What school is ranked FIRST?

Is he implying that the US News ranking system is a joke?

FLAME

If the USNWR rankings are a "joke," then why are they so influential? Why do law school deans engage in all kinds of chicanery to move up a spot or two?

They may be flawed, but they are probably the best we've got.

that article could have been funnier.

They're only influential because students take them so seriously. They therefore provide an easy index for employers because students will go to the best school they got into. And then they actually become accurate. The US News ranks is freakin powerful, the more I think about it. Or I'm extremely hungover.

George Mason is a perfect example of playing the USNews game.

Wait, so Penn State is ranked in the top ten? Is it the highest ranked state school?

9:25 - Sure. But he did have a few good lines (Yale, Michigan, Texas).

Penn State plays the USNews game, too.

wow, the trolls are out yet again... 9:30, I hope you get still more penn d-bags to fall for it

everyone plays the US News game... GMU won it

not funny at all

the admin and student body at gmu law is completely obsessed with these rankings.

it's pathetic.

Read the post below this one about d-bags in the Second Circuit ("Lawsuit of the Day").

It is funny.

9:20 - you say that "deans engage in all kinds of chicanery to move up a spot or two" is a fact that weighs in favor of the USWNR rankings being legitimate?

I think the exact opposite.

Are we sure this list is legit? Who sends a highly confidential inter-office memo in script font and expects to be taken seriously?

9:48... if you look up, you can see the word gullible written on the ceiling

And, as a follow-up, it is undeniable that the rankings are influential.

The important question is whether they are rightfully influential. One way, in my opinion, to judge that is to consider whether a higher ranked school produces better practitioners than a lower ranked school. (Another way would be to consider whether a higher ranked school produces a better job candidate, etc.)

I have no data, but judging from the variety of schools represented at the partnership levels of major firms, I doubt that a higher ranked schools consistently produce better practitioners than one below it. (Though perhaps that would be true by looking at "blocks" of schools, broadly, for example, comparing T1 to T2 and to TTT).

(Also, I think the rankings ARE rightfully influential if judged by the second question - producing job candidates).

skeptic - of course it is legit - the so called "script" font is used in confidential memos because it is more difficult to copy on those newfangled Xerox machines.

930's retarded.

Hofstra to T14!!!

9:58, why? Am I wrong about something? Is Penn State not a state school?

9:58 must go to a TTT and is obviously a pirate.

10:09 - Penn State is ranked 91st and is wholly separate and distinct from UPenn, which ranked in the top ten.

Penn 2L, you're an idiot, and making us all look like the same (not to mention douches). Am I really at a school where people are dumb enough to fall for these trolls?

MINNESOTA Woot Woot!

10:12 - thanks for clarifying. I went to Penn State one time to visit some friends. We had a great time at Smokey Joe's.

How on earth is PENN equal to Chicago? They are not close in any category: reputation, clerkships, per capita reps at top 100 firms, professors, writing, psychotic students, admit standards, bar passage rate, law review reputation, faculty prestige. US NEWS IS A FUCKING JOKE.

Penn IS NOT PENN STATE!!! WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD? I WILL CORRECT THIS EVERYTIME. MY ENTIRE STUDENT LOAN BALANCE, PERSONAL SELF WORTH, AND CAREER ARE WRAPPED UP IN DISTINGUISHING MYSELF FROM PENN STATE!

Look, Penn is trying to say it is not Penn State... this year! Wait until Penn State has a great football team... then Penn dorks will be wearing Nittany Lion gear all fall!!! Penn L's are posers!

10:22: So true! Almost as good is when people mix up NYLS and NYU. NYU grads hate being reminded that most of the world could give a shit about the distinction.

Midwest Publics to T14!

Now Minnesota needs a SCOTUS clerk to go along with the one from Wisconsin.

What is with all the "Penn is not Penn State trolls"? WHARTON IS NOT PENN is next...

10:12 - Frighteningly insecure guys in my top-ranked lawschool used to take the bait from internet trolls all the time. It was no big deal.

