first

anyone else find the salaries a bit low considering most law students come out of law school with over 150K in debt? unless of course the firm is paying my mortgage...then sign me up

Second! And SeyShaw bites...

anyone else find the salaries a bit low considering most law students come out of law school with over 150K in debt? unless of course the firm is paying my mortgage...then sign me up

This information needs to be considered in light of the fact that Seyfarth is a decidedly subpar firm.

I will not turn down my money, but in fact salaries are very very high. It's much more lucrative than med school (if you go to a top program and work the hours a medical resident does as an associate. Law school is three years, and then 6-9 until partnership, during which you earn 200K a year. I have a brother that just started med school, and he will graduate with almost 400K in debt, and I will most likely make partner before he makes over 100K because of his internships/residencies. I paid cash for my first BMW when i was 26, my brother will be driving his civic for at least another 7 years. And yes, I'm about 165K in debt, including undergrad.

Then why are you driving a BMW?

I want my firm to provide me with both a helicopter and my own private helicopter parking space on the firm's roof. Until these requests are met, I see my BigLaw salary as highly unsatisfactory.

NYC to 215!

Probably because he's (apparently) convinced that he'll make partner. You know, because in the 1 or 2 years since he graduated law school (extrapolating from the still absurdly high debt), I'm sure the partners at his firm have all assured him he's part of that 5%.

why would i rush to pay of money that is borrowed out at 2.35 percent? it's the cheapest money i'm ever going to get. If you're trying to say that you shouldn't be spending money until you're out of debt, then i guess that means you don't think anyone should buy a house, or pay rent, or eat until they pay off their loans. And if they do it quickly, it'll only take them 6 years, so they can start spending money on fun things the day they have a baby. Wow, that sounds like an exciting life.

Under that theory, why would any of you live in New York? You could pay off your loans a lot quicker if you didn't. especially because salaries are pretty much the same everywhere. Just a thought.

When do Cravath announce?

11:06 -- You seem to assume that you have a chance in hell at actually making partner at some point. Enjoy that BMW while it lasts, because your student loans will last much longer.

Do any of you actually think you're going to make equity partner? I've got to be honest, I think that income partner, or senior counsel or something would be great. Really good money (at least I think it is) and much less stress, and from what i've seen, and I realize this may only apply to my firm, significantly less time in the office. Plus, even at 350K, you're rich. Am I the only one that hasn't been dellusioned enough to think that's not a whole lot of money?

the debt is nothing for the current 1/2 year associates who have loans at 2.5%, but for the 08 graduates and subsequent grads, the loans are at a wonderful 6.75% or more!

First year associates who buy a BMW, Lexus, Range Rover etc are complete idiots and should be fired.

What about a mercedes?

Paying cash for a car when you're 165k in debt doesn't sound like the smartest thing in the world to do.

Uh, law students at my school are already driving around in BMW, Lexus, Benz...

Wake up.

11:16 - you are equating your BMW to an investment. Although BMW's depreciate the least, allegedly, such a purchase is far from an investment. Your logic is flawed.

11:32:

Rich parents are great. Those kids probably won't even have any student debt because there's some trust, if not checks from Daddy, that pay that too.

I'm not sure if they'd be particularly good to hire at BigLaw since there's almost no way to control them, but someone who is driving a $50K car around campus could give two shits about starting salary.

If you got that kind of money for 2.35% (I doubt it but let's assume its true), there's no reason to pay it off immediately.

Hell, you'd make more money just putting that sum in the bank.

And med school has pretty much turned into a ripoff compared to law school. One more year, same or greater cost per year, same crappy starting hours, a quarter of the starting money in the upper echelon.

The partners at my firm love it when associates do crap like buy expensive cars, it just means they own them even more. If you're in debt, you need the money, and they can get you to do basically anything they want. Good for him.

Secondly, 11:36, technically, assuming in some part the car was a necessity (i'm guessing non-NY) then technically, the only portion that is the marginal cost above the necessity cost, so say 20,000 of it, but take that in light of the depreciation against the necessity cost. So yes, while it is not, in any way an investment, the only part of money that is being "thrown away" is probably down around 5-10 grand. And that is not a lot for an associate at a top firm, making (presumably) at least 185 to "throw away" on a car, in cash. I'm sure the majority of you have spent that on a vacation at some point.

BINGHAM IS PAYING SPECIAL BONUSES IN NY AND MY FIRM ISN'T, WTF???

