The U.S. News Rankings: More Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth
To be perfectly honest, we're getting tired of writing about the new U.S. News & World Report law school rankings. But judging from the number of comments on our earlier posts -- 1,153 and 575, as of this posting -- you're not tired of reading and talking about them. So, onward.
In our last post, we wrote about law schools freaking out over their falling rankings. The schools we specifically mentioned, whose administrators sent out defensive messages to the student body on the subject, were the University of Buffalo (down from 77 to 100), the University of North Carolina (from 36 to 38), the University of Iowa (from 24 to 27), and the University of Minnesota (from 20 to 22).
To this list of law school lamentation, please add Case Western, which went from 53 to 63 (memo posted in the comments, but independently verified by us) [FN1]; and the University of Miami, which fell from 70 to 82. One UM student had harsh criticism of Dean Lynch's message (PDF):
Here's Dean Dennis Lynch's blast to University of Miami students, attempting (complete with a cornucopia of grammatical errors -- maybe this is indicative of the problem?) to explain away a nearly 25% drop in the rankings over the last three years (resulting in an institution now perilously teetering on the edge between Tier II purgatory and Tier III oblivion).I'd direct your attention to his trumpeting of UM's "ranking" on the oh-so-often cited 'Law Dragon' survey. With someone like this in charge -- to say nothing of UM's past glory, like professors getting arrested for soliciting prostitutes -- the real wonder is how UM is even ABA accredited, let alone ranked on U.S. News.
Self-hatred much? We love our UM tipsters, but maybe they need to find themselves some good therapists.
Not every administrator at a law school that slipped in the rankings viewed sending out a school-wide email as such a hot idea. From a future law student, who won't graduate law school until 2011, but who's already an ATL tipster (call us Socrates -- we like to corrupt the youth):
I was at the U of Illinois College of Law admitted students weekend. In the 2009 USN&WR ratings, Illinois Law "fell" from #25 to #27. So, the dean of admissions spent the first 15 minutes of a 30 minute break-out session ostensibly about "Campus Housing Options" talking about the rating decline.He said that "at some schools, like Minnesota and Iowa, the students are so freaked out about this that the administration sends out emails immediately to calm them down, but we're not going to do that here, because you know it will be on AboveTheLaw.com in 30 seconds after I hit 'send.'
Well, we're not that fast. But thanks for the compliment and shout-out.
More discussion and links, after the jump.
In any ranking system, there are winners and losers. For every school that went down in the USNWR rankings for 2009, some school went up. Professor Paul Caron collects press releases from triumphant law schools in this post. Some of them are pretty cringe-worthy, but that's to be expected. [FN2]
Of course, should one of these winning schools see a tumble in rank in 2010, expect the dean to issue sharp criticism of the deeply flawed U.S. News methodology. As Professor Brian Leiter writes, commenting on the "Hall of Shame" (i.e., "Schools Publicizing Their Meaningless US News Ranking"):
Someone else will no doubt figure out how many of these Deans, or their predecessors, signed the letter urging students to ignore the U.S. News rankings. While I have some slight sympathy with lesser-known schools trying to publicize an unusually good result on the U.S. News "roulette" wheel (even though it is quite likely to come back to haunt them in another year), it's a bit harder to understand what schools like Vanderbilt think they are doing.
Professor Leiter has condemned the overall rankings as "meaningless" and "garbage," but he puts more stock in the underlying data -- e.g., the reputational scores. To see the 184 law schools ranked by academic peer reputation, check out TaxProf Blog (which reveals some interesting divergences between overall rank and reputation rank).
It should be noted, however, that even the underlying data can be questioned. For example, over at the Volokh Conspiracy, Professor Jim Lindgren identifies anomalies in the job placement data for Berkeley and Columbia.
