Featured Job Survey: Bar Stipend Studies
Over the past few months, we’ve devoted several of our ATL / Lateral Link survey posts to compensation issues like base salaries, bonus amounts, and clerkship bonuses. But we’ve received quite a few requests to do another survey or open thread on another compensation issue: starting bonuses and stipends.
Associates at four New York firms (anonymized) have recently e-mailed the same general question:
Next year top law firms in New York, as well as those around the country (Chicago, Los Angeles, etc.), will pay their incoming associates $160,000 plus a $10,000 STARTING BONUS. [My v5 firm], on the other hand, will pay incoming associates $160,000 with a $10,000 SALARY ADVANCE. Simply put, I will be going on a bar trip this summer with money I loaned myself from my first year salary! I find this very strange considering that [my firm] considers itself to be the cream of the crop in New York in terms of pay.
i’m wondering if you can post a thread on firms giving incoming associates stipends for the summer. i’m at a v5 nyc firm and just learned that they don’t offer a summer stipend but do allow an advance (up to 12k, i believe). some friends i know at peer firms mentioned that they’ll be receiving stipends (10k from what i hear) as opposed to advances. any assistance in shedding some light on this would be greatly appreciated. thanks.
I read your blog and I have a suggestion for a thread - the types of loan/stipend firms give to cover studying for the bar. I’ve heard that some firms give out-right cash bonuses, whereas others (including my Vault Top 5 firm) give a no-interest loan that you must then repay over your first year. Since these amounts are usually around $10,000, it can make a not insignificant difference in first year compensation.
Thought you might want to run a story on advances/stipends offered by law firms for incoming associates. I’m an incoming associate at [big prestigious firm], and was frustrated when I heard that most other top law firms pay a stipend of $10,000 to their associates for the summer of the bar, while [big prestigious firm] is offering only a “$3,000 signing bonus” and a 7k loan, which will be deducted from our first 6 months of salary.I know several other incoming associates who are surprised to see [big prestigious firm] below market, but are afraid to communicate this to the firm.
About a year ago, when ATL previously posted an open thread on the subject, commenters suggested that firms in New York were more likely than non-NY firms to pay stub bonuses (first year bonuses pro-rated for the number of months worked), which made up for the lack of a signing bonus. But is that true today?
Today’s ATL / Lateral Link survey will probe your firm’s policy on signing bonuses and salary advances. Feel free to speak up in the comments, too. Or send us information by email. If we get enough responses, we’ll put together a table like the clerkship, maternity, and paternity leave tables (each of which will be updated this weekend, by the way, so feel free to send tips about those as well).
Update: This survey is now closed. Click here for the results.
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Justin Bernold is a Director at Lateral Link, the sponsor of this survey.
(0) Comments
Comments
first
Flawed survey design.
"Simply put, I will be going on a bar trip this summer with money I loaned myself from my first year salary! I find this very strange considering that [my firm] considers itself to be the cream of the crop in New York in terms of pay."
Wow! I'll bet the firm doesn't even let you use its travel agency or comp you at the Four Seasons until AFTER you start! What an injustice!
This is actually interesting news. My V50 pays a $15k stipend in addition to bar expenses.
This is not the market for incoming associates to be complaining about anything.
survey seems flawed
My V25 firm also gives a $15k stipend, including bar expenses.
2:12
Exactly, right.
I'm a few years removed from this, but as I recall from conversations with friends at other firms at the time, it all came out in the wash.
The firms that offer an outright cash payment before you start tend not to pay any stub bonus in December, while the firms that offer bar advances (which had to be paid back) tend to pay a stub bonus later.
Oh yeah, and I agree with the other poster(s) - not the market to be complaining about this!
What about clerks who are coming in as (technically) second-year associates? I took the bar last summer--any chance a firm will give me the $10000 stipend now? Or is that considered part of the $50000 clerkship bonus?
my firm (in the elite 8 of kash's bracket!) gave stub bonus - a few thousand, i can't remember how much - and a 10,000 salary advance. doesn't exactly wash out though, if you took the full $10,000, bc i don't think the stub bonus was anywhere near that much.
