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A Seminal Question: Should Prostitution Be Legalized?

Eliot Spitzer Governor Eliot Spitzer prostitute prostitution Above the Law blog.jpgThe scandal surrounding New York Governor Eliot Spitzer, who allegedly patronized prostitutes, raises an interesting issue. It surfaced in some of the comments to yesterday's posts, and it's raised in the defense of Governor Spitzer offered by his former law professor, Alan Dershowitz, on CNN:

"I don't think he should face criminal charges for federal charges for the actual sex act itself.... I know nothing about the financial aspects of it. But this is a traditional state misdemeanor case. And, if anything, he should be charged with a class-B misdemeanor, which is a very, very slight offense, because being a john to an adult prostitute who was making $3,000 to $4,000 or $5,000 sounds to me very much like a victimless crime."

This raises the question: Should prostitution even be a crime?

Of course, some of the outrage over Governor Spitzer's case relates to potential hypocrisy. As New York Attorney General, he prosecuted prostitution rings, and condemned them in harsh language. But setting aside the hypocrisy issue, should what he's accused of doing be a criminal offense?

Or should prostitution perhaps be decriminalized? Take our poll:

Comments
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1 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:41 PM

If it were legal it would be safer.

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2 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:41 PM

If it were legal it would be safer.

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3 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:42 PM

If it were legal it would be safer.

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4 Posted by Firsty McFirsterton | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:42 PM

FIRST

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5 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:43 PM

Would it be safer if it were legal?

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6 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:43 PM

I get it.

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7 Posted by Hof1L:) | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:46 PM

This would NEVER happen at Hofstra!:)

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8 Posted by JamesT | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:47 PM

It would be nice to no longer have to travel to Kit Kat Lane in Moundhouse, NV anymore if the service was legal closer to home.

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9 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:47 PM

I'd approve of it only if it could be regulated some way to protect the women. This street corner stuff is not safe for them.

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10 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:53 PM

SEMINAL OH I GET IT HAHAHA

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11 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:54 PM

I'd approve if we could de-stigmatize male prostitution. Problem is, that will never happen. So I vote "no" for legalizing yet another sexist institution.

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12 Posted by Bishop Don Magic Juan | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:54 PM

Shiiiiiiit. Ain't no gov'ment punk gonna be able to keep them ho's in line.

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13 Posted by Let the comments begin | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:55 PM

Lt. Gov. Paterson is a Hoftsra Law graduate. He also has over 20 years in the NY Senate -- more legislative experience than Obama or Clinton. The person kicking himself the most right now? Andrew Cuomo.

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14 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:55 PM

If it were legal the government would be more likely to collect tax on the earnings.

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15 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:56 PM

Guys in my high school used to prostitute themselves all the time, it was no big deal.

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16 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:58 PM

We have legalized prostitution, just ask Flavor Flav, Brett Michaels, or any of the Bachelors.

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17 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:59 PM

Running for public office: $10 million
Forcing Wall Street Banks into a settlement for tainted stock research: $1.4 billion
Being identified as Client-9 in a federal criminal complaint, a person inducing a prostitute to travel across state lines in violation of the Mann Act: Priceless

There are somethings clean money can't buy. For everything else there's mailing cash in an envelope with no return addres in the hopes it gets there before a scheduled tryst.

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18 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:02 PM

3:59 FTW

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19 Posted by Anonymous | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:05 PM

If it were legal would practitioners be required to have some sort of certification? Perhaps issued based on performance on an entrance exam?

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20 Posted by dershowitz is a douche | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:06 PM

So by dershowitz's logic, prostitution is only a crime when you pay less than market price? What?

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21 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:07 PM

4:05 - "entrance exam" heh heh

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22 Posted by weak | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:13 PM

Apparently, it is difficult for 70% of the readers of ATL to get some without paying for it ....

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23 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:15 PM

4:06, are you trying out the straw man thing, or do you just have poor reading comprehension. Dershowitz is arguing that high class prostitution is a victimless crime. Although street tranny hookers might be victims of oppressive pimps or drug addiction, prostitutes making thousands of dollars an hour are just capitalists.

