ATL Public Service Announcement: Beware of Law School Listservs
Email screw-ups and law school listserves have provided us with tons of material in the past. Today's cautionary tale comes to us from NYU Law School:
"Reply all" has its pitfalls, but so does the "reply to" address. Yikes![This student] was replying to an email from the professor sent out after the semester was over. The prof had sent the email via a listserver, so even if you just hit "reply" instead of "reply all," everyone's going to see it. The very same pitfall with the very same listserve caused a smart kid to broadcast an email griping because he had too many circuit court clerkship interviews one day.
And here's the email that was sent to the listserv:
Prof. [xxxx],I am writing to inquire about my grade in last semester's [xxxx] class. I turned in the exam feeling that I had under-represented what I actually learned, but I was still somewhat surprised to recieve a C in the course. If you get a chance (and it is appropriate), could you tell me if the grade was purely the result of a sub-par exam or if other factors were included?
Thank you,
[xxxx]
By the way, this is not very skillful grade-grubbing. An email is too easily ignored, and it lacks emotional force. If you want to grade grub, set up an appointment with your professor, and do it in person.
Let them see you, in the flesh -- and with tears in your eyes. Make them fully understand how they've shattered your dreams of a Vault 10 law firm job or a feeder-judge clerkship -- unless, of course, they revisit their prior determination, and give you a grade that more accurately reflects your true abilities....
(70) Comments
am i first?
First to state that this person is a whiny, gunner destined for failure.
WOW- must have really tanked that exam- Generally you get a B just for showing up.
i know for a fact how hard it is to get a C in a top 14 school. you really have to write something hideous to do that poorly. so this kid has no common sense.
Kid deserves a C. He spelled "receive" wrong in his grade grubbing email.
It's a set-up - the gunner wants the professor to "reply all" that there must be a mistake, as the gunner actually high-papered the course. Then the gunner would reply, "oh, that's right - silly me!"
to whomever poured coffee in my locker ...
What other factors go into grading aan exam?
REPLY: Dear Student- the C you received was not so much a function of your performance but mainly due to t"other factors" including the fact that I consider you to be douche.
Reply: I also took into consideration attendance and after a review of my attendance sheet it was apparent that you came to class 3 times. It seems the C you received on the exam was excellent considering. Congratulations.
Dear XXXX,
I decided to give you a C after I was informed by the Registrar the amount of paperwork I would be required to accomplish if I awarded you a D or F grade--which you deserved. I trust you will appreciate that we both are better off now, and will spend more time preparing in the future.
Prof. XXXX
ROFL @ 4:33 (ii)!!!! NYLS peeps are so amusing.
Perhaps, this "listserv" is shedding some light on the rash of suicides at NYU in recent years.
I got a C+ in 1 class in law school. I don't think its that uncommon. Especially since the median at graduation is around a 3.32 - 3.33. I mean, you do need to balance out that A you got in some other random course, right?
4:33(2) was an actual situation at University of Chicago (circa 2005)
4:38, it's not uncommon at all...if you're stupid.
Wake up David -- going to NYU shattered the dream of a clerkship -- NYU's placement is pathetic compared to near-by ranked firms. One C will have zero effect on hiring... even at V10. I know people at Cravath with several C's (albeit not at Wachtell). Skadden associates have many C's (from top ten schools).
I gave you a C because you forgot the "C" in "IRAC" -- otherwise you would have had an A+!
Note: you can leave out the A of IRAC and still get an A or B! But you forget that C...
C Student at NYU = 4.0 at any law school out side top-10!!!
Bottom of the class; top of the heap!
I like how he says that he "under-represented what I actually learned." I mean, if the professor doesn't jack up his grade because of that, there's something wrong.
4:24 - look into the difference between whoever and whomever.
FLAME,
No T-14 school gives a C. I (CCN, clearly not N) had a 6 hour take home which I read later and will be the first to say it was shit (tons of typos, no proof reading, and rambled) and it still got a B- (which only 2 kids in 100 get.)
At NYU you can afford to take a few C grades- it doesn't really impact your options- The world knows you are super bright because you went to NYU Law (assuming your last name isn;t Kennedy).
In the objective case, whom is used in two ways: (1) as the object of a verb; and (2) as the object of a preposition.
But, if you actually had coffee poured in your locker (or more likely animal feces) you are certainly the person using "whomever"...correctly or incorrectly.
I attended NYU my 1L year and, although I didn't personally receive one, I do know of several intelligent students in more than one class that got C's or below. This was about five years ago.
You're lucky to get this many posts out of an email as lame as this one Lat. Still in Chicago and mailing it in?
