Turmoil at William & Mary - Law School Dean Takes Over as President
We love internecine warfare at law schools and in other academic settings. As the old saying goes -- our cursory Googling doesn't immediately generate the exact wording or source, so we'll paraphrase -- fights in academia are especially vicious, because the stakes are especially small.
As Hillary and Barack do battle in Virginia today, so too do administrators at William and Mary. From a tipster at William & Mary School of Law (interesting factoid: it's one of the oldest law schools in the country):
Today the William and Mary Board of Visitors decided not to renew William and Mary President Gene Nichol's contract. Nichols sent out a pretty amazing email to all students about his resignation, and Michael Powell, former FCC Chairman and Rector of W&M, sent a response. Needless to say, people are talking of nothing else today.To make the story even better, the law school dean, Taylor Reveley, is now serving as President of W&M. Nichols is joining the law school staff, where his wife is also a professor.
Check out the messages -- Gene Nichol's defiant departure email, claiming he was ousted due to ideological reasons, and Michael Powell's steadfast denial that the non-renewal was based on ideology -- after the jump.
Updates: First, a W&M tipster advises:
William & Mary School of Law is actually THE oldest law school in America (not one of the oldest). See Davison M. Douglas, The Jeffersonian Vision of Legal Education, 51 J. Legal Educ. 185, 197 (2002) ("[I]n January 1780 William and Mary became the first college in America to offer a formal course of study in law.").
Second, another source notes that Justice Sandra Day O’Connor is the Chancellor of the College of William & Mary. Perhaps the formidable SOC needs to descend on Williamsburg and restore some order down there.
EMAIL MESSAGE FROM WILLIAM AND MARY PRESIDENT GENE NICHOL
From: Gene R. Nichol
Date: Feb 12, 2008 9:42 AM
Subject: [students] A Statement from President Nichol
To: [William & Mary students]
Dear Members of the William & Mary Community:
I was informed by the Rector on Sunday, after our Charter Day celebrations, that my contract will not be renewed in July. Appropriately, serving the College in the wake of such a decision is beyond my imagining. Accordingly, I have advised the Rector, and announce today, effective immediately, my resignation as president of the College of William & Mary. I return to the faculty of the school of law to resume teaching and writing.
I have made four decisions, or sets of decisions, during my tenure that have stirred ample controversy.
First, as is widely known, I altered the way a Christian cross was displayed in a public facility, on a public university campus, in a chapel used regularly for secular College events -- both voluntary and mandatory -- in order to help Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and other religious minorities feel more meaningfully included as members of our broad community. The decision was likely required by any effective notion of separation of church and state. And it was certainly motivated by the desire to extend the College's welcome more generously to all. We are charged, as state actors, to respect and accommodate all religions, and to endorse none. The decision did no more.
Second, I have refused, now on two occasions, to ban from the campus a program funded by our student-fee-based, and student-governed, speaker series. To stop the production because I found it offensive, or unappealing, would have violated both the First Amendment and the traditions of openness and inquiry that sustain great universities. It would have been a knowing, intentional denial of the constitutional rights of our students. It is perhaps worth recalling that my very first act as president of the College was to swear on oath not to do so.
Third, in my early months here, recognizing that we likely had fewer poor, or Pell eligible, students than any public university in America, and that our record was getting worse, I introduced an aggressive Gateway scholarship program for Virginians demonstrating the strongest financial need. Under its terms, resident students from families earning $40,000 a year or less have 100% of their need met, without loans. Gateway has increased our Pell eligible students by 20% in the past two years.
Fourth, from the outset of my presidency, I have made it clear that if the College is to reach its aspirations of leadership, it is essential that it become a more diverse, less homogeneous institution. In the past two and half years we have proceeded, with surprising success, to assure that is so. Our last two entering classes have been, by good measure, the most diverse in the College's history. We have, in the past two and a half years, more than doubled our number of faculty members of color. And we have more effectively integrated the administrative leadership of William & Mary. It is no longer the case, as it was when I arrived, that we could host a leadership retreat inviting the 35 senior administrators of the College and see, around the table, no persons of color.
As the result of these decisions, the last sixteen months have been challenging ones for me and my family. A committed, relentless, frequently untruthful and vicious campaign -- on the internet and in the press -- has been waged against me, my wife and my daughters. It has been joined, occasionally, by members of the Virginia House of Delegates -- including last week's steps by the Privileges and Elections Committee to effectively threaten Board appointees if I were not fired over decisions concerning the Wren Cross and the Sex Workers' Art Show. That campaign has now been rendered successful. And those same voices will no doubt claim victory today.
