The U.S. News Rankings: Law Schools Lose Their S**t React
As we reported earlier this week, the latest U.S. News & World Report law school rankings are out. And some schools are flipping out over their falling rankings. A tipster at the University of Iowa College of Law writes:
[B]elow is an email the Iowa law students received yesterday from Dean Jones about the new US News & World Report rankings. Apparently our dean is setting up small group meetings with the students. No faculty. No other administration. Methinks this may be somewhat of a divide and conquer strategy. These meetings may be in part a result of the newly formed Facebook group “Stop the Bleeding at Iowa Law.”My favorite part, though, is that the “faculty” have dubbed their concern about the rankings “Project Apollo.” Well, if they’re not going to do anything about it, at least they can come up with a secret, clever code name, so it looks in hindsight like they’ve been planning D-Day part 2. Bravo profs and administration, you’ve really impressed me this time.
Dean Jones’s email appears after the jump. Meanwhile, a source at University at Buffalo Law School reports:
For the return on investment — a Biglaw job for $13k a year in tuition (for the top of the class) — many students were OK with the shortcomings of this law school. [But] with T3 looking over our shoulder, some fellow students are contemplating jumping ship….It’s hard to justify leaving for debt-ridden T25 greener pastures when L. Rev. and a market-paying job in the City are likely. No one likes to be on the Titanic, though.
The message sent to the Buffalo student body by interim dean Makau Mutua, after the jump.
Update (10:50 AM): Add the University of Minnesota Law School to the list of institutions whose deans are sending out school-wide emails about their declining rankings:
Students at the University of Minnesota Law School received this email today from the two interim co-deans. It’s pretty hilarious that they try to claim we are still a top 20 school even though we are now ranked #22. It’s particularly amusing that they have decided to “address the particular factors that caused a decline this year.”
The email from the school’s two interim co-deans, after the jump.
Update (11:10 AM): From a source at UNC School of Law:
Since you’re posting panicked USN&WR reactions, add this one to your list. You know it’s bad when you have to respond in Latin.
Dean Boger’s email, after the jump.
UNIVERSITY OF IOWA COLLEGE OF LAW — EMAIL TO STUDENT BODY FROM DEAN CAROLYN JONES
From: Dean Carolyn Jones
Date: March 28, 2008
Re: US News Rankings
The US News and World Report law school rankings for this spring show that our ranking is 27 (down from 24 last year). Some members of law school community have expressed anxiety about that change. Given the publicity that surrounds the rankings, I understand and respect your concern. There is some information on this subject that you might not be aware of, and that I think you’ll find relevant and reassuring. I’ll refer briefly to some of it here, but I believe a face-to-face conversation would be especially helpful. At the end of this memo you’ll find information about scheduling a time to get together.
Please be assured that the law school administration has not been asleep at the switch on this issue. Indeed, we have been studying the US News rankings at a very high level over the past year. Hundreds of hours of sophisticated thought by alumni, faculty and staff have gone into this project, informally dubbed the Apollo Project. We have been considering ways of bringing new resources to the law school that will enhance our rankings and – more importantly – substantively strengthen the institution. The Iowa Law School Foundation Board has already taken important steps in this direction, and it will take additional ones at its meeting this weekend. I will provide more information when we meet.
As you may know, the U.S. News rankings themselves have been the subject of rather intense study. Without ignoring their obvious importance, it’s also essential to understand something about how they work – and don’t work. I may be able to share some information with you on that subject as well, but in the meantime, you might find it useful to look at Theodore Seto’s article, Understanding the US News Law School Rankings, 60 S.M.U. L. Rev. 493 (2007). It is thought-provoking, thorough and extremely helpful in understanding how the rankings work.
Like you, I care very much about this school. It is my alma mater. I have very high ambitions for the College of Law, its students, faculty, staff and alumni. My aim is to continue our strong traditions and to improve this school in ways that assure this is a top notch educational and professional experience. At the core of that project for the coming years is more student financial aid and strong support for our faculty in their teaching, research and service missions.
Times for discussion groups are listed below. I hope that you will sign up for a session in the Dean’s office. This is a College of Law with a wonderful and respected faculty, outstanding students and a dedicated staff. We do have a challenge, but it is one we can meet constructively and positively. That process is well-underway.
Meeting times - please sign up at the reception area in 280 Boyd Law Building:
. Tues, April 1 from 11-12
. Tues, April 1 from 4-5
. Wed, April 2 from 11-12
. Mon, April 7 from 9-10
. Tues, April 8 from 8-9
. Wed, April 9 from 3-4
. Thurs, April 10 from 1-2
. Fri, April 11 from 9-10
. Fri, April 11 from 4-5
UNIVERSITY OF BUFFALO LAW SCHOOL — STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK — EMAIL TO STUDENT BODY FROM INTERIM DEAN MAKAU MUTUA
Our Dear Students:
As you may be aware, U.S. News & World Report will issue its 2008 ranking of law schools tomorrow. Unfortunately, our ranking has dropped from 77 to 100. You are the future of this Law School, and I want to assure you that we will do everything in our power to rectify this situation as quickly as possible, and move this School forward beyond our previous position. My goal is to get this law school into the top 50. We are carrying out an aggressive internal planning process to raise funds, attract star faculty, recruit a stellar class, raise our LSAT, and produce good scholarship—all important factors in how we will rank next year. In addition, we are reaching out to our employer partners and prominent alumni, all of whom remain confident in the quality of our legal education. We know that this is unsettling news for each of you. Please know that the value of your education is of the utmost concern to this administration and faculty.
Makau Mutua, Interim Dean
SUNY Distinguished Professor and
Floyd H. and Hilda L. Hurst Faculty Scholar
UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA LAW SCHOOL — EMAIL TO STUDENT BODY FROM INTERIM CO-DEANS FRED MORRISON AND GUY CHARLES
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:06:38 -0500
From: Law Deans
Subject: [ALLLAWSCHOOL] UW News Rankings
To: [All Law School]
Dear Faculty, Staff and Students:
Some local newspapers reported this morning that the current U.S. News
Rankings show us in a tie for 22nd place. Many law schools are closely
ranked and a slight shortfall in any one of the technical categories can
lead to a shift of one or two places, as happened this year. The U.S. News
ranking is a combination of many factors (e.g., reputation among other
legal educators and practitioners, LSAT scores of the entering class, what
percentage of applicants we accept, how many books are in the library,
etc.). We plan to address the particular factors that have caused a decline
this year.
One key factor is our reputation among the leaders of other law schools. On
that measure we remain in the Top 20. We expect to build on this academic
reputation, and to address the technical factors that have caused a slight
decline. We also believe that the arrival of a permanent dean - Dean
Wippman - this summer will also help in bolstering our rankings.
Dean Wippman is committed to maintaining and improving the quality of the
school. We look forward to working with him to address this question.
Fred Morrison and Guy Charles
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL — SCHOOL OF LAW — EMAIL TO STUDENT BODY FROM DEAN JOHN CHARLES “JACK” BOGER
From: Jack Boger
Date: Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:29 PM
Subject: US News Rankings: 2009/ Carolina Law
To: Law Students
March 27, 2008
Dear Carolina Law Students,
Tomorrow, March 28th, the US News & World Report will officially release its 2009 ranking of law schools. Because those numbers have been widely reported during the past 24 hours on websites throughout the nation, we are sharing them with you today, after the close of business. The results for Carolina Law are mixed; we slipped slightly from 36th to 38th overall. The data nonetheless show big positive developments since last year — our student/faculty ratio has improved dramatically, from 20.1/1 to 15.7./1; the GPAs of our 2007 entering class are up from 3.39-3.77 (25th and 75th percentiles) to 3.45-3.80; and first-time North Carolina bar passage rates for our May, 2006 graduates are up from to 83.4% to 86.5%. Moreover, we have significantly more resources per student (thanks to the University, the North Carolina General Assembly, and our generous alumni). We have also retained the outstanding scholarly reputational ranking we’ve long held among other scholars and academics (still 17th in the nation) and among lawyers and judges (still 19th in the nation).
I fully appreciate that rankings do matter to many, including students. Let me assure you that we at Carolina Law will be working every single day during this coming year to strengthen our already excellent faculty, to augment the quality and usefulness of our students’ preparation for law practice, and to deepen the assistance we afford each student throughout the academic year and upon graduation.
We will further enlarge the size of our faculty with wonderful new hires. We will continue to attract extraordinarily talented students from North Carolina and throughout the nation. And once our students arrive in Chapel Hill, they will continue do inspired work — in their classes, in 55 student organizations, in five law reviews and journals, in nationally competitive moot court teams, in splendid lectures and conferences, and in selfless public service activities. We now have a special new source of focus and energy: the University’s commitment to build a splendid new law building at Carolina North in the near future, which will reflect the finest in 21st century legal training and community outreach. In sum, there is much of which to be proud.
So how then can we have lost a little ground? Most obvious are US News’ reported figures for “employed 9 months after graduation,” which at 88.8% seem lower than many of our peers. Yet this year’s US News relies on figures for our May, 2006 graduates that are now nearly two years old. During the ensuing two years, Carolina Law has undertaken a major, yearlong study and subsequent reorganization of our Career Services Office. We have made the outstanding hire of Brian Lewis as Assistant Dean. We have increased the CSO professional staff from 2 to 6. Alas, these tremendous changes are not reflected in the new US News data, nor is the placement rate for the most recent, May, 2007 class (which is 93.3%). Thus Carolina Law finds itself judged by a metric that reflects the CSO office of two years ago, before our new CSO leadership, our much improved staffing, and our much clearer mission.
According to US News, Carolina Law also appears to have slipped ever so slightly in our raw reputational score among lawyers and judges. Yet a ‘3.8’ score still places us 19th in the nation, exactly where we stood last year. Indeed, earlier this week, we were heartened when another national survey conducted among 100+ law firms ranked Carolina Law graduates 23rd among all law schools in their knowledge of law, level of skills, and readiness for law practice.
Finally, although we met the US News deadline of October for reporting our total finances per student, that deadline came just BEFORE we actually received a generous and crucial $2 million appropriation in recurring State funds from the North Carolina General Assembly — new funds that are already having a major, positive impact on student and faculty programs.
North Carolina’s state motto, as many of you know, is Esse Quam Videre, to be rather than to seem. We know in our hearts and we experience every day how outstanding and perfectly wonderful this venerable public university law school is. (That’s precisely what the ABA site inspection team assured us after their four-day visit in February). We’d very much hope in the future not only to be outstanding (as we are), but also to SEEM so to everyone who glances in our direction. Regrettably, US News has still not fully captured either our present worth or our future trajectory. We will work hard to assure that our ‘being’ and our ‘seeming’ will soon coincide. Best wishes to all.
Jack Boger
John Charles Boger
Dean and Wade Edwards Distinguished Professor of Law
School of Law, CB# 3380, University of North Carolina
Law School Rankings: Top 100 Law Schools (PDF) [U.S. News. & World Report]
Earlier: Please Do Not Wet Yourself With Excitement: The 2009 U.S. News Law School Rankings
(584) Comments
Comments
FIRE LEVMORE (CHICAGO)
FIRE DEAN LEVMORE *(FIRST AT 10:39)
"is 27 (down from 24 last year)"
Gee, you'd think it was the end of the world.
I don't think it says much for the fortitude of the Iowa law community that they felt they had to "express their anxiety" about dropping three places in the US News. In fact, I think it says they are a bunch of babies. Where's the Midwestern resilience and grit, I ask? Where?
Your law degrees will all be worthless under Shariah Law!
ALLAHU AKBAR
Obama 08
How funny is it that law students bang down the Dean's door to discuss a 3 spot drop in the rankings, but are largely indifferent towards meetings about matters that effect the actual education they receive (e.g.curriculum, budgeting).
That really sucks for Iowa. I graduated from the law school in 2004. When I started in 2001, the law school was tied for 18th place.
10:41 - That's the difference between T25 and non-T25.... A fall from 11 to 14, or 31 to 34, wouldn't matter as much.
What a joke....I've never heard of a serious law school even acknowledge the rankings.....let alone freak out over a 3-point drop. Obviously they don't understand how USNWR works (e.g. the ridiculous fluctuations, the lack of respect they get in the real world, etc.
Univ. of Miami also plummeted. Any news from their dean? Friend who goes to school down there says the faculty could absolutely give a shit about the students, the ranking, or job placement. Im breathing a sigh of relief that my own school is staying in the top 50.
Mutua,
For the record, it is the rankings for 2009, revealed in 2008. Just for the record. Ok, maybe for more than just the record.
I never understood the high rating from Iowa. 27 sounds about right.
Same goes for Vandy.
How did Iowa even get to 27? Iowa's 75th percentile LSAT is only 163, which is the 25th percentile LSAT at Fordham.
If I went to Iowa, but then decided to transfer b/c the school's ranking dropped, would I be able to get into UVA without being ridiculed?
It's so cool to see Nova law move to 65. I just accepted and can't wait to chill out on south beach after class and maybe cruise up to Ft. Lauderdale to check out the chicks on Spring Break.
They should drop another rank for naming their project, and 2 more ranks for calling it the Apollo Project.
GW and GeorgeTTTown Deans are in merger Talks.
Penn Law students rally behind their Big Ten Football team
NYU Dean basks in spotlight
Berkley Dean leads faculty in euphoric bukkake festival
Chicago's Levmore hangs self, returns to Harvard
Penn Law students will be freezing their ass off in Happy Valley for that high Ranking -- great football though!!!
PENN LAW TO TOP 5!!!
Is going from 77 to 100 the worst drop? I had no idea T2 world was so volatile.
Any news from the Penn State camp? In light of their relentless US News trolling and Joe Pa's slide into mediocrity, someone from admin must have thought fit to comment on this.
Chicago's Dean Levmore has started a new ranking projects called the "Snuff Film"... where he openly destroys the law school ranking through faculty losses, internet bans, obama support and libertarian values.
FIRE LEVMORE NOW
Rankings schmankings.
And will somebody get rid of the Obama hater's posts? This threat is starting to look like it belongs in xoxo.
Georgia State Law jumped up 20 spots. At this rate, it will be a Top 50 School (Top Tier) by next year.
Note to Minnesota deans: You are #23, not tied for #22. Notice how the school ranked two spots after yours is #25?
Allahu Akbar just means "god is great".
Why, then, do you keep on repeating it as to insinuate a negative connotation?
Here, Ill say it, Allahu Akbar! (Im christian)
Iowa has a pretty strong faculty, really. Herb Hovenkamp, author of the authoritative antitrust treatise, for example (Areeda & Hovenkamp -- note that Areeda's no longer with us).
Lat -- and other assorted Iowa haters -- I'm gunna bumrush you after gym class. Watch out.