10:12, 10:22, 10:23(1) & (2): winners of the Kim Jong Il award for "Most Insecure People Who By All Appearances Should Be Intelligent But Aren't"

Wow - Michigan State is really climbing the ranks! T10!!

go IOWA

It would be really helpful to drop Georgetown below 14 to get rid of the "T14" category once and for all. (And because G'town Law is SERIOUSLY overrated)

here's an idea, maybe the people responding to the trolls are also trolls.

wow, these comments are so meta

Wherever Georgetown is dropped that will be the new Gold standard, so might as well put them in the top 10.. so we can refer to the top ten...Switch Penn and G-town.

Go MSU/DCL!!!111 w00t!!111

Georgetown graduates about 5x as many "lawyers" each year as compared to Penn and still has less representation in the elite firms. Moreover, almost every Penn lawyer I work with is just as capable as any other top attorney at my firm.

Stop the hating and get back to your classes at Podunk U. School of Law.

11:01 - wouldn't that mean they were having conversations with themselves? That's not very fun.

This recent fascination with BU is insane, it is widely regarded in Boston and nationally as behind BC, but for some reason having to do with BC having a conservative dean, they've gotten slammed by USNWR. The rankings are dopey anyway and take into consideration all kinds of hokey crap such as % diversity on faculty, amount $ spent per student, student/faculty ratio, etc. that has no bearing on how competitive a school it is to get into to or how prestigious it is regarded by those in the profession.

The Penn-Penn State stuff is pretty funny. Penn State is a serious TTT.

This is obvious bullshit

IOWA.

Once again a good number of fine ladies rank my penis #1.

Stop hating on GULC. It's so unbecoming.

11:22 - your comment will make many law students in Philadelphia very, very angry. They love their Lions!

11:22, what's the difference between a serious TTT and a TTT? And how can a school ranked 91 be considered third tier?

"...And how can a school ranked 91 be considered third tier"

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Stop it, you're killing me. Stop it, I can't stop laughing. Stop it. Seriously, stop it.

Stop it with that BC junk. BU and BC go to the same New York job fair and the numbers are open for everyone to see. BU gets more intro interviews and callbacks from all of the top firms in New York. People outside of the east coast only know BC because it IS a conservative school. Its like a lesser Notre Dame. If anything that inflates its ranking.

Everyone knows that Northeastern is the best law school in Boston, because we have no grades, no law review, it costs $62,000 a year (a figure that gets raised at least $3000 each year), there's a rat infestation (literally - not a reference to the students), we have the smallest law library in the state, our course selection is tiny, our applicant pool has dropped 25% in three years, and absolutely no one can get a job. Wait, that didn't come out right... How have we not fallen to the third tier yet?

"BC because it IS a conservative school. Its like a lesser Notre Dame."

That is idiocy.

11:46 must have gone to UCONN or something. Don't be so proud - going to a law school outside of the T14 is nothing to write home about. They're all the same after 14.

lol at BC being conservative because the dean is religious.

lol at these ranking. ZOMG THERE ARE 1.2 MILLION VOLUMES IN THE LIBRARY (and how many have been opened in the past 3 yrs?)

lol at BU being better than BC. BC>BU in Boston and they are equal everywhere else.

Guys who use the term "TTT" and "T14" generally have moustaches and pee sitting down.

Ha, idiocy? Well apparently the big firms in new york and usnews agree with me... so I'm sorry if your personal opinion of what is idiocy or not is irrelevant to me.

Midwest Public = MN, IA, WI, IL. No difference other than the specific firms who use them as feeder schools and Wisconsin means no Wisconsin bar. That's it.*

*Unless you happen to be from one of the states in question, in which case there is an enormous financial difference if you don't qualify for in-state or reciprocity.

11:55 and 12:05 - BC students/alumni living out their hopes through ATL comments.

11:46, 11:55 and 12:05 play poker on Sundays.

