Charging $1,000 an Hour Is For Chumps
Posted below is the European fee schedule of Allen & Overy. At current exchange rates -- approximately $1.55 to the Euro, and $2.00 to the British pound -- this means that partners bill out at about $1,050 an hour in Paris, and $1,190 an hour in London. Says a source: "Twelve-hundred bucks an hour for a partner in London? Ridiculous."
On the other hand, if a $1,200-an-hour partner can solve your problem in six minutes -- with a well-placed telephone call, or an absolutely brilliant judgment call -- maybe she's worth it. Perhaps you should be more worried about $600-an-hour junior associates (to say nothing of $350-per-hour paralegals).
(49) Comments
Are prostitutes more expensive in those countries too?
For $1200/hr, a wombat will do just about anything. $800/hr for Kash.
Allen Overy lawyers are not worth the paper money is printed on.
3:57, you mean the wombat would charge less for the privilege of having Kash as a client right. Surely you aren't suggesting that Kash herself would be available for a mere $800/hr. That's just stupid.
Is there any such thing as an "absolutely brilliant judgment call" in the sense you appear to mean-- a flash of insight so profound that it immediately resolves whatever apparently intractable legal problem compelled your sophisticated corporate client (and its general counsel) to seek out your high-priced law firm in the first place? If there is, I've never seen it in years of practice.
These rates are fair but only if the partner went to Boalt. Its a top 6 school, in case you hadn't heard.
The ratio between partner and junior associate rates seems off when compared to actual value. There's no way a 1st year associate is worth as much as (GB) or more than (Paris, Prague) half the value of a partner.
In Europe the few firms milk clients like crazy. Magic circle firms - of which AO is probably the bottomfeeder - have such control of market that clients stuck paying outragous fees.
I don't think the big deal is that a partner is at 1,000 an hour ... i think the big deal is a junior associate billing out at $600/hr. They don't even know anything.
Is the translator for translating the legal bills into something that the client can understand?
I can't figure out how to squeeze a "TTT" into my comment on this post.
4:03 - Six minutes may be an exaggeration.
But I could see a brilliant partner solve a problem in, oh, half an hour (provided that junior colleagues do all the factual and legal research, and serve up the issue for her on a silver platter).
For $1200/hour, I'd want to Superman the partner.
Meh, the only people this matters to are the American companies doing international deals requiring Euro firms to work that end.
This says more about the weakness of the dollar. If the dollar was strong and, say 1.4 dollars to the pound, then these rates wouldn't seem that crazy. You can't expect UK firms to lower their fees because the dollar is weak. Makes no sense.
Don't forget taxes. Those London and Paris partners and associates are paying Obama-level taxes.
$1200/hr is just about what a 3-diamond cost at the Emperor's club. Which is the better deal?
Taxes in europe are on par with or lower than taxes in New York City. You're forgetting they get free healthcare and the tax rate in NYC is about 45% not including things like health insurance and college for the kids.
For $1,200 an hour I want 2 lines of coke and an orgasm to go with that opinion counsel.
By jove, these chaps at NYC law firms used to charge us 500 pounds an hour, but suddenly in the last year or so paying their fees costs us more like 400 pounds an hour. Astonishing! It's as if fluctuations in exchange rates leads to fees charged in another country sounding like more or less depending on the variation. Also, colour.
"Also, colour." = best punch line of the day.
Wow, you guys should really move out of NYC, you're paying more in taxes than semi-socialist Europe.
Linklaters charges WAY more for Partners in London. Get on this...
Um, Clifford Chance is the bottom-feeder of the magic circle. A&O at least had the self-respect not to acquire a dumpy bucketshop like Rogers & Wells, and keep the name for a few years while overpaying the R&W partners.
Don't be fooled - these are "standard rates". Firms create artificially high "standard rates" so they can tell clients they are giving them big discounts, when in effect, no one is actually charged the "standard rate"
I've heard of a couple of magical stories where a corporate partner advised a client and made a phone call. In one instance, it helped avoid a multi-million dollar lawsuit, and the other, it saved a deal. But that's just lore.
I've heard of a couple of magical stories where a partner answered a simple, not-very-important question and billed 3 or 4 hours to the client. That's not just lore.
re "standard rates"
Most firms also have premium rate(s) and will charge certain clients or certain transactions at higher (sometimes much higher) than standard rates.