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24 Posted by Eleanor Rigby | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:15 PM

It was legalized here in Germany ages ago and now all the hookers have proper insurance, legal protection and politicians careers dont get ruined over ridiculous charges...

And of course, the only way to fight human trafficking, underage prostitution and forced prostitution is to offer some kind of legal alternative, which is regulated by the state...

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25 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:16 PM

Lt. Gov. Paterson is legally blind. Do you think he knows he's black?

Cue Dave Chapelle stage right.

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26 Posted by Anonymouse | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:18 PM

I think that for the prostitutes, it should be decriminalized. (Maybe for the Johns, too. And Janes?)

It is disgusting that per the WSJ law blog piece, johns usually get a disorderly conduct infraction while (this part is not in the WSJ) hookers get charged with more serious offenses.

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27 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:20 PM

Apparently, 30% of the readers of ATL thought the question was whether prostitution should be illegal.

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28 Posted by Senator Craig | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:20 PM

It should be legalized with limited regulation (Griswold extension, anyone?).

As for Spitzer, he should get no more than the conventional misdemeanor charge.

As for Spitzer's hypocrisy, well, that's for the voters to decide. At least his romp wasn't in an airport restroom, for no consideration, and with another male (not that there's anything wrong with that).

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29 Posted by Dever | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:21 PM

@4:13
"Apparently, it is difficult for 70% of the readers of ATL to get some without paying for it ...."

I would not conclude that from those stats. I would hazard a guess that 70% would prefer to simply get laid without sitting through a meal with the mere prospect thereof.

We could both be wrong.

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30 Posted by Marc J. Randazza | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:24 PM

Why shouldn't it be legal? That's the real question.

There is no good reason, whatsoever, for prostitution to be illegal. I'm sure that if the founding fathers didn't own slaves that they could bang for free, they'd have written it in as a fundamental right.

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31 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:25 PM

"I'm black?! Does Ma know?"
-----Richard Pryor, playing a blind man, in "Hear no Evil, See no Evil"

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32 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:25 PM

4:21, true, but I bet there is some correlation there. Do you know anyone who feels strongly about marijuana legalization who doesn't also toke up?

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33 Posted by Peter Tosh | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:26 PM

Legalize it.
Don't criticize it

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34 Posted by Victimless crime my a&& | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:28 PM

The real victim (and dumbass) was Spitzer. Paying a hooker $5000 raises all sorts of legal questions, esp. when the going rate (via a cursory glance at Craigslist) is 200-300/hr in New York for a reasonably attractive prostitute.

My first shot would be unconscionability -- horny male, wife who doesn't put out, Mr. A.G. can't go around advertising said case of blue balls due to high-profile political seat so his choices of hookers are accordingly very limited, life as an attorney affords little opportunity for self-relief and thus there is an immediate need for satisfaction, the list goes on...he was bilked out of that 5K; the ho totally took advantage of him.

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35 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:29 PM

Lat, why are you ignoring the most damning angle on this? Spitzer put himself in a position where he could be blackmailed by prostitutes and whatever undesirable elements organize their business (typically the freaking mob).

Do I think prostitution should be legal? I don't know. It's kind of gross and I don't think the government should take any positive steps (like legalization) to encourage it.

Do I think Gov. Spitzer should resign or be impeached? You bet. He has exercised terrible judgment.

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36 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:30 PM

4:25,

Yes, me.

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37 Posted by college guy | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:33 PM

guys in my college would wear togas and frequent the emperor's club all the time, it was no big deal.

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38 Posted by Anonymouse | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:35 PM

Prostitutes have higher levels of PTSD than even Vietnam vets. And the levels are the same for both brothel and street prostitutes.

That suggests there is something inherently damaging in prostitution. It could have something to do with the behavior of some, but not other, clients, but if that is so how would the new laws weed them out?

Also, although Lat doesn't seem to understand this, decriminalizing is not the same as legalizing. You could decriminalize, and still refuse to enforce contracts for meretricious services.