Hey...why don't we implement a system where schools that drop loose their ABA Approved status...better yet, lets tie in prof salaries to how their students fare on the bar....or keep it the same where hacks who can't cut it in the real world get paid watch the backs of 100 lap tops. Rankings are a joke...if they are so important why don't schools adjust their tuition based on them.
And what's most amazing is that 99% of the anti-Obama inspired anti-Muslim crap on here IS COMING FROM HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTERS!!!!!!!!!!! Ah, Democrats.
10:53 - you don't want to know. do not google it at work.
Note to 10:55 - the fact that Minn doesn't have a number next to it means it is tied with the first number to appear above it. It is thus tied with Emory and Notre Dame for 22. Same goes for HLS and Stanford (tied for second). Here's a quarter, buy a clue.
Whats a bigot?
Do they go to UVA?
St.John's plummeted from from 70 to 88--any reverberations on the Queens campus? At least Buffalo is half the price of St. Johns.
i can't wait til hillary digs up more dirt on obama. rev. wright will deliver pennsylvania and ohio for the gop. we will retain iowa, new mexico, colorado, nevada, arizona, and west virginia. we may also pick up michigan, new hampshire, new jersey, oregon, washington, minnesota, and wisconsin.
Admiral Ackbar in '08!
Kudos to 10:49 - hilarious, particularly the "euphoric bukkake" bit.
project apollo? sounds like they had an austin powers-style brainstorming session. are "sharks with frikkin' lasers" involved?
Bigot:
a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. See http://mw4.m-w.com/dictionary/bigot. See. e.g. 10:42, 10:45, 10:58(2).
Why do these guys care? If you're not in the top 10, USNWR rank is irrelevant to you, since it has classed you as TTT.
If you care about what your law school is ranked, you will spend the rest of your life listening to dave matthew's records and shopping at abercrombie and fitch.
Can someone please explain to me what is the deal with Vandy? I know of no one who talks about wanting to go there, and I've met 0 Biglaw attorneys from there. If 6th Cir opinions are any reflection of the quality of Vandy's top grads, I don't see much talent there either. Is it a Southern thing? Enlighten me, Commodores.
Loyola's employed at graduation percentage is 66.6%. Not kidding.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/grad/law/items/03009
If I go to UVA, can I expect to be treated with some level of respect if I work for Biglaw?
What's with all the random UVA references today? Is this the new UPENN STATE?
Why aren't people talking about Nova Southeastern's crazy jump in the rankings to a tie for 65?!?!?!?!?!?
How about this: Go to the law school you can afford (or gives you a scholarship) work hard; get good grades; graduate; get paid.
Third Tier
No Debt
225k "walking around money."
Cheers!
Quit bashing my alma mater, the proud UVA Hokies from Blacksburg.
Seriously. Why are people ganging up on UVA?
I always that they had top notch students and faculty.
11:13 -- obviously you aren't too involved in biglaw, because there are many vandy lawyers in biglaw (covington, davis polk, skadden, hogan, williams & connolly are just some i know off the top of my head).
second, the top vandy grads don't go to the 6th circuit. they go to the 9th, 4th, DC, etc. look at that website that lists all the clerks and from what schools. vandy sends to the 6th circuit of course, but its top grads aren't there.
but you obviously know everyone. so i guess you're right.
27. Iowa 3.41-3.86 159-163
46. BYU 3.51-3.86 162-167
BYU has dropped 12 spots from two years ago (from 34). I'd be counting my blessings if I went to Iowa.
11:13 -- obviously you aren't too involved in biglaw, because there are many vandy lawyers in biglaw (covington, davis polk, skadden, hogan, williams & connolly are just some i know off the top of my head).
second, the top vandy grads don't go to the 6th circuit. they go to the 9th, 4th, DC, etc. look at that website that lists all the clerks and from what schools. vandy sends to the 6th circuit of course, but its top grads aren't there.
but you obviously know everyone. so i guess you're right.
What about the Dean of UPenn State or whatever that multicampus law school in Pennsylvania is called? Hs its dean explained its multiple rankings even though its only one school?
Isn't it interesting that none of the academics say, "We're going to do everything in our power to turn out better lawyers from our school?"
Why must it always be about raising money, renovating libraries, attracting big-name faculty members, and so-on? It would be refreshing if someone in the legal-academic community had the confidence to get up there and say that all that matters is the quality of lawyers their school produces. Who cares about U.S. News? Who cares about rankings? My own gut tells me if lawyers had any sense that they were doing something worthwhile, they wouldn't care much at all if their alma mater was ranked 75th or 100th....such statistics are only measuring sticks for the insecure.
11:22 - what website are you talking about? That would be useful info!
11:07, you clearly went to a TTT. Elite schools are classified as T14 for a reason. See, previous thread on USNWR. (And please, nobody call me out for using a signal - I know you're bored waiting for your layoff, but that's too easy.)
What the heck is a Hokie anyway? Sounds like the type of person who gets married to his sister. I didn't know UVA was in West Virginia.
What is the current USNWR ranking for UVA Tech law school and is it really IVY?
Many moons ago a man came from UVA with a promise -- a promise to provide the world with top tier lawyers ready to do cutting edge work for abercrombie and fitch
11:26, you clearly went to one of those schools that couldn't actually make the top 10.
Does anyone else find it strange that there's no "Tier 2" in the rankings? They go from Tier 1 - apparently comprising the first 100 schools - directly to Tier 3.
And hey, Nova Southeastern pseudo-jokester: your attempted jokes about a fourth-tier dump in Fort Slutterdale just ain't funny.
J. Smith (11:19): That's crazy talk!
I'm surprised the University of Penn State Law School hasn't issued a statement after public discovery of its true identity and secret campuses.
@10:46: nobody at Miami seems to care about the drop. The law school community is pretty insular, and I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of students think it's a T50 school.
That said, I don't think we'll be sitting fat for too long, considering Nova's epic jump. The S.Fla legal market is no longer our exclusive oyster, that's for sure.
Anyone notice that Cardozo has fallen out of the list of top IP programs? Has opinion finally caught up with reality?
I can't believe there are people who STILL do not know the difference between UPenn and Penn State. Geez! It doesn't take a Wharden grad to figure that out.
11:07/11:29,
Elite is elite is elite. This will never change. Whether certain schools are 7, 9 or 11 from year to year is inconsequential. "T14" is so-named b/c there is a certain cadre of schools that nobody can ever deny belong to "elite" status.
Sorry your LSAT/GPA/luck sucked.
“They took our land to build this road, and now we can’t even use it,” Mr. Abu Safia says bitterly, pointing to the highway with one hand as he drives with the other. “1. Israel says it is because of security. But it’s politics.”
The object of Mr. Abu Safia’s contempt — Highway 443, a major access road to Jerusalem — has taken on special significance in the grinding Israeli-Palestinian conflict. For the first time, the Supreme Court, albeit in an interim decision, has accepted the idea of separate roads for Palestinians in the occupied areas.
The Association for Civil Rights in Israel told the Supreme Court that what was happening on the highway could be the onset of legal apartheid in the West Bank — a charge that makes many Israelis recoil.
Built largely on private Palestinian land, the road was first challenged in the Supreme Court in the early 1980s when the justices, in a landmark ruling, permitted it to be built because the army said its primary function was to serve the local Palestinians, not Israeli commuters. . . This month, as some 40,000 Israeli cars — and almost no Palestinians — use it daily.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/world/middleeast/28road.html?ref=middleeast
I am currently enrolled in UVA Law. Please leave us out of whatever discussion you are having. We don't bother you with trite little remarks!!!
Why don't you 'all just grow up!!!
11:26
I won't call you out for using a signal, but I will call you out for misusing it. The 'see' doesn't get a comma after it; 'see, e.g.' does.
The only thing to be embarrassed about is falling into a new tier or out of the top 25. So Iowa, Fordham and UIUC should be upset, as should those shit schools that are now T2 or T3 (though there are 104 schools in the top 100 now, thanks to ties).
“They took our land to build this road, and now we can’t even use it,” Mr. Abu Safia says bitterly, pointing to the highway with one hand as he drives with the other. “1. Israel says it is because of security. But it’s politics.”
The object of Mr. Abu Safia’s contempt — Highway 443, a major access road to Jerusalem — has taken on special significance in the grinding Israeli-Palestinian conflict. For the first time, the Supreme Court, albeit in an interim decision, has accepted the idea of separate roads for Palestinians in the occupied areas.
The Association for Civil Rights in Israel told the Supreme Court that what was happening on the highway could be the onset of legal apartheid in the West Bank — a charge that makes many Israelis recoil.
Built largely on private Palestinian land, the road was first challenged in the Supreme Court in the early 1980s when the justices, in a landmark ruling, permitted it to be built because the army said its primary function was to serve the local Palestinians, not Israeli commuters. . . This month, as some 40,000 Israeli cars — and almost no Palestinians — use it daily.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/world/middleeast/28road.html?ref=middleeast
The paranoia about rankings is hilarious. Bottom line - by the 5th year of practice no one gives a crap where you went to school. I've met my fair share of T25 graduates that could not work as designated note takers for graduates of so called "lesser" law schools.
The same folks that freak out about rankings are the very folks that use their degrees as a means to fill some empty void in their lives. I see your kind every day in (insert random over priced eatery, golf club, weekend bar, etc.) with your sweatshirts....
The reality is: Its a piece of fancy paper that acts as a ticket to take the bar in most states...sorry. It may open some doors early in your career, but those doors will shut tighter than Chuck Norris' sphincter on Rikers Island if you don't produce quality work.
Speaking of work, I better get back to it. Maybe I can get out of the office early and catch my spouse banging her personal trainer with a High School equivalency certificate.
Go Blue!
11:35: "Elite is elite is elite." Profound. Good luck coasting through life.
I'm sick of hearing about Iowa. I hardly even know where Iowa is. Who cares.
To law school deans and adminsitrators: many years ago US News was short of revenue. Some bright young staffer (who probably had an MBA) came up with an idea for new revenue - let's start ranking things and use our nation-wide reach to become a niche industry. The rest is history.
Their tail is wagging your dog - exercise whatever professional courage you have and take a stand - all you are doing is contributing to the irrationality and misery of the law school process and putting money in their pockets.
11:19 are you serious? People are TTT schools have no debt? Rrrrrrrrrrrright. Even people on Law Rev. at TTT schools have debt.
More importantly, notice how Louisville Brandeis was ranked 69 in 2004, 97 in 2008 and has now dropped to 100 in 2009.
The drop coincides with Jack Cox's arrival at Louisville in the Admissions Dept and each year that he's at UL they keep dropping in rank....I wonder if he's being paid to sabotage the place. They are 1 spot away from being TTT. Pride comes before a fall. Enjoy the dropping value of your degree.
i meant, people at TTT schools have no debt??? maybe i should have gone to louisville.
If someone wants to piss on UVA, far be it from me to stop them. I have friends there and I don't think they would stop them either.
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Lat: Can you block irrelevant/weird/creepy political posts like this d-bag?
------------------------
Your law degrees will all be worthless under Shariah Law!
ALLAHU AKBAR
Obama 08
JT says the ABA needs to stop accrediting school after school after school.
What happened to the dean search at Buffalo -- they interviewed a bunch of candidates in December -- shouldn't they have announced a winner by now?
I second 11:48.
Iowa needs to take a page out of Northwestern's playbook. Simply employ all of your idiot students who don't get jobs after graduation. 100% graduation would help. It might also help to move out of Iowa.
The guy bashing UVa is the same guy from Gtown, GULCGULC, who was talking all that smack yesterday. He need to zip it before someone outs him.
This thread was initially about Iowa and Buffalo, yet no one from Buffalo has posted. Is the internet available up there or is it just too cold to type?
11:25 -- it's something like lawclerkaddict.blogspot.com (if you google "law clerk addict," it should come up.
11:43:
It should come as no surprise that your Louisville Law School has plummeted in the rankings since it hired a porn star to helm its Admissions Office. Without question, celebrity appointments to high-profile positions within a school's administration can be a real enrollment -booster, but Jack Cox? Come on. I mean, he was great in "Horny Paralegals IX," but pretige in smut doesn't always translate into competence in law school administration.
Congrats to Hofstra -- second tier, passes Buffalo, near St. Johns, and leaves NYLS and Pace in the dust.
GW = America
We love Fred!
Just a Thought:
You may be the dumbest person in the world. That is all.
Why should Iowa be penalized for following its public mandate and accepting students from in state with comparatively worse LSAT's?
Iowa is already penalized enough in real life for being 350 miles from the nearest big legal market.
Dear UCLA Students,
It's not me. It's you.
HofGuy--I second that--keep up the good work.
Iowa is being punished for voting for Huckabee.
11:25 -- it's something like lawclerkaddict.blogspot.com (if you google "law clerk addict," it should come up).
Maybe then people will stop bashing Detroit Law and give them a little respect.
Thats all I am saying.
And can we stop referring to urination in our posts. Please?
Do GW students not understand that many people would be furious if their school were ranked 20 this year?
At least these schools didn't drop from 3rd tier to 4th tier like mine
Divide and conquer is right. This whole effort is nothing more than a superficial attempt to placate students, get them to believe that the administration is doing something other than covering their own asses so that they can hold onto their jobs, and ultimately get an idea of which students are the apostates. It's amazing how patronizing that email is. Just more proof that the administration thinks that students are naive and stupid.
Oh, and it's not just three points that Iowa has dropped. A few years ago, Iowa was at 18. There are some deep seated structural problems for why this is happening, but I have no doubt that the administration will continue on their course of pushing their social agendas rather than preparing people for the profession and then have a avenue of connection with employers so that people who are serious about a legal career can obtain gainful employment. Crash and burn, baby, crash and burn.
To all you future law students check out these threads before making the decision to go to Iowa.
http://jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=5586
http://jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=7055
If 3rd tier = TTT, what's 4th?
11:36,
You're either 1) 10 seconds from getting your pink slip or 2) already laid off.
There is a fourth tier?
I'm a Buffalo alum. I had a good experience there and got a job at a large firm. It's the same now as it was then regardless of the rankings: a good school at a good price.
UVA PRE-SCREENS RESUMES FOR OCI UVA PRE-SCREENS RESUMES FOR OCIUVA PRE-SCREENS RESUMES FOR OCI UVA PRE-SCREENS
RESUMES FOR OCI
What does this even mean?
Yes, GW does understand that there are students that would be furious if their school was ranked 20.
Does 12:01 understand that there are about 160 law school that would have loved to have been ranked 20?
Does 12:01 understand that GW is happy to be back in the top 20 after last year's slip?
The GW trolling is more about having fun. Most of us are quite happy with our school and our peers and our post-Grad jobs. We have placement at almost every V100 firm except Wachtell (to my knowledge). We have a good social life. Our SBA makes sure we have law school social events, and we are able to enjoy life outside law school as well.
