpatrick Stockton. Dechert is down to 15 from almost 50 a few years ago. King & Spalding can't get any traction after they moved in. Cadwalader is down to 80 attorneys from almost 120 a short while ago.
Basically, the reason it's such a big deal here, is that these offices aren't diversified, and it's not one office here or one firm there. It is the whole market in Charlotte that's shrinking because the only reason major firms were here in the first place was to do banking work. Everything else is just ancillary services.
It looks like some of the attorneys in Charlotte are doing something else - investment management(?) No partners though. What's the story there? They affected by layoffs/slowdown?
12:51 - i thought the 4 fired associates were let go a few months back. were those the ones in RE?
or are you referring to a new batch?
does charlotte do a lot of bank financing like credit agreements and stuff or just securitization?
in my nyc firm, bank finance is still OK.
10:53 - As a default position, you should go.
If you are a 1L, it doesn't matter what you do and money is money.
If you are a 2L, the other firms you interviewed with have long since set their summer classes. As a general rule, this is way too late to try to get into another summer associate program.
That said, you're a nascent professional, so take some initiative.
If you hit it off really well with the recruiting boss at another firm (not one who does work in Charlotte since all those offices are finance driven), some specific feelers explaining your situation in detail and inquiring if there's any shot can't hurt. Backing out on offers is bad and this sort of thing is rare as hell, but the situation in Charlotte is somewhat uniquely bad with almost all work being a type of work that is not being done now.
Better, if Dechert interviewed at your school for more than the Charlotte office, would be contacting the Dechert recruiting people and ask how they are handling it and if they are doing office rotations or something else to compensate for there being no work for anyone in Charlotte. They are not exactly unaware of what is going on.
If Dechert didn't interview at your school for anything other than Charlotte and you don't have a really good contact who could work a miracle at a different "close call" callback firm, go to Charlotte, don't count on an offer and blast out resumes. Firms will certainly understand this situation. It's certainly not great, but this situation is not great in general.
the firms paying 160 in charlotte do almost exclusively securitization work ... there are "other firms" that do "other" stuff ... but the "major" firms really only do securitization work. Now, Mayer has a litigation group, and Alston & Bird does some IP work, but CWT, Dechert, Dewey, Sonnenschein, Winston ... all of these places are almost exclusively securitization work, and it is the cash cow of everyone else, too
12:33 - Dechert seems to have a few "financial services" lawyers in Charlotte, whatever that means. Is that an alternative for summers, or just another word for the same thing?
9:40
Why don't you give us their names if you're so well informed? There is a fine line here that you're obviously not willing to cross. And for good reasons.
11:54 -
In reality, it's another word for the same thing. They will naturally try and "creep" their FRE lawyers into other practice groups, and publishing on the website that they do other stuff is one way of making it look not that bad, but in actuality, without a partner having a book of alternative work, there isn't going to be enough to sustain a whole incoming class. remember this, they've got another 5 or 6 people that are coming in September to start full time, so chances are, they'll be slotted into the positions where there is enough work to go around.
Financial Services has a broad meaning in law firms. basically it means, "if it has something to do with money, we'd be happy to let you pay us to do it for you." So there's nothing to say that they won't have work in those groups. As i'm assuming you're an incoming summer, the question you have to ask is, will they have enough work to keep you busy in a year and a half. Look at it from the inside over the summer. See what transactions they're doing. See if you see any work expanding in certain areas. If you don't, I'd drop like crazy in the fall. If it looks like they're expanding their "financial services" practice then sure, why not. But be wary, where there is no partner support, you have to worry about just how strong the practice is. I don't know that I actually believe any Charlotte firm is going to be rapidly expanding anything over the next year, but that's just my opinion.
"Update (5:40 PM): We have reached out to Barton Winokur for clarification. We will let you know if and when he gets back to us."
Well, Lat? Anything? Keep on him -- he's shitting himself into a corner, and I just can't wait to see what the next turd consists of.
