I'm an incoming first year at a Vault top 20. From what I hear, this year's summer class is significantly smaller than last year (when I summered). Associates at the firm say things are slower than normal.

I am worried - and I already have a job. If I were an incoming summer, I'd be freaking out. My suggestion: don't focus on free lunches; instead, try to prove you'll actually be productive by working like a real associate.

Maybe the summer associates should unionize and tell the law firm that the firm can take all or none of them back.

But wouldn't the recession be over by the time any 2Ls actually start working full time. Thus they should layoff full time associates right now, and then hire us as the economy picks back up.

What about people like myself who are splitting with 9 weeks at a new firm and 3 weeks at my 1L firm. Does this put me in better shape or worse shape than the average summer?

Also an incoming first-year - also worried about the rumors going around regarding slowness - but somewhat buoyed by one associate at my firm's statement that the litigation department is as busy as she has ever seen it.

I know we (2Ls) are screwed, so I'm just going to have as fun as I can at my firm this summer.

1:23

TTT = scabs

If you're a hot woman 2L, just sleep with the partners on camera. That should give you the leverage you need for an offer and maybe even expedite your partnership track!

It's official. We are all screwed!

2L's are pretty much screwed. Hope you didn't let your grades tank.

1:26, but then the prestigious V50 firm would have to hire TTTs.

I think incoming first years and 2Ls should be afraid, very afraid. As a second year associate, I too am afraid and am trying to work my a** off so as not to get laid off.

February was a very busy month but likely still left over from 2007. So far in March -- I've billed 50 hours -- for those law students out there: that is a very slow slump.

In my so.cal. firm, this summer's class is bigger than ever. I just don't know how they are even going to be able to work a lot over the summer to "prove themselves". There just isn't going to be any work, and I sure as hell ain't giving them any of my work.

So who else has stories from 2001 about what really happened??

I summered in 2001 and 2002. In both years, the V50 firms that I summered with gave offers to 75% of the class or less. 2Ls - no one knows what the economy will be like in 18 months when you actually start work. My advice is to check the sense of entitlement at the door, seem eager to do even the most mundane work and, for the love of God, don't let your paranoia about not getting an offer color every single conversation you have with your fellow SAs or the associates around you. You're still an SA, and your life is still going to be pretty damn good. At least for 12 weeks.

I'm an incoming associate at V20 firm. Doing litigation--that seems to be doing alright, right? Counter-cyclical? Hmmm, yes?

If you want to practice corporate law, things are especially bad with no light at the end of the tunnel at this point. You should seriously consider getting a joint JD/MBA as a way to extend your schooling another year to try to come out at a time when the market will likely be good again. You could do the MBA year next year and the mixed year the following year and your firm will likely still make you an offer so long as you come back next year for 3 weeks or so.

Charnley, plenty of other professions have unionized workers. Doesn't mean they're all lazy entitled bums expecting things to fall into their laps and no consequences for their behaviour.

Summer associates of the world unite!

I am worried. I am a 2L at a T14 school and I had a summer offer to work in DC for Emperor's Club VIP. But, with the downturn in the economy, I am not sure there'll be room for me at the company's Mayflower office. What should I do?

If I were a 2L, I'd express deep and profound interest in bankruptcy or litigation.

I forget that lawyers are the epitome of chicken littles and that thinking the worst is around the bend is a reasonable thought process. Here is a little hint from someone that was a first year in '01.

The offers will be tighter and there will be more soft offers so that means you should keep your head down and produce great work product (meaning take 3X as long as you think it needs to be done - your hours are mostly written off anyway). I also wouldn't worry too much you are over 18 months from actually having to work in a law firm.

If you are a 1st year, again, I wouldn't worry about it too much as long as your are busy. Law firms will generally work down the line starting with the fat at their more senior attorneys with associates that won't make partner i.e. the up part of up or out, then work down to mid-levels. On some level, being a 1st year (particularly in lit/restructing) your are well insulated.

1:35 - Good comment and reassuring. Thanks.

Yet the recession will only dupe MORE naive people into going to law school's which, by precedent, will raise tuition again, thus creating more bitter lawyers vying for even fewer jobs. Pathetic. I might as well have gone to a terrible school for free and taken temp work for rather than pay $150k and take my current "associate" position where I am gaining "experience" for less that 1/2 BIGLAW pay to worry that their will be no room to lateral. Compared to current 2L's I should feel fortunate. Perhaps my bosses here might actually try and hold on to me.

1L summer firm jobs basically went extinct this winter (unless you were a URM in a diversity program). Luxury that firms did not feel they could afford.

2L's should absolutely be nervous.

1:39
Depends what school you went to. If you went to a top 3, you might be rated a 6 diamond and wouldn't have to worry.

Welcome to my world. And rest assured that if any of you whiny bitches decline an offer out of solidarity to your entitled co-SAs, I'll be right there to take your spot. I'm making jack right now, but I'm eager to put up with biglaw partners!

Loyola 2L, if the firm's alternative is to hire you, they would be better off making two offers to two first-tier students.

how about a top 10?

2Ls,

This summer you should buy the lawyers' lunches. Swing from partners' nuts, and generally do whatever you need to ensure a glowing review from everyone you meet.

Full time offers are definitely not guaranteed this year. And, like 1:31, I won't be giving any of my work to summers this year. You'll have to beg for work. And, don't expect anything meaningful. Bitch work is the name of the game this year.