It is fair to say that, over the course of the past year, I have, more than once, considered either resigning my post or abandoning the positions I have taken on these matters -- which I believe crucial to the College's future. But as I did so, I thought of other persons as well.
I thought of those students, staff, faculty, and alumni, not of the religious majority, who have told me of the power of even small steps, like the decision over display of the Wren Cross, to recognize that they, too, are full members of this inspiring community.
I have thought of those students, faculty, and staff who, in the past three years, have joined us with explicit hopes and assurances that the College could become more effectively opened to those of different races, backgrounds, and economic circumstances -- and I have thought of my own unwillingness to voluntarily abandon their efforts, and their prospects, in mid-stream.
I have thought of faculty and staff members here who have, for decades, believed that the College has, unlike many of its competitors, failed to place the challenge of becoming an effectively diverse institution center stage -- and who, as a result, have been strongly encouraged by the progress of the last two years.
I have thought of the students who define and personify the College's belief in community, in service, in openness, in idealism -- those who make William & Mary a unique repository of the American promise. And I have believed it unworthy, regardless of burden, to break our bonds of partnership.
And I have thought, perhaps most acutely, of my wife and three remarkable daughters. I've believed it vital to understand, with them, that though defeat may at times come, it is crucial not to surrender to the loud and the vitriolic and the angry -- just because they are loud and vitriolic and angry. Recalling the old Methodist hymn that commands us "not to be afraid to defend the weak because of the anger of the strong," nor "afraid to defend the poor because of the anger of the rich." So I have sought not to yield. The Board's decision, of course, changes that.
To my faculty colleagues, who have here created a distinctive culture of engaged, student-centered teaching and research, I will remember your strong and steadfast support until the end of my days.
To those staff members and alumni of this accomplished and heartening community, who have struggled to make the William & Mary of the future worthy of its distinctive past, I regret that I will no longer be part of that uplifting cause. But I have little doubt where the course of history lies.
And, finally, to the life-changing and soul-inspiring students of the College, the largest surprise of my professional life, those who have created in me a surpassing faith not only in an institution, but in a generation, I have not words to touch my affections. My belief in your promise has been the central and defining focus of my presidency. The too-quick ending of our work together is among the most profound and wrenching disappointments in my life. Your support, particularly of the past few weeks and days, will remain the strongest balm I've known. I am confident of the triumphs and contributions the future holds for women and men of such power and commitment.
I add only that, on Sunday, the Board of Visitors offered both my wife and me substantial economic incentives if we would agree "not to characterize [the non-renewal decision] as based on ideological grounds" or make any other statement about my departure without their approval. Some members may have intended this as a gesture of generosity to ease my transition. But the stipulation of censorship made it seem like something else entirely. We, of course, rejected the offer. It would have required that I make statements I believe to be untrue and that I believe most would find non-credible. I've said before that the values of the College are not for sale. Neither are ours.
Mine, to be sure, has not been a perfect presidency. I have sometimes moved too swiftly, and perhaps paid insufficient attention to the processes and practices of a strong and complex university. A wiser leader would likely have done otherwise. But I have believed, and attempted to explain, from even before my arrival on the campus, that an emboldened future for the College of William & Mary requires wider horizons, more fully opened doors, a broader membership, and a more engaging clash of perspectives than the sometimes narrowed gauges of the past have allowed. I step down today believing it still.
I have also hoped that this noble College might one day claim not only Thomas Jefferson's pedigree, but his political philosophy as well. It was Jefferson who argued for a "wall of separation between church and state" -- putting all religious sects "on an equal footing." He expressly rejected the claim that speech should be suppressed because "it might influence others to do evil," insisting instead that "we have nothing to fear from the demoralizing reasonings of some if others are left free to demonstrate their errors." And he averred powerfully that "worth and genius" should "be sought from every condition" of society.
The College of William & Mary is a singular place of invention, rigor, commitment, character, and heart. I have been proud that even in a short term we have engaged a marvelous new Chancellor, successfully concluded a hugely-promising capital campaign, secured surprising support for a cutting-edge school of education and other essential physical facilities, seen the most vibrant applicant pools in our history, fostered path-breaking achievements in undergraduate research, more potently internationalized our programs and opportunities, led the nation in an explosion of civic engagement, invigorated the fruitful marriage of athletics and academics, lifted the salaries of our lowest-paid employees, and even hosted a queen. None of this compares, though, to the magic and the inspiration of the people -- young and older -- who Glenn and I have come to know here. You will remain always and forever at the center of our hearts.