12:14 - Wisc. is objectively a better law school than the rest you listed. And, truth be told, I didn't even know there was a law school at BU. I just assumed all people who went to law school in Boston went to H or BC. And now someone tells me that there's a Northeasten and Suffolk in Boston as well. Unbelievable.

12:35: you're a not-very-subtle BC troll. hth.

as to the other BC trolls: BU has a higher average LSAT and a higher average GPA. res ipsa loquitur.

Sour grapes from the BC people. BU and BC are generally closely regarded, but BU is clearly doing a better job right now recruiting and producing top students, as well as placing them in top spots. Any confusion just comes from the fact that BC's undergraduate is ranked higher than BU's (as is BC's basketball team), both irrelevant of course.

12:35 - I didn't go to BC, nor do I know anyone from BC. Other than Doug Flutie, I could care less about BC. I'm stating a fact. I didn't know that there were so many law schools in Boston. I asked a coworker and he confirmed that there is a "law school" at BU, but that it consists solely of a 6-story building or something like that. He also said that Howard Zinn is a BU prof, which is news to me.

Okay 1:14, just to clear this up for everyone... it is a fact that you an idiot and that you have nothing relevant to say on the BC vs. BU discussion.

Six stories? Our law tower is the tallest, albeit ugliest, law school in the county. And that's a fact!

It's true, that building is a crime against humanity.

are things really that bad at your school? I actually know a student there who enjoyed her time there, and is doing pretty well.
I have to say, I am pretty jealous of the no grades policy!

1:19: but did you go the brown bag dean's meeting last week? it was a meeting with the two architects that are totally redoing the BU law tower. it's going to be a massive project.

i just hope you're not a 3L like me so you can appreciate the changes...

1:14: i am still thoroughly convinced that you are a BC troll. nobody else would care enough to pay attention to the BU / BC debate.

I am indeed a 3L. We probably know each other! COOL!

1:17 and 1:24 - I don't care about the debate. I went to law school in the south, so I know precious little about Boston. Have fun debating the merits of BC vs. BU. So far, it's been an education.

12:08: I'm from Boston and can tell you that most B.C. law students elect to stay in Boston and, thus, their absence from BIGLAW firms in NYC says nothing about whether the school has a better reputation than B.U. The true test is whether Boston firms regard B.C. more highly than they regard B.U. Reputation is a slippery thing, but my sense is that Boston firms and Bostonians generally regard B.C. a bit more highly than they regard B.U. - even more so with respect to their undergraduate schools. Whether that's justified or not, I don't know, but when I was applying to law schools it was pretty much understood that I had a better shot of getting into B.U. than I did getting into B.C. (didn't end up applying to either)

Perhaps the reason more BC students "choose" to stay in Boston is because they don't have very good prospects in NYC. Regardless, I can't imagine BC does any better than BU in the Boston market (the law market, not the chicken restaurant) considering some of the jokesters from BU who are going to the "top three" in Boston.

BC is a serious TTT.

People using the word TTT are unaccomplished attorneys who lucked out on the LSAT and review documents all day.

1:44: 1:40 here. I'm from Boston and prefer NYC. NYC's a great city. Lots and lots of perfectly reasonable people prefer Boston, though - because their families are from there, because it's a more manageable city, whatever. I know plenty of Bostonians who would never move to NYC.

My sense, also, is that there are a lot of students from New England/Boston at B.C. and more students at B.U. from New York.

This debate about BC and BU is wicked funny!!!

"but when I was applying to law schools it was pretty much understood that I had a better shot of getting into B.U. than I did getting into B.C."

this is curious, seeing as how BU has a higher average LSAT and GPA. perhaps the assumption was that BC puts more weight on soft factors?

Dude who didn't know Zinn is affiliated with BU is an ignorant cuss.

To the BU and BC proponents: Your advocacy skills are a bit rusty. Should have gone to Penn State...

He's right about G-town being way overrated

That memo is absolute fiction.

lolz @ boston market

12:03- No need for an attitude about UConn, my friend. I know plenty of people who went there and they'll probably work alongside you some day. Except they won't be up to their ears in debt like you are, sucka!!