10:53 . . . Is it unethical for me to contact a a new firm --and is there any chance of that firm contacting my summer firm. I guess I don't want to ask around and not come up with anything, but somehow the Charlotte firm find out and I get screwed.
Maybe the offers of positions in other practice groups are really offers for staff attorney or contract attorney positions?
There is always that chance. And backing out of offers looks bad, but, so does a law firm that promises a bunch of second year law students the realistic possibility of jobs, only to leave them dangling in the wind.
The reality is this. If you've got a connection somewhere else, or some firm that really liked from OCI that was pushing for you, then it's worth reaching out to them and talking. If you go this summer to Dechert (which i'm guessing you're doing, as you should) and they don't appear to have work, then hit the pavement as quickly as possible and try and find something else. Somewhere else. At this point, you should be a lot more concerned with your own career, than you are with the feelings of a law firm that really doesn't care about you anyway.
There is nothing wrong with going to dechert this summer, getting an offer for next year, and sitting on it while you shop around to see if you can find anything else. Law firms, at least the top ones, are pretty competitive. I don't know that I would trust the confidentiality of the recruiters in Charlotte, but I know that in larger cities with more established and competitive markets, it would be highly highly unlikely for them to inform your firm you're looking. They're too professional about all of this to handle it otherwise.
If you're asking whether you should ditch this summer and try and find something else for this summer, I think that would be both ill advised, and implausible.
if it was plausible--would you think it still would be ill advised?
8:40 -- it's a list of 30 law firms. By definition most of AMLaw's top 100 will be missing. 70, bare minimum.
wow, I don't know what I would say about that. I think that unless you have a prior in, i would advise highly against it. I think it sends a red flag, even to those firms you'd be interested in working for over the summer that you'd jump ship from a prior engagement already, it lets them know that you'd jump their ship as soon as you didn't like something, so i don't know that it sends the best message. I think that if you have something somewhere in mind, that is continuing to offer or something like that, then maybe what you should do is call Dechert and talk to them about your conerns, although I would be wary that even that would potentially harm your possibilities, I'd leave that open for someone else to respond to, I just don't know that i'd recommend jumping summer ships this late in the game, especially if it's only for economic reasons as opposed to family or something like that ...
3:05--after thinking about it, that makes sense . . . thanks for the help
Every national firm -- except top firms like Cravath -- will be letting people go this year. I don't think jumping to another firm will do you much good; you'll likely end up getting no offered there as well at the end of the summer.
Tough times ahead people.
I really hope the laid off attorneys are able to find new employment. This economy really sucks...
1:40 - Unethical? Says who? NALP? Please. I know you're a law student but that's not an excuse to fully exit the real world and check your common sense at the door.
2:09 has it right - reach out and use good judgment while doing so, and you should be fine. DO NOT talk to Dechert about it. If anyone you reach out to gets all shifty and weird, or talks like 3:05, then stop talking to them and ask them politely to not mention it to anyone. They won't. Hopefully, 1 or 2 people will be helpful and you can stay in touch a little over the summer. By your 3L fall, you'll be glad you did.
Since 2L summers won't start working until Fall of 2010, would firms still feel reluctant to give out offers to all its summers? Or will firms no-offer a larger number of summers because the economy is slow now?
Hopefully the economy will pick up by 2010 and firms will anticipate work picking up again by that time.
3:35--Fall of 2009
I don't think Charlotte firms will be quick to no-offer, Fall of 2009 is still far away and the mere fact that these places aren't completely clossing up shop, means that they are at least somewhat optimistic that things will pick back up. We are talking about a handful of lay-offs, and while any lay-offs suck, there are still a lot of places holding on to associates.