Go Tribe. And hark upon the gale.
Gene Nichol
EMAIL MESSAGE FROM WILLIAM AND MARY PRESIDENT GENE NICHOL
From: Michael K. Powell
Date: Feb 12, 2008 11:20 AM
Subject: [students] Statement by Rector Michael K. Powell
To: [William & Mary faculty, staff and students]
February 12, 2008
Dear Members of the College of William and Mary Community,
President Nichol has announced he will not serve the remainder of his term. We had hoped that he would and regret his decision. The Board of Visitors decision not to renew his contract after his current agreement expires on June 30th was extremely difficult. President Nichol achieved some outstanding things during his tenure. His energy and passion is legendary. He is a truly inspirational figure who has enjoyed the affection of many. After an exhaustive review, however, the Board believed there were a number of problems that were keeping the College from reaching its full potential and concluded that those issues could not be effectively remedied without a change of leadership.
It is critical to explain that this decision was not in any way based on ideology or any single public controversy. To suggest such a motivation for the Board is flatly wrong. Indeed, the Board has been repulsed by the personal attacks on the President and his family. The uncharitable personal assaults are unworthy of anyone who professes to care about the College and there should be no joy when things do not work out between good people.
Many policies championed by President Nichol are fully embraced by the Board. We agree unflinchingly with the President's efforts to make William and Mary a more diverse educational environment. His achievements in this area will be the most enduring part of his legacy. We will continue the pursuit with vigor and will insist that all future presidents of the College do as well. We strongly support the Gateway program and will work to put it on sound financial footing by building an endowment that will allow it to blossom. Equally, we continue to see the enormous value that attends to the efforts of internationalization and civic engagement. And, so there is no doubt, the Board will not allow any change in the compromise reached on the placement of the Wren Cross.
The Board is cognizant that its decision will be deeply disappointing to many, especially members of our faculty and student body. Our sacred stewardship and full insight into the affairs of the College convinced us change was necessary to advance the best interests of the College. We understand the sense of loss and will work hard to heal all wounds.
But it is important to remember that William and Mary is stronger and more enduring than any one person or any one board. It will continue to rise and thrive through the ages. She is the Alma Matter of a Nation and the vibrancy of our students coupled with the wisdom and dedication of our masterful faculty will keep the College shining more brightly than any star in the constellation of higher education.
The College will begin a search for a new president immediately. In the interim, the Board will appoint Dean W. Taylor Reveley effective immediately to serve as President until a permanent leader is found.
Michael K. Powell '85
Rector, Board of Visitors
Marshall-Wythe School of Law [Wikipedia]
(116) Comments
Oh Lovey!
Principals at my high school resigned for idealogical reasons all the time, it was no big deal.
Wow, super slow news day.
Nichol used to be the dean at UNC-CH School of Law when I was a student there. I can sum him up in one word - AWFUL. I am glad to see this happen to him.
From an outsider's perspective, I'd say Nichol's letter is incredibly self-serving and obnoxious.
"university politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small." - Kissinger
Isn't Michael Powell a former D.C. Circuit clerk?
D.C. Circuit clerks are brilliant and never wrong about anything.
Interesting factoid: IT IS the oldest law school in the country. Don't listen to Harvard. W&M had the first law professorship.
Taylor Relevely is smooth.
6:03 - But then why doesn't W&M's own website, linked to the word "factoid" in the post above, make that claim?
You would think that America's oldest law school would want to boast about that fact.
True, Professor Wythe was the first law professor in the country. Taught Thomas Jefferson.
Go Tribe!
6:06 - why not boast? Because we're not Harvard (thank the Almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster). Dignity reigns on our tranquil, bucolic campus (today's email spat notwithstanding).
"There can be no doubt that Wythe and Tucker and their successors at William and Mary were engaged in a substantial, successful and influential venture in legal education, and that their effort can fairly be called the first law school in America." Reveley, W & M Law School Came First. Why Care?, 35 U. Tol. L. Rev. 185, 187 (2003)).
W&M IS the oldest law school in the country (1779). Harvard Law School was established in 1817.
This is a dumb side discussion to an important story about a decrease in freedom of expression at the undergrad campus. Oh yeah and a bumbling President. Taylor Reveley please take over!
"As Hillary and Barack do battle in Virginia today..."