Paying for a trip with your own salary, simply distributed to you before you've even worked a day at said firm beyond worthless summer work? How dare they!
Once again, could the graphic be arranged by the $, not the % side? It's meaningless otherwise. It's much better to see the $ arranged lowest to highest.
Every single ATL graph is made in this meaningless and unreadable format. Please, please fix.
The survey is flawed and I didn't answer, but my V50 firm in Chicago pays a stipend of 9K, plus bar exam and BarBri fees, and an extra 7K if you do a Pili fellowship.
Even if they paid nothing, an interest-free loan from the firm is better than taking a bar loan. Lots of people who don't have jobs lined up are putting BarBri on their credit cards and taking bar loans to get through the summer. If I wasn't getting the stipend from the firm but could borrow interest-free I would still gladly take it.
Legacy Dewey gave a $10K advance plus paid all bar-related expenses. Paying back that $10K this year has kind of sucked. (It's about $400 a paycheck).
my firm (v60) in NY gives 10k advance, pays bar review fees, and pays up to $6,000 in moving expenses (including finders fee for apartments which can be almost the whole $6,000).
id like to have a stipend, not an advance, but who cares, theyre still hooking up close to 10 grand in addition tot eh advance.
Here's a question - I'm a member of a bar and I'm moving to a new state and need to take that state's bar. I'm applying for jobs at medium and large firms in the new state. When negotiating bar prep expenses, can I ask for a bar stipend? Is that normally done?
If it makes a difference, I'm currently in government so I had to foot the bill myself the first time around and I currently earn peanuts.
Thanks
Questions are impossible to answer -- my firm covers the cost of Bar/Bri and the exam (not some flat amount), gives a salary advance pre-tax (so $15,000 but really works out to $8000) and pays a stub bonus that's same as the class ahead just pro-rated based on your start date (again, not some flat amount). Plus moving costs.
Sorry 2:29, but the charts that are generated in real-time just can't be set up that way yet. The software is being upgraded to do it, but we're just not there yet.
I'm glad ATL is addressing this topic. In the Bay Area, I know at least one firm pays $17,500 as a bar stipend (and also pays a $3000ish stub bonus) while others only do reimbursement for bar prep/fees and a $10,000 advance (and similar stub bonus). Even when taxes are factored in, there's a $6000 difference.
What firm in the bay area pays 17.5? that's ridiculous
What numbers are these? S&C has been known to pay $25,000 in bar stipends. I guess that's what separates first rank from mediocre law firms.
Whats a stub bonus?
Does anyone else find it humorous that this first-year is complaining about a 10,000 advance of his 160,000/year salary, which he admits will be used to travel the world?
Ahhhh, such a hard life.
My midsize Chi firm pays a 12K stipend in addition to bar exam fees. If you bail before you finish your second year, you have to pay the 12 grand back.
I negotiated for a higher stipend. They said no one had ever asked...so I asked for another $1000; should have asked for more!
DC firm- $7,000 bar stipend to incoming associates or clerks that clerked right out of law school
"What numbers are these? S&C has been known to pay $25,000 in bar stipends. I guess that's what separates first rank from mediocre law firms."
News to us.
2:48, the firm is WSGR
2:58 - Are you in NYC? How did you go about doing that?
Hogan & Hartson DC: $3000 bar stipend plus bar expenses. I've heard other firms in DC pay a lot more, like $15k.
As far as I know, Irell pays a ~$15,000 stipend (5 weeks salary) plus a stub bonus. It also has a lockstep bonus that meets or beats NY market. Pretty hard to beat.
Texas firms pay $10k signing bonus plus bar/moving expenses.
And, there's no state income taxes.
10K bonus (not advance) + all bar (and bar review) costs covered + moving + housing trip + ...
Thelen does BARBRI, PMBR, bar expenses, and a 10K advance.
Ha Ha. But Thelen's 10K has to last until January!!