Would we like a higher ranking? Sure, who wouldn't. But we're please with where we are, and we expect to continue rising.
If not, so be it. Most of us are pretty pleased with our legal education.
GW = America
"UVA PRE-SCREENS
RESUMES FOR OCI
What does this even mean?"
You better find out, before foolishly accepting at UVA.
There's a steady trickle every year of Buff kids to the top NYC firms. Great faculty.
The GW trolling is not fun or funny.
Now the U. Penn St. provided some quality entertainment.
What ever happened to WGWAG and FRATSTUD? I kind of miss their useless posts.
And one of out own will be clerking at SCOTUS this year. So that is pretty cool too.
(And I know, some school get this every year...blah blah blah - it is cool!)
The GW trolling is not fun or funny.
Now the U. Penn St. trolling provided some quality entertainment.
What ever happened to WGWAG and FRATSTUD? I kind of miss their useless posts.
12:03
I didn't think so.....until today....
Divide and conquer is right. This is nothing more than a superficial attempt to placate students, get them to believe that the administration cares about anything other than covering their own rear-ends so that they can keep their jobs, and ultimately find out who the apostates are among the student ranks. It's amazing how patronizing that email is. Just more proof that the administration thinks that students are naive and stupid.
Oh, it's not just three points Iowa has dropped. A few years ago the school was ranked at 18. There are deep seated structural reasons for why this is happening, but I have no doubt that the adminitration will continue to push their social agenda at the expense of actually training people for the profession and then have viable avenues of employment for those who are serious about have a legal career.
Crash and burn, baby, crash and burn!
I did not realize that Buff Kids were trickling anywhere.
That is disgusting and vulgar.
Your philosophy is complicit - RISE UP.
11:41/YLS grad:
Thank you for your "coasting through life" advice. Coming from someone who doesn't actually get grades and just relies on the incestuous relationship his school has with BigLaw, your words are taken to heart.
GDubLove--Do you have a date for the 3L prom? Do you plan on staying out all night to see the sunrise?
11:43(2) and 11:45(1): TTT (and TTTT) schools give tuition scholarships to students that have high LSAT scores and GPAs, to encourage good students to enroll and not transfer. Thus, most top 5 grads from these schools have little or no debt from tuition, and have likely served on the law review editorial board etc. It may not be good enough for V5 firms, but definitely good enough for V50 (and guess what - we still get paid the same).
TTTT to 180!
11:13- Vandy is a great school, unless you are a total retard who believes that the only schools worth going to are "T10" or "T14." I know several people who went to Vandy and have great jobs, both at international firms and at in-house positions (where they make more $$ per hour than many of the prestige-whore douchebags that went to higher ranked schools). I suggest checking it out; the name travels well outside of Tennessee.
Law students in Buffalo aren't too cold to type; they are too drunk to type.
Wow. 10:55 is a complete and utter moron.
UVA to 130!
Wow this site has changed!
Last year's USNWR posting generated maybe 100 comments. More evidence that much of Lat's success really has been picking up the Law student block that used to post on xoxohth.
Wow, 12:09 -- Bitter much?
I just read that the daughter of Bob Morse (the US News ranking czar) just graduated from NYU law. Now I understand why NYU has been given an inexplicably high rating in recent years.
To 12:09...it's okay Dave just calm down and take a step back.
Bitter 12:09: I believe the phrase is "deep seeded" (as in a problem that, once planted, grows and matures into a larger problem - much like a weed) not "deep seated" (I have no idea what that would mean).
I've seen the way you've treated other thugs you been with, come on be my baby tonight.
I have got some "deep seeds" if anyone thinks its relevant.
God. Whoever sent Dean Jones' memo to ATL needs a cockpunch.
The T1 schools care just as much as everyone else. USC (and I'm sure other West Coast schools) hire marketing professionals to help boost their profile among East Coast lawyers and judges, who fill out the bulk of surveys used for the rankings. The rankings also guide scholarship and admissions decisions. It's all a big waste of time, really.
Lat - are you like the tobacco and alcohol companies, trying to hook kids on your product while they're still in school? The juvenilia reaches a high-water mark on threads like list. Are your advertisers clamoring for more hits? Too bad your "Battle of Vault vs. USNWR" didn't take off in a similar fashion. I bet we see it again, after you get the juices flowing.
By the way, for the Chicago students: Chicago is a great place, always has been, and continues to be under Levmore's deanship. The exodus of (some) senior faculty will turn out to be a blessing in disguise because it will create breathing space for a great young faculty. All schools reload from one generation to the next, Chicago is just ahead of the curve. So relax. You're in fine hands. And no, I went to HLS.
Dean Hines at 12:21:
It's not polite to "out" people on the ATL comments board.
I knew Dean Hines. You, Sir, are no Dean Hines.
George Mason cares about these rankings more than anyone.
Iowa may have only dropped 3 places, but there has been steady decline in the last 6 years...something like 9 places. That's a big deal for people who went because it was T25. Now it's tied with Fordham. I remember Fordham being the brunt of jokes...
Someone should file a RICO suit against US News. In Iowa.
Between all the Big Ten schools that got dinged this year in rankings (Indiana and Wisconsin behind Alabama and Georgia, WTF, people in those states can't even read) there has to be someone who can get a complaint into discovery.
Is it ok to out someone if they constantly say they are going to piss on my school?
Hey dipshite 12:21: it's "deap seated," not "deep seeded." It means deeply situated or firmly established. "Deep seeded," a term you seem to prefer for whatever reason, is more appropriate for describing radishes and the like.
The GW trolling is not fun or funny.
Now the U. Penn St. trolling provided some quality entertainment.
What ever happened to WGWAG and FRATSTUD? I kind of miss their useless posts.
Nitwit at 12:21:
Roget’s II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition. 1995.
deep-seated
ADJECTIVE: Firmly established by long standing: confirmed, deep-rooted, entrenched, hard-shell, ineradicable, ingrained, inveterate, irradicable, set1, settled. See CONTINUE.
I should have sold my Iowa stock last year. I'm going to short GW.
12:15, I agree. Obviously an Iowa grad.
You can either "bear the brunt" of a joke or "be the butt" of a joke. Mixing idioms yields nonsense.
USC is not T25, nor does it deserve to be.
Dear Flat:
Yes. It is ok to out someone if they are going to piss on your school. Especially if the person is gay.
Love,
Tornado Damage
12:28, people have been shorting GW for years. GW, a/k/a "Georgetown Waitlist."
Guys at my high school used to miss FRATSTUD and WGWAG all the time. It was no big deal.
You all are pathetic. We do not lower ourselves to such levels. YLS is again beyond reproach.
And NO, it is never good to out someone.
12:26 - GM does not care about the rankings any more than other schools do. They are just better at playing the game.
I actually found the Penn St. discussion informative. I knew they always had a Top 10 law school, I just had no idea they had another law school (or 4?) on a different campus as well.
Hey... everybody... Johnny chimpo is ACTUALLY an orangutan!!!!!!
Outed.
Hmm, doesn't US News threaten (and punish) schools for not complying with this clusterf*ck? I seem to recall they do.
Food for thought.
12:32:
Penn State knows how to play the game, too. Number 7? Wow!!
12:32 - did you know that Penn St. Philly's own JoPa went to Brown? Brown is a hated rival of Penn St. Philly b/c they're both in the Ivy League. Talk about no loyalty whatsofreakinever! If only Brown had a law school, the Penn St. Philly/Michigan rivalry would be mootish.
Just a thought 11:51 am: Iowa already started doing that, they gave a job to some 3L who couldn't find anything last year. She facebooks all day from what I hear.
Duke law students are a notoriously skittish bunch that tends to overreact to the slightest bit of bad news - I guess it comes from being excluded from the Ivies when applying to law school, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are some nervous breakdowns amongst Duke 1L and 2L's over Duke's drop to #12.
Duke alums sweat Greg Paulus.
Duke is a fantastic nothing of a school. I hold it in only a slightly higher regard than UVA.
As long as promoting equal opportunity remains one of Buff's main goals, it will always be handicapped vis-a-vis other institutions in the rankings.
Dear 12:36 --
Grow up. This isn't the proper forum for your little tirade.
Didn't Tom Ridge go to UPenn Law?
Jeez, I always love having gone to HLS when the rankings come out. Yeah, sure, we're tied for #2, but it could be worse - we were #3 when I decided to go there. And, pretty much, when you can say "I went to Harvard," no one really gives a damn what USNWR has to say about how prestigious your school is. Life is good.
Esse Quam Videre! - That's catchy. It should be turned into a fight song and all the unemployed UNC law grads can be "employed" playing it at basketball games.
☼ UNC Employed 9 Months After Graduation to 100%!
☼ UNC to T14!
☼ Charlotte to $200k!
12:42 -- Right on! I feel the same way about my decision to go to Seton Hall. "I went to Seton Hall." Life is good.
12:36 (1)- I think I know who you are referring to at Iowa, but I don't think you have any clue what you are talking about.
Hey 12:18, I can only imagine what your beef is with NYU. Perhaps you didn't get in? If you want anecdotal evidence that it is in fact better (or at least more selective) than Columbia, consider this: I was immediately accepted to Columbia but only got into NYU off the wait list, at the last minute. I went to NYU (thank god). Nobody likes a hater.
Charlotte to $65K.
UNC to... ABA Accredidation!!
Real law school rankings: http://lawclerkaddict2008.blogspot.com/2007/09/total-clerks-by-school.html
Boooooooorrrrrrrrrinnnnnnnngggg!!!!!
Can we just stop with the UVA bashing please?
Its not even funny (or relevant).
12:46 -- opposite happens more frequently.
Real law school rankings: http://lawclerkaddict2008.blogspot.com/2007/09/total-clerks-by-school.html
Whether Iowa is ranked 24th or 27th, the fact remains that every single applicant there should have retaken the LSAT and enrolled in a better school.
1) The email from Iowa's dean is somewhat disingenuous. Considering that Iowa's admissions strategy for the last 5 years has been to ignore measurables, I don't see how they could say with a straight face that they are working on keeping their rankings up. If you're not playing the game, then just admit it.
2) Everyone knew UIUC was overrated, so no surprise there.
3) I think there are 4 spots in the rankings that concern people. 1 - Any movement in or out of the T14 is noteworthy. 2 - Any movement in or out of the top 25 is noteworthy. 3 - Any movement in or out of the top 50 is noteworthy. 4 - Any movement in or out of the second tier (25-100) is noteworthy. If you're worrying about any movement inside of those categories, you're overreacting.
12:39 is right on. It seems that Buff had been trying to use diversity to carve itself a niche. Good idea since it will never compete with the top schools. But it may have done so at the expense of admissions criteria, which obviously is the wrong way to go about it. It should be entirely possible to increase diversity AND maintain admissions standards. It would just likely have to involve broader recruiting. Also, the last dean and some of the remaining administration have been useless.
I thought it then and I think it now - the annual rankings possess nominal significance and merely support notion that numbers can be manipulated. Current and future students, please exercise some brain cells and dig deeper into the methodology! For example, Assessment Score by Lawyers/Judges given .15 weight, but only @ 26% of those surveyed responded. Meanwhile, Median LSAT Scores given .125 weight and Median Undergrad GPA = .10
(and presumably % of info obtained for both stats much higher). Lastly, Library Resources given .0075 weight. Maybe it's just me but at this day and age, are total number of volumes/titles in a school's law library even relevant???
I quite enjoy Iowa. I enjoyed it more when I applied to #22.
The voluminous seminal article has a heavy hand in the river of meritocracy running below HLS.
I don't know why everybody bags on the library stats being a factor in the rankings. I go to a law school with a very large law library, and I think it's great that I can find just about anything I want when I go there. It's really been an plus.
UVA Pre-Screening:
Pre-screening means that despite UVA being an "elite" school it screws over its students like a TTT. At other elite schools, anyone who wants to interview with a firm is allowed to (the top even don't let their students put their GPA on their resume). At any other school of the same caliber, a person outside of the top 1/3 still has a fighting chance at the top firms if they can interview well in the OCI. But the same student at UVA will not even get a foot in the door because WLRK, Cravath, S&C, DPW, and STB will ding based only the resume and transcript.
UVA looks like a T14 treats its students like a TTT
At least Iowa grads' job prospects are nice. Someone has to do wheat futures deals. Cedar Rapids to 69k!!!
IOWA TO T26!!!!!!!
I think the library is pretty important. And the reference librarians are amazing. It is helpful to have that kind of collection. But it wasn't a reason for actually choosing to come to Iowa.
"Job prospects are nice?"
Are you serious? Have you even tried applying to a job outside the Midwest? Impossible.
"Job prospects are nice?"
Are you serious? Have you even tried applying to a job outside the Midwest? Impossible.
12:57 - it's also a plus to have Starbucks coffee brewed in the law school cafe but does that make it a better school?
these schools are pathetic to care that much about this silly magazine
12:59 --
I am guessing you don't know much about wheat futures, or Cedar Rapids.
12:54 - Equal Opportunity Program is a SUNY mandate, a political decision from the top, not an attempt by the administration to carve out a niche. The fact that it lowers the aggregate numbers is well accepted.
I'm at Iowa, and my job prospects are great. By that, I mean I and everyone I know have jobs. Most of them are BIGLAW.
Blog on, losers. My school (UC Davis) dropped 10 spots despite poaching a great con law scholar from Hastings (which went up several spots and has been engaged in a concerted effort to up its ranking), which proves the point that all this is meaningless. I could have gone to higher-ranked schools and chose not to because I didn't want to pay as much. [Nope - didn't get into Boalt, which costs about the same.] And guess what - I now put food on Stanford grads' tables. Brilliant!
12:58 - you have no clue what you're talking about. You're obviously trying to instigate something without knowing the relevant facts. I have my current job at a firm that, strictly speaking, would not have interviewed me with my grades due to pre-screeing. And yet, somehow I interviewed with them, and they offered me a job. How can that be? It's called a lottery system. So shut it. You don't know what you're talking about.
12:46
If you want some legitimate evidence of which is harder to get into see the acceptance rates
1:03,
What do you actually know about the EOP? (I'm not being an ass. Genuinely interested.) Because how is it that undergrad SUNYs have a very wide range of admissions standards. For example, SUNY Geneseo and Binghamton are actually quite competitive. If EOP is a strict mandate, how have these schools managed to maintain such high admissions criteria?
Iowa is a great school and the anxiety isn't just from dropping from #24 to #27, it's from dropping steadily from #18 to #27 over the past 6 years, I think the main reason is MONEY, rich private schools like Emory, Wash U, etc. have been pumping in lots of money to move up the US News ranks, and apparently it worked.
1:10 - What about Penn State Law's Carlisle and Philly campuses? One school, but the Carlisle campus has much more stringent admissions standards.