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39 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:38 PM

Yeah but the more money the cleaner the girl is. Any diseased infected person can scrounge up $500, up it to $5k and that means only rich successful people can afford it (and proper medical treatment to keep themselves healthy before and after, and they will be better educated so know to check for diseases)

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40 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:38 PM

4:29, the encouragement argument is just plain silly. If you don't want to f*ck a prostitute, then don't. Why, however, should people who want to be precluded from doing so? Because our moralistic, paternalistic society thinks it should dictate appropriate sexual behavior? Blah.

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41 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:40 PM

"the more money the SEXIER the girl is."

Lets get our hooker facts straight.

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42 Posted by Carl Weatherford | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:49 PM

Once you are talking about big time prostitution ­ and this service went as high as $5500 an hour ­ you can bet organized crime is involved. In general with prostitution, there is no way to ensure that at least some of the women aren’t coerced at least some of the time. At the street level, the average pimp is violent and manipulative. On a broader scale, all of that trafficking of women and children on the rise worldwide is to stock brothels ­ many in countries where they are legal. The Dutch, recently have figured out that not all of the Eastern European girls in their famously picturesque Amsterdam windows came of their own volition. Why do they have to be kidnapped, tricked and often drugged and beaten and kept against their will? Because very few women and girls really want to be prostitutes ­ with the violence and violation of self that prostitution involves.

A second point against legalizing it, is that it is very hard to maintain society-wide moral opprobrium against anything that the state has legalized ­ especially when the state benefits from it. If you make prostitution legal, the state gets to tax it ­ so it has an interest in promulgating it. This is especially problematic in a welfare state. There were some interesting stories out of Germany a year or two ago, noting that, since brothels were legal, young women without skills whose welfare benefits had run out, were being encouraged by their social workers to take jobs as prostitutes. In fact, they were being coerced, with the threat of cutting off any state support. Refusing to be a whore was (is?) being treated no differently than refusing to be a janitor or a maid or any other unsavory but honest labor.

I don’t want my government profiting from prostituting women. I do not, for one moment, believe that making it legal will make it cleaner. It will be the same dehumanizing transaction for the women and children who stock the brothels. It will only make it harder to make a convincing moral argument against selling one’s body or giving it away too freely.

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43 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:53 PM

4:49 - Did you just lift a post from NRO? Weirdo.

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44 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:54 PM

It is perfectly legal to stab myself in the leg with a knife -- but that does not encourage me to do it ("cutters" do it).

"Why do they have to be kidnapped, tricked and often drugged and beaten and kept against their will?" I thought you were talking about law firm associates?!?!

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45 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:55 PM

4:25 - I think prostitution should be legal and have NEVER banged a hooker.

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46 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:56 PM

IF it were legal I could get my law-abiding, stripper girlfriend to make more money! (presumably she can make more offering upgraded services than as a mere "stripper")

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47 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:57 PM

Not everyone can pull the dime-piece strippers that I do for free, so if $5500 is what the market will bear, so be it.

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48 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:57 PM

Prostitution is totally legal -- check out "Erotic Services" on Craigslist. Until they make porn legal -- they won't make prostitution legal.

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49 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:58 PM

should not be legal.

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50 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:00 PM

@4:25: Do you know anyone who feels strongly about marijuana legalization who doesn't also toke up?

Yes - me. I don't smoke or do any other drugs, or use prostitutes, but I think both drugs and prostitution should be legalized.

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51 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:00 PM

Die Niederlände legalized prostitution and now all the hos have to get regular medical checkups or they lose their ho-licenses. Not sure what effect that had on spreading STDs, because the johns always had to use condoms anyway, but at you know the hos are healthy. Legalization also pretty much destroyed the underage/forced prostitution market(s) because the cost of a regulated/legal ho went down so much.

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52 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:03 PM

4:49 - so right - being a john should be considered a sex crime, and E.S. should have to register. Saying anything less would pobably make your wife angry with you.