V20 / D.C.: $7K advance, BarBri, PMBR
In Vegas you get a couple of grand for relocation, paid bar expenses, and paid barbri.
Big difference is that you start work immediately after graduation as a "law clerk". You get paid full salary but only work half time with the other half to be spent studying for the bar.
You also get the two weeks off before the bar (paid).
this thread is useless without names--without more information transparency, it's impossible for LAT to start pressuring firms on starting bonuses / stipends, etc. These things may seem small, but for the many law students looking ot only spend 2-3 yrs in BigLaw, it can make a difference.
What we need is a V50 chart, with stipend, bar expense, relocation, year-end bonus information. Look at what salary transparency did for the NY market rate (not to mention the rate LA/SF/DC etc). That only works if we name names.
Gibson pays $13,333 summer stipend + bar exam costs and barbri + a stub bonus. SWEET!
P.S. Not all Texas firms pay a $10,000 signing bonus. Some pay 2 weeks of your salary, some pay only 1 week of your salary.
V20 firm in DC; $10,000 stipend (that is taxed as a bonus); firm pays all bar fees (perhaps even including hotel, but I haven't asked yet); firm pays all bar review fees (BarBri and PMBR); firm pays all moving costs; firm pays for airline ticket to get to DC.
I am in no way complaining -- but I know that Latham pays a bigger stipend ($13,000 I think).
Weil pays bar/moving expenses and provides an advance of up to 10K. Suprising that it hasn't matched competitors, especially in NY market. Could be because Weil pays a stub year bonus of a pro-rated 1st year bonus or $11K.
3:02,
Guess you didn't bother negotiating with the hiring partner in S&C.
First rule of law firm life, never take the first offer. Always counter-offer.
Cooley Godward pays a stipend of 6 weeks prorated salary (~$18.5k) plus all bar and moving expenses. I think this is the best deal out there.
Jenner & Block (Chicago) gives a 13K stipend for the summer, plus reimbursing bar expenses (BarBri, MPRE, MPRE Prep, and PMBR fees). Plus, moving expenses are covered. BUT, our health insurance, etc. kicks in in June, so any premiums for those are deducted from the 13K stipend for June-August.
3:10 pm: Hogan & Hartson (DC) paid a $4,500 summer stipend last year plus bar expenses. I'd be very surprised if they reduced the stipend. Also DC office recently upped their clerkship bonus to $50k; clerks holding offers should officially get the news in a few weeks.
is Quinn Emmanuel still giving $25k signing bonuses to electrical engineers?
Fried Frank NY: 3000 transition bonus (before tax), all bar related expenses and up to 10K advance.
MB Chicago
10k stipend, not a salary advance.
all bar fees including barbri, pmbr, and app fee.
No stub bonus?
2:25 --
It depends on the firm, so you just have to ask. Some firms will give you a reimbursement bar stipend if you accept with them after you have already taken the bar (e.g., during your clerkship). According to a comment here (http://lawclerkaddict.blogspot.com/2007/05/vault-100-clerkship-salary-bonus-chart.html), for example, Paul Hastings provides such a reimbursement, whereas Gibson does not.
"The firms that offer an outright cash payment before you start tend not to pay any stub bonus in December, while the firms that offer bar advances (which had to be paid back) tend to pay a stub bonus later."
Some firms in LA are paying both. Quinn for example gave a 10k bar stipend AND a stub bonus to the class of 2007.
i thought all new york firms just pay your expenses and give a salary advance whereas firms in other cities tend to give stipends. stipend is only good if its going to actually be more than your expenses so you make out in the end.
Does anyone know about bonuses for incoming patent associates who have already taken the patent bar?
My firm gave one month's pay in June, covered all bar related fees and expenses, and gave a $10k stub bonus.
how are bar expenses defined? Are talking bar/bri class + fees for the bar or something different?
Also, which firms reimburse moving costs vs. just provided a moving stipend?