If you really want to work in Charlotte, look for a big firm that does things other than securitization. They're out there--Katten, Moore & Van Allen, Womble Carlyle, Kennedy Covington, Alston & Bird, MacGuire Woods...they're all thriving in areas other than securitization/real estate. I know that the real estate and securitization associates at a few of those places (MVA, A&B, Katten, among others, I'm sure) have been assured that their jobs aren't going anywhere since the other practices in Charlotte are doing quite well at the moment. Like others have said, I would avoid the national firms that have set up small shops in Charlotte doing securitization only--even if the economy were great, that would be risky. There are a few firms in Charlotte that tied up a lot of the securitization work a long time ago (MVA, KilStock before the Sonnenschein splinter, Katten), and these new tiny offices have not been gaining much traction.
Man, I wish the economy never went south. This sucks!
4:20 -- anyone who suggest that Katten, A&B, or KilStock ever were, or are, good places to be in Charlotte clearly does not know that market.
That partner still works at the Charlotte office. There are three FSG attorneys in the Charlotte office but their group is still profitable.
I came out of law school when the economy stunk. These are some things that people used to survive then.
Think about whether a clerkship is possible. They can buy you and stressed firms a year or two while the economy recovers and increases your attractiveness as a candidate, which makes it less likely that you will be the one to have an offer revoked.
Take classes on areas that are apt to be hot in the economy over the next few years, like energy/environmental, bankruptcy, health care, tax or that are hot at the firm you have chosen, again so that you may have value when compared to the candidate that is a generalist, took classes like Law and Literature, and has no apparent sense of direction.
Consider an honors program with the Federal government. You get good experience, you are not going to get laid off and you can find a private sector job when you are done. Yes, the money is not the greatest, but it is better than no job at all.
Leverage your past work experience. If you know an industry, that can differentiate you too.
You cannot afford to take it easy at school on the theory that you have a job lined up. Your grades COULD matter if you find yourself wanting/needing to consider other options before or after your 2L summer. So keeping up an honors GPA (top 25%, cum laude, or whatever your school does) might be what it takes to get you in the door. Also remember that you need higher grades if you are at a lower ranked school.
Do what you can to get a job at Big Law or a highly regarded specialty boutique (like a tax, FDA or IP shop) and keep it, even if you hate it. You only need a year of experience. Then headhunters will be calling you with better options and you will be able to be more picky.
Above DC poster,
How is antitrust in biglaw DC now? I figure the merger part is going to suffer hard ... any info?
My firm has a large antitrust group. Things are slow. Are you a 2L or a 3L?
3L - I hope my firm will give me other work to do if antitrust is too slow instead of just giving me the axe.
But good advice on grades, etc. If things don't work out I may try and clerk.
Don't worry, antitrust is more than just merger work. There is also price fixing/unfair competition litigation and investigations. Expect there to be even more if the political agenda moves left.
Should 3L Corp associates starting next fall worry?
Listen, it is normal to worry. Things are bumpy. But this has happened before and very few firms hosed their summers/junior associates or closed shop and those that do have bigger problems than just a slow economy. There is a chance that cutbacks could happen to a handful of firms and attorneys, but worrying isn't going to allow you to control whether it is your firm or your job at stake. So focus on what you can control to improve your lot if you are hit and then let the worry go because you cannot do more than be prepared for yourself. The rest is out of all of our hands.
Big DC: That's the best and most human advice I have ever heard on a board.
5:18--I work in Charlotte. I'm interested to hear where you think are the good places to work in Charlotte. We may have different ideas of what "good" is (or maybe we're in different practice areas). I was basing my comment on places that have more than 2 practice groups, pay (one of the two) market rates in town, and still currently have work. (Also, I never said that KilStock was a good place to work. I actually think that its a sinking ship and generally not a well-regarded firm in town. I was just pointing out that their now-departed Sonnenschein people did a lot of securitization).
FS = mutual funds, hedge funds, etc.
FRE = sorry, no work now.
Firms in Charlotte focused on the servicing side (Parker Poe, A&B, Pogo, MVA), to some extent should be all right.
I know that a number of firms picked up securitization attorneys (those folks that either work on the underlying mortgage loans or service them) during the credit crunch (A&B comes to mind). That seems like an awefully risky and stupid thing to do.