"Charnley, plenty of other professions have unionized workers. Doesn't mean they're all lazy entitled bums expecting things to fall into their laps and no consequences for their behaviour."

Are you sure about that? Because that seems to be the case for most unionized workers.

1:39 raises a great point - not all 2Ls are screwed and the blanket statement of this post is too extreme. Corporate and other transactional areas are dead in the water now and foreseeable future, but other practice areas are either status quo or gearing up. Unless a catastrophe occurs, things will change for the better by time these 2Ls have to make decisions re: 1st job out of law school.

(As for 1:39, don't worry :) DC market for you will remain stable in any economy!)

If you are going to a good firm - a respected shop run by decent human beings - you have nothing to worry about. You may not hit your billables, but in this market you will not be expected to. 1st and 2nd year associates do not get laid off. They occasionally get axed for incompetence, but they don't eat market fluctuations. The partners will eat some of the losses and, in the worst cases, e.g., Cadwalader, some mid-levels will get canned. 1st and 2nd years DO NOT get fired or no-offered because of a recession.

1:39(1) raises a great point - not all 2Ls are screwed and the blanket statement of this post is too extreme. Corporate and other transactional areas are dead in the water now and foreseeable future, but other practice areas are either status quo or gearing up. Unless a catastrophe occurs, things will change for the better by time these 2Ls have to make decisions re: 1st job out of law school.

(As for 1:39(2), don't worry :) DC market for you will remain stable in any economy!)

Alec D'Uberville, it looks like you missed out on the writer's strike. Unless you think all actors, writers and other unionized professionals are lazy.

I'm not a 2L, but I feel sorry for all of you. the hard work you put into LSAT then the 1L's study, and now you are just facing a black hole of no return...

~yike~

Could be worse. You could be me.

I'm top 20 percent, T14, but my Vault-10 firm just revoked my 2L summer offer. WHAT AM I GOING TO DO???

So how will it work for 1Ls who were lucky enough to get a biglaw summer gig this summer? Will they NOT get an offer for their 2L summer?

I would think that 1Ls should be OK -- there's little risk to the firm of giving a 1L a 2L summer slot. Wouldn't that reduce their need to recruit 2Ls, while preserving their option to just no-offer the student as a 2L?

If you're going anywhere from Skadden to Kirkland, you probably don't have anything to worry about. These firms are well run and have broad practice areas that permit them to shift resources to react to market demand. That being said, I still recommend 2Ls act like their summer associateship is a job, and not treat it (like I've seen many summers do) like a summer camp.

to what degree are the V10 firms are insulated from the downturn in terms of full-time offers to 2Ls

I summered in 02. The firm I was at definitely had too many summers and not enough work.
For 2Ls- Don't be Crazy.
The crazy summers did not get offers when I was a summer. They included:
1 girl who worked from 1pm-3pm every day and took a 2 week vacation during the summer.
1 girl who yelled at support staff and then failed to turn in one of her projects
1 guy who didn't do any work all summer, but got way too drunk at each and every event
If you are not one of the crazy ones, you will be fine. Even in slow times, firms cannot afford to no-offer a large percentage of summers. So, yeah, keep your head down. Look eager to take on dull projects. Attend the social events, but try not to get too drunk.
And- maybe pretend that you want to do litigation, or some other area of law that is not as slow.

Party's over, parasites! No more putting up with dbags.

1:54---you have them all shitting in their pants---great trolling!

Could be worse. You could be me.

2Ls should be fine, though they should do good work.

1Ls, however... their August interviews are going to be vicious.

If you were a 1L that somehow got a Biglaw job this winter, bust your butt. They aren't thrilled about spending money on you, but they will be pleasently surprised if you are a keeper.

Dammit 1:54, you did it all wrong. Mention a specific firm, use more exclamation points, and use plausible creds if you want to be believed.

1:53 -- So you've named one exception to my statement about "most" unionized workers. Congrats. "Lazy" maybe a very slight exaggeration, but certainly, for instance, unionized teachers act very entitled. I'll also grant you an exception, at least for "lazy" (but not for the entitled thingy) for firepersons and police officers. If you were to open up the statement to unionized workers in general (versus just professionals) I think you'd lose by a landslide.

I am a 2L with a V25 firm this summer--they had a meet and greet scheduled for next month---cancelled it on Monday because of "scheduling conflicts"

All the Whos in Whoville are nervous too!

2:00 -

I'm confused -- why should 1Ls be worried? From the firm's perspective, at least you're a known quantity. As long as you're OK, why not just give the 1L a 2L position (to reduce recruiting costs/uncertainty for the firm), then if things are still bad in the summer of '09. THEN no-offer the SA as a 2L?

2:03, UVA students are, by definition, incapable of being nervous. Go down to Buddhist and chill the hell out.

2Ls, you're fucked. Enjoy the summer while it lasts.

Clear the T14 kids at V10 maybe V25 are safe. While I can see the lower firms cutting people, I cannot imagine the top firms doing it. They are all about image and nothing looks better than keeping clean when everyone else is dragged into the mud. Plus since they are fighting for the same 1,000 T6 kids, any cuts they make this summer will bit them in the recruiting ass next summer...