I think you mean "as Barack and Hillary do battle"
and it's really not that much of a battle for that matter
"First, as is widely known, I altered the way a Christian cross was displayed in a public facility, on a public university campus, in a chapel used regularly for secular College events"
I stopped reading what the guy had to say after he claimed he was trying to protect the separation of church and state from a particular display of a cross in a chapel...
watch out Middle America, Gene Nichol is coming and he thinks your Jesus is oppressive!
It depends on you define "oldest". W&M law had a law professorship first, but it shut down for a while in the 19th century, so Harvard law has more years of being in existence.
Taylor Reveley is first class guy. He also sent out an e-mail that he will be returning to us when a permanent president is selected.
I, for one, am glad.
W&M is the oldest law school in the country. Harvard is the oldest continuous law school in the country. W&M Law had to close during the Civil War -- because being traitorous just doesn't pay.
Finally I feel free. Went to W&M as an undergrad, and Sullivan was fantastic, loved by students, alums, and legislators.
Got to UNC Law and saw the polar opposite. Still recall the day when my favorite law professor called to me that Nicholes left UNC (huge smile) ... followed my news of his next appointment to W&M (kick in the pants).
Glad to hear that he is gone from both. The man is incapable of representing an institution, his only agenda is to press his own politics, recklessly if need be.
He believes he has the exclusive on objective truth, and feels entitled to execute it, regardless of tradition, alumni wishes, or the strong warnings from his advisors (or board members).
Whoa, I was excited about someone who wrote the "resignation manifesto letter" that I have been waiting for all of these years from some really ticked off Biglaw associate, but I can't even make myself get through a few sentences of that letter. He sounds like a major windbag!
Nichol, if nothing else, clearly cared about the students at W&M. He would take time to talk to students at every event he attended (which was many) and would genuinely listen to the comments the students gave him.
No matter the politics involved in his decision to leave, he made it clear to all that he wanted the College to succeed.
How did this guy ever practice law if it takes him 6 pages to get to the point. This reaks of arrogance and sour grapes. Afte a parting shot like this, he's done in academia.
I have to imagine he screwed up royally to not even earn a rubber stamp extension after his initial honeymoon term.
For a board to toss him so soon, under protest from alumni and legislators, this guy must have all the grace of bull in a china shop, or worse, he acted proudly and intentionally, believing he was beyond reprisal.
Sour Grapes, I haven't followed the cross and sex-show controversies, but I suspect the guy acted exactly the way he did today by opting to make the school's board look bad and jumping on an opportunity to bring his view of the truth to light (through a tediously long letter, I might add), rather than maintaining some sense of dignity for both himself and the school.
For someone who wanted the college to succeed Nichol really fucked us by resigning. He seems like a guy who pushed his agenda - however laudable his agenda might be - with zero regard for others' opinions. Good riddance. In the end, for all his hype and talk of helping the school, he did it a disservice.
300 years of mediocrity is nothing to be proud of.
For better or worse, Gene Nichol had big ambitions, mixed support, and generally poor instincts during his tenure. He had only the best of intentions, even if he was blind to the potential fallout of his most controversial decisions. If he had been a better politician--that is, if he had been less unilateral in some of his more important decision making--he probably would still be president today.
One should be skeptical of both versions of this story. It's not a secret that Nichol was unpopular with some because of his more "progressive" initiatives. But, the BOV probably would not have been so quick to oust Nichol had he compensated in other ways (i.e., funneling cash into the endowment). Naturally, the brewing political controversy made that far more difficult.
As far as Taylor Reveley is concerned, he is a marvelous statesman and manager, and is supremely qualified to take the reins. He will do a first-rate job guiding the College during this time of transition. One really cannot say enough good things about Reveley. His daily presence in the law school will be missed.
I know nothing about W&M but the ousted President comes off as arrogant and bitter.
D-bag. See, e.g., Gene Nichol.
"[I]n January 1780 William and Mary became the first college in America to offer a formal course of study in law." Davison M. Douglas, The Jeffersonian Vision of Legal Education, 51 J. of Legal Educ. 185, 197 (2002).
Reveley was a SCOTUS clerk. He was also the former managing partner of Hunton & Williams.
mediocrity? surely youre kidding. on what basis do you make that claim?
Has anyone ever read The Human Stain? But can you compare moving a Cross to calling absent students "spooks?" Hmmm...
W&M isn't mediocre. Slipping as of late, but top 30 nonetheless. I expect it to be top 25 again in the next 5 years, and that is not mediocre.
On the basis that we just got a brand new law library and still dropped in the rankings, out of the top 30.
On the basis that we had the lowest in-state (VA) bar passage rate of all VA law schools, save for Tier-4 Regent, for the class of 2007. This means that UVA, W&L, G. Mason, and Richmond all beat us.