Iowa is a great school and the anxiety isn't just from dropping from #24 to #27, it's from dropping steadily from #18 to #27 over the past 6 years, I think the main reason is MONEY, rich private schools like Emory, Wash U, etc. have been pumping in lots of money to move up the US News ranks, and apparently it worked. Iowa suffers from its small town midwest location, if it was in a more prominent area then it would be top 15 easy.
1:15(2), you forgot about UPenn State's University Park location. Three campuses, one school, different admissions standards.
1:15 -- ya think?
Yes, yes, yes, you are right.
The Great Iowan Decline of the Early 21st Century can be traced directly to budget concerns. The faculty remains outstanding, the library second to none (read: one), the student body if freaking RIDICULOUSLY awesome. The problems have been budgetary over the last few years ... however, now there is another problem brewing in house.
So the INTERIM Buffalo dean is planning to move the school into the top 50. Does he plan to make this 50 point move between now and the end of July?
and yes, Herbert Hovenkamp at Iowa is the best Antitrust professor/scholar on the planet!!
1:15/1:16 -- You're right about Emory. 33 to 22 in a only a few years. Sweet.
I believe it was once written that all should be given the opportunity to urinate upon the hallowed grounds of UVA ... equal opportunity or OCI be damned!!!
UVA to 65!
Iowa could easily rebound in the rankings by opening a brand new second campus like UPENN did.
Why is pre-screening bad? Want a better job? Get better grades.
Once you get your foot in the door at a firm are you going to petition for random evaluations? We don't want those that do better work getting higher salaries or more opportunities, now do we?
Which school is now highly overranked and poised for a Buffalo-esque drop next year? My money is on Seton Hall.
Did you hear the news? There's a campus in my pants... and EVERYONE is learning!!!
Should we really be concerned that an army of wombats is poised to begin raping and pillaging the campus of Yale?
Dennis Lynch, Dean of the University of Miami School of Law, sent out a global e-mail today defending the quality of a UM "education" and attacking the methodology of U.S. News & World Report's ranking system. Little more can be expected of a law school that has seen its ranking plummet nearly 20 spots since 2005. Atop a faculty member's recent prostition scandal and a moronic student's embarassing behavior on national television (The People's Court), we can now add the looming prospect of becoming a third tier law school. Maybe admitting over 500 1Ls for the current academic year wasn't such a bright idea after all...
1:10 - Don't get me wrong, only a portion of seats are reserved for EOP, not the entire school. To qualify for EOP, you (your family) needs to have low income, you need to be a minority (poor whites need not apply), and you have to be underperforming (ineligible to get in "normally"). The third part should bother you.
If you qualify under EOP, Geneseo and Binghamton are obviously much easier to get in. Without EOP dragging things down, Geneseo and Binghamton admission numbers would be even higher. (Same for Buff of course) They don't post pro forma numbers though.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
They are dancing in the streets in Gulfport. STETSON ROCKS!
1:01: I agree that a library is important but not enough for ranking purposes. Honestly, was volume of your school's library a major factor in your decision? If anyone is interested, see below link to a 1998 report was commissioned by Association of American Law Schools. As evidenced by date of report, all this agita is ages-old, with no end in sight. What a scam by USN&W...
http://www.aals.org/reports/validity.html
Wow, today's GULC trolls have really taken up the UVA bashing, even more than normal. Inferiority complex much? That T14 distinction getting you down?
You never see Duke folks flipping out like you guys over not being T10. Is it because those recent Vault's rankings overvalued you even less than USNWR does?
If I was a wombat I would go to Stetson for the top notch curriculum and street savvy student politik.
let's be honest, Iowa. You are in the middle of corn fields. You have no right to be complaining that you dropped in the rankings. Going to Iowa to study law is like moving to Florida to learn how to play hockey.
Why is Georgetown not in the top 10, yet is ranked in the top 10 in 6 of the 10 specialty rankings? This list makes no sense.
Absolutely right. We here at Duke pride ourselves on having pride.
Poor people are annoying and smell.
1:01: I agree that a library is important but not enough for ranking purposes. Honestly, was volume of your school's library a major factor in your decision? If anyone is interested, see below link to a 1998 report was commissioned by Association of American Law Schools. As evidenced by date of report, all this agita is ages-old, with no end in sight. What a scam by USN&W...
http://www.aals.org/reports/validity.html
Wisconsin and Iowa refuse to alter their LSAT ranges or cut the size of their entering classes. Given the history of the schools that is not surprising. They pay for it, but that is just the way it is.
Illinois is the funny one because they *did* play the game.
Just did a search of some law firm sites to check this "steady trickle" theory of buffalo students to new york law firms. cravath, davis polk, cleary, and simpson have no buffalo associates. skadden has two (not located in nyc), weil has 3, and S & C has 3 (2 in new york). Is that a steady trickly?
Just did a search of some law firm sites to check this "steady trickle" theory of buffalo students to new york law firms. cravath, davis polk, cleary, and simpson have no buffalo associates. skadden has two (not located in nyc), weil has 3, and S & C has 3 (2 in new york). Is that a steady trickly?
FIU just dropped to the T4. This decline is surely embarrassing for a school that claims to be an up and coming institution. Maybe if the school wasn't obsessed with taking every bottom feeder URM, the rankings would go up.
Here we go with Stetson again. Let's review. Stetson = shit hole.
Deans need to send out a school-wide e-mail simply because their rank dropped a few spots? I mean seriously...
If I was a Wombat, I would, go to Iowa and rape the dean until he spoke Canadian with a French accent.
1:46--I think if you look at firms that are further down the Vault list you might find some of that trickle. But then again why would you waste your time doing that?
Any school that can't crack the top 50 should be immediately shut down.
i'm actually surprised that GMU Law hasn't put something out on the rankings yet given how freaking obsessed their administration and students are with them.
All the UVA kids i've ever met were very friendly and polite... i'm not really sure why everyone here is hating on them.
Are you all just having a really bad day?
Is a GMU, a large, flightless bird that likes to piss on UVA?
I am a Buffalo 3L and I saw this coming. Certain things happen when a school puts all its effort into "diversity". When diversity trumps academic standards the ship sinks. I dont think gangstas with tatoos who got 145 deserve to be given the green light in the name of diversity.
I am a Buffalo 3L and I saw this coming. Certain things happen when a school puts all its effort into "diversity". When diversity trumps academic standards the ship sinks. I dont think gangstas with tatoos who got 145 deserve to be given the green light in the name of diversity.
Buffalo tuition is 13 grand.... i am sorry you private law school folks are in 200 grand debt slaving away for 90 hours a week.
Law Specialty Rankings: Trial Advocacy
Ranked in 2008
1 Stetson University Gulfport, FL
Law Specialty Rankings: Legal Writing
Ranked in 2008
6 Stetson University Gulfport, FL
FYI, it's OGI at UVA.
1:51 - Funny guy. As a 2L, i've got a lot of time on my hands. The reason for this is that I have little to worry about these days since I go that I go to a law school that actually places people at the law firms I listed and am working at one of them this summer. I don't have to pretend that my school feeds students to top law firms, and don't need to hear any more bs about how buffalo actually does well in new york city. I'll take Albany instead, even with the tuition.
GO OSU!! GO BUCKS!!!
Diversity = stupid people
stupid people = Gangstas
Gangstas = Diversity
where is the mea culpa from Wisconsin? ...maybe they will just blog about it
Did William & Mary plummet this year? I'm not bashing and didn't go there, but I seem to remember it being at least 5 -8 spots higher than the #30 it is now. It also seems like W&L dropped some too.
I don't feel like taking the time to check previous years.
GO OSU!! GO BUCKS!!!
11:57
you must be retarded if you think iowa is 350 miles from a big legal market. chicago is only 220 miles...and it only takes slightly longer to drive to chicago from iowa than it does from UIUC.
for all you iowa haters...go on and hate, because while you are billing your 2500th hour, ill be banging your wife, and still counting the coin from my biglaw salary.
I would take a 3 pound burrito over UVA anyday of the week!
People hate so much on GULC that it makes one wonder if it's because they realize how kick-ass it is, and if it were given its due respect, would be consistently in the top 10, or even top 5.
The undergrad drags down the whole university b/c of how shitty the endowment is. We were told that the Law Ctr. was the only part of the university that made money.
That being said, the rankings for the T14 are what they are, and they'll be that way until white shoe law firms are populated by partners from lesser schools.
I would be willing to bet $$ that the person hating on UVa (GULCGULC) didn't get in. It's probably a good thing too, because he would have been an outcast there. People at UVa tend to be cool and nice. They tend not to like loser dbags.
How the UVA OCI process actually works:
--Students request interviews, most of which are accepted by the employer if you are somewhere in the ballpark gradeswise.
--If you don't initially get an interview with a firm you really want, you essentially bid for it. Each student has 20 points to use however they want for bidding. In practice, this guarantees you interviews with at least 4-6 more firms if you didn't get them at first. It also allows you to target exactly who you want to interview with most and make sure you get them (at other schools you can't do this).
The benefit of the system is less wasted interviews from mismatches where the employer has to talk to the student but would never hire because of grades. The employers love interviewing at UVA for this reason, and it leads to a higher rate of offers to interviews.
But if you think that 3.1 at Penn is really going to get you an offer at a V10 because you score so big in the interview they decide to forget your grades, good luck to you. You're wasting 20 minutes that you and the employer could both use better.
1:46-With that attitude I see a no offer in the cards for you after this summerOh and by the way I am a 2L in a T-4 school and might even be competing with you for an offer. I sure hope so--will be a piece of cake. It is just that I have a couple of friends at Buffalo and they do place at some of the NYC big law firms as long as you are in the top 10%.
Iowa law should only care how much $$ its lawyers generate for the state. It's funded by the state, and so it should try to do things that hurt it in these rankings. If it sends alum all over the country, that's fine, but unless they donate, it doesn't help the state much.
There's a difference between being 220 miles from a feeder market and 350 miles?
If you ain't got the ranking, you gotta have the location.
Hey Hofstra entered the top 100. Good for them. I wonder if applicants will be a bit more hesitant to take Saint John's Law over Hofstra.
Wait a minute, you mean to tell me that Iowa is still a state?
It's hysterical that Iowa's Dean felt the need to send this email and schedule NINE times to meet and discuss "The Apollo Project." Embarassing doesn't even begin to describe it. Dude, you are Iowa. Let me repeat that: IOWA! Just be glad you're even in the top 50.
(Oh, and 2:08, my wife wouldn't go anywhere near your small prick. And she's from Iowa.)
Wombats to 190
Why should Wisconsin issue a mea culpa? They have a SCOTUS clerk and are highly regarded by employers (see Vault rankings).
Losing one "point" on this BS and getting clubbed by ties should shame them...why?
The Penn/Penn State thing was amusing once, perhaps twice. It is now tired and stopped being remotely entertaining ages ago.
what's Miami ranked?
GW Law students love GW Law more than any other law students love their respective law schools. They're so happy and down to earth!
I bet if Iowa held a primary instead of a caucus its rating would have risen
Hey, 2:20 --
I dare you to come over here and say that.
82
2:19:
Yeah, Iowa is still a state. In college at Northwestern, we put together a petition to revoke its statehood and make it an agricultural colony. It lost by a narrow margin. What a crock!
here's one from Case Western's Dean:
Dear Students,
I suspect that there are few among you who have not heard yet about the recent US News rankings. Like you, I am disappointed at our dropping 11 places in the rankings, and I am eager to have the opportunity today to access the information as to how we fared in the particular categories that go into the overall rank. I want to emphasize now, however, that I am confident that we will address this problem effectively. We need to approach this as a problem to be solved, not as a catastrophe. We need to act decisively but not precipitously and to weigh with reasonable care the costs, as well as benefits, of possible solutions. I have a number of thoughts in mind, and I have already been discussing them with the faculty and deans as well as listening to their suggestions. I am having an open forum with the student body today at noon, and I welcome your comments and questions at that time and at any later time.
Sincerely,
Gary Simson
here's one from Case Western's Dean:
Dear Students,
I suspect that there are few among you who have not heard yet about the recent US News rankings. Like you, I am disappointed at our dropping 11 places in the rankings, and I am eager to have the opportunity today to access the information as to how we fared in the particular categories that go into the overall rank. I want to emphasize now, however, that I am confident that we will address this problem effectively. We need to approach this as a problem to be solved, not as a catastrophe. We need to act decisively but not precipitously and to weigh with reasonable care the costs, as well as benefits, of possible solutions. I have a number of thoughts in mind, and I have already been discussing them with the faculty and deans as well as listening to their suggestions. I am having an open forum with the student body today at noon, and I welcome your comments and questions at that time and at any later time.
Sincerely,
Gary Simson
What is the average starting salary of a Stetson grad (who gets a job)?
Doobie Dang!
GW Law students love GW Law more than any other law students love their respective law schools. They're so happy and down to earth!
Look at the exchange between 2:20 and 2:29. Then go to the Autoadmit site and click on a few random threads. Come back here and read the exchange b/w 2:20 and 2:29.
See much of a difference? I don't!
Yes, we got an e-mail from the co-deans about the drop from 20 to 22. I hadn't heard one word about the rankings until the e-mail, and still most people really don't give a shit. I can think of the one snarky bitch who would e-mail ATL with it though. Everyone hates her.
I hereby propose that Iowa's statehood be transferred to Puerto Rico, and that it be henceforth recognized as the neweset and most dangerous member of the axis of evil.
I hereby propose that Iowa's statehood be transferred to Puerto Rico, and that it be henceforth recognized as the neweset and most dangerous member of the axis of evil.
I don't care how good a school in Iowa or Minnesota or Indiana or Ohio or any of those states is. Who wants to live out there? Not this girl.
If you want to work in those states, fine. But if you don't then why didn't you just go to a school in the market you want to work in? Why live in Iowa for three years if you don't have to?
Puerto Ricans smell funny.
"12:59 --
I am guessing you don't know much about wheat futures, or Cedar Rapids."
You're right. I didn't go to Iowa. [pwnt]
Rankings mean so much.
Rankings validate my life.
Rankings make us free.
It is pretty obvious that schools that dropped are in panic mode. This shows that no matter what anyone says these rankings do matter-USNWR rules!
How can I tell if my school is good? Hopefully everyone pissing on it will stop temporarily so I can figure out my future.
My BIGLAW paycheck
spends the same. A diploma
is a diploma.
A Bumper Sticker:
My law school can beat you up,
and your crying child.
U of Miami:
Education? Que este?
No hablo ingles
Corn. Beef. Soybean Fields.
Jurisprudes of Tomorrow.
Rise, Hawks: The World Waits.
Is it me, or has UNC really lost the luster it had gained over the last few years?
Irrelevant state
schools. Why care for rankings when
you won't leave Des Moines?
Not according to Vault.