One ATL reader questions the employment data for Pepperdine, pointing out this comment on the blog of Bob Morse, U.S. News and World Report's director of data research, and noting:
If you add up the numbers that the commenter claims he received from Pepperdine, it appears that they included 23 students that "were studying for the bar full time" in their employment numbers. This would raise their employment figure by 9.4% (from 85.7% to 95.1%). This is exactly the practice that the change in the U.S. News formula was designed to eliminate. See http://agoraphilia.blogspot.com/2007/07/usn-to-change-employment-measure.html. It appears that Pepperdine may have got around the formula change by simply sending U.S. News false numbers.The commenter claims to have copied an email he received from Pepperdine (complete with the Pepperdine Recruiting Coordinator's contact information) into the post and offered to forward the email to Bob Morse. Bob's response? "Pepperdine gave U.S. News different numbers."
The numbers:
"indicated that they had a job" (79.2%) + "enrolled in full-time degree programs (6.5%) = 85.7% employed
85.7% + 23 students that "were studying for the bar exam full time" (9.4%) = 95.1%. This would reflect the 95% employment number that U.S. News reports.
Sounds like good fodder for the online chat that the ABA Journal, which just did a cover story on U.S. News "rankings czar" Bob Morse, will be holding on April 11th. From Edward Adams of the ABA Journal:
Morse will be taking questions from the public on ABAJournal.com on Friday, April 11, from 3 to 4 p.m. ET. We hope you and your readers will participate.
[FN1] Case Western's dean, Gary Simson, went all out in responding to U.S. News. In addition to the message previously posted in the comments, he sent out a second message.
(Note that Dean Simson's message may convey a misleading impression, to the extent it suggests that a school's overall ranking is determined solely by the reputation scores generated from surveying academics, lawyers, and judges. The reputation scores are only part of the overall rank, which also reflects such factors as selectivity, job placement, resources, etc.)
CASE WESTERN RESERVE UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW -- EMAIL TO STUDENT BODY FROM DEAN GARY J. SIMSON
As most of you probably know, the U.S. News rankings of law schools are
determined by four faculty per school (dean, associate dean for academic
affairs, appointments committee chair, and most recently tenured faculty
member) and by selected lawyers and judges. U.S. News does not provide
these individuals with any information about any of the schools. As a
result, a person's knowledge about the particular schools that he or she is
ranking may range from substantial to virtually nonexistent.
By contrast, the U.S. News rankings of specific programs are determined by
faculty who teach in the particular area. Two of our programs fared very
well in these more informed rankings. Health law faculty voted our health
law program fourth in the country, and international law faculty voted our
international law program sixteenth in the country. Congratulations to the
faculty, staff, and students involved in our Law-Medicine and Cox
International Law Centers!
[FN2] In terms of messages celebrating upward movement in the rankings, we especially liked this one. In some quarters, "TTT" is an epithet; but in others, it's an aspiration. It just goes to show that everything is relative -- especially in the world of law school rankings.
UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE SCHOOL OF LAW -- EMAIL TO STUDENT BODY FROM DEAN PHILLIP CLOSIUS
I am pleased to report that we have had a good week. The House subcommittee dealing with the new building has approved it. That means that the appropriate Senate and House subcommittees have approved the new building. Thanks for all the help you have given this effort, particularly UB day in Annapolis and the emails last week. Also, we have moved up to the 3rd tier in the most recent US News rankings. Our goal is to create a better law school, not simply get to a certain point in the ranking system. But this is an important step in that effort and a confirmation that we are on the right path. Many of you have helped in this effort, particularly with admissions events. Thanks for your assistance - we become the school we want to be without your help.
Phillip J. Closius
Dean and Professor of Law
University of Baltimore School of Law
Law School Deans React to Decline in U.S. News Rankings [TaxProf Blog]
Hall of Shame: Schools Publicizing Their Meaningless US News Ranking [Brian Leiter's Law School Reports]
An Open Letter to Other Law Bloggers Regarding the US News Rankings [Brian Leiter's Law School Reports]
2009 U.S News Peer Reputation Rankings (v. Overall Rankings) [TaxProf Blog]
Anomalies in the purported new US News rankings of law schools [Volokh Conspiracy]
Earlier: The U.S. News Rankings: Law Schools Lose Their S**t React
Please Do Not Wet Yourself With Excitement: The 2009 U.S. News Law School Rankings
(87) Comments
FOIST
And USNWR said unto them, 'Lo, in all those below the T14, there shall be gnashing of teeth!'