It's true that Cooley gives 18.5k plus all bar and moving expenses, which is awesome. No, they don't pay stub bonuses- but frankly I'd rather have the money now.
Bar expenses mean a bar course (Barbri, in CA around 3700) and all bar admissions fees (in CA, over 1000).
Will any of those firms provide the stipend even if you are going to do a year long judicial clerkship (presuming you have already agreed to work for them afterwards)?
Yep, Cooley Godward takes it with 6 weeks' salary plus all bar expenses plus moving expenses.
$12,000 stipend
All bar courses and admission fees
Moving expenses
Does anyone know what Skadden pays?
The second question is two questions, which invalidates the survey. You cannot mash up two questions into one. Make distinct questions so you now whether firms are paying signing bonuses in lieu of, or in addition to, other bonuses.
Pyllzberry SF pays $10k advance, covers all bar and bar study fees, and reimburses "reasonable moving expenses."
Skadden pays moving expenses.
Hughes Hubbard does BARBRI, PMBR, bar and moving expenses, and a 10K advance but no pro-rated bonus.
every other city BUT new yorks pretty much gives a stipend, not an advance. ny gives advance. i was hoping that since my firms HQ is in boston (but im working in the NY office) that id get a stipend but no luck. must do it differently by office.
Skadden pays reasonable moving expenses up to $4,000 which also includes the house hunting trip - not nearly enough for coast to coast moves. They give a $10,000 salary advance and no starting bonus.
K&E Chicago
- $10,000 Stipend (also a PILI Option)
- All bar course and admission fees
- Moving expenses (including a house hunting trip)
- No stub bonus (but our billing year starts in the fall, not Jan 1)
Personally I'd rather have a moving stipend than expenses cause then I'd just junk most of my stuff and get new things but aside from that I think we have a pretty good package.
As far as I know from talking to others the general rule is true. NY pays advances and then stub bonuses. Elsewhere you get a stipend but no stub.
count your lucky stars that you got a job. whiny little brats.
Or how about the cheap bastards just pay $190k, like that idiot at www.Philalawyer.net advocated? Seems about right in the current climate.
"Whiny little brats"?
Really? Tried this shit work lately?
Or how about the cheap bastards just pay $190k, like that idiot at www.Philalawyer.net advocated? Seems about right in the current climate.
"Whiny little brats"?
Really? Tried this shit work lately?
How about reimbursement for bar travel to NY for those working in a non-NY office of a NY firm? How many firms do that?
People are getting laid off and alot of other people are worried about losing their jobs and you are whining about your bar stipend. You are not summer associates any more. You have no leverage. They don't need you, you need them. Be happy you have a job and shut the F-ck up about your bar stipend!
How much/what does WilmerHale in DC give???
To my knowledge S&C gives you an option for a 7K advance (more if requested), pays ALL moving expenses (including 90 days storage), up to 3500 in broker's fees for finding aparment, covers the cost of airfare coming to NY (or gas if driving), will pay for airfare and 2 nights hotel in Albany for out of towners taking NY Bar.
No starting bonus though (bit suprising - as I know Cravath does and I'm sure still pays prorated year-end bonus).
Cadwalader gives you a full size stick (not prorated) so you can start shoving it up early if you want. It's called the stick bonus.
to those that don't understand markets and the law of supply and demand (@9:40, 8:10, et al), people are not suggesting/demanding more mone for bar fees, etc. Nor are they necessarily exhibiting a sense of entitlement. They are just trying to understand WHAT THE MARKET IS WILLING TO PAY. If people add accurate figures and information for various firms, future associates will get a better sense of what the demand is for their services, and how various firms offer (or don't offer) best-in-class compensation. Clearly the firms have the money and are willing to do it--nothing is stopping them from paying less...other than the fact that they clearly perceive some value in the new class(es) of associates. If there was a limitless supply of associates, as your comments would suggest, then firms wouldn't be so eager to match. We all sa what happened when best-in-class compensation and bonus structure were revealed on ATL--firms that weren't there either tried to match or acknowledge that there was a portion of the associate job market (the top portion) that they would not compete for.