This whole discussion is one giant scheme by Lat to shill for Vault and push US News out of business.
I support this product and/or service.
U. S. News is right,
every person is ranked like
every grain of sand.
Iowa Law is
not in Des Moines. You need maps.
Iraq like such as.
Herbie Hancock = UVA grad and an awesome education
2:38: well said.
Actually, Herbie Hancock went to Grinnell.
In Iowa.
The problem with Iowa's ranking is obvious. Dean Jones has focused almost exclusively on diversity and this is why our LSAT profile is so low. Iowa has a great library but that's about it. If it continues on this path Iowa seems destined to rank in the low 30's. Schools like Illinois are already passing us and Alabama and Georgia are not far behind. I am afraid that Iowa is squandering its tradition of being one of the strongest public law schools. Calling this Project Appollo almost makes a mokery of students' concern that the value of our degrees is declining.
2:38 --
Because I'm on a full scholarship (at one of those schools), will graduate without any debt, and will be spending my BIGLAW paycheck on your mom.
Hey, Buffalo issued the diversity excuse first. Iowa people should find some other way to rationalize their school's decline.
Iowa grads don't
leave the state. Des Moines is in
Iowa. Tier Three.
Who the hell considers Alabama and Georgia top law schools?
Look at the reputation scores. Absolutely terrible.
"How the UVA OCI process actually works:
--Students request interviews, most of which are accepted by the employer if you are somewhere in the ballpark gradeswise.
--If you don't initially get an interview with a firm you really want, you essentially bid for it. Each student has 20 points to use however they want for bidding. In practice, this guarantees you interviews with at least 4-6 more firms if you didn't get them at first. It also allows you to target exactly who you want to interview with most and make sure you get them (at other schools you can't do this).
The benefit of the system is less wasted interviews from mismatches where the employer has to talk to the student but would never hire because of grades. The employers love interviewing at UVA for this reason, and it leads to a higher rate of offers to interviews."
I would only add that in addition to the lottery system, UVA students can make 'special requests' for a particular firm, and firms will often grant the interview. I'll be summering at a firm this summer that was a special request. The UVA OGI process works pretty well as far as I can tell; I felt it was very fair, and everyone I know felt the same way.
Iowa grads don't
leave the state. Des Moines is in
Iowa. Tier Three.
2:23 - you were never amusing.
Iowa grads do
leave the state. Don't believe me?
See the Vault rankings.
Nebraska doesn't
count. Go study your wheat fu-
tures. Boone to 9 grand.
Iowa = the UVA of Kansas
This thread reminds one that the only good thing about law students is that they have the potential to grow up and get over their insecurities. Go back to real topics Lat.
>>The problem with Iowa's ranking is obvious. Dean Jones has focused almost exclusively on diversity and this is why our LSAT profile is so low. Iowa has a great library but that's about it. If it continues on this path Iowa seems destined to rank in the low 30's. Schools like Illinois are already passing us and Alabama and Georgia are not far behind. I am afraid that Iowa is squandering its tradition of being one of the strongest public law schools. Calling this Project Appollo almost makes a mokery of students' concern that the value of our degrees is declining. <<
The same thing happened with Rutgers-Newark, a state school that used to have a very solid reputation. The administration started to focus on "diversity" and look what happened. Rutgers' reputation in the tri-state area has been irreparably damaged, and most firms no longer consider it a viable source of good quality future lawyers.
The University should really get rid of the administration at the law school. This "diversity" endeavor is doing nothing but destroying the school. What happened to Wetlaufer two years ago was a travesty. It was unbelievable that the administration caved into the childish demands of a collection of students who, in the final analysis, probably shouldn't have been there.
Cedar Rapids is a great legal community - better than Iowa City. Many Iowa City lawyers commute to Cedar Rapids. Partners at the 4-5 "large" law firms make between 150-300k, with a few making even more. Not bad when the average home costs 120k, the schools are first rate, the murder rate is zero, and you can visit Chicago, KC, StL, and Minneapolis within 4 hours on any weekend. Of course, some might prefer 150k debt, 3000/month for 500 sq. ft. apt in the Financial District (so they are close to Cadwalader's offices at One Financial), and bill 2800 hours in a sinking cesspool of a law firm in a busted practice area like capital markets. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Iowa. Great State!
Fields of sorghum and soybeans...
And crushed law school dreams.
Cadwalader = UVA of NYC
Is Iowa in the United States?
Iowa to statehood 2009!
Iowa City sounds nice, but if I'm going to go overseas I'd probably rather London. Maybe Tokyo.
3:21 --
That is exactly right about Wetlaufer. That was an embarrassment to the school and to academia. The students involved (one, in particular) should be ashamed of themselves.
Having said that : Diversity is an important goal, of course. I'm all for supporting a more diverse student body, and a more diverse faculty. But "diverse" does not equal "good". We at Iowa are losing ground... and it is clear that the diversity program is a key reason for that happening.
But that diversity problem is only one aspect of what is an overreaching problem: Iowa Law right now lacks the vision and leadership that it needs. Or, if it has it, the student body can't see it.
I don't know if Dean Jones is "responsible", or if it's just a simple coincidence that the decline has happened on her watch. Regardless, there are difficult problems that need fixed that are not being fixed. At some point, the College needs to stop throwing the metaphorical good money after bad. If Jones, et. al., have a master plan... they should probably let it out of the bag pretty quickly.
Iowa hasn't gotten so much attention since the caucus which was also over rated.
Appollo Project, my ass. Iowa, all you need to do is the following:
1. Actually teach the law and prepare people for the legal profession. Get rid of these people with their own social agendas who don't teach the material, and then give a test that has nothing to do with what went on in the classroom.
2. Make connections with employers so that students have viable career options.
3. Stop engaging in social engineering - coddling unprepared people with this BS "diversity" endeavor.
Iowa if you want to correct the educational and social inequities in this country, how about diverting some of the tuition money to the deplorable grade and high schools in this country that fail to prepare people for the next step. Your tack of admitting unprepared, unqualified students is analogous to putting a band-aid on a gun shot wound. It harms the school, the students who are prepared, the profession, and most importantly, and in the long run, the unprepared students themselves.
3:21 -- True. I know many older RU grads who openly talk with disgust about how their school isn't what it used to be, or how they went there "back when it was a good school." [Yeah, yeah, trolls, insert joke about how it was never good here.]
Appollo Project, my ass. Iowa, all you need to do is the following:
1. Actually teach the law and prepare people for the legal profession. Get rid of these people with their own social agendas who don't teach the material, and then give a test that has nothing to do with what went on in the classroom.
2. Make connections with employers so that students have viable career options.
3. Stop engaging in social engineering - coddling unprepared people with this BS "diversity" endeavor.
Iowa if you want to correct the educational and social inequities in this country, how about diverting some of the tuition money to the deplorable grade and high schools in this country that fail to prepare people for the next step. Your tack of admitting unprepared, unqualified students is analogous to putting a band-aid on a gun shot wound. It harms the school, the students who are prepared, the profession, and most importantly, and in the long run, the unprepared students themselves.
William and Mary didn't drop -- this year. It went up a couple spots. But your memory is correct. It is down over the last several years.
What did Obama get in his LSAT?
3:31 and 3:35--pretty amazing you both had the same post--but you both need to lighten up just a bit
Rutgers' reputation in the tri-state area has been irreparably damaged, and most firms no longer consider it a viable source of good quality future lawyers.
Rutgers deserves everything it is getting- its a socialist institution and a worthless law school. The "Con Law" clinic sees injustice everywhere and uses tax dollars to litigate such compelling issues as whether a municipality can limit the use of its parks to residents only or whether a restriction on door to door canvasing violates the constitution. Serious, they spend millions of tax dollars on this bullshit- Chen and Askin are socialist scumbags that should be stoned to death in the public square.
True Story:
It's 1812. The US is at war with Britain. The British raid Washington DC and burn the Whitehouse. Naturally the US government gets a little panicky. They call a diplomatic meeting with British generals. Seeking a permanent peace treaty, the United States offers Iowa (then a territory) to the British. The British say, "hell no." The US says, "Well then you can have it for a temporary cease-fire." The British reply, "NO!" The US begs, "Will you just take it then?" The British again refuse. Two years later the tide of the war turns. During negotiations of the Treaty of Ghent the US again failed to pawn Iowa of on the British. The war ended and Iowa was permanently entrenched as a part of the United States, despite the fact that it would always be compared to that uncle in every family that no one wants to talk to at the Christmas party and everyone just pretends isn't really a part of the family.
Project Apollo
Laughingstock of legal world
Well done, Dean Jones.
Project Apollo
Laughingstock of legal world
Well done, Dean Jones. TTT.
In response to 2:05, your initial impression is incorrect.
W&L is exactly the same as last year.
W&M appears to have gone up one spot.
NY Metro schools really got creamed:
Fordham dropped to 27
Cardozo to 55
Brooklyn to 63
St Johns to 88
At least Hofstra rose to 99 and CLS and Columbia merely flipped places.
No big city bias here
Buffalo sank 23 spots!!! Damn.
That is what happens when you take diversity over quality.
3:21 -- True. I know many older RU grads who openly talk with disgust about how their school isn't what it used to be, or how they went there "back when it was a good school." [Yeah, yeah, trolls, insert joke about how it was never good here.]
Why are people even talking about Iowa? Who cares about Iowa? Did their dean send an email to students asking them to comment on ATL to try and increase their ranking?
The real issues here are Chicago's dropping, Berkeley's miraculous rise, and why NYU is ranked ahead of either of them.
And for the student who mentioned BYU losing spots, you should be grateful. Your professors haven't been published since, no, wait, they've never been published.
There's nothing in Iowa exept a bunch of potato farmers.
4:04 --
A) You're a punk.
B) No, there was no e-mail re: ATL.
C) Most of the comments here are not from Iowa students.
D) Some of the posts here implying that they are from IA students are not from IA students.
E) Stop being a solipsistic wastrel.
We are talking about Iowa because the story is about Iowa. If it bothers you so much that Chicago, Boalt, and NYU aren't the subjects of this thread, perhaps you should go look at that epic thread from yesterday, where trolls like yourself posted ad nauseum about your respective overpriced, overrated schools.
This makes me realize why people hate lawyers so much. There are a bunch of elitist assholes in here.
A top-10 degree won't help you ten years from now when the world figures out what kind of people you are.
Alabama's Dean Randall deserves a raise
4:13 it sure will when you compare an asshole from a top 10 school to an asshole like you
ZZZING!!
If a wombat pisses on UVA and nobody is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?
Buffalo's problem is a failure to rank the students. Perhaps injecting some competitiveness would light a fire under the lower tier students who reflect poorly on the upper echelon of students.
Hey Iowa, at least you have the cornhuskers football team. Oh wait. What was their ranking last year?
Hey Iowa, at least you have the cornhuskers football team. Tom Osborne's back in control and I'm sure he'll get you back up in the rankings.
Hey Iowa, at least you have the cornhuskers football team. Tom Osborne's back in control and I'm sure he'll get you back up in the rankings.
At least Iowa is still ranked ahead of UPENN State's Dickinson campus.
Yes the wombats!!!! Best article ever! I feel that ATL has brought my world into perfect sync in the past two days! I was worried that my colleagues at Iowa would be too distraught to appreciate fully the true intricacies of the wombat article, but after I saw Dean Jones's e-mail I knew that they would be at ease to let the marsupial mischieviousness wash away any remaining pain the administrations terrible oversights have caused.
12:46 -- You're right that nobody likes a hater. Why are you hating on Columbia? I don't think the poster you were responding to is even a CLS student. More likely, it's probably a Boalt student.
So you went to live in the Village to pretend you're a cool hipster, and now you imagine that you're so much more laidback than everyone else. Congrats.
The Huskers are in Nebraska...
I think the UNC email is actually thoughtful and interesting. I was impressed with it. Sounds like they've got a good dean.
Based on overall score with only siginifiant differences counted rankings are:
Yale
Harvard, Stanford
Columbia
NYU
Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, NW, Mich,Va
Cornell, Duke
__________________________________
Gtown
Vandy, UCLA, Texas
SC, WU
GW, BU, Emory, Minn, ND
__________________________________
The rest
4:52--Interesting analysis---looks like the great divide might be now considered T-13
Everyone -
Please stop voicing your concerns about Iowa law, they are all true and they get me too mad to study. Normally this would be fine, but now that we are 27 I have to work that much harder to try to be taken seriously in the real world (where diversity doesn't give me the boost that Iowa did).
For those of you young enough for facebook, there is an interesting discussion in the group "Stop the bleeding at Iowa Law"
Let me join the froth of insanity! yee-hah!
1) NYU is a T6 imposter. Outside of the limited (but admittedly important) swath of 1-5 yr. out hiring for private/public interest in the NY state area, NYU does not hold the elite weight of Chicago or Columbia. It's position against Mich/UVA/Penn/Northwestern is arguable, but realize:
if NYU wasn't in NY, it would be another 'Georgetown'. You wouldn't say the same for Chicago or Columbia.
2) Penn's rank is an afterproduct of its bump last year. I know no one in the legal community (outside of a few zealous grads of the school) who would honestly look me in the eye and say 'pound for pound, a Penn student is superior to [Chicago / Columbia / NYU]. Sorry, this is a joke.
3) Still think Stanford is overhyped - Chicago or Columbia could each give the school a run for its money. It thrives on its enormous West Coast influence and the bona fides of the overall 'Stanford' institution
Real Legal World:
I.
a Yale
b Harvard
c Columbia (NY advantage only) / Stanford (west coast adv) / Chicago (midwest adv)
d NYU (barely)
II.
a Penn / Boalt / Mich (sad decline)
b UVA
III.
d Northwestern / Cornell / Duke
e Georgetown (higher in DC)
I think someone made a typo. The NC motto is: esse quam videri, unless they're just downplaying the importance of vision.
5:01 - yeah, because people were taking Iowa Law more seriously when they were at #24
you are out of the T-14....you are TTT
4:08 - I believe your thinking of Idaho. Iowa has corn, lots and lots of corn, and nothing else...oh, except a law school apparently.
5:07(2) - who said anything about being taken seriously before? You must have met Dean Jones somewhere in your tragic journey to the bottom of the ATL comments section.
5:06
Real Legal World is that if you do well at any of those schools you have a shot at virtually all national firms and many clerkships. The differences between these schools are completely overblown.
LET'S NOT LEAVE OUT THAT IOWA DECICDED TO LET IN THE FOOTBALL COACH'S DAUGHTER THIS YEAR!!!!!
I mean really? Admitting people b/c of who their father is? Yeah let's complain about our drop in rankings now...
2:20
who said your wife would go near my prick? it will be my prick that is going into your wife.
understand?
oh and btw, im not from Iowa...and your wife probably needs to get bent over since you probably spend more time blowing your partner than you do receiving any from your wife.