Oh zing!
W&M isn't mediocre. Slipping as of late, but top 30 nonetheless. I expect it to be top 25 again in the next 5 years, and that is not mediocre.
On the basis that we just got a brand new law library and still dropped in the rankings, out of the top 30.
On the basis that we had the lowest in-state (VA) bar passage rate of all VA law schools, save for Tier-4 Regent, for the class of 2007. This means that UVA, W&L, G. Mason, and Richmond all beat us.
Oh zing!
Nichol left UNC Law in shambles. Look at our ranking. It's a good thing W&M got rid of him before he could do the same thing there.
You guys got Dean Lewis in OCS in exchange. He's a great guy, btw.
Nobody has mentioned the worst part of this: with Reveley taking over the presidency, Vice Dean Lynda Butler -- who is seriously two beef patties short of a double stack -- will be taking charge of the law school.
US News tier 1 bye-bye!!!!!
He certainly likes himself, based on the number of sentences and paragraphs beginning with "I"
We're a bitter lot. If the place weren't so damned cheap, we'd all be gone.
W&M is a really good law school, that should be much better. They aren't in UVA's tier, but should be ahead of W&L & GW. Their admission selectivity would put them easily into the top 20, but they are too regional in placement and rep.
Also, their professors are good teachers, but not really regarded as big hitters, which costs them a bit on rep. Krattenmaker tried to make some in-roads there.
The undergrad, on the other hand, is stellar, and I dare say better than UVA. Looking at the entire university (as US News does) W&M is ranked slightly behind UVA, but focusing just on the undergrad levels, W&M is actually much stronger on selectivity and placement post-grad. Those kids are a little bit nerdy, but smart and driven.
Kind of interesting that he needs to add items 3 and 4 (which, to my knowledge, were never controversial) to items 1 and 2, which were extremely controversial and wrong on the merits. By including 3 and 4, he is trying to tar his opponents with the racist brush, which is a typical tactic of academic liberals who can't defend themselves on the merits -- "if you disagree with me, you are a racist, even if the original disagreement had nothing to do with race. Don't you dare disagree with me because my motives are pure."
In item 1, he forgets to mention that no one asked the college to remove the cross from the chapel. The fact that the cross existed quietly in the chapel for 200 years apparently was irrelevant to him. Is there a Muslim prayer room anywhere on campus (I bet the answer is yes)? Better remove all of the crescents. Oops, somehow this slipped his mind.
In item 2, he glosses over the fact that the college's use of mandatory student fees for such a controversial program might be problematic. What are the chances mandatory students fees would be used to fund a James Dobson Focus on the Family event?
He also glosses over the fact that given the state of the law (much of which originated in Virginia, by the way), the college would have lost badly if either of these cases had been litigated. At the end of the day, he wasn't engaged in the virtuous protection of the bill of rights, he was engaged in naked viewpoint discrimination.
His departure memo was an unbelievably shabby way to depart. A classless end to the tenure of a classless man. Perhaps he should go to Duke. I hear the Gang of 88 is looking for a few good men, er people.
W&M was the first law school in the country.
UVA grad, I went to W&L and I certainly don't intend to get in a pissing contest with you or any W&M grad, but if being too regional in placement and reputation is W&M's biggest problem, that offers no explanation for how W&L was at one time a top 20 school and is ranked higher than W&M. Since W&L's class size is so small, I would actually think that would help W&M in getting an edge on W&L if that were the only issue. I have worked with W&M grads and have never had any doubts that it's a high quality school with people who are actually nice to be around, but I suspect that you are overlooking some of the criteria that US News takes into consideration. If you have ever been to Lexington, it certainly isn't the ability to live in such an exciting town or the W&L Law building, which is outdated and ugly!
Gene Nichol to 190k!
W&M to the northeast!
Hey W&L grad, it was generous of UVA grad to acknowledge that W&M is better than W&L and GW, even though its not "in UVA's tier." Clearly, UVA grad is a really generous guy/gal!
One of W&M's biggest problems in the US News rankings is their peer assessment score -- W&M profs don't have great publishing histories, with one or two exceptions.
Lazy ass clowns.
Who cares about the goings on at this TTT?
Reveley sent an e-mail to the law school community that he would be back after a permanent president is found.
It is certainly the Law School's gain and Main Campus's loss, but I'm fine with that, being a law student.
w&m to hotter girls!
Who cares? Apparently you do. You're reading this and posting.