And verily, did Yale ask of USNWR, 'O' master! What of the toothless?'
'Fear not,' quoth the great one: 'teeth shall be provided.'
Will Chicago still be a T14 next year?
Got a self-esteem email from the USF Dean about dropping to third tier. He's on a mission...from God.
In general:
Please kill this topic. Enough is enough. The line between 'objective interest' AND 'feed fuel to the asinine fire' was crossed about 1,000 posts ago.
I actually have decreased my readership in the last week because of the insanity being generated from site-traffic drawn to this US news shitfest.
I also look with horror on what the last 'rankings' post devolved into in terms of the back and forth between Iowa students. It was pretty pathetic.
[Great example of what these blogposts pull in: douches like 10:40. They do these 'driveby' postings, tossing out something they hope will be incendiary / spark a conflict / stir up a response. These assholes came out of the woodwork in the last 2 weeks. autoadmit much?]
What is all this "T14" bullshit?
Why not "T21" or "T11"?
Sorry, 11:02. We keep saying T10, but then these "but we're 1337 t00" kiddies at GULC or whatever keep correcting us.
Wow I didn't know the new methodology changed the way schools had to report employment numbers.
Anyone else find it strange that most of the T3/T4 schools have "N/A" under employment percentages?
Lat: despite its name, USNWR is U.S.-centric. I think you should do a thread on which school is best in Asia because it is well known that HLS is best in Asia.
If you're not at HYS, you should pretty much just kill yourself. I'll let you into heaven if you're creative about it.
"we become the school we want to be WITHOUT your help" . . . well, guessing about their student body that sounds about right.
McNulty to 190!!!!!
T to 190!
Since when have the Pearly Gates been open for Stanford students, Pete?!
I wish people would stop fighting about this stuff. The only thing that really matters is the top 10, and Penn State is in it.
11:26,
Don't you mean UPENN State?
Agree with 10:58 Lat. Enough is enough. Send the kids home. It's dark out.
HONESTLY -- Why is the number of books in the library relevant AT ALL!?
The Penn Law troll was funny when UPenn State Philly campus students responded to it. Since they have now stopped, troll should move to explore the other confusing schools such as NYU/NYSL and University of Chicago/University of Illinois at Chicago. They must be the same school right?
Is there a douchebag factor?
(I'm looking at you Cornell)
Rankings should be based solely upon the money generated by graduates after five years in practice.
10:58 - Sorry about your school being in decline. At least you got to live in south side chicago!
11:02 - T14 is meant to convey the immutable fact that GULC will always be elite, no matter if it's 10 or 19 (although it's been 14 for at least the last 6 years straight). If GULC dropped to 16, the new elite status would be T16. O the other hand, if Vandy rose to 14 and GULC was 13, the gold standard would be T13.
Hmmn, Gary Simson at Case. Could the decline in the Case Western rankings be attributable to this?
http://crainscleveland.com/article/20070611/FREE/70608022/1008
A donor gave $3 million to the school, and the Dean didn't even come to her signature event to thank her due to his "busy schedule?" Woops!
Or how he chased out some of the most prolific faculty members because they were succesful fundraisers?
Or how he thinks that "social justice" is more cutting edge than national security?
Or how he lets the director of the international law center pull his strings with no accountability?
Or how he chased out his development staff and ruined relationships with alumni?
Or how he decided no new faculty would be hired this year?
I'd like to see the ranking and $ figures for 11:48's rankings.
Actually, Lat, I take back what I said. There have been way too many posts on these threads that have been inaccurate. So let's clear things up, then kill this thread.
1. UPenn is the same as Penn State, either in reality or at least in perception. Especially since they share a campus in Philly.