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53 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:05 PM

5:00 PM: Die Niederland also brought us the African Slave trade (to Caribbean), legalized drug use and the Hague. Not a model of morality -- or of the positive benefits of lax morality.

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54 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:06 PM

4:49, The elimination of society-wide moral opprobrium against prostituion, if it even exists in the first place, is just another benefit of legalizing it.

Further, legalization allows for regulation, which can assuage your concerns about trafficking. And if voters want, they can rally to prohibit cutting off state support for the unemployed who refuse to work as a prostitute.

Lastly, while you seem adamant against the government "profiting from prostituting women," nowhere do you have concerns about prostituting men. Gay men frequent prostitutes as much as breeders do, but you conveniently leave them out of your argument. Do you believe only women prostitutes are victims? Perhaps your moral opprobrium against prostitution is just sexism in disguize.

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55 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:07 PM

Define Prostitution -- because if you mean child-sex-slaves drugged, raped, and beaten into brothels... then yes, I am for legalized prostitution.

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56 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:08 PM

If a woman has a female pimp -- then it should be all good!

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57 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:10 PM

There are gay prostitutes?!?! Where do I sign up!??!?

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58 Posted by Anonymous | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:10 PM

4:49 is dead on

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59 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:11 PM

Are the only posters on this board rut-wing-christian nutjobs?!?! Can we get some sanity?!

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60 Posted by 5:06 | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:12 PM

Edit: "straight" men frequent male prostitutes, too, perhaps moreso than the gays.

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61 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:13 PM

I was beaten, drugged and tricked into making $160,000 per year... am I am lawyer or hooker?

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62 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:13 PM

How can TWO-THIRDS of voters be for LEGALIZATION of hookers -- but it remains illegal. This "democracy" thing is a crock of sheet.

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63 Posted by 5:00 | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:14 PM

5:05 - Their slave trade ended 200 years ago. By your logic, we're not a model of morality for the exact same reason. Our internal slave trade only ended 150 years ago. Ancient history the way I see it.

As to your other points (legalizing drugs, something about den Haag), good for them.

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64 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:15 PM

cant we all agree that male prostitution is worse because they don't get beat up and enslaved nearly as often?

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65 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:18 PM

5:13, that's because (1) the readers of ATL are more highly educated than the majority of voters, (2) the readers of ATL are less likely to be fanatical religious nuts than the majority of voters.

Hmm, I wonder if the two are correlated...

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66 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:20 PM

5:15, the male prostitutes that get beaten up and enslaved cost WAY above market.

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67 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:21 PM

5:06 - the real question is if society's moral opposition to prostitution causes the PTSD and other mental trauma to prostitutes, or if it is an inherent result of prosituting oneself. If it is just a side effect of society telling the prostitute that what they are doing is wrong, then the other arguements hold and prostitution should be legalized. If it is inherently traumatizing and debasing to prostitute oneself, then society's moral outrage towards prostitution is pefectly justified, and it should remain illegal.

Has anyone done studies in Amsterdam, etc. to find if the emotional effects of prostitution changed after it was legalized? Have those societies accepted it as a valid and moral occupation?

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68 Posted by kh | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:22 PM

4:15: More government regulation is NEVER a way to make something better. Take your European socialism elsewhere and long-live the free market.

Also, there are other ways to stop the poor treatment of prostitutes than to legalize it. That argument just doesn't make any sense. The way to stop it is for people to learn the difference between right and wrong. Until that happens, wrongs (especially those committed against prostitution) should continue to be illegal. This is not a victimless crime.

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69 Posted by kh | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:23 PM

4:15: More government regulation is NEVER a way to make something better. Take your European socialism elsewhere and long-live the free market.

Also, there are other ways to stop the poor treatment of prostitutes than to legalize it. That argument just doesn't make any sense. The way to stop it is for people to learn the difference between right and wrong. Until that happens, wrongs (especially those committed against other people) should continue to be illegal. This is not a victimless crime.

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70 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:28 PM

well said 4:45

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71 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:28 PM

Hey! Why don't we make terrorism legal? That way, we can control it and lower the incidents of terror. We can also make it much safer that way. Terrorists can get licenses, and we can all benefit from the revenue!