I've taken exams drunk, I've even gotten drunk while taking an exam. I've taken exams for classes I literally never attended. I've still never gone lower than a B.
What the hell do you have to do to get a C?!
"What the hell do you have to do to get a C?!"
Fall within the part of the curve that is below the cutoff for mandatory B's and above the cutoff for mandatory D's.
That you managed to do well despite an obvious lack of intelligence is impressive.
5:12, your ability to read the text "What the hell do you have to do to get a C?!" in a stupidly literal manner is very nice, but not terribly useful. Perhaps it will allow you to make stupid arguments in favor of privilege that will be shot down by those who actually know what they're doing.
The drunk's question was clearly how much dumber than her/himself the C student was, and how mind-boggingly dumb, as an absolute matter, that must be.
Another useless NYU student. Would never happen at Fordham.
more than anything this strikes me as kind of a weird invasion of the dude's right to keep his goofy e-mail mistakes private within the educational community he pays 40k to be a part of.
the ability of some random law student to tip off this blog and start a pretty public joke within the class just makes it seem like the blog is getting into borderline xoxo territory here. whatever news value this had would've been preserved with the minor and obvious editorial discretion of not naming the school.
5:21 - Your attempt to sound erudite while actually committing the exact "sin" of which you accuse me, leads me to believe you are an example of how mind-boggingly dumb one must be to get a C.
Nice try
THIS IS A GOSSIP BLOG -- THIS STUPID EMAIL IS PERFECT GOSSIP. THE NAME HAS BEEN HIDDEN TO PROTECT STUDENT (AND, INEXPLICABLY, PROFESSOR). ANY EMBARRESSMENT BY STUDENT WAS ALREADY TO BE HAD BASED ON LISTERV QUIRKS.
Put some D's on that b!%$ !!
"By the way, this is not very skillful grade-grubbing. An email is too easily ignored, and it lacks emotional force. If you want to grade grub, set up an appointment with your professor, and do it in person.
Let them see you, in the flesh -- and with tears in your eyes. Make them fully understand how they've shattered your dreams of a Vault 10 law firm job or a feeder-judge clerkship -- unless, of course, they revisit their prior determination, and give you a grade that more accurately reflects your true abilities...."
got some experience here lat?
5:23 take it up with listserv -- not Lat.
More to the point -- the name should be published -- who wants to work with a whiney C student? I know I do!!! ("who wants a mustache ride?!?")
5:23-- i agree. the kid feels bad as it is, no need to throw it up on a blog. it's not the same as making fun of famous people that everyone knows.
4:50
you clearly don't get it.
Someone is going to get outted on this blog and then kill themselves... like that advertising guy (see NY Post). These blogs should be banned!
Who(m)ever forwarded this poor C student's email to Lat should be outted -- to at least the C student--if not all of us. If you are the shameless, gutter-dwelling loser that would forward this email to the entire world... you deserve a donkey punch!
"Fall within the part of the curve that is below the cutoff for mandatory B's and above the cutoff for mandatory D's."
What kind of TTT school has mandatory C's and D's? I am almost certain that NYU, like the top schools it claims are its peer schools, have C's and D's OFF the curve (that is, completely discretionary).
5:44 - how are you enjoying that C?
NYU has no mandate for Cs, Ds and Fs. However, profs are given latitude to dip down into the low grade pool.
As a general rule, it is only visiting profs who give lower than a B- unless you REALLY screwed up. Visiting profs have been know to drop Cs and Ds because they don't have to deal with the mess the next semester.
Grade curves are published at the school for most classes (not for clinics). Therefore, anyone at NYU Law can confirm the fact the Cs and below are given out in every level of law school class. However, there are many, many classes where there is no grade lower than a B-
Anyone--
Can you please explain how a student being concerned about his low grade and asking a professor why he received it is "news", even gossip news, and why it is of interest to anyone reading this? Doesn't this happen to people at every law school? Why does anyone care?
At Fordham one C and you might as well (I) drop out; (ii) get to work on finding a nice DA job (if you are lucky; (iii) not waste your time emailing the prof because you need to find a job.
At NYU, you have the opportunity to email the prof, make a huge mistake and an ass out of yourself and still have enough time and clout to get a nice job during EIW (at least before the market went south).
Looks like that person at NYU picked the wrong year to pick up a C.
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue."
Giving Cs! NYU deserves to be confused with NYLS if they are going to act like a TTT
629 - The news is neither the grade, nor the request for the prof to review the grade.