It's possible to have it that cheap, I don't know how it would break down, but I graduated from undergrad in '03, and my federal debt from there (although not that large) is right around 2% with the rate reduction for autodraft and on-time monthly payments.

to 11:43

it is much more than 5-10k, even assuming your assumptions.

look people, if you want a lexus, just buy a camry (basically the same thing for a lot less).

the 1st years who buy luxury sedans etc have self-esteem issues (but i guess that is no different than most lawyers in general).

What firm pays its income partners 350K? Sign me up!

wow are these postings off-topic. go talk to a wall, people. meanwhile, i'm guessing that "2006" and "2007" in the 2nd tipster section above should read "2004" and "2005," respectively?

I think there's probably just some serious compression for those that "meet" ... but i don't work there or know anyone that does

I'd give up driving a BMW for driving a Camry if it meant I could work less hours. A drive home in a Camry at 7PM will always beat the midnight drive home after a 14 hour billable day--no matter what car you take.

11:51,

even your law school loans are at 2%?

You got $165k in all federal loans?? No private loans at all? I'm happy to wait out paying the 2% I pay on my government loans, but the variable-rate loan from Citi is more than enough to prevent me from doing something stupid like buying a beamer.

Full scholarship to law school + savings from work during and after college (full scholarship there too) = private law school education from top 25 school with about $10,000 federal loan debt when I graduate. That's all.

Big firm job lined up. You better believe I'm buying a BMW.

Ouch. Nouveau.

Oh, you went to one of *those* schools. The top three don't give scholarships. But you're absolutely sure you're going to make partner. Interesting.

I'm very happy that I turned down money at top 10 schools to go to HLS. I definitely wouldn't trade the degree for a BMW.

JT went to Yale and Harvard - at the same time.

I had a full scholarship to law school, work at BigLaw, have no debt (not yet purchased a home) and I still would not buy a BMW or some car like that. Way too impractical. People who buy BMWs also waste their money on other stuff. Save your money--you will be glad you did when the economy tanks.

12:10, No, I was just saying that the debt i took in undergrad I was able to consolidate really cheap in 2004, so it is possible that someone could have their law school crap (if they didnt' have to take private loans) really cheap.

and 1:05, what do you mean "when the economy tanks" ...

11:06,

You are an idiot for buying a BMW with $165k in debt. Your spending habits will keep you in the middle class, just like your parents.

11:06 and 11:38,

There is no way that your $165k of debt is all at 2.5%.

You made a poor financial decision, the same way your parents made poor financial decisions, which is why at 25, you had to mortgage your future to go to law school.

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Remember that when you go to your parents house in Bellflower or whatever lame place you grew up.

I know for a fact that HLS offers scholarships.

the nice part about this country is that each person can spend his money as he chooses, and doesn't have to answer to anyone for it.

some squirrel it away, some are debt-phobic, some spend it as fast as possible, and some don't. if someone wants to bill 3000 a year and share his ramen noodles with his 3 roommates, so what? if he wants to buy an M5, so what? either way, who gives a crap?

Isn't SS a TTT firm that does insurance defense stuff at lower billable rates?

Isn't SS a TTT firm that does insurance defense stuff at lower billable rates?

1:45,

I don't give a crap. He is trying to make a point. His point is not well taken, however. I am glad he is squandering his money. We need the middle class to do so to keep them in their place.

1:38-

since you seem to know all the facts, please give us a detailed description of 11:06's financial situation, including your analysis of the choices he "should" make. even if all $165k isn;'t at 2.5%, it's possible most of it is, and the rest could easily be at a fixed rate low enough to justify not rushing to pay it off.

11:06's makes a great point. The car you drive (his BMW versus his doctor brother with a civic) really determines the value and success of an individual. I'd take an MD over a JD any day.

1:44, HLS does not offer scholarships. That is a fact. I'm sure it's on the website somewhere. They will give grants, but they are 100% need-based. The school does not need to hold out merit money in order to persuade meritorious candidates to attend. They obviously lose some to Yale (it happens the other way too); but they're never going to demean themselves by trying to pay people to come (like, say, NYU).

1:52,

Let 1:06 give us all the facts and a detailed description of his financial situation.

Thus far, he looks like an idiot driving around LA with a BMW, a $165k in loans, and a brother with $400k in loans.

how is 225Kish a year in your 20s middle class? I'm sorry, maybe because i don't have a trust fund i'm confused.