There is some really interesting legal work coming out of this mortgage crisis. There is the obvious defense work as people investigate or sue over lending practices, etc. and everything related to bankruptcy. But think about issues like who owns a forclosed upon home when interests in the loan are held as part of an investment instrument by many investors, how do you restructure the investment package to take into account individual defaults, voluntary agreements to change the payment terms under the law passed by Congress, the inevitable uptick in home buying/investing as credit losens up and good credits look to take advantage of bargins, how do entities like B of A integrate the businesses of the Countrywides of the world into their own companies. So there may be an ebb in work and there may be a smaller universe of firms doing mortgage work, but there is and will be plenty of work associated with this crisis and people need brilliant attorneys to right the mess.
Big DC, i hope you are still checking this thread. I started big law in the fall, but think that i may want to switch firms. how much do you think it blemishes the resume if i leave after 1 year as opposed to 2 years? i still haven't decided whether i want to switch practices, the reason i want to leave is the standard "grass is greener."
For what it's worth, I have confirmation on other law firm layoffs over the last month. It'll be publicized soon enough. We're at the tip of the iceberg folks.
Big DC - can I work for you?
If you think this economy is "normal" you are smoking dope. This is a credit crunch induced recession.
This does not normally happen, and absolutely did not have to happen. There are a lot of guilty parties but there is no point in denying the reality outside the window.
11:55 - don't be so condescending. I don't see a lot of whining on this thread. I see a lot of rational people trying to figure out what the next move is given the economic situation that law firms face now. If we're just fungible billing units, which incidentally is confirmed day in day out by the actions of partners, we're trying to maximize the outcomes given the risk. Don't belittle it is mere whining.
This is nothing compared to 2002/2003 post tech bubble. Then corp. was dead all around.
Is Milbank NYC letting people go? Can we get confirmation on this one way or the other please?
What 11:55 says is partially true. Those of us who have been at this a bit longer have some context. It is why I can look at what is happening with the perspective of what it was like when I was in law school (mid90s), what it was like when the internet bubble burst, etc. We can have an argument about whether we are in a recession. Again, my way of thinking does not make me believe that we are there yet either. The jobless and GDP growth rates indicate a slow down, with some risk of dropping into the toilet if credit does not lossen up. But it does not matter how you label it. The economy has slowed down some and law firms want to shape their staffing to fit the slow down and divert resources to where the work is. So taking what 11:55 says for what it is worth, lawyers that have been out of school for less time have had the good fortune of spending their careers during a time when there was plenty of work (a seller's market), and pretty unusual pay increases. This means you had a lot more choices especially if you were getting work you hated or working with people you hated. You could tell people to pound sand if you did not like it because there were 10 other jobs out there. I think that kind of optionaility is dying out in some markets and practices. So I would recharacterize the questions or anxiety expressed on this board not as whining but as a message to take stock of what you have and consider yourself lucky to be making game show money when you are relatively young. Once you reset your point of view, then you can say does my job still suck so bad that I have to get out? And "suck so bad" is not measured by working late, weekends, etc., as that is the tradeoff for the high comp during the early years of your career. Those work factors exist at every big law firm in the U.S. You generally can't escape them unless you choose lifestyle over money. And firms are only going to force the productivity issue more as salaries cut intopartner profits.
I support the advice at the end of 11:55's post: Work hard, try and be flexible and try and be the best possible lawyer. You'll be fine. I would add that you should try to be liked. A-hole behavior is one of the ways firms sort. It is much harder to cut the associate who seems happy and up for anything than it is to cut a jerk.
As to changing jobs, there is no one right answer. People jump all the time after their first year. There is no absolute stigma, but it does make it harder to jump again so you don't want to waste a jump now unless you really need to. Plus, firms are letting low perfomers go. So you want to be careful about not be branded as someone who "had" to leave. I would ask myself, is it likely that my current firm will cut me in the next 12 months? You should know this by your reviews, whether you are in demand as new assignments come up and whether your group is generally busy. If you think you are well regarded, then I would ask what makes the other options look better and do you have a real picture of what it is like at the other firm (i.e. you have close friends at the other firm, you are at a mediocre firm and the green grass is a blue chip firm). Only you know all the facts. If the other option is really better, then go ahead and jump. But remember, if you are in a good position where you are, it might be smarter to stay and build up your tool box. Why? Because you could get to the new spot only to find out that you are at the top of the list for cuts solely because you have the least time in.