5:27
I absolutely agree. This is a baseline. Eventually, cream rises to the top. hardwork, effort, intelligence, american way, etc.
But the baseline is important. Especially for those first 5 years, the quality of one's education, and the initial access / opportunities.
take note: I'm no blue blood and I never drank the white shoe koolaid. But some of what they say is true, in my own experience.
5:06
12:36
Not cool. I know her well and she's doing a great job in helping solve this matter. She had another job w/ the gov't, so stop spreading false rumors.
PS. Dean Jones is a horrible rep. for Iowa. I can't take her seriously w/ the informal manner in which she speaks and the lisp.
I miss Dean Hines
5:39,
Uncalled for.
Hope Hofstra maintains the upward momentum... Grats to the new dean, Nora, keep up the good work.
LAT ... can we somehow put a filter on the uncalled for comments?
There's no reason why this thread should turn into a forum to toss insults.
Just a thought 11:51 am: Iowa already started doing that, they gave a job to some 3L who couldn't find anything last year. She facebooks all day from what I hear.
This is a fact, she gave my law school tour. By the way, Iowa's admission numbers are down because they are forced to accept a certain amount of in-state residents. Iowa's school system is garbage and therefore the in-state residents are more likely to have mediocre GPA/LSAT numbers
Dean Jones is absolutely the problem. Do you have confidence in her? Does she strike you as someone who can raise the millions of dollars the school needs? How has the school performed during her tenure? The hard part of all this is that she is a wonderful, kind, sincere person who has little to no inter-personal skills, and regardless of her rhetoric, she really thinks USN rankings are crap. So, even though she claims they're important, she isn't at all committed to doing what it takes to get the school where we need to be.
If we want to get back to top-20, we have to hold our fearless (and fearful) leader accountable: can Dean Jones.
hh
5:58,
Yeah. You're right.
5:41
I did not mean to be insulting and I apologize. Dean Jones is not very professional and in my opinion is a horrible representative for recruiting quality out of state students, networking to employ Iowa's grads, and raising funds.
Dean McGuire, on the other hand, is impressive and is a presence when you're in the same room as she is. Dean Jones, IMHO, is not. McGuire needs a promotion.
Iowa can embrace diversity all it wants but meanwhile Alabama and Georgia seem poised to displace Iowa and UNC in the rankings of public law schools. Iowa and UNC are starting to look like Kansas and South Carolina to me.
6:05:
McGuire? You've got to be joking.
What the law school needs is a clean sweep in the administrative ranks. This is a problem, however, as U of Iowa routinely mistreats intelligent, dynamic people, e.g., look what happened with David Skorton.
At the law school, while they have some very good people there, new people are unlikely to come there because of the intellectual stultifying environment. They have yet to find a quality replacement in criminal law since Bibas left. From outward appearances, they don't seem to care: they just keep "outsourcing" the "teaching" to adjuncts and lecturers.
6:20
Bibas? Are you joking?
The man who had to leave the US Attorney's office the year before he came to Iowa, hanging his head in shame after prosecuting an 80-something year old woman for allegedly stealing 7 dollars out of a cafeteria cash register? The laughing stock of NY attorneys? The man who failed more than one of his students the ONE semester he taught merely because they hadn't seen the movie "The Terminator" and therefore couldn't understand his Crim Law Final Exam? Surely you jest. Iowa is lucky he's gone.
Also, I'm not saying McGuire is some Goddess of a Dean. Just that she's more impressive than Jones. Particularly in the public speaking realm.
One problem at Iowa is that Dean Jones and the faculty are anti-rankings, anti-competition and anti-status. (Did I also mention that they are anti-white male?)
They seem content with Iowa being the best law school in Iowa, so long as the faculty and student body looks like a Rainbow Party convention. One of my professors, known to preach PC political venom from the lecturn, even mocked the rankings by referring to it as "Useless News and World Distort." The same professor said Iowa doesn't want to be unethical in manipulating the rankings like Illinois. Well, at least Illinois admits better students than my law school does. At least they try.
I am glad to hear that Dean Jones is holding NINE meetings, but that sounds like exactly what we don't need. More talk and discussion. How will that change the lack of passion among faculty and administration to make Iowa relevant? How will that fill the lack of ambition and the leadership void at this law school?
Don't get me wrong. She's a real nice lady, though a bit kindergartenesque as well as misguided in her values. With Dean Jones' as Dean, it won't be too long before Drake catches up with Iowa. Watch out for Drake. They have a better basketball team than Iowa and it won't be long before their law school gives Iowa a run too.
6:20
Pardon. A few mistakes in that story but he's still just as pathetic.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C00EEDE1431F935A35753C1A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
By a longshot Bibas is the best prof I've had at Penn. You guys must have some really great professors at Iowa, even if they are all Rainbow Party members!!! ;)
6:44
Indeed. Iowa's professors (at least when I went there) are amazing. I heard a couple of my favorites have jumped ship though (ex: Jean Love).
Bibas was a moron. Granted, it was his first teaching gig. Perhaps he's learned a few pointers now. Hopefully he's also purchased some new ties. How is his 24 year old wife whom he met on Match.com while at Iowa doing?
Seeing how I don't attend Iowa - see name - and my buddies were laughing about the comments they posted in this thread about Iowa, while acting as Iowa students, I think it is fair to say a number of these comments aren't from Iowa law students.
5:01 - really? if you honestly believe this, studying is the least of your concerns. all the biglaw shops and judges with whom i interviewed took me seriously. my guess is the problem is YOU. refocus your anxiety on something more useful, like cultivating a personality.
guys in my high school used to prefer practicing law in podunk towns to doing bet-the-company litigation at cadwalader all the time, it was no big deal
Iowa is a very special place. Those who attend Iowa know that first and foremost it is a nuturing environment which values multicultural exchanges designed to enhance the diversity of viewpoints. It prides itself on being nuturing over competitive. Dean Jones protects those values and I love her for it. Most of you posting about Iowa have no idea how special the law school is. Which is fine with me because I'd rather not have you as my classmates at Iowa.
7:05: Nurture my balls. I didn't go to Iowa so that I could join a "nurturing environment which values multicultural exchanges designed to enhance the diversity of viewpoints." Does that sentence even mean anything? It sounds like a bunch of affirmative action buzzwords that liberal profs use to intellectually masturbate. I can see it now...
Partner: "Its okay...Johnny Iowa Law totally f'd up on this brief...but he came from a nurturing cultural environment that values multicultural exchanges designed to enhance the diversity of viewpoints....so we won't can his ass for being incompetent."
Please. A reality check is needed for those that worship at the alter of "diversity" at the expense of everything else.
I vote for Adrien Wing as the next Dean Iowa. She would be certain to transform the place into a T14.
I vote for Adrien Wing as the next Dean Iowa. She would be certain to transform the place into a T14.
A spelling check is needed for 7:16.
i'm at iowa and i don't f* up my briefs. that sounds like a personal problem.
right on ia3l84. iowa rocks. if 7:16 and others don't like it here, feel free to transfer. no, seriously, i mean it. go. i can hardly hear myself think over the din of this douchebaggery.
5:06 bwaabhahahaha you are a chicago troll. welcome to the world of being on the decline. Thanks for playing.
As a non-URM I was deep into the bottom half of the class at OGI time and I did fine even with the prescreening. Did I get an interview with Cravath? No. Did I have twenty callbacks? No. Did I land a good 2L job. Yes.
I suspect that the loudest complaints about prescreening come from those who have NOTHING to offer besides their bad grades and their arrogant, entitled personalities.
If you're an admitted student considering UVA or a peer school, please don't let pre-screening fears sway your decision.
8:14: Maybe you need to work on your reading skills. I did not say that I needed help with my briefs. Maybe you need help with your life. That situation in the previous post is what we call a "hypothetical." Are you familiar with this term?
I never said that I don't like Iowa. There are good, smart people here. Some of the profs here are excellent. My only criticism is directed towards those who feel that the "progressives" can wave their diversity wands and make all of our problems go away.
8:43: i appreciate the advice. i probably do need help with life, but that's an entirely different topic. the premise of your hypothetical is that an iowa grad would write a brief poorly. i simply stated i need no help with mine. end of story.
i believe my reading skills are sufficient: "alter" is a verb. "altar" is the word you were attempting to employ. hence my suggestion that spellcheck would be a valuable tool for you.
your combative response to the prior person did not convey your appreciation for iowa's finer qualities. regardless, i don't care if you love or hate iowa. my point is merely that those who don't like it are free to transfer.
>>Bibas? Are you joking?
No, I'm not.
>>Iowa is lucky he's gone.
No, they're not.
>>(Did I also mention that they are anti-white male?)
Right on the nose, here. But what do you expect from lesbians? The admin. goes out of it's way to support and encourage lesbians, gays, and URMs to the detriment of white, heterosexual males.
>>Bibas was a moron.
Yeah, right. The guy graduated from the top of his class at Columbia, has undergraduate and master's degrees in law from Oxford, and a Yale JD. Yeah, he's a moron, alright.
Get real, pal!
Oh, and before I forget, he was also a clerk on the Supreme Court. Must be a real dimwit according to you, right?
>>They seem content with Iowa being the best law school in Iowa, so long as the faculty and student body looks like a Rainbow Party convention.
True. And they do this to the detriment of straight, white males.
>>I vote for Adrien Wing as the next Dean Iowa. She would be certain to transform the place into a T14.
You must be out of your mind. She's one of the reasons why the "diversity" mentality at that place has gone off the rails.
9:00: you're an idiot. the wing post was clearly sarcasm.
also, you're an idiot for saying that iowa's admissions policy harms straight, white males. i am thrilled at how these ATL comments have made iowa students look like ignorant, racist, mysogynistic idiots. way to perpetuate a stereotype. fuck it, now I'M going to transfer.
9:11 --
No kidding.
9:00 is angry. Hopefully he/she isn't really that clueless in real life.
You know... the 2L and 1L classes at iowa are a lot younger than the 3L class, and the class before. I've heard that many law schools are weighing prior work experience more heavily in the admissions process. Maybe, when you don't weigh that so heavily, you get a younger student body. When you get a younger student body, maybe you get posts like this on ATL.
Or, maybe not. What do I know?
8:31
grow up and get real
3LHawk,
I sincerely wish you the best of luck in legal services next year. You know, someone has to earn a pathetic paycheck off the interest from IOLTA accounts, and I'm glad it is you. I hope you nurture your clients, even if you do lose and are sued for malpractice. At least you will have the multiculturalism which you love so uh. You know, US News undoubtedly must mean nothing to you since the bottom 10% of your class had no hope of finding real work anyway. I look forward to seeing your disciplinary cases in Prof. Raymond's Prof. Responsibility text in 5 years.
5:33/go hawks -- Gee, sounds like I hit a nerve, huh? Well, anyway, I'm home and since you don't actually seem to be here banging my wife like you said you would, I guess I'll go upstairs and do it for the fifth time this week. Enjoy going out drinking, coming home and jerkng off. Later.
It's too bad that the vocal, disgruntled minority have to make such a bad impression on employers. I'm afraid that now multiple employers will associate Iowa with "whiny little brats." My hope is that they can see through most of the nonsense in these comments and judge Iowa students from first hand experiences. I can guarantee that 90+ percent of the student body is compromised of hard working, appreciative individuals.
crabby hawkeye: i apologize for all the subsequent posts. i suffer from "last word" syndrome, meaning that i can't just let it go.
the best part about our exchange is that i think i know who you are. and, if i'm correct, you actually DO need help with your briefs. but don't worry - the writing center is available to assist you with this matter. 8-5, M-F. check 'em out!
you clearly don't know who i am. otherwise you wouldn't make the erroneous assumption that i will be working for legal services next year.
i'm not an underachiever. i just don't like douchebags. sorry that you confused the two. now, do something useful: go to the gym and work out your aggression issues.
5:33/go hawks -- One more thing before I go upstairs to get laid... What I "understand" is that if, by your logic, my wife wouldn't be near your prick if it was going into her, it sounds like you should be the one blowing partners, as thanks for even being employed. This mature little exchange has been fun. Bye.
7:18 for funniest comment ever. Time to close the thread.
Who am I? (if you're so confident, then write my name)
or the initial of my last name.
Bibas was, far and away, the best professor I had at Iowa. The man is a genius.
absolutely not. as much as i enjoy giving you a hard time, i'm not going to be responsible for your future employers pulling up your responses when they google your name.
but i will bring it up next time i see you. ;)
Then give me the initial of my last name. I want to see if you're as brilliant as you claim.
C'mon, quit being a douche bag.
i didn't realize this thread became an instant messaging session between you and me. per your earlier advice, i'm about to leave the interwebs and go out and 'get assistance with life.'
i've identified about 7 people that you might be (all of whom need assistance with brief-writing). but if i had to narrow it down, i'd venture to say you live in the "house of studs."
2:20
congrats on boning your nasty middle aged saggy beef curtained wife for the 5th time this week. meanwhile...ill go out, have some drinks, and most likely bring home an undergrad sorority girl. think about that while trying to get up for your mustached wife.
btw...its no surprise you didnt understand the last post. hence - me asking whether you understand. oh well, im sure your partner can explain it to you as you fellate him.
Well, my initial instincts were correct: you're a dumbass. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Green peace needs lawyers too (but you already know that!)
Wow 10:21. If Spitzer can go to sex addiction rehab so can you. Get some help.
well this is constructivce
7:16 here again. To 3L Hawk.
It's kind of humorous that you have narrowed it down to "7 people"...doesn't that in itself show the lack of "diverse viewpoints" that you claim Jones "nurtures?"
*constructive
*constructive
We love Fred? Gimme a break. The guy has stinky sweaty pits and man boobs. He is disgusting.
we DO love fred. he doesn't have stinky sweat pits and he most definitely does not have man boobs. he's a slender thang.
7:16, lay off the hate a little, angry boy. I'm sure the Aryan Nations is looking for a lawyer if you can't find a job. Iowa definitely doesn't suffer from too much diversity. I can't imagine how whitebread your hometown must be that you are so offended by the toke minority population here. Let me guess: you're young, white, male, and this is the first time you haven't had success handed to you. Always told yourself you're Ivy and suddenly you're insignificant and looking to shift the blame elsewhere. Lesson: life's rough, get a helmet. Man up.
And for those east coast snots hating on Iowa, I'd point you to the fact that Iowa consistently has the highest SAT scores in the country and is ninth in the country for best public education system. And, aside from some small minded bigots like 7:16 (assuming he's an in-stater to begin with), towns like Iowa City are full of intelligent and open minded people.
Surely most Iowans take the ACT. The SAT-takers would be self-selected from the top as they intended to apply to schools outside flyover country.