Glad I took the school name over the $

2L's--Just remember the only associates posting on here at this time of the day are the ones with nothing better to do(meaning they are not billing) and would never have gotten an offer as a 2L in this kind of economy (including your truly :-)).

"Glad I took the school name over the $"

Amen.

It's becoming a superstar model. People like Loyola2L are getting the squeeze while NY goes to 190 and SCt bonuses creep up to 300. The rift between top and bottom is getting bigger.

"The rift between top and bottom is getting bigger"

Welcome to America!

I'm a 2L at a Top 2 school with a V5 firm this summer, am I screwed?!????!? I'm really nervous now.

I hear that by the end of this summer most firms will start setting their attorney salaries through Priceline.com. CWT is leading the way. I just saw William Shatner leaving a conference room with a bedbug in tow.

RE: 1:56

Lindsay was recruited from Hastings. Which was the greater hell?

I am an incomming associate in bankruptcy at a V50 firm. I am worried that I will have too much work.

2:19,

That depends. Are you going to do complex cross-border transactional work or sophisticated, bet-the-company litigation?

so what does this mean for 3Ls who took COA clerkships? Anything?

I'm a 1L who just got an offer at a V100 a few weeks ago. I know other firms are still hiring 1Ls (one in particular--Dechert NY--seems to be hiring far more 1Ls than normal). My firm wants to fly me to NYC for a meet-and-greet this spring.

Things really can't be as bad as many people here are saying.

3L, will be going to a cyclical practice group in a V50.

Any chance if things are really slow they will move me over to a more stable group?

For contrast, the "transactional departments are dead in the water" thing isn't universal - I'm billing more than 12 hours a day and am on several deals, with several more on the way. We are pretty leanly staffed, but we also have a ton of work. I don't think the forecast is as universally bleak as some people are making it.

"The rift between top and bottom is getting bigger."

What a surprise that there's a difference between a 3.9 college GPA / 173 LSAT and a 3.3 GPA / 160 LSAT. Maybe Loyola 2L should have worked harder before law school.

If a 3L law student accepts a Bankruptcy Clerkship and gets done in August 2009, then is this law student in good shape to receive an offer from a v100?

150k in debt + prestigious school = wavering 2l offer security + loan repayments

VS

0k in debt + shitty school = wavering 2l offer security + i can do whatever the fuck i want for however much it pays because i dont have a debt-noose around my neck.

i think i'm gonna go ahead and pick the 2nd one. don't knock the hustle.

"Firepersons" don't act entitled? Please. They talk about 9/11 more than Giuliani and gloat about their "heroic" and "dangerous" jobs when in fact they pretty much sit around all day and play cards until someone calls with a cat in their tree or a small fire somewhere.

With all respect re: 9/11, the risk of life to firefighters that day was completely atypical for their job, just as it was for the many accountants and brokers who were in the buildings that day.

2:22,

I'm in the same position as you. I don't think we need to worry yet. I won't be starting my job search until next fall. Let's see what the scene is looking like at that point.

2:27 - WTF did that comment come from!?

1:31

"So far in March -- I've billed 50 hours -- for those law students out there: that is a very slow slump."

Uh, there have been 7 weekdays thus far. That's over 7 hours per weekday. If you bill 8 hour days the rest of the month with no weekends, you're looking at 162 hours for the month. That's below average, but HARDLY a "very slow slump."

all the people talkin about the rift between elite schools and shitty schools- it just got me thinking.

I'm clerking for Thomas next term. Will I be able to get V100?

No 'truth be told' sorry for the lack of clarity. I mean the 2:27 9/11 dude. WTF is up with THAT comment!?

2:19.....you go to a "top 2" school, do you? LOL. Sounds like someone wishes they went to Yale.

"the risk of life to firefighters that day was completely atypical for their job, just as it was for the many accountants and brokers who were in the buildings that day"

You see, 2:27, the difference in that the risk to life was something the firefighters had because the went running toward the danger, in an effort to help the suits. The suits were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

2:27 - er, uh, dude... I think I said (albeit obtusely, I suppose) that firepersons did act as though they were entitled.

2:30, you don't work 5 days a week in this job. 50 hours over 11 days is crap.

Realistically, the top firms are not going to change their policy of giving offers to virtually 100% of the summer class -- it's not worth the recruiting hit they perceive that they would take in the future. More likely, firms will (as we've seen) have smaller summer classes and start squeezing out current associates that aren't receiving enough work to make their hours.

2:27 right on. I have an SA offer but I went to a public law school and will have less than $8K in debt. Not too worried if my first job doesn't pay 3 figures...

Define TTT

2:46-

Someday I dream of making 3 figures myself.

2:27(1), it depends on where the clerkship is located and your credentials

Firepersons sounds stilted and forced. Fireman sounds better. There are better PC fights to pick that ones with the English language.