Why have any criminal law at all? If we legalize something, it just all goes away. Everybody will be automatically nice and clean. Government is the reason people are bad, right?

And - we don't have to stop there: we can legalize gay terrorism (along with gay [whatever]) to avoid any charges of sexism.

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72 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:29 PM

5:20 - not when you push them into your tinted window van fresh off christopher street they don't...

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73 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:31 PM

Whether it is damaging is irrelevant. A woman should be able to do whatever she wants with her body. It's in the Constitution, somewhere.

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74 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:34 PM

5:28 your argument would only make sense if people were being voluntarily terrorized for money. In other words, your argument doesn't make any sense.

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75 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:34 PM

maybe we could track $100 bill that somehow made it from a john to a terrorist, and the the Bush administration could run fear mongering articles that show that supporting your local hooker supports osama. Then we could declare all womens privtaes outside of wedlock off limits by reason of national security and waste millions of taxpayers dollars putting dumb ads that no one watches on TV.

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76 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:39 PM

5:31: The woman, maybe. But that mean that it shouldn't be a crime for the john?

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77 Posted by to 4:49 | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:39 PM

amen !

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78 Posted by 5:28 | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:40 PM

Oh! So you're saying making something legal doesn't automatically lower its frequency, cost, and harms?

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79 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:42 PM

5:34 - terrorism might be the new BDSM for when BDSM gets passe. Sounds kinda hot.

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80 Posted by Anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:44 PM

What constitutes a prostitute is the pursuit of profit.

We're all hookers, and a price can be placed on dignity (apparently).

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81 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:44 PM

Saw Dershowitz defending Spitzer on CNN last night -- what a hack. Lost some respect for him.

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82 Posted by Anonymouse | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:55 PM

to 5:21, Because of the nature of PTSD, I think it is highly unlikely that social disapprobation causes it. PTSD occurs when a event is so traumatic that a person keeps reliving it, often if they are exposed to "triggers"--sights, sounds, smells, experiences that remind them of the trauma.

to 5:31, should we be allowed to sell ourselves into slavery? Or sell our organs? If selling sex is totally acceptable, since parents in most states can require their children to work and are entitled to the money they make, is it okay for parents to sell their children as prostitutes?

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83 Posted by 5:55 | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:57 PM

Good point: we must repeal the 13th amendment, which unfairly outlaws consensual activity.

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84 Posted by TakeItAllBiatch | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:00 PM

If it were legal there'd be more girls willing to sell their services and the business would be more transparent which would foster more competition and so reduce prices. That way us long-suffering docu-monkeys could be hittin' Kristen for $430 (instead of the currently unaffordable rate of $4300) and livin' large like Mister Face Spritzer.

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85 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:01 PM

How can Elliot Spitzer not get Lawyer of the Day on this blog? I can think of no one more deserving.

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86 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:02 PM

5:22/5:23, you make no sense at all. First, criminalizing prostitution IS ITSELF a government regulation! So by your logic, prostituion should be legalized. Second, you blather on about how prostitution is somehow inherently "wrong" without any logic or reasoning to back it up. Are you even a lawyer? You suck at thinking.

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87 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:03 PM

6:00 - wouldn't there also be more demand to soak up the surplus in girls? I'm not sure if such a huge cut in price is likely. If there is licensing, taxes, exams, and regulation, that would also boost the price.

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88 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:07 PM

People have talked about the safety aspect, which an important reason to legalize it. Legal prostitution means it can be regulated to benefit everyone involved.

I haven't read all the comments, so I don't know if this was mentioned, but another benefit of legalization is unionization and other employee protections. As it stands, prostitutes have little voice and are often forced to fork over too much of their pay.

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89 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:09 PM

6:03 - big difference here. Making something illegal does require government intervention: the police, courts, prisons.

Legalizing and regulating something is far more burdensome: "Bureau of Prostitutes," (including full time bureaucracy - maybe in every state) inspectors, notice/comment rule making, AND policy/prisons/courts.