I said W&M should be above W&L and GW law, meaning it's not equal to them at the moment. There isn't much difference between them to start with, but when you consider W&M's selectivity, the reputation of their undergrad, and the fact that they are 1/2 as expensive, it doesn't seem that difficult for W&M pull equal or ahead in the rankings.
UVA Grad --
The law school rankings don't consider undergrad reputation. And the fact they are half as expensive actually hurts them b/c per student spending is lower.
Isn't W&L next to VMI? Do VMI cadets and W&L popped collars get along well?
Grant's major blunder was to send Sherman south and let (the gentler) Sheridan run the Virginia campaigns. At one point this kind of problem could have been avoided, but it's too late now. It's so typically American; cure rather than prevent. It always costs more and never works as well.
So the country would have been better off without anything intact in VA? That's nuts. VA's a really nice state, filled with educated people, not a third world dump like other southern states.
Screw you 9:13 PM.
Chill 9:17, I meant AL.
(1) If you think that letter was long you should read some of Nichol's 10 page doozies to every stuent and alumni on indescribably mundane topics.
(2) Revely was the student favorite to be Dean but the BOV chose Nichols, best case for WM is Revely is appointed for good.
(3) What does "Dean Butler is two beef patties short of a double stack" mean?
Is that an intelligence or seual preference reference? She is a UVA law grad btw.
9:13 - You don't see the UGA Board of Visitors jerking itself around over something like this. Those people are in their place. I say bring back Sherman. He's stored next to Ted Williams and they're going to need the space soon, when Bonds self-destructs.
He seems to have left out the logo "feather" controversy as well; the NCAA let us keep the "Tribe" name, but not the tasteful native american feathers on the logo. Regardless, Nichol may be a windbag, but Powell is a well-practiced dissembler (a lesson he learned well from his Dad) and I'm sure is not being entirely truthful.
I only hope it blows over, and they focus on hiring someone who can raise some major cash-sheesh.
9:29 --
I was criticizing VD Butler's intelligence, not her looks. For a fifty-something year old, she's not THAT bad looking. Her interactions with our journals and other student organizations leave a lot to be desired.
9:13; the reason you don't see the U[sic]GA board doing anything is because they don't care about the school's academics. Just sports. Mentioning U[sic]GA in the same breath as W&M or any other school in this thread is a hoot.
U[sic]GA is a minor league sports program that has a school on its campus.
8:12 to make an argument on the merits your facts have to be right .... the cross was only put into the chapel in the 30's and the "Muslim prayer room" is the chapel. It's supposed to be an interfaith facility.
Go Tribe. Hark upon the gale.
blah blah blah - pay close attention now:
I agree completely with your comments about UGA as a university but you need to read the entire conversation before jumping in with an irrelevancy. The reference to UGA (since you seem to need to have it pointed out), was to the suggestion in my 9:11 post (and 9:13's response) that Grant should have had Sherman march through Virginia, not Georgia. I used UGA as a proxy for Georgia (even though Georgia Tech would have been a better example geographically - but it is not a state school), to indicate how Sherman's march had had salutary effects. Maybe they cover the Civil War in high school in your area. If so, hang on, the necessary background information is on the way.
FYI Sandra Day descended on the law school last Friday, and it did nothing to stop this madness!
Gene Nichol is a nice guy, but the biggest risk is not his coming to the law school as a professor, but in losing Taylor Reveley as the dean. Butt-ler is an academic lightweight who lacks the panache Dean Reveley has.
Gene Nichol was the dean while I was at UNC, and my Con-law professor. Great guy, great teacher, great leader. I think he knew that his decisions would get him canned at W&M, but he did it anyways to stick to his ideals. Go Dean Gene!
hey w&m students - how is the new prof, hamilton, working out?
Why do people think Taylor Reveley is that good? He comes off exactly as you would imagine the former MP of Hunton & Williams: arrogant and aloof. He also still lives in FUCKING RICHMOND!
Duke needs to do the same to Brodhead. At least Nichol isn't a named D in several fucking lawsuits.
8:46 am--Hamilton comes off as a lightweight. Her family law class was kind of a joke. Interesting factoid--her husband is a 1L here.
9:42 pm--entirely correct. Not sure what butler does around here but it is not much. i recall her spending a significant amount of her 1L property class asking us to discuss what we did over winter and spring breaks. While TR would make a good president, hope that he comes back to the law school after this is all over.
This is what happens when you get a Hacksaw Jim Duggan impersonator for a President.
Funny he didn't mention his KGB-styled "bias reporting" program.