1:56 isn't totally on the mark. They always tell you that you're fine if you don't do anything that puts you into the summer-associate-lore category. Just not true. I was a 2L summer at a branch office of an international BigLaw firm. Less than half the summers got offers. This may happen to you. I know this sounds, but fear not, law students! If you summer at a big firm and don't get an offer, it'll suck. Landing your first job (if you still want to go BigLaw) will be harder than if you hadn't been a BigLaw summer in the first place, true. But you'll be fine. Save your money during the summer to create a nest egg to get you through your 3L year and through the bar exam. Make sure you come out of your summer with a kickass writing sample. That way you can show future employers that can produce excellent work product. Even if the firm treats you like crap and you get stabbed in the back by others, etc., still try to personally bond with at least one partner who you can later use as a reference. All of this will help you.
That's just during the summer. If you end w/out an offer, you'll have to take major proactive steps immediately afterwards. Go to as many networking events as you can. Secure unpaid internships during your 3L year to put more quality legal experience on your resume and maybe meet more people who can make calls for you and vouch for you. If you don't show your next prospective employer that you rock and that you stand out compared to other 3Ls (and, frankly, that it was really the prior firm who screwed you and not that you screwed up), it's going to be tough. Much tougher if you are wondering how you are going to pay your next rent check. But fear not, we all make out fine. It will be a small bump in your path to lawyerdom, but you'll be hardened and more experienced for weathering the storm.

The top talent will keep their offers and their bonuses. Firms aren't slowing down with clerkship hiring bonuses.

People who slacked through law school and are just being used to do doc review should watch out.

2:36, why are you working weekends if you are billing less than 5 hours on the weekdays?

When I was younger, I used to watch Heperson battle Skeletor on TV.

They're not hiring you for now. They are hiring you for 2009. I don't know many mainstream analysts predicting that the downturn will continue until then. Savvyy firms will recognize this and not cut back on their 2L offers.

3:00 -- Keep dreaming!

Clark:

Top 20 school, slighlty below median, bankruptcy clerkship in a big city in the south. (Not SDNY or anything)

Im just curious as to the job prospects if this is the career path someone chooses.

The firm I'm working at recently sent me information on pro bono opportunities for the summer, and asked that I rank what pro bono work I'm interested in, if any. I think my firm may be a little over-subscribed. Because I'm not cold-hearted, I'd like to do some pro bono work, but because I'm also concerned about ensuring I get an offer, I'm wondering if I should not do any in favor of substantive, financially productive work. Any thoughts?

Thanks for ruining my day Lat! I am now paralysed with fear!

If I get no offered I am so so screwed. My girlfriend will dump me and my family will see me as a loser.

Lat, I feel that you are purposely trying to breed anxiety. Not cool man, not cool.

Sweet. Now I have something to stress about while I'm on spring break.

The economy is not going to turn around in 2009. Inflation is rapidly accelerating. The fed is trying to create another real estate bubble with its rate cuts but it's not going to happen. We aren't getting out of this anytime soon.

2:52: Good advice-- but it sounds like someone doesn't know that they were the crazy summer associate.

2:30, I know which days of the week I work "in this job," thanks.

If you only have enough work to bill 50 hours, it means you're probably not having to come in on the weekend. 50 hours over 11 days when 4 of those days are weekends is not "crap." It's just like 1 out of every 2 or 3 eleven day stretches. It's not even enough to register is a particularly slow period, let alone, long enough to be a "slump." If you billed 120 hours over 20 days, would you consider yourself "slammed?" Of course not - these are the typical ebbs and flows.

ADVICE FOR LAW STUDENTS

(Sorry for the reformatted repost.)

1:56 isn't totally on the mark. Firms always tell you that you're fine if you don't do anything that puts you into the summer-associate-lore category. But this is just not true (at least not always). While it is the general industry practice, all of us know colleagues who were totally screwed by their summer firm's financial situation or politics. Those firms will almost invariably treat you like crap afterwards and tell you it was your fault, that your work sucked, that you have a terrible personality that doesn't fit with them, etc. It's harsh. They do that so they don't have to admit that they're not in tip-top shape (b/c if they did, it'd get posted on ATL).

I was a 2L summer at a branch office of an international BigLaw firm. That year, less than half the summers got offers. This may happen to you.

I know this sounds trite, but fear not, law students! If you summer at a big firm and don't get an offer, it'll suck. Landing your first job (if you still want to go BigLaw) will be harder than if you hadn't been a BigLaw summer in the first place, true. But you'll be fine.

What to do during the summer? Definitely save your money to create a nest egg to get you through your 3L year and through the bar exam. Make sure you come out of your summer with a kickass writing sample. That way you can show future employers that can produce excellent work product. And even if the firm treats you like crap and you get stabbed in the back by others, etc., still try to personally bond and maintain a connection with at least one partner who you can later use as a reference. All of this will help you.

If you end w/out an offer, you'll have to take major proactive steps immediately afterwards. Go to as many networking events as you can. Secure unpaid internships during your 3L year to put more quality legal experience on your resume and maybe meet more people who can make calls for you and vouch for you. If you don't show your next prospective employer that you rock and that you stand out compared to other 3Ls (and, frankly, that it was really the prior firm that screwed you and not you who screwed up), it's going to be tough--much tougher if you are wondering how you are going to pay your next rent check.

But fear not, we all make out fine. It will be a small bump in your path to lawyerdom, but you'll be hardened and more experienced for weathering the storm.

Good luck!

I'd say you have a good shot at a v100 in NYC. However, you're not in SDNY, Del., N.D.Ill, etc., so you'll need to highlight whatever chapter 11 exposure you get during the clerkship.

4L, didn't get offer from my Fortune 10 in-house SA, haven't had an interview since January. Just wait until all you kids realize 85% of the jobs out there will start you at under $50k with no benefits. Douches.

2:52 has great advice.