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90 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:19 PM

Support legal, independent prostitutes = Craigslist!!

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91 Posted by Anonymous | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:20 PM

It is legal in Nevada, except in two counties. HBO has a show featuring one (The Bunny Ranch) near Carson City, the state capitol. Much safer, legally, than using craiglist or other on-lines services. Yes, the brothels accept plastic, and I love writing off the expenses.

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92 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:23 PM

6:20 - isn't the senior US Senator from Nevada a . . . Mormon?

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93 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:25 PM

6:23: aka Senate Majority Leader, Mormon.

Prostitution is all-but-legal in vegas with clubs for it...

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94 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:26 PM

5:55 " If selling sex is totally acceptable, since parents in most states can require their children to work and are entitled to the money they make, is it okay for parents to sell their children as prostitutes?"
Apparently only if they are sold to Cravath partners.

Legalizing prostitution is simply not the solution to making it safer or less stigmatizing for the women or men selling themselves. Human dignity is not a commoditity that should be bought, sold, and taxed/regulated by government agencies. And, no, it does not work in Amsterdam, as many of the women there are being sold unwillingly, are drugged, and are abused. Even in Nevada, where prostition in brothels is legal, the illegal street trade remains, as dangerous and violent as ever! I agree with 4:49!!

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95 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:30 PM

5:55, you are an idiot with your illogical parade of horrors (whores!). Of couse parents couldn't force their children into prostitution. That's called statutory rape. Of course people couldn't sell themselves into slavery; the 13th Amendment prohibits that. Most of theis country's problems are caused by the fact that people as stupid as you are allowed to vote.

As far as letting people sell their organs goes, perhaps we should have that right, too.

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96 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:33 PM

According to 6:30, the best solution is to have him decide who votes and who does not. My guess is that everybody who agrees with him gets to vote. Otherwise, you just do what he says, with or without reason.

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97 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:33 PM

You pay for it one way or the other anyway

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98 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:34 PM

I'll never understand how some people come to the conclusion that a feeling of moral superiority somehows translate into moral authority to regulate people who may feel differently.

People are perfectly welcome to self regulate, but please refrain from believing your personal choices are the optimal decisions for each of your neighbors.

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99 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:35 PM

While selling children into prostitution would be statutory rape until the age of consent, what about when the age of consent is 16, or 14, as it is in some states-could the parent then sell the child?
Given that it is being done already, if prostitution were legalized I do believe this would become an issue.
Remember the Cravath partner buying sex with children in 2006?
http://www.nysun.com/article/28483

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100 Posted by 5:31 | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:35 PM

5:39 - Good point. The Constitution is strangely silent about what a man can do with HIS body.

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101 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:36 PM

People "sell themselves" into slavery every day. It's called "going to work."

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102 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:36 PM

6:26, there's nothing inherently undignified about having sex for money. In the 18th century, the artistic and scientific enlightment was facilitated by courtesans, prostitutes who ran the social scene. They held salons where artists and scholars would meet, socialize, and share ideas. To be a courtesan was to be among the most dignified. And what about the Geisha?

The only argument against legalizing prostitution is a Christian one, and that kind of argument shouldn't dictate public policy.

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103 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:37 PM

While selling children into prostitution would be statutory rape until the age of consent, what about when the age of consent is 16, or 14, as it is in some states-could the parent then sell the child?
Given that it is being done already, if prostitution were legalized I do believe this would become an issue.
Remember the Cravath partner buying sex with children in 2006?
http://www.nysun.com/article/28483

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104 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:38 PM

6:36: what about the Muslim argument? I think you lose your head for committing adultery/prostitution.

Once you go to heaven, then the virgins get prostituted all day/night long but not until then!

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105 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:41 PM

6:36, you seem to be forgetting that in the 18th century, when your courtesans were so dignified and living such wonderful lives, women were otherwise property of their fathers or husbands. Your argument is absurd. And, one need not be a christian to believe that selling oneself is an affront to human dignity.