12:03- No need for an attitude about UConn, my friend. I know plenty of people who went there and they'll probably work alongside you some day. Except they won't be up to their ears in debt like you are, sucka!!

Those who say Gtown is way overrated are probably those who tried to crack the top 14 but failed miserably.

There are tons of Georgetown and BU graduates among the ranks of contract attorneys.

D.Lat - it's sneak PEEK. Come on now.

I know a great deal of students at BU Law who chose to come here over Georgetown.

BU Law School doesn't even have a fucking campus, it had a ghetto ass broken tower and you get to fight for space on the T with 8 billion undergrads and sox fans.

BU undergrad is for rich kids who cant get into BC and the law school is basically the same.

You'll have plenty of time to enjoy that nice campus when you don't have a job.

As far as the BU vs. BC debate, BU is clearly the more well regarded institution both in Boston and across the country. Look at any "objective" criteria (LSAT, GPA, undergrad feeder schools, bar passage rates, employment rates, etc.) and you will find that BU is superior. Moreover, look beyond USNews, both Leiter and Princeton Review rank BU #1 in the country for best faculty. Princeton also ranks BU #5 for best classroom experience and #6 for best career prospects.

BC does not have any accolades that even begin to compare with BU.

Perhaps if you want to continue this debate you should actually support your position with a scintilla of evidence.

Also... average starting salary out of BU is 20G higher than out of BC. Then again, maybe more people from BC "choose" small and mid-sized firms that don't pay market.

BU LSAT 75% 166

GULC LSAT 25% 167

A great deal chose BU over GULC? LOL.

Wait, I want to start another esoteric p*ssing contest. OK, how about the merits of American vs. Catholic. Or wait, LSU vs. Tulane. Yet another, Loyola Chi vs. DePaul.

"BU gets more intro interviews and callbacks from all of the top firms in New York."

Hmm... anyone have any ideas why (assuming it to be true), THAT may be? Hint, let's think for a second on the demographics of the NYC legal community... Anyone want to spot the pink elephant?

When I was applying to law schools, BC was an iffy proposition and BU was in my safety group for whatever that's worth to this debate. As far as I know it was generally regarded as being better or more difficult to get into. Can't speak for how many articles their faculty publish (on fascinating topics I'm sure as all such scholarly publications), or if they have the highest regarded Inuit professor in the country...

12:35 re: Midwest publics

Those four are weird, in that US News loves to rank Wisconsin last among them, but regionally it's probably considered first, and high grades from WI are certainly far more impressive than from any of the others because of the ruthless enforced curve. They are literally a half-step harder, and 90% of that is because Wisconsin is the last remaining state with diploma privilege. If you go to Marquette (T2 Jesuit in Milwaukee) or Wisconsin and you get good enough grades in the required courses, you've got a law license and that's the end of that.

So they need to be able to give people bad grades.

All of the four get dinged somewhat because they have to accept somewhat marginal LSAT-wise applicants from the state university system (unless you are Illinois and ruthlessly cut and screen your incoming class size to pretend you are T14) when they could easily raise their average admit by a couple points otherwise, but the upper echelon out of any of them are extremely formidable, and generally bust their asses.

No Mike, that doesn't add anything to the debate. Wash U. St. Louis was in my "safety" group, and BC was in my "I'd rather not go to law school" group, does that make BU better? I mean I think its better, that's why I chose BU... but that's just my personal opinion.

6:56: Oh, dear. You're going to hear it now.

6:56 - oh man, that's a can of religiously sensitive worms you just opened up.

MW Public T1 = Mich, Minn, Iowa, IL, Oh State, Wisconsin, Indiana

GO BUCKS!!!

Well he's right about GW being better than Georgetown!

The fact that BU undergrad is average with an ugly law tower, and yet year after year it draws students and faculty of a higher caliber than BC, should speak to the quality of BU law. BC law rides on the BC undergrad/sports brand. BU law overcomes a poor undergrad brand to achieve superior ranking and reputation. I'm not even sure why people are debating which of the two is the better law school.