My first OCI was on 9/11/01. All the firms hired as if we weren't all worried about a downturn because they had to get offers out before we had a clear idea of how bad things were going to get. During our first day orientation/BS, the hiring partner told us not to worry, they had not over-hired. Meanwhile, their big rival across town came in and told everyone to work their butts off. Both firms ended up only hiring 70% of their summer class.

If you are at a T14 school and you don't royally screw up, you'll probably be fine. I would work my butt off regardless. But remember, the social politics play a huge role in the decision making process as well. You have to play both games well.

I came away feeling as if those people that split their summer had an advantage.

3:03 - 1) pro bono is just as substantive, if not more, than a lot of paying work. 2) nothing a SA does is "financially productive." It's more important to be enthusiastic. Say yes to pro bono to avoid looking like a jerk-off before you even arrive.

I hear Spitzer may be starting up his own firm...but I think the doors will only swing open for those SA females between 6 and 7 diamond rating...godspeed to the rest of you

I even got an email from Career Services about choosing practice areas carefully.

Like, you should make a major career decision based on a short term economic outlook!

How is it that all my classmates are so concerned about the job they'll have one year out of law school when they all claim to be in it for a long legal career?

Anyway, who cares about paying off student loans when inflation will make what we paid for tuition comparable to tomorrow's cup of coffee?

I'm a 3L who switched firms this past OCI season. I've got an offer at a V30, but because I've never worked for them, I'm a little nervous about my future. Feel like if I'd stayed at my 2L firm I'd feel a little more secure. Here is the part where everyone tells me I'll be fine.

Wow, it's getting hard to tell the sarcastic comments from the ones with true dread.

I'm no BigLaw partner, but I think this worrying is all for nothing.

1Ls - by the time you interview for 2L jobs, firms should have a good idea of their (minimum) needs two years down the line. Jobs may be harder to get, but since you don't need 15 offers anyway, this isn't a big deal. By hiring fewer SA, they don't need to reduce the post-SA offer rate.

2Ls - firms probably had an idea about the depth of the crisis by the time they *completed* recruiting. Chances are, they scaled back on offering SA positions toward the end. Perhaps they'll be a skew toward schools that had early OCIs in your summer classes. However, the future recruiting hit from hiring too many summers and then not giving them offers is too much. Especially when you consider that the markets might be rolling again by sometime in your first year as an associate.

3Ls starting in fall - probably have the second-most to worry about. Firms could rescind offers and make you pay back all the bar and barbri expenses. Firms need useless first year associates the least right now. However, since rescission is pretty drastic, they may just put incoming first years in litigation or bankruptcy for the time being. Prognosis: don't sweat it.

3Ls with clerkships - you've got a good upside. You're adding value to yourself and taking away from the firm's overhead while they are going through a tough time. When you come back, you'll have skills that they didn't have to pay for and they got to defer paying you until the markets started to stabilize/recover. Best position!

Current Associates - you're screwed. While firms would take a big hit from no-offering summers (3L to 1L - "don't apply to my firm man, they didn't give many offers"), the hit from laying off attorneys is much less, especially since they have many more ways to spin it. Also, since you're probably going to leave soon anyway, they may just want to accelerate that. You are high overhead that is just sitting around, without much promise of future revenue (especially if you leave voluntarily down the line). I'd be scared sh**less.

So there you have it. Chill out 2Ls.

My firm got an overyield of summers twice as many as last year. A partner on the hiring committee told me that it will be tough for all of the summers to get offers and he expects a significant portion to not get offers. Historically we are at or near 100 percent, but I would not be surprised at less than 75 percent.

I think summer associates should focus on litigation and bankruptcy and avoid transactional practices that are slower.

Well, that is encouraging.

Granted Im not in those districts, but I am in a big market that sees its fair share of Chapter 11 cases.

Thanks for your opinion.

Do you have any advice on any NYC firms that I should target? I don't know anything about NYC.

2:27 - I like your math and made the same choice.

Boy am I glad I took the $$ over the name!! I'll be able to pay my loans no matter where I work.

NY to REALITY!!

Clerkship now, job in a vault 100 firm after it's completed and recently spoke with someone there who said "can you quit and come work for us now?" Do I have anything to worry about?

"Boy am I glad I took the $$ over the name!! I'll be able to pay my loans no matter where I work."

People take out loans for law school now?

2:15 and 3:15 here

As if I already haven't said enough, let me add: don't worry if you do have to face that speed bump. You'll end up where you (thought) wanted to be. Then you can say to yourself after taking a 20-minute-long ATL break, as I just did: back to billing my 250 for the month.

I would just send resumes and cover letters to firms in the cities you're interested in. And if you haven't heard anything after a few weeks, just follow up. Glad to hear you're getting chapter 11 exposure.

3:26, what firm? Or range? I want to make sure it's not mine ...

Don't worry 2Ls, if Obama wins, he'll give you free healthcare. food, shelter and a good government job! You won't need big law and will live happily ever after! (though you will have to stand in line for hours for everything from bread to gasoline)

USA to COMMUNISM IN '08!

Clark, are you a bankruptcy lawyer? Since you seem pretty savvy when it comes to this. When should I send out resumes and cover letters? This coming December? Next Jan,? Now?

Thanks again

@ 3:26

Which firm?

Lat, how do you know 2L's are screwed? I think the title of this thread is completely irresponsible. If you hear something concrete, then fine. But do you realize what kind of panic you're causing?