1:59,

Income doesn't equal class. NET WORTH does. You are worth negative $150k. Now get back to your doc review.

i'm sorry, but purely from an economics standpoint, isn't it dumb to pay off any debt outstanding that is lower than the risk-free rate? if the interest you're guaranteed is greater than the interest you're paying. then why would you ever pay it off?

1:59,

You are confused because you are middle class. You probably live in an apartment. You own nothing, except a plasma and a BMW. You have less than $100k in the bank.

How am I worth negative $150K ... did you talk to my financial planner? did something happen in the market today that was so bad that my losses are no longer limited to my investment? Did i become liable for the debts of the company your daddy is most likely tanking? Tell him to stop!!!

2:03,

Right now, the best CD rates are around 4%. Take out taxes, and the actual rate of return is around 2.5%. Pay off loans with an interest rate above that percentage.

1:59; 2:08,

Tell us what your worth then. Please remember to subtract your $165k in debt.

1:59; 2:08,

Tell us what your net worth is then.

Please remember to subtract your $165k in debt.

1:45 -

I never post, but that was the post of the year, so I had to respond. The thing about most lawyers is that they want to convince everyone else that how they choose to live their lives is the only way. This is especially true of law students and junior associates, who comprise 90% of the posters on this site.

Seriously did you talk to my financial planner, because something must have happened for me to magically have 165K in debt.

And my financial situation is none of your concern.

Seriously, 1:59, why are you dodging the questions about what you are worth?

I am worth $11.9 million including my education-related debt.

1:59; 2:08,

Exactly, any positive net worth is a fantasy.

I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!!!

2:26,

The best post of the year? Really?

Because it's pointless ...

You started insulting some poor kid's parents saying that they made bad decisions, and it's their fault he's poor, and he's getting what he deserves.

I personally think that if your mommy and daddy have $100 or $100M it's no different. It's not your money, if they bought you things and gave you a trust, so what, you didn't do anything to get it, you're not any better than me or the kid with his bmw. In fact, I bet you've actually accomplished less in life than the rest of us, even though, unfortunately, we have to deal with people like you everyday.

I think that any of us working in big law, and reasonably young are not middle class. My parents were middle class, and they didn't screw up at all. They did a fantastic job. I make 3 times what my dad does. I've got plenty of money put away (well, i'm doing good for a self-made 29 year old, and the two law income family doesn't hurt) and no consumer debt.

So if you can tell me what the point of knowing my net worth is, other than to either say "you're a liar" or "that's nothing, i'm much richer than you" then I will happily provide it. Until then, find something you've personally accomplished two validate yourselves, and quit trying to bring other people down around you because you've realized you're nothing without mommy and daddy's money and that makes you inadequate

So, in sum, the BMW- that you allegedly paid for in ca$h- has a negative impact on your net worth.

1:59 - I am worth $896M (gross and net as I have no debt) and I drive a used Camry.

So, what's the problem with paying for cars in cash? My parents and their friends have always paid cash for cars.

I have never owned a car. I am 112 years old. I eat only oatmeal. I do not own a home. I do nothing but bill hours all day. I am worth $24.3B. So suck on that 2:34!

Nothing wrong with paying for a car in ca$h.

1:59,

No one is being indicted for not having wealthy parents. If you and your BIGLAW wife had saved $300k, I would have said congrats.

What is funny is watching a bunch of junior associates spending cash like MC Hammer. This is usually learned from one's parents.

Of course, everyone is free to do what they want with their money. In the end, it is not in their financial self interest. But, who cares. I am not Suzie Orman.

I just think it is funny. So you have associates working crazy hours, they make good money, they spend most of their money, and then they keep billing 2,400 hours a year until 9 out of 10 get booted from their big firms. They need the money to maintain their lifestyles--and self esteem--so they are willing to work longer and harder and jump on every lame grenade that a partner throws at them. This doesn't improve the life of the guy in the office next to the gunner. Frankly, it skews partner expectations, and messes things up for everyone else who wants to maintain some sense of balance.

most financial advisors would tell you never to borrow money to purchase an asset that have ZERO chance in appreciating ---- paying cash for a car is the best thing to do, however, I'm not sure buying a BMW was the best financial decision...

Paying cash for a car is good. Paying cash for a car that is worth $5k less once you drive it off the lot is not a good idea, especially if you are 26 with $165k in loans.

Everyone, spend everything you have on nice toys. Take out some loans, help boost our economy. Spendthrifts to negative $190k!!!