2. Southern schools: UVA>GW>GULC>Duke
3. NYC Feeders: Harvard>Yale>NYU>Michigan>Cornell>...insert 15 random schools...Fordham>UPenn State>Cardozo.
4. Chicago schools: Northeastern is about equal to Chicago nowadays.
What about UC Davis falling from 34 to 44? How come we haven't heard anything from the Davis administration about what they're doing to save their toilet school from sliding into tier-2 hell?
Say whatever you want about Georgetown but they produce some damn fine staff attorneys.
WILL YOU WHINEY LITTLE LAW SCHOOL DIPSTICKS SHUT THE FLOCK UP AND GIVE THE STUPID RANKINGS A REST?!?
Seriously, I was at a big law firm straight out of law school, spent five years there, and then moved to another big law firm. You know what? There were plenty of lower tier law school grads filling the associate and partner ranks at the old law firm, and the same goes for the new law firm.
Yeah, we have a lot of Harvard and Stanford types, too, but I know Baltimore, Miami, Southwestern, Golden Gate, Texas Tech, and Denver law school graduates doing pretty well at these firms, too. But everyone has one thing in common: they are all shitty human beings living dreary, pathetic lives.
All those stupid rankings are good for is to help place you kids in my firm, my old firm, and firms like my current firm and old firm. Even if you law school kids do end up at one of these places due to your law school's "prestige" rankings, you'll just quit or get laid off within 3 or 4 years anyway. Those who survive that 3 to 4 year time period will do so only because you sacrificed your relationships, friendships, sex drive, vacations, and social outings. And then you will be FUCKING miserable.
You will get your only daily joy out of seeing someone post "WGWAG!!!" on this dumb site. You will get your only laugh of the day when Frat Stud posts, "Back when I was in high school, guys used to beat off into office water cooler all the time. It was no big deal."
You will be a bitter, angry big law firm associate. If you are male, you will be worked so hard and be so stressed that you will not be able to maintain an erection if you are wearing a condom. If you are female, you will be so hard up, you will be doing fat, halitosis-afflicted married men who sense your desperation like a fly smells and senses fresh fecal matter. You will be pitiful. You will be me.
Enjoy your future, jerkies.
I thought the "Penn" in the top 10 was "U Penn" and the other one was something else (Penn State maybe?) Are they actually the same? If yes, then how are they ranked twice on one list?
12:10 wins the AutoAdmit troll award for the night.
What is wrong with the kids from GULC? Who gives a sh*t about T14? No one cares about anything outside of top 10. Not in the top 10=not elite.
Seriously, I know several law students and undergrads who have all pissed on UVA.
jesus 12:10. maybe if you start jogging in your spare time your erection problem will be solved...
1214-- yes, the one in the top 10 is UPenn State (Philly Campus).
12:10
You rule, dude! You da Man!
suppose that a rankings whore criticized others for discussing rankings the way the whore did. just suppose.
10:58 is right, these posts are getting old. If people want to read every pathetic email from every dean who's indignant over his school's 1/4/19/whetever point drop, just keep updating one post. People who are interested can bookmark it.
Penn is an Ivy League school founded by Ben Franklin. Accept it. Get over it. Move on with your life. Thank you.
5:16: The Ivy League is an athletic conference, get over yourself. Move on with.. I mean, Get a life.
6:07 -- I think "athletic" is a bit generous.
12:10 needs a hug!!!
I just love that TTTs are now listed in rank order, not alphabetically. I'm sure Albany is wailing about this one.
lat, please post last year's list for comparison. i want to know whether i got smarter or dumber over the past year, and by how much.
12:10 You make it sound so glamorous. Are you guys hiring?
Right on 12:10. Best post ever. There are other with as much style, but you're the first to get the "accuracy points," and that separates you from the pack.
So Pepperdine has testified falsely as to its employment stats, and Ken Starr is Dean? Can we have an independent prosecutor look into this? I nominate one of the Clintons.
I agree with 8:47, there is very little that is athletic about that conference. Unless chess and masturbation are considered "athletics."