The firms should also be trying to ease the panic by clarifying their position with respect to full time offers at the end of the summer.

3:35 - yeah, sadly I don't have a trust fund

3:26 here
My firm range is V25-45 in Texas

S&C has 148 summers coming this year. Cravath has 165.

See http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=743559&mc=104&forum_id=2#9466461

3:26

Does your firm plan on telling them before they ding them?
I can't imagine a firm saying "enjoy 3L OCI!" but a few hints to the summers is only fair.

Additional Q to the board: how will your firm determine whom to ding?
School? Practice Area? Quality of sexual favors?
I also look forward to the firms that ding people for interviewing elsewhere for "lack of dedication" when the summer is smart enough to schedule an interview elsewhere. Have fun keeping those interviews secret!

Ah, so sad for all you poor big law wannabes. Think of it as a gift from God and do something useful with your degrees and lives.

"3:35 - yeah, sadly I don't have a trust fund"

Oh. Um, that sucks. Good luck with those loan things.

I'm a current bankr. clerk. Send out resumes soon after you start. I waited a little longer, but it couldn't hurt to start earlier.

Clark, if I may ask, have you secured employment? BigFirm? Mid-firm? City/state?

Not to get too personal, but what state are you in? School rank? Class rank?

As stated, Im just kinda curious and seeing what I should expect when the time comes to apply.

If I start in September, should I send out in Dec? Did you just cold mail the resume and coverletter?

What about incoming first years at top firms...who didn't summer with them? Afraid or secure in that they're yet to prove themsevles unworthy?

I don't want to out myself, but I've landed employment in the city I wanted with a market salary and clerkship bonus.

I would send a resume, coverletter and transcript and send it before December. Some firms hire clerks at the same time they hire 3Ls.

I wouldn't be too concerned. Most partners at top firms I have spoken to about recruiting tell me that they learned their lesson during the last downturn when they underrecruited, which left them high and dry when things started to pick up. They are very aware of the fact that a highly trained 2d year in 2011 will be worth more than the cost of an underutilized 1st year in 2010. S&C, DPW, STB, Cleary... given their druthers these firms would prefer not to have to rely extensively on the lateral market. I would be worried about firms that have traditionally hired large #s of lats, or firms that have overinvested in doomed practice areas.

I completely agree with 3:24

Clark: Fair enough.

As compared to my stats. top 20, slighlty below median, bankruptcy clerk in big southern city, chapter 11 exposure...how much better is your resume than mine? Should I be shooting for market pay in the big markets (TX, NYC, Ill. L.A.) with the bigfirms? Or should I be looking elsewhere?

As stated, Im just trying to give myself realistic expectations.

The recession is illusory, and a figment on liberal/democrat imaginations. Unless you were going to structured finance shop -- you are fine. This is hardly comparable to 2001 -- and litigation is going way up. Transactional work will be booming by 2009. If you are a summer associate -- just don't be stupid (like any other year). Do pro bono if you have to. Don't drink much at firm events (one drink). Sleep with NO ONE at firm. Go back and enjoy law firm.

My firm is expecting a record number of summer associates (due to someone in recruiting who over-extended offers). So many in fact, that it is not clear how we are going to keep them all busy. Rumor has it that at the end of the summer, the firm may be offering year-long externships to some summers (i.e. instead of coming back in fall of 2009 they would come back in fall of 2010 and in 2009 they can go work at inmotion or some other place focusing on pro-bono in exchange for some package which may or may not include payment of the student's loans).

In light of this crappy economy, would lower 2L grades be sufficient to get no-offered or would you also have to do crappy work?

What if you did great work with those lower 2L grades?

Maybe this is why 70% of ATL readers support legalizing prostitution...I suppose you 2L's need a contingency plan for when you are no offered!

4:41

What school and what degree of lower grades? It matters a lot.

What about firms that have laid off associates like CWT and Thatcher? Would they no-offer or soft-offer summers and further destroy their reputation among law students? Is it possible that they may bite the bullet and extend 100% offers to at least try to fix their image or are they more likely to no-offer since they apparently don't have enough work to go around?

Also, what practices areas other than Litigation and Bankruptcy are hot right now?

CWT has a (positive) reputation among law students?

And TPW is going outa business.

No problem - I was just as concerned as you are before I began my clerkship.

Similar resume, but I'm at a more chapter 11-focused court.

You should shoot for all those targets - they are realistic for you, especially in this market. Your clerkship will give your gpa a boost in the eyes of firms, but you still have one set of finals to better it. I'm not saying your gpa will hold you back at all, just that a higher one is always better.

Also, where are you taking the bar? If you know you want NYC, it couldn't hurt to take the NY bar even if your clerkship is in, say, Atlanta.

Clark: glad to know Im not the only one feeling like a fish out of water.

I am taking the bar in July (TX), and if I get bored enough in my clerkship, then I will study for the NYbar. I never thought that I would ever consider NYC, but in terms of bankruptcy...it is Mecca.

Good to know it will give my GPA a boost! Im very concerned about that.

You have helped shape my expectations, and now I know what to shoot for.

4:48: I wasn't saying that CWT had a good reputation to begin with. I was simply asking if they would further damag their already poor rep among law students by no-offering or soft-offering their summers.

I'm a 2L at PENN law in Happy Valley. What do you guys think my chances are of grabbing a V10 job, preferably in IP lit or patent prosecution, but maybe also in bet-the-company litigation?