W&M law student comments on this thread end all doubt (for those who had any) - the place is a TTT. These peopel would make perfect tour guides for Williamsburg though, they have authentic pre-14th amendment values (accents can be learned and drawls dropped). "Tribe" seems a perfect way to describe them. Go Tribe. Piss into the gale.
8:58am - If, by "arrogant and aloof," you mean "eminently approachable." Reveley's a hell of a dean; the rest of the administration may suck, but not TR.
9:55am - your post ends all doubt (for those who had any) that you have an inferiority complex and need to shit on others to feel better about yourself. you will make an outstanding lawyer.
Hark. Upon. The Gale.
I was incredibly impressed with the eloquent letter Nichols wrote. As someone wholly unfamiliar with the controversies surrounding his presidency, this letter struck me as principled and thoughtful – not arrogant and self-serving. I take my hat off to him for taking a strong stance on the First Amendment and recognizing the value in a diversified campus where all feel comfortable that their speech is protected.
1. Second the information RE: Hamilton. Her family law class was one of the worst I've taken here. her husband is like 6'8" and, yes, a 1L. Any other respectable professor, I'd say he'd have a hell of an unfair advantage over his classmates. But in this case ... it's still a wash.
2. All/most of W&M's administrative deans are generally disliked and considered a joke by the students. TR has respect, but the rest make us really ready to get out of here.
3. RE: 9:55am -- We may be TTT, but we get a decent (not the best mind you) education at half the price. You'll be saddled with debt; I have none. I still have the same JD and the same job making 160K startin the the fall. Piss on that you SOB.
POINT - Law School: it's like talking about mothers. I can disparage my own mom, but damned if I'll let you do it you arrogant cocksucker.
Nick was an excellent Dean at UNC in many ways. He is one of the most eloquent and inspiring speakers I've ever heard and he also was not afraid to to champion unpopular (liberal) causes in the local press. He'd be chowing down on barbecue in Wilson, NC one day and supporting gay marriage in the Raleigh paper the next. He was one of those public speakers who, when he was talking to you, could make you feel like you were the only person in the room. Sounds like he was railroaded by the conservative interests on the BOV and the legislature. This is not to say that he probably was not as politically savvy as he needed to be to succeed at W&M. It's W & M's loss but this hopefully will open up a good opportunity for him.
Parker's in Wilson? Not the best BBQ ...
thats good he's teaching again . . . maybe he could teach con law and get some remedial training on the first amendment
Peter Griffin,
No, I do not mean "eminently approachable," and I really have no idea what that means. He pretends to care, but then you realize that the building looks like a high school and he is more interested in hobnobbing with dignitaries than actually making the law school better. He just came across to me as a huge dick who was just playing out the string because he had already made his millions with Hunton.
Wait - I went to W&M UG and am confused. Hark upon the what? WTF does that mean?
You obviously don't know what you're talking about. UGA produced 2 Rhodes Scholars this year. And Georgia Tech is public. Arrogant idiot.
10:44,
Ah! the eternal debate!
UGA is a solid state school. Can't say that I'm all that impressed when I hear W&M.
11:31 -- At Parker's I feel like I am eating in an elementary school cafeteria!
Pierce's Pit outside of the 'burg on I-64 is the best BBQ in the south. That's why Nichol is staying.
Best ribs is Richmond's Buzz & Ned's -- They beat that fag Bobby Flay on throwdown!
I was at UNC Law when Gene Nichol was dean - he's one of the most self-righteous people on the earth (as his email demonstrates) and a first rate horse's ass.
Summary:
Extremely liberal = like Nichol
Not Extremely liberal = the guy is a little annoying and self-righteous
BBQ Debate Summary: anybody arguing for best bbq joint being in Virginia or NC has never been to Memphis.
Dean Reveley is a gremlin.
Pierce's Pitt is amazingly good. I can't vouch for other places, but it is gooooooood.
I am starting WM law in the fall, and I am beginning to regret my decision.
I wouldn't regret it. It's a great place to be and a damn good legal education at a very good price. I like it here and I think most others would agree.
I would agree with 5:14, in that you have to consider the price. For the price, I like it here. If not for the price, I would not like it here.
And about your regret, fear the market more than W&M in the particular. Lat's made it clear, BigLaw summer classes have already shrunk 1/2 - 1/3. W&M places minimally into BigLaw as it is ... so you do the math.
The people that went to law school in the mid-late 70's made all the cash, and now we're catching the bottom of the barrel folks.