One other thing, we are in partner jumping season. Talent is moving around and probably will for another month or so as distributions are paid out and partners can change firms without leaving money on the table. If you interview now, you might find yourself joining a firm only to find that a practice group was gutted by partner departures. Watch the trade rags to see who is announcing new partners joining the firm and where those partners came from. This will give you a clue as to where there might be problems and opportunities. If partners are leaving, ask why and try to figure out what business they took. If partners are leaving in droves, that firm or the specific practice group likely has a problem and I would stay away.
I agree with 9:17, bankruptcy is extremely hot and likely will be for the next 3-4 years given the current economy. Everyone is hiring bankruptcy associates and recruiter calls come in at the rate of 10-12 a day for those of us who are junior or 3-4th year bankruptcy/restructuring associates and practicing at top firms. there are also quite a few distressed debt opportunities at funds and the like. If you are in law school, about to graduate, this may be a way to go if you want to be sure of job security as a junior associate. Those of you practicing in groups about to be cut, try to tranfer to litigation or bankruptcy, or, take a leave/sabbatical time if your firm offers it and it's possible and look at your options, hope things change in the coming months or reinvent yourself in the interim...
Big DC, you should start your own career advice website or something. Thanks for the tips, they are much appreciated.
Big DC, is it a good time to jump if you are in bankruptcy and are a 1st year? I am trying to avoid the two to three year biglaw "crush' on hours and lifestyle I've now been warned about by senior associates at my firm and am looking at a smaller firm with more opportunities in litigation later on--once the bankruptcy frenzy dies down.
Yah, BIG DC IS BACK!!! MOVE OVER LAT!!!!!!
4:29, this is hard to answer without knowing firms, etc. For example, are you leaving a bankruptcy shop like Weil to go to a 50 person firm or a 500 person firm? This might make a difference in what you can expect. If you have personal reasons for avoiding a crush, then the time might be good. But I would really want to make sure that the smaller firm has the opportunities you are seeking and will allow you to avoid a crush there. People make promises about the future that they cannot keep no matter what they might think now. And people tend to tell you they offer lifestyle, but then you show up and work just as hard as you would have at your old firm and sometimes for less money. Sometimes this happens because things get crazy and they need all hands on deck. In other cases, our type A personalities motivate us to work hard even when we do not have to. If you want general litigation, then maybe you can move to that straight away, but note that hours can be bad in lit too. Another thing that a partner told me when I was a 1st year is that every hour you work is an hour of experience that you gain. And every hour of experience opens new doors later and gets you out of the drudgery. It sounds like a convenient, money-making platitude that benefits the partner, but it proved true for me. And the experience is not just about the hour billed but what you were doing. If you work at a firm that does not do complex work, then your one hour of experience might not be as valuable as one at a big firm. Of course, the flip side is that smaller firms sometimes let junior people take on more responsibility at a early stage so you do get to do more meaningful work early. Plus, at least in DC, there are many boutiques that do very good work and you can get great work notwithstanding the size, but these tend to be regulatory practices.
So the bottom line is that you have to assess what you want, why you want it, can the other firm really deliver and can you get something at your current firm that might launch you in a better direction 6 months or a year from now.
Big DC: So should upcoming summers be worried about getting no-offered?