In Beasley v. Cadwalader a florida appeals court held that Cadwalader had no goodwill.

4:36 - what firm?

We are all so very fucked. I have 100k in student loans, and turned down offers in other jurisdictions to work in biglaw NYC. If my firm no-offers me, I am 100% completely screwed, and may literally end up on the street.

Can I e-mail my firm and ask them what to expect?

4:42 (Maybe this is why 70% of ATL readers support legalizing prostitution...I suppose you 2L's need a contingency plan for when you are no offered!)...

law students are ugly.

I admit that the last 2 months of weak economics, and troubles in most sectors had me worried. I'm slated to complete my clerkship and join a large law firm, (which I did not summer at) and worried they would pull my offer. I've made it a point to stay in contact with them over the last few months and have been reassured by their recent lateral hires and the fact that they still have much work. However, depending on the economic climate 5 months from now, I may not take as much of a vacation break between finishing my clerkship and starting my associate job.

When you summer, be sure to give it 150%. Don't turn down assignments because you need to run off at 5:00pm to go to the firm sposored happy hour, or because you have dinner plans, theater tickets, etc (unless the plans are with a partner). Don't roll in at 10:30am, hungover and useless, show up by 9:00am every day. Ask for work, OFTEN, do it well, ask questions, get feedback, meet and work with as many partners as you can. I doubt big firms will simply no-offer large numbers of summers, but, standing out as a slacker may get you cut this year where it may not have in a different market. The smart summers will work all the harder to be sure they secure a place.

1:54: "I'm top 20 percent, T14, but my Vault-10 firm just revoked my 2L summer offer. WHAT AM I GOING TO DO???"

Finally your firm realized that Georgetown is overrated.

This entire post is really just panic for panic's sake. Top firms are not going to simply no-offer anyone without some basis for doing so. While some areas may be slow for a time, bankruptcy and litigation will be very busy, and 1st and 2nd years will be needed to help with discovery (meaning, doc review) and other mundane tasks. You may find yourself working in practice groups that aren't your first choice, but, you will not find yourself no-offered, so, stop all the worrying.

Less Woried Now: What are you planning on having for dinner tonight? Or are you skipping dinner entirely because you had a big panini for a late lunch? On a related note, what is your favorite outfit?

Hey 5:35, did you not see the title of this thread? We are all SCREWED! Lat doesn't just make shit up. If he says we're screwed, I believe him.

Valedictorian at Yale here, offer just revoked at Strook. Working an unpaid internship at 1-800-LAWKING this summer.

Plan accordingly.

Focus on the silver lining here people. Say large numbers of SAs get no-offered, if you work your ass off enough to get an offer your class will be smaller. This will give you a comparatively better shot at partner down the line after the economy picks back up. Think of this as a chance to rise above and earn your spot.
Why is everyone so freaking risk averse?

3:24 seems to be the only coherent logic on the 2L situation. This isn't well-wishing--it's simple rationality. Why would these firms overhire for a summer they most likely knew would not yield much work.

2L summers, check your summer class size and compare it against what your firm projected to be their summer class on their 2008 NALP forms. I will be at a V25 that took approx. 30% less summers than previously projected. I assume they knew what was about to go down.

Penn 2L @ 5:05,
Imagine your chances of grabbing a V10 job would improve if you knew which school you attended. "Penn" is in Phila, not Happy Valley - that would be Penn State. And since we're on the subject, it was and still is "Penn", not "UPenn".

Penn Grad-- don't respond to idiots like that. Obvi the dude was trying to ruffle feathers and that's all. We all understand Penn's inferiority complex when compared to Penn State.

Think I'm screwed if my firm underhired SAs last summer but made WAY too many offers to SAs for this upcoming summer? It's a V100 firm.

6:10. Can you provide us with a link to the NALP site you speak of? I see that they provide info on last summer, but nothing for 2008.

Here you go, 6:29

http://www.nalpdirectory.com

Here you go, 6:29

http://www.nalpdirectory.com

Here you go, 6:29 - knock yourself out.
www.nalpdirectory.com

That is 2007 info you retard.

@6:05 - if you haven't figured out by now that lawyers (and lawyers in training) are the world's second-most risk-averse people (shortly behind actuarians), you should get on that train, like, now. We spot risk for a living and figure out ways to avoid it. Why is this a surprise?

6:57 - unless you manage to get current NALP forms from OCI or firm itself (not likely), you have to wait until NALP updates its website. So who's the retard? At least I didn't ridicule 6:29's failure to know that NALP forms get updated in Jan/Feb of each year so 2008 info won't be available for a while longer.

Lat to Flamebait

Anyone have any reccomendations on how to go about investigating the status of or asking the firm about potential offer revocations or layoffs? It seems to be too touchy a subject to enter...

2L's, the key is to dress to impress the partners. Solid navy Brioni bespoke suits, leather-bottomed shoes, 2 Patek Philippe watches, one to match black shoes, one to match brown, etc. are a good start. The key, though, is your business cards - Cilian Rail will not cut it if you want to snag that full-time offer, but I would recommend a subtle, off-white card of impressive thickness.

WRONG! The key is to get into a V5, where you don't need to worry about this no-offer nonsense.

