umm....

It must be nice to be a second class citizen in your own firm. Do they have seperate but equal bathroom facilities for non-IP associates?

$145K in Milwaukee is a lot of cheese. Anyone want to run that through a COL calculator?

I think that's also $20K over the other firms in Milwaukee and Detroit.

145 goes a long way in the Mill Town or the D. Granted, the D ain't the best place to raise a family, but Milwaukee is severly underrated.

For $160K in Detroit you can live like a prince. That's remarkable.

3:19,

More than a few firms bill out engineers at a higher rate - there are a lot fewer lawyers with EE degrees as compared to the ubiquitous poli sci 3.9 from Party U /w/ T14 J.D. It's actually quite thoughtful of Foley to pass along a bit of that additional capture.

If Obama wins, the scale will be compressed even further as removing the social security cap will force these associates to take out a second job at McD's to make ends meet.

How rancid is Detroit that 145 is "market-leading." This is the only V100 firm in the city. How pathetic.

$145K in Milwaukee = $230K in Manhattan.

o-O

Who the heck cares about compression at that point?

Damn! 3:28 has a point.

To the best of my knowledge the next highest paying firms in Milwaukee are at 115. So this is a huge premium. 30 grand buys a lot of brats and beer.

Raising the cap on the SS tax for a first-year associate making $145K and $0 bonus would cost him about $2600. Assume a $20K bonus and it's $3800. And it would cost the law firm the same amount.

There are firms that pay $125K in Milwaukee. They are probably cursing Foley for the $10K raise.

Quarles & Brady and Michael Best pay $125K in Milwaukee.

Which happens to be almost $200K in NYC money itself, so don't cry for those guys.

Twin Cities has this going on as well, with lots of firms paying salary that is at least a few classes higher on COL adjustment than NYC, and Fish's office paying $160 outright.

Minneapolis to $190k!!!

Minneapolis to $190k!!!

Quarles & Brady and Michael Best pay $125K in Milwaukee.

Which happens to be almost $200K in NYC money itself, so don't cry for those guys.

Twin Cities has this going on as well, with lots of firms paying salary that is at least a few classes higher on COL adjustment than NYC, and Fish's office paying $160 outright.

Lat,

I've seen bits and pieces on here, but how about a round-up listing other firms that offer premium pay for IP Associates (and some even more if they are Electrical Engineers).

145 to live in Wisconsin or Detroit? I would need more like twice that to be consigned to fly-over land.

I'm pretty certain Moore and Van Allen in Charlotte pays a premium for IP.

u want ip pay, go get an ee degree.

Boy, the players from the other Milwaukee law firms are going to be even more jealous of the Foley people at the summer softball games. Sucks to be them.

Why pay more for EE's? They are everywhere...the real money gets paid for biotechnology experience.

To 4:10, I see they don't teach you engineers much about writing. Legitimate firms pay the same to all associates, regardless of how big of a geek they are.

Milwaukee to $190!

4:18(2) --

You really shouldn't critique someone's grammar when your own is suspect. There was no need to start your sentence with "to."

you can buy a sweet Harley for $145k

If Milwaukee is raising, New York is surely on the way to $190!!!!

IP should get more. Any fool can get a history or English major from a decent college by studying 5 hours a week. Engineers and science majors are rarer in law and sought after, had to actually work for their undergrad degree and bring something that is useful to the table.

IP lawyers are more intelligent and renaissance men. They are a unique breed who can understand technology and law. They definitely deserve more money. Would you pay a flight attendant and a pilot the same money? Of course not. Then why should IP lawyers not make more?

4:41 is right. This is why the top New York firms pay IP lawyers 190k.

3:19: Well they are, in a way, 2nd class. An IP -bound law student could easily do corporate work. An English major and corporate-bound law student would have a hard time doing complex patent litigation.

There's no need for separate bathrooms. All partners and employees share the same bathroom. Doesn't mean they all get paid the same.

4:48: 190k? They do? Which firms? I need to switch.

"There's no need for separate bathrooms. All partners and employees share the same bathrooms"

You obviously have never been to the Milwaukee Foley office. Partners just open a window and let it fly down to the roof of the Quarles building.

What's a Foley & Lardner?

IP and non-IP should get the same salary. The difference in supply is made up for by being more forgiving on law school credentials.

With an EE degree, you can make it to BigLaw from a TTT without much academic excellence, even moreso if you have an advanced degree.

On the other hand, polisci from Party U is subject to the same T-14-or-top-10%-at-TTT that is much lamented on these pages.

If you can find an engineer with those legal credentials, then one might be able to make a case for higher salary . . . but there aren't many of them.

I have heard von briesen in milwaukee started its 07 grads at 90k

Milwaukee and Detroit?!? Pay raises haven't made it 38 miles east of NYC to Stamford, but they have made it to Detroit?? Are you kidding me?? Will NJ and CT ever catch up?? Why would anyone work in CT or NJ??

Any news about this trickling down to the Madison market (for F&L or other bigger Wisconsin firms).