I think the "no offer" question depends on the firm. Many firms recruit with the idea that they can offer every summer that comes and it is the summer's offer to lose. At those firms, you really have to mess up to lose an offer because everyone knows what it does to recruiting when you don't offer summers. Other firms take the view that they are going to offer X number of jobs and you have to compete. I think most firms fall into category 1. With that said, I would approach my summer in a good or bad economy with commitment to do a good job, get along with people, show good judgment and be grateful for the opportunity. Almost every class has one or two people that cannot manage this simple task. They may or may not get an offer depening on the firm. This summer, if things have not picked up some, I think you will hear of a few more people not making the cut. It is not because the firms want to "no offer" so much as that they might tolerate a little less.
For what it is worth, the attorneys involved in the summer programs figure out pretty quickly who is struggling and the entire system is geared toward giving feedback that allows you to fix the problem. So take any feedback you get seriously and adapt as you go. No one expects you to be perfect, but they like to see you make an effort. And don't rest on your school. Harvard's get no offered just as easily is Loyola's.
Long Live Neil Weidner!!
Who needs Obama, Hillary or McCain when you have Big DC...
Big DC: Thanks for your posts.
You mentioned its "partner jumping season." I'm summering at Mayer, and all the news I keep reading is about partners leaving the firm. Do you think its to the level where it should be raising red flags, or am I just being a paranoid summer, like the many other posters on here?
8:19: I think you should relax. One month after I started at my law firm an entire department decided to leave the firm. Several weeks later a new partner and his team arrived. It turns out that this partner is the best individual I ever worked with. Just work hard, be focused and responsive and you should be fine.
2:28: My understanding from friends at the firm is YES but the layoffs are genuinely performance-based.
8:19
Mayer's is a special case. It lost 20% of its partners last year, is in serious trouble from law suits, criminal complaints against a partner and general turmoil. They're equity partners were just hit with 20% pay cuts, so more are sure to leave.
If you can find another firm, I would seriously look at it if it is more stable than Mayers seems to be right now.
7:17AM
Does the 20% drop in equity partners at Mayer include the 45 who were deequitized, or is this 20% in addition to those 45?
Just what sort of general turmoil or we talking? Enough for incoming summers and perspective laterals to start thinking of a plan B? Thanks.
8.13
It does include the 45 (more than 100 in total physically left the firm last year), more are apparently on their way out now due to the 20% pay cut.
Turmoil includes:
- major loss of big billing partners in key areas (head of litigation, head of leveraged finance, head of insurance defense work, etc),
- major litigation to defend (over US$8bn in claims), which their insurers may not cover if the loss was caused by fraud on the part of the firm,
- whicn is unfortunate, because one of their partners is subject to an indictment for criminal fraud in connection therewith,
- they've had to do major restructurings of their partnership, for no other reason than to make their partners work better together (which suggests major issues),
- accute morale issues, not least in NY and Chicago, due to poor treatment of associates and junior partners,
- because of their issues, they tend to hire from lesser schools... if you're from a better school, a subsequent recruiter may wonder why you chose a firm that wasn't in the market for top quality talent - if you're from a lesser school, they may think you couldn't get a better job elsewhere,
- their partnership (generally) is struggling financially due to massive increases in real estate costs, which is now spread amongst substantially fewer partners, etc. and they have started to run up debt for the first time in their history due to lack of cash flow to meet current costs, including an expensive (and some would say, ill conceived) merger in Asia, and
- the culture of the firm has changed (not to everyone's liking) because the firm was effectively taken over by the UK firm it "merged" with several years ago (the firm is now run by the head of the UK firm... you can imagine how badly that has gone down in the US).
I am sure you'll find defenders within the firm who will tell you how rosy it is (what else would they say...) but, the question you have to ask yourself is - faced with another offer, would you rather go to another firm which is less risky and doesn't have the baggage that Mayer's appears to have. I suggest you do some thorough internet research on the firm (there's plenty of articles which back up what I have said above), have a look a what's available elsewhere and then make a cool informed decision.
If you do go there, then keep an eye out for other opportunities in case the firm (really) turns south on you.
Where are the affected 13?