7:33 - just relax. As long as you stick with a reasonably busy practice area (lit, bank.) you will be fine. Work hard and avoid the drama that sinks summer associates. Offers will remain at the 95-100% rate given the firms' ability to anticipate and conform to economic conditions. I would NOT contact your firm - it is a "touchy" subject and should be avoided.

Everyone needs to relax - this post is ridiculous and was meant to engender panic.

This thread has a lot of baseless speculation. Are there any partners or hiring partners here that can give real (anonymous) information about the 2L's chances this summer and the 1L's chances of getting offers next summer?

"If you're going anywhere from Skadden to Kirkland, you probably don't have anything to worry about. These firms are well run and have broad practice areas that permit them to shift resources to react to market demand. That being said, I still recommend 2Ls act like their summer associateship is a job, and not treat it (like I've seen many summers do) like a summer camp.

Posted by: V10 Summer Committee Member | March 12, 2008 01:55 PM "

While not denying that the economy has inspired some nervousness among students, I think this crisis is pretty oversold. Firms are still hiring, and many of my friends have Biglaw summer offers. Still, I'm certainly going to work my tail off at my V25 job.

Since when do UVA'ers work?

Here here! and those suckers with jobs will be the ones left holding the bag! that no offer's not looking so bad after all

----------------------------------------

Don't worry 2Ls, if Obama wins, he'll give you free healthcare. food, shelter and a good government job! You won't need big law and will live happily ever after! (though you will have to stand in line for hours for everything from bread to gasoline)

USA to COMMUNISM IN '08!

Dear 2Ls,

You have one chance and only one chance of making it through the summer.

1) be attractive
2) sex key partner

Godspeed

Love the V10 commenters. Yeah, enormous, heavily associate-leveraged NYC offices that generate half their business from banks and PE shops, the worst hit sector of the economy, will never lay people off or no-offer summers. Skadden to fire one of its 500 due diligence monkeys? No way. They’ll bring in 6 diamond whores to keep the 1st years entertained as deal flow slows to a crawl.

People, please. I'm the 182nd poster to this thread. Lat knows these sorts of "the sky is falling" threads will prompt thousands of hits (I'd venture that at least 85% of all incoming summers checked this thread at least 5 times yesterday).

This isn't much different than Republican candidates always alluding to the dangers facing the nation or the news media sensationalizing every little anxiety inducing (be it economic, terrorist, environmental, racial, etc.) happening in the world. Granted, there are such threats and there are such happenings, just as many firms are facing some gloomy financial times. But they are "gloomy" in contrast to last year, which was yet another record breaking year for growth and partner profits at every decent firm, as was every year the past two decades (excepting the dot-com and early 90's downturns).

The question is (not just incoming summers, but all associates): How did your firm handle the previous two downturns? Yes, this downturn is hurting many firms' biggest clients in ways the dot-com downturn did not. But any decent firm has learned from the last two downturns - and has seen the writing on the wall for sometime now regarding the current situation. At many top firms, partners will need to resign themselves to zero increases in profits for 08'; worst case (or at firms or in practice groups hit hardest by this downturn), partners might see a 10% decrease for 08'. In a time when millions of people are losing their jobs and homes, many partners face the prospect of seeing their PPP's drop from $1-2 million to...gasp...$900k-$1.8 million. The sky is not falling.

As a few sane commenters have already noted, you incoming summers simply need to do good work, be friendly and don't do anything remotely stupid. But that's the advice in a booming economy as well. When the "no-offer factories 2008" thread appears this fall, you can be sure that those firms had either (i) serioius financial problems all along, or (ii) despite decent financials, has an especially greedy and unscrupulous partnership culture. In either case, that's not the sort of firm one should want to invest years of one's life anyway.

lou m, for the most part, I'd have to agree with your comments above. I gather you're in Chicago.

However, what counts as a "decent" firm, especially in this market, is hard to define. Summers/associates at Kirkland, Sidley, Winston, MB, Jenner and Katten and at the non-Chicago elites like Skadden, Latham and Paul Hastings should be just fine. But at many other firms (at least in their Chi offices), which in a good economy are considered plenty "decent," it might be harder to weather the storm.

hey, 10:11, did you describe Paul Hastings as elite? hahahahahahaha

If I was a summer at MB I would be scared out of my mind for other very legitimate reasons.

Jenner just scares their partners.

11:09, are you referring to incoming first year associates at MB?

11:09 is probably referring to the now-two poor mergers, the resulting firm culture civil war from the first merger, the mass partner departures, the lawsuits, etc.

Look around the site, there's a lot on MB and none of it is positive.

2Ls, you're going to have to man up and bend over before the senior partners if you want to get an offer.

If you want to succeed in the real world, you're going to have to get used to taking it up the ass.

Man, if I were a 2L, I would be crapping my pants right now. Things are getting ugly.

WilmerHale is hiring fewer summers this time - 50 instead of 70 - I hope that means they will be giving offers to all.

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

Here have some sanity - All to 190K!

Assuming I have an offer at the end of my summer, should I consider a (good) clerkship? What are the chances of my offer being rescinded if the economy continues to tank?

11:24 --

seconded

God help us all.

I am a junior associate in a nonlitigation practice at a V50 -- things are indeed slow. It's a pain in the ass trying to chase down work just so that I can barely make my hours. It's always a mystery to me why the firm keeps hiring a jillion summers when WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH WORK. I hate biglaw.