I completely agree with 5:14. W&M will allow me to graduate with a loan amount that is three times smaller than what I would have had, if I had gone to a top ten school. At the same time, I don't think it is that hard to get a big firm job from here, unless your grades are pretty low.
3:15 PM: Don't regret your decision. W&M is a great school - you'll get as good an education as "Michigan Law 8:41PM," but you won't pay 3 times as much. Your classmates will be collegial and you won't have to worry about pages being mysteriously ripped out of your books, like at Michigan (a Michigan student told me about this happening).
William & Mary attracts a lot of students who are interested in public service, i.e., individuals who don't measure their inherent self-worth based on their paychecks. Your law school will be rich in history and you'll be blocks away from Colonial Williamsburg.
You have a lot to look forward to.
seems to me like nichol got fired for trying to drag these hicks out of the dark ages.
Let's not kid ourselves "Citizen Lawyer" 7:26pm, esp. if you're a guy, there are certain "metrics" that the world measures you by ... the size of the perverbial "bacon" that you bring home is certainly one of those metrics. You're talking a loser's definition of "public service." A winner's "public service" is his/her 50 hours of pro bono a year ... while billing 2000+ for 160K per annum.
6:39pm - W&M places some in BigLaw, but not much. It should do better than it does. Esp. with the market the way it is, I know for a fact that many 3L's (30-40%) don't have jobs waiting yet, and many 2L's (over 50%) don't have summer associateships yet ... not even with small local firms in Richmond/Hampton Roads.
from W&M, you're really good/lucky if you place into NYC, LA, CHI, etc. You're decent if you place into DC, Charlotte, and good firms in Richmond/Hampton Roads. You're about middle of the class if you get with the lesser local firms. Anything short of 50% ... good luck looking for "public service."
I'm sad to see Nichol go... I liked talking with the guy every time I saw him out at the Leafe.
W&M is what it is... a decent school that gives a good education for a good price. It's definitely not perfect. I got my $160K job coming out of W&M, but I know plenty of people who didn't get jobs until several months after graduation. Going to W&M is definitely a gamble if a BigLaw job is what you want.
I feel sorry for those at W&M who will not have to live under the iron thumb of Dean Butler, the failed academic who does administrative tasks because she can't be trusted with anything else. Reveley isn't perfect (he definitely phones it in most of the time) but he's a damn sight better than Dean Butler or any of the other deans at W&M Law. He's also a hell of a lot funnier and doesn't spend thirty minutes of a fifty minute property class period talking about his kids...
Um, has anyone looked at what an underhanded douche Reveley was as the managing partner of Hunton and Williams? Seriously... it takes a lot to wind up being featured (and not in a good way) in law school ethics textbooks.
Headline reads: Law school dean Reveleying in new role as W&M president
9:09 pm-- dont make general accusations. what did reveley allegedly do that caused him to end up in an ethics textbook? I dont believe you.
@12:44 Memphis bbq is dry and nasty - Pierce's is NC style - "wet" hot and very tasty. You've obviously never been to the 'burg. Other culinary highlights: Cheese Shop and free beers @ Busch Gardens ... ahhh, college ...
@3:15 If you go, the best way to Biglaw is by graduating coif/law review. Otherwise, its an uphill climb. As a former WM UG, anyone who was interested in law school and biglaw did not stay in the 'burg. Think about why you want to go to law school before you make the plunge. Its not for everybody.
So much hub-hub at Bill & The Bitch ...
2:17PM -- NC style is vinegar-based, Pierce's is still tomato(e)-based.
12:27 - I remember reading something about that in my ethics class. I think he basically turned a blind eye to blatant fraud re: billable hours and a bunch of other transgressions at H&W, and some associate who reported it all ended up getting fired.
I'm torn between attending W&M and Rutgers. W&M is higher ranked and many people tell me this is more important but after reading these posts, I'm not sure if W&M will be a good environment for me. Opinions on rankings?
Go to Rutgers, or George Washington - william and mary is a small town, red neck school. As you can see from these posts. Very narrow minded people, who value their racist traditions. Rutgers, George Washington, UPENN are much better.
Actually, I would disagree. I'm from Chicago, and I have found William and Mary to be a great place to go. While Williamsburg is a small town, it is anything but redneck, the race relations are much better than they are in the rest of the south (I'm African-American), and it is a wonderful place to spend a few years. Plus, it's ranked higher than Rutgers, has better job placement than Rutgers, and you don't have to live in New Jersey.
Facing similar dilemma as "Law School?" Except my choice is between W&M and UT-Knoxville. Any advice/suggestions?