DC@7:17 and 9AM
Thanks. That's extremely detailed. I did come across articles discussing the huge contingent liability in the Refco suit, and before that a major settlement of about $700mm split between Mayer Brown and 2 other defendants. Several commentators guessed MB was on the hook for as much as $200mm. I did not realize just how serious the issues were until you broke it down. I'll do some more research, but if even half of what you wrote is accurate, then this is the type of negative feedback loop that can really tank a firm.
Any confirmation on whether anything is going on at Milbank?
Mayer Brown is like CWT - there are firm specific gong show issues that are not present at other firms hurt by the business cycle and general Ibanker screw up on MBS.
Mayer Brown's issues are more serious than most of CWT's, at least, the ones we know about so far. But both firms should absolutely be avoided if possible, and 2L summers should be proactive, rather than reactive, in seeking other work as permanent associates if things don't markedly stabilize and improve soon.
The Charlotte outposts of any firm also fall in this catagory. That business downturn will be permanent, for all intents and purposes.
morale in the chicago office is very low, partially due to business issues and partially due to associate treatment - people are afraid of where the firm is going and resent the few associates who have been favored to be "informed" for non-merit based reasons (including one associate who very conveniently married a partner in the firm).
"Boot-licking associates who drink the Kool Aid"
I thought that site was called xoxo?
10:45 - I don't follow.
what about morale in the NY office of Mayer Brown? I've been doing a lot of research on MB and it's hard to find positive press that wasn't put out by the firm itself.
The NY office of MB has its own special chapter in the book on how to screw up a law firm. It was once a huge sucess (the biggest office of any non-NY law firm) and was the most profitable part of the firm.
Then it all fell apart and now it's a huge drain on the rest of the firm and is a shadow of its former self. It really has been hit the hardest by all of the problems at MB. Most other firms look to their NY offices to generate uber profits. At MB it's just the poor uncle who turns up drunk to family functions.
I definately would NOT recomend going to MB's NYO. It's a basket case that will be very difficult to turn around, even in a booming market.
Anyone care to speak up in defense of Mayer Brown? Any summer reading this is going to be scared out of their minds otherwise.
12.14 - the silence is probably instructive to the point you were making.
Can anyone share their info/scoop on Paul, Weiss? Any layoff? Bad news? I am an incoming summer associate and really want to get the offer at the end of the summer...
The dude that keeps talking about Milbank layoffs probably just got canned for performance based and is hoping he/she is not alone. Unfortunately, man, it's just you. No layoffs here.
12:38- Tough to say that when a group of 4 in litigation were let go simultaneously.
12:52 - How come this has not been reported by Lat? How can a firm cover that up?
Big DC to 190K
1:37- Big DC is obviously a mid-level to senior associate, who likely makes substantially more than 190K. But, it is the thought that counts - Big DC's well thought out and articulated comments are much appreciated.
Big DC doesn't do push-ups. He pushes the world down.
12:52 - How come this has not been reported by Lat? How can a firm cover that up?
__________________________________
So unless Lat reports a layoff, it didn't happen and is impossible to hide? Are you on something?
Investigate Dewey & LeBouef . . . . layoffs galore over here.
The alleged firing of 4 litigators from Milbank was not reported because it's BS. Litigation is probably Milbank's most active group now, so the only reason you would get fired from a busy group is if you are, well, not so good.
Dewey LeBoeuf'd my Ballantine.
Dewey Ballantine = British street pimp/gangster name
Dewey LeBeouf = French street pimp/gangster name
word is dechert is cracking down on bloggers o'melveny-style with the severence packages of the unlucky 13 hanging in the balance.
perhaps the chairman didn't appreciate being dubbed "His Royal Lie-ness Winokur"...
Ain't free speech grand...
I knew this was bound to occur seeing how so much of the bread and butter of FRE are mortgaged backed securities. I was glad to have chosen another practice area rather than FRE as an incoming associate. I wasn't worried until I got a call telling me not to be worried!
Dechert's a shit hole. No one should ever be forced to work there. They treat you like you're trash, use you up and through you out. When the hell is Bart Wino and his group going to be ousted?