Milwaukee money with the Madison lifestyle could be sweet.

5:59: I think we're talking about the top law firms (Fish, Finnegan, Kirkland, Weil etc...). Those firms generally don't hire lawyers from TTT schools even if they're engineers.

The IP lawyers from those top firms generally come from T14 schools and should be compensated at 190k.

If you're talking about some of the smaller IP boutiques where they hire engineers from TTT schools, then I see your point...

6:36 - Agreed that someone with an engineering degree and a T-14 JD should be compensated at 190.

How sure are you that the top firms don't hire IP associates from TTT's? I'm a TTT 2L Engineer (top 20%) and I got interviews just about everywhere I applied (not necessarily offers, but at least they interviewed me). Nevertheless, I took an offer at a boutique (NOT a small one), and the other summers are more similar to me (good academics from tier 2 schools) than the summer class at most biglaw shops.

So the 2002 class is getting $40,000 more for billing 100 more hours? That's $400 per hour. What is the billing rate for these guys? They must be getting a most of the revenue that they bill for those extra 100 hours.

@ 6:24

Foley historically pays $10K less in Madison than they do in Milwaukee. So I would fully expect Foley Madison to go to 135.

The other big Wisconsin firms pay both their Madison and Milwaukee offices 125. If they raise to keep pace $10K behind Foley in Milwaukee, that will probably be across the board.

Foley is being cursed more than usual by managing partners at the other firms around town tonight.

What is the bonus structure at Foley?

Isn't "big Wisconsin firm" an oxymoron?

No sir. "Other big Wisconsin firms" is an oxymoron.

@8:38

I'd count 1000 attorneys as a "big Wisconsin firm."

Stamford to 160!

Green Bay to Packers Victory!!!

Foley is *the* big one. Quarles is #2, and there are a bunch of others in the 100-300 lawyer firm-wide range.

All of these bill 1800 minimum and pay $125,000 base to Wisconsin first years which translates to, as was stated above, $200,000 in NYC dollars.

MN is absolutely full of the same thing.

Call it "small BigLaw" I guess.

I can confirm that Foley raised salaries in Madison, WI and Tampa, FL for non-IP associates to start at $135k and lag the Milwaukee/Detroit schedule by $10k for each class year. Supposedly due to cost of living differences.

The Milwaukee/Detroit IP schedule is the same schedule as "money center" offices (NY, LA, DC, etc) and nationwide IP. It has not been my experience that the raise for IP associates was ill received. Depending on the office most/many IP lawyers at Foley have Ph.D.s, so it is seen as compensating them for years spent in school. Plus, their rates are substantially higher. (No, I am not an IP lawyer). In any event, I don't know anyone who has taken it personally.

Foley's "bonus" structure is two-tiered. Associates are paid "deferred compensation" at 1950 hours as reflected on the schedule in the original post. At 1950 you also qualify for a discretionary bonus, which are not all that common. For each 100 additional hours beyond 1950, you are guaranteed a "floor" percentage of your 1950 compensation (5% at 2050, 10% at 2150 and so on). You can hypothetically get a discretionary bonus above and beyond that, the combined total is not to exceed 30% of 1950 comp. I'm told, however, that the NYC office is on a completely different scale due to the local market.

If you want to beat up on Foley, don't do it on comp, look at the partnership track. You spent 7-8 years as an associate, then 2-3 as a "senior counsel" before you make partner. Of course, making $250k/year as a "senior counsel" in a secondary midwest market isn't that bad. But 9-11 years is too long.

godfrey, whyte and reinhart are also at 125k in milwaukee.

Anybody have any additional info on Miami?

Boies: ~$165K
Weil: $160k
Hunton, Foley: $145k
Hogan: $140k
Greenberg: $135k

Firms yet to announce 2008: Akerman, White & Case, McDermott, Holland & Knight, etc.

re: 9:45

Just casually looking at the partnership link, it seems like everybody graduated in May 1998 or 1999, meaning the track is 8.5-9.5 years? Not great, but not much worse than most large firms. Care to expound?

Bonus question:

For the year 2004, an associate who bills 1850 gets $175k, and an associate who bills 1950 gets $205k.

Does this mean that your salary is $175k for the entire year, and you get a $30k bonus if you hit 1950?

Foley's partnership track is long because they're trying to reduce their somewhat bloated number of partners without actually firing anyone and trashing their regional reputation as a place where you *will* make partner if you stick it out and you can retire as a big shot. I think the theory is that if you kite it out long enough, the "dead wood" in the baby boomer ranks will fall away just as their more carefully selected, more in tune with today Gen Y kids start to ascend.

That's the theory. Insert slurs about Gen Y'ers who wear Uggs to work and listen to iPods at their desk here.

Foley is THE quintiessential Midwest "institution" firm that, like a lot of firms everywhere, is going through identity turbulance, and finding they need more revenue-generating partners than mere members of the Milwaukee establishment. Give them credit for not de-partnering people like some of the Chicago shops have done.