The University of Kentucky dropped to 59th, not that anyone cares, including our faculty. 9 faculty members on sabbatical in the next academic year, 2 retiring, 1 teaching part time, our 3rd acting Dean in 4 semesters. There are 12-15 classes not being offered next year because we don't have the damn professors. Frankly, 59 is far to generous.
Hey UVa students: I'm goin there for your little softball tournament next week. Where's the best place I can go to pick up your school's undergrads who will be impressed that I go to a T14 law school?
Apparently rankings are all that matter in life... but seriously, if there's a place I can go, let me know
lol at iowa and unc (and to a much lessor extent. minn).
welcome to the world of numbers, numbers that you do not and have not had.
get your student quality comfortably in the top fifty and then you can pretend to be shocked by mid 20's and 30's rankings. go whine to your peer schools--the dozos, diegos, loyolas, villonovas, pitts.... .
I never made any comment remotely close to "Iowa has too much diversity"...and I am not a "white privileged male bigot" who "has not had success."
Diversity can be a good thing. I just don't think it should be the overriding consideration of every decision made by our dean. I don't think that position is so unreasonable.
Also - I like the people at Iowa. The overwhelming amount of people here are smart and reasonable. Most of the teachers that I have had are excellent - and contrary to what others would assert, Iowa does provide good opportunities for employment. If you can manage to get in state tuition (or a scholarship), it is a good bang for your buck.
>>We at Iowa are losing ground... and it is clear that the diversity program is a key reason for that happening. <<
There is no diversity "program" at Iowa, or any other law school for that matter. The endeavor is really one that flows more organically from the mindset of those in charge, namely the administration and faculty. These efforts are much more subtle than any "program." In light of Grutter, they have to be.
No, the diversity effort is a complex mix of pronouncements from higher up the university food chain and the social/political agendas of the law school faculty and administration. Most of the people pushing these efforts are those who couldn't deal with the reality of the legal profession. They finished at the top of their law school classes, but when confronted with the "reality" of law practice, couldn't deal. In essence, law practice is nothing more than a slightly elevated white collar job that demands somewhat more complex skills and the ability to think in an organized manner, while also being able to deal with a high level of abstraction and critical thinking. Most non-white males seem to find this work repulsive; they think that they're above having to "work for a living" and run and hide in academia. This is clearly in force at Iowa. The people in the top administrative jobs did well in law school but then couldn't cut it in the real world. Also, they found that the real world wasn't receptive to their skewed view of the world. They didn't realize that law practice is a business; it's not about saving the world, it's about getting, retaining and servicing clients - not increasing the ranks of the profession with unprepared minorities.
So...these people drift into law schools and then begin their attack on the "profession." A profession they see as dominated by the white males that they view as having closed the doors on their views of what they wanted from a legal career. So the undertake this effort to increase the ranks of law schools with people who are either ill prepared or unprepared or ill suited for a legal career, give them money support and encouragement, and never tell them about what awaits them in the reality of law practice.
In essence, this attempt by administrators closely resembles the typical "Broadway" mother: a person who wants their child to be the star that they couldn't be. It's also, in some twisted way, their effort to get back at the profession they feel has rejected them and what they wanted to do with their legal education. So they fill the ranks of law schools with people who don't necessarily want to be lawyers, but feel that they should be given an equal opportunity to have the "keys to the kingdom." What you end up with is a very distorted attempt to shoe-horn the social agendas of the administrators into the program of preparing people for the legal profession. Ultimately, this effort fails (just look at the number of non-white males who stay in and succeed in the legal profession) but these people don't want to deal with this reality. No, they continue to "use" the diversity rap to exorcise their need to influence and change the profession. When you think about it, it's very cynical and selfish. They are really using these people as a tool to carry out their distorted social agenda. Notice how these same people are nowhere to be found when these students come out of law school and run into the brick wall of reality.
I'm a Buffalo student. The school gave me a poor kid tuition waiver which was for full tuition the first year but seems to have a half life of one year so now it's less than 1/4 of tuition. WTF? Regardless the school made out well on me. I scored well above Buff's 3rd quartile LSAT numbers. Although, I'm not a URM I think diversity and ranking can be done at Buffalo. Keep it cheap and poor kids (who we often say are minorities) will come. Don't give any money to someone below both UGPA and LSAT 1st quartile numbers though, regardless of economics or skin.
One way to get diversity numbers is to take all Cooley's URMs every year. We had a few T4 transfers come in, some of which now have BigLaw jobs, but they were all white or asian. We can't poach URM transfers? That wouldn't hurt the USNews rankings while it would help the LSAC diversity numbers (which might encourage more minorities with good numbers to apply in the following years). Why not have a program where we troll for native New York URMs at tier four schools and waive their transfer fee applications? It would help get minority lawyers back to New York.
so i go to nyu. i don't really care much about the rankings, and i've pretty much always assumed nyu and columbia were about as good as one another since i started following 4 years ago or so. i just don't get the whole anti-nyu thing... it seems only to be coming from non-nyu kids.... everyone i know here really loves it, is having a great time, great profs, likes the other kids, etc. i totally buy that the name doesn't carry the same clout, but that's self-reinforcing, isn't it? like, if the kids and profs and whatnot are all good, isn't the reputation lagging behind the actual merit of the school?
Too bad some of those 1st quartile students for LSAT ranked in the top 10% of the class. LSAT doesn't mean anything unless you are 170+ or 145-
Why are law schools such ranking whores?
They shouldn't be pussies and stand up like the dental schools did so all this ranking B.S. would go away.
Ref: http://www.tambcd.edu/DentalCE/askdoc/html/school_rankings.html
Big Ten Boycott!
Carolyn Jones was a diversity tool at Connecticut, where she was a professional administrator and an underproductive scholar. While there, she also was no fan of U.S. News, she despised the productive scholars on the faculty, and she was no fan of the law school hiring top scholars. She also seriously lacks presence in person. I am frankly surprised a school like Iowa (once considered the best in the Midwest) would choose to have her as a Dean but I think that the good thing about this is that Illinois (already a much better faculty and student body) will finally surpass Iowa in the rankings once and for all.
If Buff wants more diversity it needs to step up its recruiting (recruit nationally, or semi-nationally). If we try to increase diversity WITHOUT expanding the scope of our recruiting, our numbers will necessarily go down (letting in MORE of ANYBODY without considering a larger group of prospective students will drive numbers down). On the other hand, if Buff doesn't expand its recruiting, and continues to admit candidates with numbers below its desired average, then it MUST OFFSET this with scholarship money. Scholarship money should be used to sway candidates whose numbers bring Buff's average up to the extent necessary to counterbalance those who bring the average down. Alternatively, the money could simply be used to recruit high quality students who increase diversity in the first place. This is probably the standard practice at most schools, but not Buffalo. When I came to Buff, my LSAT scores were well above the average and I recieved no scholarship money. I know of a number of people who recieved significant scholarships for reasons unrelated to (statistical) merit. I'll admit that it isn't hurting me, and I made my decision based solely on the price of tuition. But there are bound to be other applicants, with scores who could help our rankings, who would not choose Buff without some kind of additional incentive (like scholarship money). Sorry for the long post.
It is true that Illinois students are better but I'd put Iowa's faculty against Illinois' anyday. We have some really great professors at Iowa. All of my professors are world class scholars. Illinois has no one like Herb Hovenkamp. I could have gone to Illinois and chose to attend Iowa because I liked it's environment a lot better. The weather's much nicer too! ;)
NYU,
I think it's just envy. I would go to NYU in a heartbeat, and so would everyone else on this board. Iowa or NYU???? It's a no-brainer.
However, I recently had the misfortune of meeting Prof. Bill Nelson of NYU (Con Law), and he is quite possibly the most obnoxious individual I've ever met.
Can someone please list the rankings for Davis, Mcgeorge, UCLA, U of SF, GGU, Hastings , Loyola & Boalt. Treo phone won't let me open usnews page must be much advertising. Thx
Can someone please list the rankings for Davis, Mcgeorge, UCLA, U of SF, GGU, Hastings , Loyola & Boalt. Treo phone won't let me open usnews page must be much advertising. Thx
I went to Buffalo for my first year in 2003/04 and then left for a higher ranked school. However, my decision to leave had more to do with the fact that I had no ties to Buffalo, hated the weather, and the city. In retrospect this was a mistake
It is a good school, with good profs, and good students. In my opinion the students at Buffalo were more intelligent than the students of the higher ranked school that I transferred to. It is also superb value for money at $14,000 a year for tuition, and Buffalo is very cheap to live in.
All my friends who stayed have secured good jobs in Buffalo or NYC. However, for those previous posters who have mentioned being in the "top 20%" to secure biglaw jobs out of Buffalo, there is one problem: Buffalo does not have class rankings at all. I am not sure if this has changed since I left.
This is the frst time since the U.S. News rankings came out that Iowa is not in the top 25 of U.S. News. Although she is praying for more money, Dean Jones is simply not symphathetic to the things that need to be done to improve Iowa's ranking, including increase the median LSAT. Check out http://www.uiowalawblog.com/blog/ to keep up with the issue.
>>This is the frst time since the U.S. News rankings came out that Iowa is not in the top 25 of U.S. News.<<
This is not true. Below are historical USNWR rankings of Iowa:
1991: 19. University of Iowa
1992: 25. University of Iowa
1993: 23. University of Iowa
1994: 19. University of Iowa
1995: 19. University of Iowa
1996: 33. Univ of Iowa
1997: 24. Univ of Iowa
1998: 24 Univ of Iowa
1999: 23. Univ of Iowa
2000: 21. University of Iowa
2001: 20. University of Iowa
2002: 18. University of Iowa
2003: 21. University of Iowa
2004: 21. University of Iowa
2005: 25. University of Iowa
1991 Iowa 19
1992 Iowa 25
1993 Iowa 23
1994 Iowa 19
1995 Iowa 19
1997 Iowa 24
1998 Iowa 24
1999 Iowa 23
2000 Iowa 21
2001 Iowa 20
2002 Iowa 18
2003 Iowa 21
Average: 21.33
It is true that Jones is not up to the tasks at Iowa. As the above post mentions, she is more interested in pushing her "diversity" agenda and seems to have little to no interest in maintaining or increasing the quality of the school and making sure that there is a clear path between the training of future legal professionals and the employment opportunities available for those coming out of that institution.
JPM,
Buff still doesn't rank, but it gives us a formula whereby we can estimate whether we are in either the top 10-15 percent or in the top 25 percent. We can put this estimate on our resume (of course noting that it is an estimate).
Dean Jones' diversity agenda is ridiculous to the point of absurdity. There is not only a problem with her fundraising ability. I have heard that quality faculty Iowa has considered hiring have been very turned off by her (and by the diversity faction she seems tocater to). Iowa has lost out on hiring faculty to some pretty poor law schools of late. With the retirement of some of the more eminent professors, the law school really needs to hire some strong faculty who are nationally recognized and productive scholars.
Best UVA bar for picking up UGs: Coupes, followed by Biltmore.
I guarantee you will have a sweet time, but get destroyed by our absurdly good softball teams. Seriously, the teams we put in that tournament are unreal, they'll just hit bombs all day.
Why would a legal scholar of any quality or potential come to Iowa at this point? After what happened to Wetlaufer two years ago - he was intimidated into apologizing for having the temerity to engage in honest intellectual discussion and exploration - it's not hard to see how people would be put off by what's happening there. Jones was a major factor behind this effort at "diversity."
Illinois is a joke. No matter how much they manipulate their US News ranking, the only people who seem to care are US News.
Of the T1 Big 10 schools, guess which were the only two that didn't make the Vault (i.e. employablity) 25 list?
1:15:
That situation with Wetlaufer is really something that should be ignored. It was perpetuated by an unstable, crazy chick and no one agreed with her asinine opinion. From what I experienced, the entire student body and faculty was on his side, not hers. I'm sure there's a crazy self-righteous person at every law school out there--Iowa shouldn't be singled out by any means.
I would also like to echo what JPM said about Buffalo. I am a 3L who transfered to a Top 20 school after my first year in Buffalo. I liked the school and profs. But I had no ties to Buffalo, and their current system of not ranking AND not calculating GPA was the reason I got out of there when I could. I did really well, but employers in my home state didn't understand the system when I applied to jobs didn't consider me.
Buffalo needs to ditch their veil of mediocrity and start calculating GPA and class rank. Or at least implement a quartile system if opposed to ranking! The estimated rank system is little consolation. When I said I was in the estimated top 15%, employers unfamiliar with the system assumed that meant sitting at 15%. Plus, the 15% and 25% category estimates were not accurate and possibly under-inclusive.
>>>>That situation with Wetlaufer is really something that should be ignored. It was perpetuated by an unstable, crazy chick and no one agreed with her asinine opinion.<<<<<<
And Dean Jones (along with a number of minority faculty) gave credibility to her opinion. The Dean publicly gave credibility to the student's complaints and accelerated a diversity effort, including diversity training, in response to the episode.
For those who wish to read about how Dean Jones used the student episode to bully Professor Wetlaufer, and to launch a diversity on steroids effort at Iowa, the submission to Iowa legislature is online, http://www.legis.state.ia.us/lsadocs/SC_MaterialsDist/2006/SDSJL182.PDF.
Read the articles at these links to see what happens at Univ. of Iowa Law when you try to engage in honest intellectual exploration and discourse.
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2006/05/05/Metro/NWord.Roils.Law.School-1901909.shtml
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2006/05/12/Opinions/The-Power.And.Uses.Of.Words-1984655.shtml
http://blogs.dmjuice.com/?p=2119
3/28 @ 11:43 re: louisville
Yes, Louisville is a TTT. I'm currently a 3L. 90% of my classmates are idiots, and administration is incompetent for a wide variety of reasons. But I turned down $180K in debt at a T14 to go here - and now I'm top 5% with a top job in this market and no debt. So while you guys work your 80 hours a week, I'll be putting in between 50 and 60, which will actually give me time to spend with my family. But then again, I'm one of the lucky ones - fewer than 10 of my classmates after 1L year got jobs at the larger louisville firms. Thus, because I know not everyone is going to end up with my 1L grades, I strongly discourage everyone from going to UL law because of their shitty career services (among the other administrative problems).
But there's more important things to consider - we're going to kick UNC's ass tonight! GO CARDS!!!
Crabby Hawkeye-
Yeah, I've never had/met Nelson, but he has the worst course evaluations I've ever seen.
Who can argue with the power of language?
i think it's total bs that attorneys in new york work harder than elsewhere (i know its very on topic). every weekend im in the office and check this board throughout the day and there are very few new comments. if everyone in ny is working so hard every weekend, why aren't there more new posts (atl hypes that most people that post here are from NYC and the northeast). is there just no work to do up there?
maybe i'll move to NY so i can have a cushy job, like all of the rest of you.
4:26 --
That's bad form.