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106 Posted by 6:36 | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:41 PM

6:38, I think you're being tongue-in-cheek. If not, you're right, replace "Christian" with "religious."

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107 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:42 PM

Isn't there a Jewish argument against prostitutes, too?

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108 Posted by ame | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:42 PM

Whatever happened to that Florida professor who picked up a ho in his mercedes. Their was all kinds of tierist/racist talk. Now we want to legalize prostitution when someone the likes of the hypocrite Spitzer gets caught up.

I am less concerned about his frailities where hos are concerned. I am however, disappointed that he was not a more skillful politician, since he's ruined the lives of so many wonderful capitalists. Payback's a bitch!

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109 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:43 PM

The Jews would be more open minded.

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110 Posted by Anonymouse | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:43 PM

To 6:30,

Before you go calling people idiots, perhaps you should do some legal research. The age of consent in many states is below the age of majority, so children having sex would not be statutory rape.

Also, the point with slavery is that by your logic, the 13th amend. should be repealed. And also, laws banning statutory rape. Because if there is valid consent, you say yay! Free markets.

to 6:36,
the geisha, hetairae, and courtesans are all very interesting people, but many of them died in ignominy and poverty, could never marry and have children, and for every one of them there were hundreds or thousands of street prostitutes. My argument isn't a Christian one, it is a human dignity one. And if you think Christianity is the only religion that opposes prostitution, I don't know where you've been.

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111 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:43 PM

Yeah! Once we put a label on the other side's argument, we win!

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112 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:46 PM

What is it with powerful men? Seems they get a bit of power, and then think with the "wrong" head, and, inevitably, get caught.
Legalizing prostitution is not the answer, getting men out of power altogether might be a good start, though...

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113 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:51 PM

@ 6:43

I'm amazed that you think something as powerful as human dignity could be erased by selling sex for money.

Question: Is human dignity erased by the selling of one's labor in other regards? Or just sex?

I suppose my issue is this: Why should sex in particular be tied to human dignity? It seems like a tidy social convention that most of us ascribe to, but not particularly meaningful beyond that.

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114 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:52 PM

We all sell ourselves every day. People only get worked up about prostitution because sex is involved.

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115 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:53 PM

Lawyers sell themselves even more than the average person. We are basically intellectual whores, selling our intellect to advance someone else's cause. Being a lawyer should be illegal.

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116 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:56 PM

6:43 "It seems like a tidy social convention that most of us ascribe to, but not particularly meaningful beyond that."

Considering that it is a social convention that most of us ascribe to, and one that humans have ascribed to throughout history in various cultures, saying it is "not particularly meaninful beyond that" is just ridiculous. One could argue that all morality is simply a "tidy social convention that most of us ascribe to" but, I doubt you'd be willing to argue that morality is simply meaningless. Or, maybe you would?

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117 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 6:58 PM

6:43, you raise a good points. The age of consent issue is one that would have to be worked out. Perhaps instead of statutory rape, it would just be rape since the child is being forced into prostitution.

But slavery is counter to my libertarian perspective, even without the 13th A. Prostitutes willingly have sex for money. Slaves aren't willing, and even if one were to willingly sell oneself into slavery, the institution of slavery doesn't provide an "out" should the once-willing slave change his or her mind. Also, I agree that there is an age below which one can't give meaningful consent. My positions on slavery and statutory rape, therefore, are not inconsistent.

The courtesan/geisha argument was to counter the idea that sex-for-cash is inherently undignified, not to argue that their position was somehow enviable. Those that didn't die in ignominy or povery were well respected and probably happy.

I also happen to have two acquaintances who are prostitutes. Admitidly, in the case of one, his career choice is likely the result of a psychological issue (total nympho), but it's definitely not the cause. He's a university student getting well paid for something he'd do anyway. Both, however, are happy, functioning people.

You're taking my "Christian" argument too literally. Religious arguments from any source have no place in public policy.

Finally, many of the people opposed to legalizing prostitution forget that prostitutes can still say no.

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118 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:01 PM

Actually, 6:56, if you look at the results from the poll, "most of us" don't ascribe to your social convention.