While I find bashing the BMW guy to be wildly entertaining, I have a serious question. How are you 1st and 2nd year associates surviving on 160K a year in NYC & DC?

1:59,

What did I personally accomplish? I saved a lof money. I found a way out of BIGLAW, and to a place where I can be a real lawyer working for a very well known firm. When I get married, my wife won't have to work. I can enjoy time with friends and family while having a sophisticated law practice. I am further outside of the rat race than you, and we are about the same age.

Finally, a valid response. For one thing, my wife and I have saved over 500K, which, I have to admit is a good part due to the fact that she had very low debt). We also don't have kids, which makes a big difference. But we make almost 500K a year gross (w/ bonuses). Yea, we work crazy hours, but to us, it's worth it. She loves work, and I love supporting her in having her own career. And at that type of salary, even if it's a single income household, you're not middle class, you can afford to do both, you just can't afford to throw money away on things that aren't really important to you. For example, we don't even have a plasma tv, but we do like to travel. We're more interested in enjoying the ride, while we're on the way to those "someday dreams."

So leave the kids alone, they work hard, some of them derive a sense of self worth out of working like that, some do it solely for the money. There are plenty of places that people can go to work less hours for, what in some cases, is a higher hourly wage. But most of all, don't you dare bash good, hard working middle and lower class parents that did everything they could to get their kids to a better life. I'd imagine that's a lot harder than any of us spoiled BigLaw associates could imagine.

3:10,

Live with roommates in a small place.

No one bashed hard working parents. Get the chip off your shoulder.

The real losers are those who compare their lives to the lives of others.

Yes, I mean all of you (with maybe the exception of 1:45).

Done,

Thanks Buddha. It is human nature. Get over it.

Attorneys who don't compare their lives to the lives of others are like unicorns--they don't exist.

1:59,

"Class" still comes down to net worth. There is no guarantee that you will have your biglaw salary forever. Use the $500k well, and you may get yourself out of the rat race, but as I am sure you understand, you are still at the beginning of the race.

I'm talking about liquid. Rich enough to have your own jet. Rich enough not to waste time. Fifty, a hundred million dollars, buddy. A player. Or nothing.

You got ninety percent of the American public out there with little or no net worth. I create nothing. I own. We make the rules, pal. The news, war, peace, famine, upheaval, the price per paper clip. We pick that rabbit out of the hat while everybody sits out there wondering how the hell we did it. Now you're not naive enough to think we're living in a democracy, are you buddy? It's the free market. And you're a part of it. You've got that killer instinct. Stick around pal, I've still got a lot to teach you.

"Most of these Harvard MBA types - they don't add up to dogshit. Give me guys that are poor, smart, hungry ..."

Ben Affleck is as TTT as SS.

Guys at my high school had student loans but bought BMWs all the time. It was no big deal.

@ 2.41

Nice. It's been awhile since I thought about that skit.

@ 3.02

So true.

@ 4.04

"If your enemy is superior, evade him. If angry, irritate him. If equally matched, fight, and if not, split and reevaluate."

isn't the logic that one should not pay off loans at 2.5% based on the idea that you could earn more on that money if you invest it, not if you buy a BMW with it? despite what people say, the banks are not _really_ "giving money away." '

Get back to work, the lot of you.

And buy more German cars and $5k suits so you don't even %^@&ing think about exiting because you'll starve to death and you know it.

3:10, is that a serious question? I can't speak for NY, but I lived in DC on $125k - $135k a year in the "early 2000s" and managed to buy a small condo after working for a couple of years. I also had around $85k in student debt (thankfully, at low interest rates, no private loans). I did not run out and buy a BMW, but wasn't living a ramen noodle eating lifestyle and I never had roommates. In my experience, the only people who have trouble paying their bills in DC at Biglaw salaries are people who lived like lawyers while they were in school and have massive amounts of credit card debt and private loans on top of their "regular" student loans, people who borrowed well over $100k for school, and/or people who are so careless with their money that they would be living paycheck to paycheck no matter what their salary is. Although, I was single at the time and so I was able to live in a one-bedroom apartment/condo. It is a lot harder if you have a family and are trying to buy a house in the DC market, even if your spouse works.

I will show all of you. I will work really hard my whole life. I will then buy a really big house. Then, you will all be jealous of me. I might have worked 70 hours a week, but in the end, I will have a big bank account, that I can take with me to hell.

What's the difference between BMWs and porcupines? Porcupines have pricks on the outside.