Now, if LAT wants to continue to push the overall comp envelope, he should try and compile lists for additional benefits in top markets at particular firms. He already does this with things like maternity/parenthood leave; but why not do it for benefits that affect ALL starting associates, rather than those that make the choice to have a family?
9 hours and 12 minutes!
AKA the amount of time it took a thread about money in general to turn into a thread bashing on benefits for people with families!
(and yes, before anyone jumps down my throat I say that tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Still, kind of funny isn't it?
Does anyone know if Latham NY pays broker fees, or has a reduced fee arrangement with any brokers?
As a person who graduated from a top tier law school comfortably in the top 1/3 last year and has been looking for a job since God knows when may I please say that this complaint makes my skin crawl. I took out a bar loan and have to pay that back with interest. And I don't have any guaranteed income. The market is really bad, so when you are complaining about you lack of stipends and then later about your hours and how mean people are to you at your firm, remember that you have a job while the majority of us are fighting to stay alive in this market. Seriously, you spoiled brats need to shove it.
12:19 - I'm sorry you suck
how about broker's fees. that is the TRUE moving expense.
Brokers' fees? Aww you silly New Yorkers are so cute!
Skadden just pays a 10k advance and no bonus????????????????
What about bar fees? Does this apply to all offices or just NY?
I think the tipsters that wrote in are referring to S&C -- they pay $0 in bonus/stipend and allow for just a $7K advance which is then prorated out in the first year. Pretty weak.
12:19
Fristly, Learn how to write a decent resume and how to interview well. If you come across as a DB in interviews, we can't help that. Chances are you are saying something stupid in your interviews or your resume sucks (perhaps in the way you wrote it or cos you never did anything more than the minimum you had to).
Secondly, don't expect us all to work in crappy conditions just cos you don't have work - that is what drives everything down to the lowest level. Instead, if you actually think about it, by demanding lower hours etc, we actually create the need for more lawyers - even ones like you.
If you just want 'a job' go to your local state public defenders office - they can always do with some help - and it will give you better legal experience than doc review.
LAT, don't let this issue die--create transparency into sign-on benefits! NYC to upfront stipends instead of loans!
The Skadden info applies to all offices as far as I know. They do pay bar fees and pay for BarBri, of course. 3k technology allowance too. But the "advance" does kind of suck if other firms are giving the money as a stipend that doesn't need to be repaid.
Lat can you compile a chart showing the policies for stipends, bar fees and moving expenses for the top firms? It's useful info for 2Ls to have.
Skadden gives a salary advance, but you get a pro-rated bonus at year end (same as class ahead of you, but pro-rated for your 3-4 months service). In the end, you make out fine, and get a bonus for doing absolutely nothing but training for 3-4 months.
Guys, don't sweat the +/- $5k. In three years half of you will wash out and will be desparate to break six figures.
Correct, 3:11. Irell does $15K stipend, $5K salary advance, bar expenses and move, and stub bonus that meets or beats NY.
Akin Gump NY is a $10,000 advance plus moving expenses. no stipend.
You should also do life insurance, medical insurance, dental/vision, etc.. I just received my benefits info packet from K&E and learned that if they manage to kill you, your people only get $25K.
Plus, they don't pay a dime of your dental or vision care.
If you kick the bucket at Katten, your folks get twice your salary, $320K for a first year associate.
Does anyone know anything about McElroy, Deutsch, Mulvaney & Carpenter?
Gee - what a tough life! Getting paid money to faff around over summer.
Try working in Australia where a graduate at the country's top firm won't earn more than 70K. No stipend.
You can start gasping...........now!
Gee - what a tough life! Getting paid money to faff around over summer.
Try working in Australia where a graduate at the country's top firm won't earn more than 70K. No stipend.
You can start gasping...........now!
Gee - what a tough life! Getting paid money to faff around over summer.
Try working in Australia where a graduate at the country's top firm won't earn more than 70K. No stipend.
You can start gasping...........now!