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119 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:01 PM

Since concepts of morality change over time there is a strong argument that morality is meaningless. Or, not meaningless, but subjective and variable and something that should be up to the individual and not imposed by law. You are basically just trying to impose your subjective, current-day morality on everyone. That's exactly what people tried to do when they banned interracial relationships, homosexual acts, etc. They were simply protecting human dignity and morality, at least the way they saw it.

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120 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:03 PM

prostitution is filthy. it is morally wrong.

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121 Posted by Anonymouse | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:03 PM

to 6:51, human dignity is not "erased" but rather harmed by selling sex because the person is treated as a means to an end (sexual pleasure) instead of as an end in themself. Could you say the same thing about labor? Perhaps. But people usually don't develop PTSD from office work. The harms are very real--what about STDs? And no, condoms are not 100% effective against any STD.

Let's say people somehow get PTSD because of "disapproval" (which isn't possible, but nevermind.) In order for it to be ethical to legalize (not decriminalize, mind you) the practice, I think you would first have to solve the social disapproval problem, so you aren't consigning a large number of prostitutes to PTSD.

You don't see how it would be demeaning to be ordered to perform sex in a certain way? For reals? If you were the one taking the orders? By someone you found unattractive?

And I do think that human dignity can be disrespected in other workplaces as well. The abusive screaming boss. The one who hits you or threatens you. Those are also working conditions that are demeaning.

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122 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:04 PM

Making consensual activity illegal because some people don't like it is the antithesis of freedom.

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123 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:06 PM

7:01, the poll is far from accurate, or representative of any broad segment of society. Maybe most of the ATL readers support legalization, but, that is not saying much.

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124 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:06 PM

6:56 - slavery was once a social convention that most Americans ascribed to, and one "that humans have ascribed to throughout history in various cultures." By your logic, then, arguing that slavery is immoral is "just rediculous."

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125 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:10 PM

6:58

Abortion does not have an "out" either.

Kicking religion out of public policy would kick out 99% of political philosophers from history, especially the US founders. It's much easier to win an argument when you disqualify almost the whole field of debate, isn't it?

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126 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:16 PM

First of all, the government "protects us from ourselves" in a myriad of ways, some arguably good, some not so. 7:03 has it right, prostitution allows the use of a person as a means to another's sexual pleasure for an exchange of money...it is in this use as a means that dignity is affronted. It is an affront to dignity because of, among other things, the intimacy of the act itself (not to mention the real fact that it could result in the conception of a child) and current societal conventions regarding the body/sex. Maybe if society completely changed it's attitude about sex and women, then the argument would change in that other, different, world. For now, we live in this reality, where legalizing prostitution is a terrible idea as prostitution is an affront to human dignity.

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127 Posted by Dershowitz is an idiot | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:16 PM

Most prostitutes make thousands of dollars an hour.

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128 Posted by guest | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:17 PM

7:03 - the prostitute doesn't have to take orders or sleep with someone he or she finds unattractive.

Further, your PTSD argument isn't convincing. First, I haven't seen evidence that prostitutes have a higher incidence of PTSD. Second, even if I did, that doesn't mean selling sex for money CAUSED the PTSD. Because prostitution is illegal, the type of person that might become a prostitute might already have psychological or drug problems increasing the likelihood of developing PTSD. Finally, even if prostitution as it exists today IS a cause of PTSD, we don't know what aspect of the job causes the disorder. Assuming that the majority of prostitutes are working in oppressed conditions, it's likely those conditions that cause PTSD, not the act of having sex for money. Legalizing prostitution would therefore remove the very conditions that cause the PTSD.

You and others who base their position on morality or the "ick" factor will not likely be persuaded by logical arguments supporting the legalization of prostitution. My hope is only that rational others are exposed to these arguments as a result of the current "scandal."

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129 Posted by anon | Permalink Tuesday, March 11, 2008 7:17 PM

First of all, the government "protects us from ourselves" in a myriad of ways, some arguably good, some not so much. 7:03 has it right