Iowa was never a top 20 university so who cares that it is still top 30. Minnesota, on the other hand, was ranked 18th when I went, and is now not even top 20. Scandalous. I want my tuition back.
8:47 & 9:45 - Just wrong. All of the Ivies recruit some athletes who could have gone to athletic factories but chose to be exposed to education (as opposed to be educated - that's more of a struggle). In some sports, the Ivies feed the pros directly and are among the best conferences in doing so (e.g., ice hockey, lacrosse, squash), and in others they send half a dozen or more players each year (e.g., football, baseball, basketball). The quality of play within the league is about A- level compared with college play generally. Because they don't make it the center of their lives, Ivy athletes develop less slowly after high school than their counterparts in schools where sport is all they do (in effect), but they do continue to develop and many reach the highest levels. Only non-athletes wouldn't know this, so I take it your motor skills are somewhat limited (though no doubt you're able to dress yourselves).
"(as opposed to be educated - that's more of a struggle)."
Can you believe you just wrote that?
"In some sports, the Ivies feed the pros directly and are among the best conferences in doing so (e.g., ice hockey, lacrosse, squash)..."
There's an interesting continuity to the sports you've mentioned. I'll give you a few more to add--soccer, golf and tennis.
"The quality of play within the league is about A- level compared with college play generally."
OK, I went to HYP and this is just not true. Anyone who says this hasn't been to an ACC basketball game or an SEC football game. I think solid "B" would be more accurate.
10:36-
First of all, please name one professional squash player.
Yes, there are execptions to every rule, but 99% of the athletes in the Ivy League have no aspirations of going pro. Many schools in the SEC or Big 12 will send half a dozen or more kids to the NFL each year. The Ivies may send that many in total (in the 6th round).
"Only non-athletes wouldn't know this..." Come on, you are a non-athlete. I didn't attend an Ivy League school, I actually attended one with hot girls and real sports. So sue me. I got laid and played sports. I guess I went to a "TTT." I will just have to live with that.
9:45
When Jay-Z needs a lawyer, he doesn't hop over to any of the schools in Manhattan, he comes "down to Georgetown, with a Hoya Chick, Lawya Chick."
The school's reputation amongst rappers should at least be given as much weight as amount of books in the library.
GW is the most underrated law school on the East Coast.
All of you flunkies have it wrong. The "ivy league" was FORMED as an athletic conference. It's not meant to imply any current athletic prowess.
Interestingly, early last century, Georgetown was offered inclusion in the ivy league and turned it down b/c it would have required the school to divert money to its football program; Georgetown, however, favored its basketball program. The impression that Georgetown (b/c of its historical reputation, influence, etc.) is an elite school flows from the opinions of the ivy league members.
To 12:10 and everyone who agrees with him - quit.
Just do it. Walk down the hall and tell whoever it is you need to tell that you are quitting. I never understand this view when I hear my friends and colleagues start to bitch about biglaw life. Just quit already. What are you afraid of? Why be miserable? There are a million other jobs out there. Go be a bus driver, or a high school teacher, or work in a coffee shop, or become a tatoo artist, or a political consultant, or a law professor, or whatever it is you can do without hating your life.
No one is forcing you to do this job. You don't need the money that badly. Frankly, the money isn't good enough for you to sacrifice relationships and erections. Only hedge fund money is that good - and look how those shmuckos are ending up.
Life is absurd and short, and as far as we know you only get one shot. At the end you don't get any points for martyrdom in the name of higher profits per partner. If you really feel the way you say you feel, you owe it to yourself. If you won't quit, what's keeping you there? Maybe its not really so bad?
Rutgers was also in the Ivies. Is Rutgers an elite school?
Bring back the 4th Tier Lawyer of the Day!!!!
I thought Georgetown wasn't a member of the Ivy League, because it was founded on Catholicism while the Ivies were all founded on Protestantism?
12:10:
That was one of the most honest, sincere, accurate posts ever on this site.
To question it is to be a law school douche. They all believe they will be better than 'that thing that biglaw associates become...'