2:33
Your link is bad. I would like to read about that.
The 2:33 link is good... but slow.
I read it myself.
READ IT!!!!
4:57
Wow. There's a cold place in hell for that girl. Wetlaufer is an amazing man and Jones is an effing moron for giving her a voice. I believe in karma. And while I'd never do it myself, maybe 4:26 calling her out by name will end up giving her the reputation she deserves.
It wasn't "that girl" who was the main thrust behind this whole incident. Yes, she filed and complaint, and yes, she was quoted in the news stories. No, Jones caved into the demands made by the BLSA. Pure and simple.
It wasn't "that girl" who was the main thrust behind this whole incident. Yes, she filed the complaint, and yes, she was quoted in the news stories. No, Jones caved into the demands made by the BLSA. Pure and simple.
5:09
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
5:11:
Don't believe me? Then read the articles at these links.
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2006/05/05/Metro/NWord.Roils.Law.School-1901909.shtml
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2006/05/12/Opinions/The-Power.And.Uses.Of.Words-1984655.shtml
http://blogs.dmjuice.com/?p=2119
Read this:
http://media.www.dailyiowan.com/media/storage/paper599/news/2006/05/05/Metro/NWord.Roils.Law.School-1901909.shtml
5:11:
Do your homework before you open your mouth. If you were at the school when this happened and kept up with the news stories, you would know that it was the BLSA that forced this whole issue and made it public. They claimed that Wetlaufer's behavior was another incident in a long line of incidents that created a hostile environment for minorities at the UofI law school. In the words of Steve Nelson (he was quoted in newspapers): this incident "was the straw that broke the camel's back."
When I entered Univ of Iowa College of Law its ranking was 19th, and now that I have been out of school for a year it's down to 27. Every year it seems to drop a few points, and something really does need to be done. Most of my friends still in school there who are facing a difficult job market are all calling for Dean Jones resignation. Crybabys, maybe, but considering Iowa City (and Iowa for that matter) has no decent legal job market, rankings count when looking to Chicago, the Twin Cities, and elsewhere for employment.
5:36:
I was at BLB when the incident happened. It was a goddamned shame. I wouldn't doubt it if that incident was a prime cause of the declining Iowa ranking -- it was a very big deal when the administration and a very small minority of ONE student decided to demonstrate how ridiculous the PC movement can get.
An academic, in an academic setting, who was not using an epithet as an epithet, was censured in public by his own administration because one student was "offended". That's what happened. The BLSA got on board, of course... because that's the job of the BLSA. Most of the posters on this board are singling out this incident as an example of how academia can be and is harmed when the PC movement gets cultish and crazy. Most of the people posting here, I think, don't blame the BLSA or the "one girl", or even Jones outright. The point is that the "culture of diversity" that is brewing at BLB has become stifling -- not to "whites" or "blacks" or "minorities", but to EVERYONE.
And, regardless of your less than hidden derision for the BLSA, the consensus among those in BLB at the time -- and certainly among those of us in the class -- is that the blame for that great embarrassment falls primarily on the shoulders of one person. That person is NOT Wetlaufer.
Now, let's move on already.
Yo, "I Was In The Effing Class":
From The Daily Iowan
Issue date: 5/5/06
The UI Black Law Students Association and other concerned students sent a letter on April 24 to President David Skorton recommending that the College of Law take steps to remedy the Wetlaufer situation and making "near-future" suggestions to address "greater diversity concerns."
Short-term requests include, among others:
• A published policy pertaining to professor and student conduct in class regarding discussions of diversity issues, including, but not limited to, race, gender, class, and sexual orientation; also, procedures for students to express grievances resulting from noncompliance.
• An immediate written apology from Gerald Wetlaufer acknowledging he failed to provide a context for using a racial epithet and failed to properly respond to the concerned student and the class.
'Near-future' recommendations:
• The faculty and staff at the College of Law participate in diversity training on an annual basis.
• Require diversity training for all new law school students during the orientation week.
• The college make genuine efforts to increase diversity among its faculty and staff.
• The newly established diversity committee asses the law school community and curriculum.
As my academic advisor told me: Don't take negotiations. Wetlaufer is the worst educator at the law school (and my advisor is a white male).
To UB Law students, re: class and law school rankings,
Buffalo law students are best served in the BigLaw job market by alumni who understand what the transcripts reflect and know the quality organizations at the law school. Find them and make relationships. Despite what the Albany goof above said about his review of a few law firm web sites, quality UB Law students get top jobs in NYC and beyond every year.
U.S. News rankings, while disappointing this year, have never been all that important in the "solid second tier school" space UB Law occupies. Nobody in the real world cares whether any school’s ranking is seventy-something or ninety-whatever; at some point it just doesn’t make any significant difference. Also, UB Law should be willing pay a price in the rankings in the name of the SUNY mission of providing equal access to quality education for all. The problem there is in the methodology of the rankings, not the institution. The rhetoric of associating diversity with poor quality is disturbing. New York’s only public law school should be proud of what and where it is within the broader context of nationwide law schools. UB Law remains an absolute steal in terms of tuition and value.
6:19 --
Your advisor is entitled to his/her opinion.
Of course, in a discussion about race, political correctness, and the proper level of open discussion in an academic environment, it probably doesn't help for you to insult the person. Personally, I think Wetlaufer is a phenomenal professor. Still, I understand why some people don't understand or follow him. Most importantly, however, I have the cognitive ability to understand that those viewpoints have no place in this discussion.
Now, if you don't mind, Crabby Hawkeye, how about you go back to the SpoCo and hit on undergrads while the adults continue this discussion. You see? You see how the ad hominem adds nothing to the discussion?
You have embarrassed Iowa more than enough already with your posts in this thread. Please stop. (That goes to you, too, 3L Hawk.... and, yes, I know who both of you are.)
I don't care about UB, but if diversifying produces greater ineptitude among the student body, it really IS disturbing (but not for the reasons you imply).
How the F@#$ are WUSTL and Vanderbilt ranked so high? GW and BU are far better schools
Of course US News equates diversity and social mobility with bad quality. Look who runs it.
My point, and I'm sorry you missed it, is that everyone is bickering over a professor that is disrepected by his own peers.
OK Burgher, who am I??? (and what did that add to the discussion??)
i go to UVA , and this is the first i've heard of pre-screening. i applied to top firms and got interviews with every single one (and im in the middle of the class). then i got call backs at all of them except for one-- the one i didnt get a call back with was a small firm in richmond that asked me why i was interviewing with them in the first place (which was awkward, but oh well).
from there i got an offer with every single firm i got the callback with. my offer rate was pretty much at 99%.
again, let me reemphasize that i am in the middle of the class, i interviewed with the top firms listed on the vault 100, and that there is nothing particularly diverse or special about me.
do your research before you uva-bash. next to gtown, uva gets the most number of employers on grounds of any law school. i dont know anyone in my class who wanted a firm job that didnt get one. the placement is seriously great-- its a big school with a huge alumni network. some of my friends at penn didnt do nearly so well, unfortunately.
the pre-screening has never affected me. i really dont think its a reason to not go to the school...
Crabby Hawkeye:
First, it's not necessarily true that Wetlaufer doesn't have the respect of his peers. Your advisor is only one person, and his opinion is just that, his opinion. Absent other indicia, it isn't indicative of anything other than that.
Second, no one is bickering over Wetlaufer and whether he is or isn't respected by his peers. The "bickering" is about the fact that ANY professor at Iowa was subjugated the way Wetlaufer was for doing nothing other than engaging in honest intellectual exploration and discourse. THAT is what the issue is. Iowa is more and more becoming a place where intellectual freedom is squelched in the name of "diversity" and it's sickening. It's destroying the very nature of what legal education is supposed to be about: the freedom to explore all vantage points of an issue. At the heart of this ever changing reality is a Dean, and other administrators, who seems bent on pushing through a social and educational agenda that is at odds with the needs of the students and that of a well-rounded legal education. As a result, the institution is suffering.
8:59 --
Ignore Crabby Hawkeye ... don't feed insignificant internet trolls.
Thanks.
Now, in my book, Burgher, that is hypocrisy. I guess you don't listen to your own lectures on the demerits of ad hominem. Listen, I think that the whole dropping the n-word thing in class was blown out of proportion (especially, as I understand it, since he was using those words to demonstrate its impropriety). That said, it's not like he was fired. He's still roaming the 4th floor, and in the opinion of many of my peers who were not given the same sage advice that I was, still doing a horrible job at teaching the law (DING! There's some more indicia of the fact that this argument is over a mediocre law professor).
As for Burgher's "insignificant trolls" comment, are you saying you're adding something substantive?? "Delusions of grandeur." I like Iowa. I like most of my professors, I even like the Burgher of Calais statue out front. But to be bitching over Wetlaufer two years after the fact is pathetic (and I'm a huge critic of the Dean).
No response, Burgher?
I hate you.
I hate myself, too.
And I hate that when I graduate I'll have to work at Barnes and Noble.
I am the new L2L !!!!!!
I am the new L2L !!!!!!
I am the new L2L !!!!!!
wow you 3Ls that didnt get a job need to chill out...no wonder you all went to NOLA. stop embarrassing our school.
5:36
I, too was int he class. A lot of the BLSA students were not. It was uncalled for, unecessary and that girl is a self righteous idiot. Don't blame others (BLSA) for HER STARTING a sh*tstorm over nothing.
>>Don't blame others (BLSA) for HER STARTING a sh*tstorm over nothing.<<
I will most definitely blame the BLSA. They're the ones that pushed the issue, claimed that it was the final incident in a long line of such occurrences that made minorities "uncomfortable" in the law school, and the BLSA is the group the collectively pushed the issue with university administration and with the Dean of the law school. Had they just shut up and let the incident go, I highly doubt that anyone would have cared that the one "girl" made a mountain out of a molehill.
At the end of the day, the Dean of the law only pushed the issue the way she did because the BLSA got their knickers in a knot over nothing, overreacted and tried to characterize the incident as one that was emblematic of an inherent problem of antagonism toward minorities. The BLSA is the group the blew this whole incident out of proportion. Deal with it!
Now I'm anonymous! They took mah name! They took mah name!
I'm the new L2L!!!
Why can't I has a job for me?
I'd be willing to bet that after I graduate, I'll be making far more money than the moron who stole my name . Hell, I might make more this summer than that person will have on his/her '08 W-2s.
I'mma make-a bunches dollars! i'mma rich, rich man! I'mma gonna be a Bigslawyer attorney!
I'MMA HAVE A SUMMER ASSOCIATE JOBS!
Shut up, Punk. We all know who you are.
Then e-mail me at my student e-mail address.
Dude, there are meds for your anger management and dissociative disorders.
What the hell is L2L anyway?
Wake up, Shitbag: I'm not even a student at Iowa.
Jesus, you're a chump.
Some additional recommendations to stop the bleeding at Iowa: http://obscureminority.blogspot.com/
An additional suggestion that I would make: Carolyn Jones needs to go at the end of her 5 year term. Bring in a dean with gravitas who has vision and ambition and who is not medicated.
Is the problem Dean Jones or is it the faculty? Only a handful of faculty at Iowa are really ambitious and I really don't think that most faculty care about the rankings at all. Most seem rather dismissive of the whole rankings thing. Perhaps Dean Jones lack of ambition and incompetence is just a reflection of the faculty's will.
10:21/go hawks -- Good stuff. If that's what you need to convince yourself of to sleep through the night after coming home alone, then good for you. Just know I'm laughing at you. Moving on now. Bye.
Reading all these racist, bigoted and homophobic posts from Iowa students (who are hiding under the "anonymous" veil) has proven to be quite the terrifying endeavor. I find it rather ironic that said posters are operating under the presumption that they (and our sinking rankings) are the victims of a vast, left-wing, multicultural (yikes) conspiratorial agenda when I am one of only two black males in my entire class. Not my Intro class, not my Con Law II class, BUT THE ENTIRE 3L CLASS.
I am not pleased that our rankings are falling, but I am profoundly disturbed that many Iowa students feel compelled to first point the finger at the few minorities on campus. Shame on all of you.
-Josh Williams, 3L
Reading all these racist, bigoted and homophobic posts from Iowa students (who are hiding under the "anonymous" veil) has proven to be quite the terrifying endeavor. I find it rather ironic that said posters are operating under the presumption that they (and our sinking rankings) are the victims of a vast, left-wing, multicultural (yikes) conspiratorial agenda when I am one of only two black males in my entire class. Not my Intro class, not my Con Law II class, BUT THE ENTIRE 3L CLASS.
I am not pleased that our rankings are falling, but I am profoundly disturbed that many Iowa students feel compelled to first point the finger at the few minorities on campus. Shame on all of you.
-Josh Williams, 3L
Josh Williams:
Calm down! No one is "[pointing] the finger at the few minorities on campus." I have no doubt that all students want the law student body to reflect society and they want people deserving of opportunity to have that opportunity.
What people are angry about is the cynical, patronizing, arrogant, and somewhat underhanded way the current administration goes about pursuing their social agenda to the detriment of the neeeds of the students who are there to receive a legal education.
I've been out for a while and haven't been paying much attention, but I think Iowa's administration has done a good job keeping the ranking from dropping even further. I haven't looked at the criteria in years, but a lot of the criteria are stacked against Iowa. Average pay . . . Iowa has low average salaries and a lot of grads stay in state or go to other lower paying midwest areas. Minority representation . . . Iowa , as a state school, is obligated to take the majority of its admits from residents; the state has very low minority population.
One thing that can be done for pay, Drake, that TTT, needs to shut down. The state can't absorb that many grads each year. Drake should focus on its successful ventures, like basketball.
This is all Drake's fault.
Calm down Josh. No one's pointing the finger at minorities. We are, however, pointing the finger at an incompetent administration that lacks vision and ambition and who overreacts anytime an issue of race or diversity comes up, as well as the BLSA's hysterical reaction to the Wetlafuer episode. If you can't disassociate this from your race that's your problem. I understand that the administration listens to opinions like your, but shame on you for trying to turn this into a race issue. It's a leadership issue, not a race issue.
Josh Williams:
Tell me this, why is it that when a straight white male doesn't want to be discriminated against by lesbians, gays, and minorities, that person is immediately defined, as you say, as a racist, bigot and homophobe?
Hmmm?
What's wrong with a little competition within the state of Iowa? How can you say that this is Drake's fault? Drake does not even rank among the top 100 law schools. Even if it did, you don't see Georgia complaining about Emory, UNC complaining about Wake Forest, etc. Plain and simple, Iowa makes its own problems in lacking ambition, vision and leadership. During the same period that Iowa has declined, George Mason, Georgia, Alabama and many other law schools have risen significantly in the rankings. This is about the lack of vision and leadership from the administration, not the fact that there is some in-state competition from Drake for Iowa's weakest students.
Look at a ch