The news is:
A) the accidental send to all the email
B) a warning to all so that they do not do the same thing
C) this is sort of a man-bites-dog piece of new/gossip and/or train wreck piece of news
This sort of item would never make it in a WSJ format and it would be doubtful in NYT (but see McCain affair story). However, this sort of thing makes news in the NY Post or NY Daily News, especially in the gossip column all the time.
If you want to call Lat on this story you should also call for the closure of People magazine and its ilk. After all, they have sections predicated on embarrasing moments of people of note and they publish their names.
In conclusion, People, NYP and the DN are called tabloids. They serve an important, yet skanky purpose as conveyers of information. ATL is a gossip blog, not a news outlet.
Go to any journalism prof or newsman/woman and ask them if the post is appropriate, especially in light of the redactions. Not one person would bat an eyelash at this publication.
If you are looking to spend time fighting for a cause, try HIV or homelessness; the kid from NYU will be just fine.
sweet, a listserv. It's like time travel back a decade.
hahahahahaha!
can you really discuss changing a grade with a prof at NYU? here at my "top ten," unless there's been a clerical error, get a C, stuck with a C. sucks for me :-(
must have been a 1L -- never heard of 2Ls or 3Ls getting anything lower than B- (and that's usually less than 1 or 2 people at that)
5:05 -- Mess up on the multiple choice section of the exam. That's one easy way for a smart student to get a crappy grade. Harvard may not give out C's, but the schools that have tight curves sure do.
1. Who the fuck 'grade grubs' in law school? You take what you get. Yeah, I agree with some of the other comments - not sure what T14 you are at (or T10 or T6 or whatever the fuck you use to massage your ego) but here at my 'T6' (ah massage) you pretty much get what you get. Doesn't mean you can't bitch out a professor or, more admirably, go to them and ask for insight into the grade (if they have any)
2. Yeah, agree, you have to fuck up pretty damn bad to get a C, even at schools with mandatory curves. On the other hand, it isn't SO hard to get a C in a legal writing course - take one asshole teaching fellow, throw in a dose of not giving a fuck, and voila - a nice 'oh shit' moment.
Chicago requires professors to give as many Cs as they give As for any class over 50. They use some crazy grading system (out of 186 points), but everyone knows what's a C and what's an A.
10% of the class gets a C at my T10. So for any "average" student, it seems likely that he would fall short at least once in 3 years.
Most of the top 10 schools have grade distribution requirements for classes with over 40 or 50 students. At least 1 or two students (sometimes several) will get a C+ or C in those classes. Seminars/small classes usually bottom out at B+ or B at the very worst.
1L courses at NYU don't have mandatory C grades in the curve. They are completely discretionary. Many professors don't give out grades lower than a B-.
What does this have to do with hedgehogs?
So if thats the case, is NYU's curve significantly higher than other schools? Cause they are the first good school that I know of that doesn't really hand out C's.
Cause if no one gets C's, then it would seem that the average would be significantly over a 3.3, as long as a few people got A's.
WACHTELL!!!
4:23 -- hilarious.
5:23 -- I checked, that's not a real right.
As an NYU student: I think I know who this was, and the grade WAS a mistake.
I don't think this guy knows what to do after a C. Cf. 4:22.
Unless you want to take a professor to a misconduct hearing and show that they discriminated against you, you aren't getting your grade changed. I don't care who you think you are.
Maybe a school would do something if a highly promising clerkship candidate 3L received an inexplicably awful grade, but for a 1L who just thinks he is hot shit with nothing else to prove it? Get real.
Law schools don't change grades baring gross misconduct by professor or, in some cases, student. And that is something we can be thankful for.
http://www.law.nyu.edu/depts/studentaffairs/publications/handbook/grades.pdf
C's are not mandatory at NYU.
Most of the T1's use a 3.3 median GPA target for 1L's. Some exceptions are Chicago (whatever those mean), Boalt and Yale (honors/pass/shitty) and Wisconsin (2.85-3.1 target because they have diploma privilege).
Even with no mandatory Cs the median at NYU is less than a 3.3. I think it's somewhere between 3.1 and 3.2.
GW is 3.17-3.25 for large classes going up to about 3.4 for small classes.
grade curve differed by class, many included a place for c's, and i recall at least one that include a place for "c- and below"
As a student at NYU who was in this class, let me say a couple things:
1) It was not a first year class. The exam was a killer and this particular professor in this particular class has a history of giving a larger-than-average number of B-s, Cs, and even (gasp) Ds.
2) Something was weird with the class listserv. Whenever you hit "reply" to an email sent by the professor to the entire list, the reply went to the list instead of directly to the professor. I almost learned the hard way.
That said, give the kid a break.