I'll sum it up again for law school douches and new biglaw slaves alike.
Biglaw is like cocaine. You hear about cocaine. A lot of the 'cool' people do it. It's secretive and exclusionary, the 'cool' kids go in another room at parties, or the bathroom in bars, to do it.
And it's fun. What a euphoric rush. And you're not an addict. You are just a casual user.
And you just need a little pick-me-up to get through the day. So a little in the morning after a late night won't kill you. Just this once.
Oh, and it's not so unusual to actually have it handy. It's not a lot.
Most people won't recognize at that point that they have lost, and cocaine has won. No one controls it, or beats it.
Is the analogy clear, trolls? You think you will be better? You will beat it? You will succumb like every other douche if you stay. That's why so many leave.
Biglaw is cocaine.
If all the power and self-awareness you hope to obtain in life is located in the title you may achieve in biglaw, then you probably won't realize you never have sex (you never did, did you?) You probably won't realize you never go out and meet anyone (always went out with the prep school douches, didn't you?).
You are the ones who get addicted to the coke because you really wanted to, wanted to fill that void with something. Coke, biglaw, whatever.
I don't hate you. I got out. I just find it comical that so many of you people will face this choice, and you don't even know it yet. Moreover, many of you, having some of the most enlightened educational experiences under you belt, will be so blind that you will just snort your life away in biglaw thinking that is who you are...
Oh, by the way, I hope your law school of choice did well in the rankings this year.
GW will get you to Big Law and Cocaine. Plus, GW girls are hot.
As I understand it, all of the schools are on the "honor system" when it comes to reporting the data to USNWR... and we're talking about lawyers here... so, why wouldn't we think they're all fudging the data? Maybe Pepperdine is the only one to get caught thus far?
Northwestern was caught hiring unemployables in order to boost their employment statistics. There have been a lot of others who apparently do the same thing.
yeah, the letter from Dean Lynch comes about a week after a similar excuse-based letter for raising tuition by 2 grand. very sly of them to get that increase letter out before the rankings drop. tuition up, rankings down? is this a casualty loss?
Mayhaps U of I Dropped in ranking due to their blatent bashing of Chief Justice Roberts? (Did Roberts call US News World Reports?)
Is it really that bad? Why do so many people do BigLaw if it is that terrible? Are you sure you aren't just a bitter and miserable person?
Isn't it weird that there is no Tier 2 anymore? According to US News, the top 100 are all "Tier 1." Then, the next group is Tier 3. No Tier 2. Who knew?
11:19 and 12:10 = pussies.
Biglaw is just another job. The hours are longer and the pay is better. Pretty simple trade-off. I don't love it or hate it. Its fine for now, and at some point I'll figure out what's next. The 80% of us who are normal feel this way. Please cut the melodrama. You must work for Cadwalader.
12:10 and 11:19 should combine their 2 posts and be entered as the post of the year. Lat you should carve out these 2 posts and have a completely seperate thread that discusses them. Damn I am a 3L entering big law in the fall and you guys have depressed the shit out of me.
davis sent out a few emails yesterday about the fall of 10 points. seems like they are expecting a turn around since this years rankings are based on the 2006 percentages, and the 2007 numbers kicked the 2006 numbers ass. so they are expecting a quick turnaround.
There ought to be a penalty or policing system that checks the numbers. As is, there's no incentive for schools not to inflate them.
i think "top 5" is now an appropriate phrase.
12:22
Thank you. This is what I suspect. I am sick of being inundated by complainers and whiners who make me doubt my career choice before I have even really had a chance to experience it. If it was an easy job, they wouldn't pay 25 year old kids fresh out of law school $160,000 a year to do it. I am aware of this and wish everyone would quit bitching and moaning.
"Northwestern was caught hiring unemployables in order to boost their employment statistics. There have been a lot of others who apparently do the same thing."
Really? That's not what Princeton Review says. It's rated Northwestern 3 years in a row as the school whose students have the best employment prospects.
1:52 - Princeton Review or not, nobody seriously believes that NW students have better employment prospects than HYSCCN students.