And senior counsel isn't exactly bad. You are making almost $400k in NYC money without having to kick in funding and, as you may have kids by this point, you don't have to pay for private school because the suburban Milwaukee public schools are fantastic.

It's a slightly different sort of deal with compression and long partner tracks (and living in Milwaukee) in exchange for what is a tremendous amount of "real" money at all stages.

Akerman in Miami is supposed to announce starting salaries for 2008 in March.

Have any other firms moved up to 145 or 160?

The Foley Detroit scale is excellent money for Detroit. Other Detroit firms will never be able to match Foley.

About IP:
Yes, you can be an english major and do patent litigation well. Usually the english/poli-sci majors doing patent litigation are the ones who have distinguished themselves academically or with a fed. clerkship. Most of the people trying the cases aren't engineers because, based on personal observation, most of the science/engineering undergrad (and even grad school) majors (a) can't write, (b) are horrible advocates (either spoken or written or both), and/or (c) are anti-social/awkward/have bad client-relations skills. Most of 'em don't have those skills; it's a rare combination. As a matter of fact, scientists in general are KNOWN for not having those skills. It's somewhat of a joke in the science (and math) world.

It's also rare to find an engineering major turned lawyer from a non-TTT school (or anything above the second tier) who also has a decent GPA and who was on law review. And, if they have those credentials, at best, they might have clerked at the Fed. Circuit (not any other circuit or even fed district court). So, most of these firms hire the TTT grads who are engineers to do prep and pros (patent prosecution). Most of these folks aren't doing litigation, which brings in big bucks on the patent side of the house.

The academic standards for science/engineering majors turned lawyers is rather lax because the combination of science and law is still somewhat rare and not in great supply. I love my engineer friends, but it's interesting that there seems to be a lot of engineers graduating from TTT law schools now. Some argue that it should be easier for engineers and scientists to get into law school because of the (presumed) rigorous analytical curriculum of a science undergrad or grad major. But I'm not seeing a whole slew of engineers graduating from T14 or even T35 law schools...maybe they're getting scholarships to TTTs or maybe they're working/going to law school in mid-career and going to the local TTT school? Or, maybe their essays and LSATs aren't that good. Or, maybe it's because most law school faculties are made of undergrad poli-sci/history/english majors who don't think a heck of a lot of a science major undergrad/grad program.

Anyway, if you got more scientists and engineers going to T14s or just T1s period, you wouldn't see a whole lot of these TTT grads working at BIGLAW in markets like NY, DC, LA, Chicago alongside the poli-sci/T14/law review/coif/federal law clerk grad.
But for now, I guess the supply will continue to come from the TTTs...and these folks will continue to make the big cash until IP (patents, in particular) is no longer in demand.

11:35, here's another reason engineer's don't go to HLS...our undergrad degrees are harder to get than others...therefore, our undergrad GPAs tend to be lower. After all, I didn't think my 169 LSAT was all that bad. And I suppose most engineers wouldn't have too much trouble with logic games.

As far as a decent GPA in law school...I graduated Magna and was on Law Review.

omg -- 2:07 can i suck you off?? a 169 and law review--who here doesn't have at least that.

2:14 --

Probably a lot of folks. But your point still stands -- 2:07's post proves nothing.

RE: 11:35 AM, I'm pretty sure the GPA standards at top 10 schools are more forgiving if you did a rigorous undergrad, like science or engineering, than if you did something like history or comp lit. I studied maths at university, and my GPA was less than spectacular. My class rank was not great, and my rank within my major was even worse (barely top 50%). Yet I got into two top-5 schools (the bottom ones-- NYU and Columbia), and a handful of other top-10 schools.
It's rare for people to go directly into law from a background like that. I think I was the only student in the past decade to do so from my college, which specialises in engineering. There are a handful of other graduates who went into law eventually, but all seem to have done so after pursuing other careers.

9:45,

Get your information right. 7-8 years as an associate before making senior counsel? The people that just made it were from the class of 2001. That's six and a half years from graduation. Except for two laterals that came in with less experience than a typical Foley associate and lost years, I know of no associate that took more than 6.5 years to make senior counsel, or more than 9 years total to make partner.

Re: increased IP compensation.

Why dont more firms who want/need to pay IP associates more, give a $10-20K increase to those who are members of the Patent Bar?

This links the increased pay with the added bar membership that is desired/required/compensated by clients. Dont tell me that they are that worried about the few Comp Sci people who cant sit for the bar.

I have herd that a few firms on the west coast follow this practice.

Does anyone know whether other Detroit firms are considering a base salary increase in light of Foley's recent $10k increase? I realize that most Detroit firms don't even try to pretend to compete with Foley salary-wise (with the exception of Honigman), and the economy is not good here, but it does look a little odd to have Foley's base salary $20k ahead of its nearest competitor and $40k ahead of most "big" Detroit firms.

Detroit still isn't impressive at all. All it has is a small Foley office, which they probably don't intend to grow, and Honigman, which is run like a sweatshop in order for them to keep up in such a crappy local market.

The real question: How many billable do they really work and how many actual hours does it take to make one billable....