My ho's used to charge $1,200 an hour all the time.
It was no big deal.
That in London, most UK-trained attorneys have to be trainee solicitors for 2 years, so when you see junior associate, that's really third year and up.
And many UK firms have very, very few paralegals--the trainees do their work.
And a Whopper is 5 pounds too. So what's your point?
The funny part about all this is how little you get for your money, as anybody who has worked with English counsel can attest. Aside from an accent and cute little archaic conventions - the value added by most English lawyers is negligible. Junior UK lawyers are basically paralegals who move "bundles" around all day long - what we would call binders full of paper. Senior UK lawyers have progressed past the bundle stage and can't write for shit, but make long florid irrelevant diatribes about things they don't really understand. Then they retire to their little clubs (or inns of court in the case of barristers) and give each other spankings all day long.
Nice work if you can get it.
in london at least, 'junior associates' actually have 2 years of legal experience as a trainee (though not in the same practice area as trainees get assigned to different practice areas throughout their training), which is what is required by the uk law society to be qualified
"this means that partners bill out at about ...$1,190 an hour in London."
No, they bill out at 595 pounds in London. Dollars are 6 years ago.
"this means that partners bill out at about ...$1,190 an hour in London."
No, they bill out at 595 pounds in London. Dollars are 6 years ago.
You have to be a major fucking retard to convert costs directly as a multiplier of currency. Guess what, a BMW costs about the same number of euros in Germamy as it does dollars in the US. As far as they understand it, in the local market 500 euros "seems" like $500, and they aren't getting their panties in a wad that coffee costs $2.00 even if it has no espresso in it.
4:54: Its called "Purchase Power Parity"... or "Big Mac Effect" -- what is the real cost of a Big Mac around the world, as one measure.
"On the other hand, if a $1,200-an-hour partner can solve your problem in six minutes -- with a well-placed telephone call, or an absolutely brilliant judgment call -- maybe she's worth it. "
Anyone else think it's unlikely that a female could solve a problem in 6 minutes? Using judgement?
Who would think that maybe legal services will be outsourced to the US.
Who would have thought the US might eventually become an outsourcing source for legal services? God bless the weak dollar.
Thomas Paine
I don't know what sort of UK counsel have you been working with, but my experience working the likes of Slaughter & May and Allen & Overy have been excellent - good quality work that I would expect from a good NY law firm. I would also add that their first year associates (after 2-year training contracts) are generally better suited to corporate practice than the average first year at a good NY firm.
"I would also add that their first year associates (after 2-year training contracts) are generally better suited to corporate practice"
US Law School to 1 Year!
9:49--yes, I know it's called Purchase Power Parity. But on a law board, everyone thinks PPP is profits per partner, and explaining PPP in economic terms is like conveying rocket science to donkeys.
2:06 - not sure what you're getting at, but UK solicitors have to do a 3-year law degree, then a 1-year legal practice course, followed by a 2-year training contract (total 6 years) before becoming a first year associate.
In contrast, US attorneys do a 4-year college degree, followed by a 3-year law degree (total 7 years) before becoming a first year associate.
yes, but the two years training contract is within the firm...thus after 6 years english lawyers have spent 2 years honing their skills in a commercial context. Their US counterparts are still admiring the view from the ivory tower that is the world of academic law 1 year later.
yes, but the two years training contract is within the firm...thus after 6 years english lawyers have spent 2 years honing their skills in a commercial context. Their US counterparts are still admiring the view from the ivory tower that is the world of academic law 1 year later.
yes, but the two years training contract is within the firm...thus after 6 years english lawyers have spent 2 years honing their skills in a commercial context. Their US counterparts are still admiring the view from the ivory tower that is the world of academic law 1 year later.
I'm a trainee at a mid-tier international firm based in the city. I'm billed out at around 180 quid an hour. I do mindless jobs like bibling and proof reading. It is true, lawyers are charged out at far too much.
Wow, those english lawyers sure sound like they are really honing their skills in bibling and proofreading!
Compare:
"english lawyers have spent 2 years honing their skills in a commercial context. Their US counterparts are still admiring the view from the ivory tower"
vs.
"I'm a trainee at a mid-tier international firm based in the city. . . I do mindless jobs like bibling and proof reading. "