People who work 2 jobs just to put food on the table work our biglaw hours or more. And they don't make 160k. The other jobs I would enjoy doing, like working on a campaign or being an AUSA, have our biglaw hours or more. And they don't make 160k either. What are these mythical high-paying jobs that have better hours? Since there aren't any, stop complaining about the fact you work as many hours as many people but get paid a lot more to do it.
I don't get for the life of me why anyone pays attention to anything in these rankings other than the lawyer and judge reputation scores. Those never change from year-to-year. Do you think a judge hiring a clerk is aware of the latest US News rankings when evaluating a couple of candidates? Not a chance. He knows intuitively that Chicago, Columbia, Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are more rigorous and produce better prepared graduates than places like NYU, Boalt, etc. which are in another tier above Gtown, Northwestern etc. None of that changes from year-to-year depending upon the US News rankings. Perhaps it might change the enrollment decisions of intelligent applicants, but judges and hiring lawyers don't give a crap about LSAT scores and other indicators that brought somebody in, so even if more bright students now choose Boalt based on these rankings, they'll be viewed less favorably in 3 years than their Chicago counterparts who got into school with lower LSATs.
1:52 - NW does indeed INFLATE STATS. Read it and weep:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0DE7D7103CF932A05754C0A9639C8B63&scp=1&sq=northwestern+law+employment+rankings&st=nyt
Last year St. John’s went up ten points or so in the rankings. Our dean, Mary Daly, used this jump as one of the justifications for a 7% tuition hike. Now that we’ve dropped 18 spots, I’m sure our tuition refund checks are already in the mail. With the year to year fluctuations being so dramatic for the lower tiered schools, I’m amazed that our administration isn’t smart enough to keep its collective mouth shut long enough to see if there is an actual long-term trend at work. Ok, I’m not that amazed.
2:15 - Oh please. Chicago's stats are not better than most of the T14. Their PERCENTAGES are better. That's only because they have a very small class size (i.e. half of most of the T14) so it is very easy to up the percentage. Stop playing the misleading percentage game. You are just bitter because your school is now #7. Get over it.
2:15:
I was a circuit court clerk and I can tell you that I have been impressed often been impressed by non-HYS students; similarly, I have been extremely underimpressed by HYS students. It is simply not true that those schools necessarily "are more rigorous and produce better prepared graduates."
You also assume that everyone is applying to clerkships such that judge's opinions are of upmost importance. What makes you think that? Statistically speaking, that is plainly inaccruate. Also, I would argue that judge and lawyer rankings are the least reliable. Who cares if some old fuddy-duddy in the middle of Nebraska thinks Georgtown is not as good as NYU?
Also, their preception probably comes from having read or at least heard the US News & World Report rankings at some point. Judges aren't in the habit of checking to see what school all the litigators that appear before them are from.
To add to 7:24 - until about 2 or 3 years ago, NYU's repuatation scores were somewhere around #9. They've moved up because US News created the perception that NYU is better now. I assume Penn will be the same.
8:21-- Penn has a long way to go though. They're number 77, currently.
Illinois reports full market value for Lexis/Westlaw crack addiction? God knows what else they've got going on, other than the tiny class.
I think that ends the debate about "Illinois quality."
UM Tipster is dead on. Forget about a law school - Lynch couldn't lead a turd down a flushed toilet.
I don't think that Dean Simson's comments were misleading in that a previous email, and, in person, he explained the ranking in more detail than simply saying that the faculty rank schools. I think he was just trying to compare apples to apples given that the program specific rankings differ from the general law school rankings as to what faculty are surveyed.
8:21 - i doubt that us news single-handedly boosted nyu's rep scores. i'm sure that their faculty raiding did a lot for them over the years as well. unless penn makes similar significant hires, their rep numbers won't rise like that.
8:21 - another key weakness to your point is that you are a fucking idiot. Did you ever consider that maybe NYU's rep score was catching up to its actual reputation? You wont find any large firm that prefers Columbia students to NYU students.