Hey Lat, clarify what the ABAJ doesn't--that "starting lawyer" means a newly qualified kid--i.e., one who has two years as a trainee in.

They are overpaid. They don't have to spend 3 years and 150k for law school in England.

fish and chips, mate.

Just to make clear that UK-based legal education is not up to par. Even the top schools there aren't even in the same league as those in the US. Requiring an undergraduate-type degree with fewer objective measures to screen applicants doesn't produce the same type of graduate pool. Unfortunately that means the barrier to entry (on a merit basis) at the highest level just isn't like it is here. Hard to justify paying those same associates the equivalent pay as in the US.

With the disparity between Biglaw and small shops why in the world doesn't BigLaw wise up and realize that their is NO ALTERNATIVE TO TAKING THE JOB! People who want BigLaw, and worked so hard to get in, will and in fact should be willing to put in a few years starting at a $100k "pittance". Even a single year makes a huge difference when you are a novice attorney and at a lesser salary perhaps firms wouldn't require 70 hour weeks and might be able to allocate resources towards associate grooming and retention. But this is ATL. So lets dump all over anyone who didn't go T-14 and scream that a first year should get a $190 base. As for competing for talent...does firm prestige....future earning potential...quality of life....location...practice areas mean NOTHING? Who can honestly say they contribute $200k worth of value to a firm their first year out...and if you can how are you smart enough to get into BigLaw in the first place...oh yeah I forgot...law and intelligence are often times like oil and water.

Yeah at the same time the purchasing power of $ (or pound) in London is not the same as in NYC. A decent apartment is almost twice as expensive, not to mention clothes (which sometimes are 3 times as expensive as in NYC). Thus, you gotta make more money otherwise you will live like a bum.

"Who can honestly say they contribute $200k worth of value to a firm their first year out...and if you can how are you smart enough to get into BigLaw in the first place...oh yeah I forgot...law and intelligence are often times like oil and water. " - 5:32(1)

Most first year associates can honestly say that their firm collected multiples more than $200k for work done by them.

5:47,

You're correct, assuming that all of their time gets billed out. But because it doesn't, you're nowhere near correct.

Of all the load of shite I read on this blog, this sentence takes the piss: "UK-based legal education is not up to par." Seriously.

Americans are so self centred, jingoistic, flag waving morons that you cannot objectively look at anything. In the US you pay through the nose to get a mickey mouse undergrad where you never really major in much, and only learn proper history, math etc which at undergrad. Overseas we learn US college level math, english etc during High School. My wife went back to do her undergrad in a T-20 undergrad and was shocked at the basic level that she was being thought.

2nd, when it comes to law school I am amazed at how patronizing Americans are to foreign students, given that (and this is a fact based on my experience and my foreign law schools research) foreign (common law based) students out perform US law students while on exchange. I was a Duke for my LL.M. and took only 2L and 3L classes, had a GPA of 4.1 and was in top 5% of each class I was in. During the first day all LL.M. students were taken into a hall and given a talk on how we "should not be too much in awe of the brilliance of the american legal system" and that we will "struggle, but to be expected." That year, 7 of the top 10 results in Cox's securities class were LL.M. students.

The UK, Irish, Australian and German Legal Education is as good if not better than what you pay stupid amounts of money for each year. You spend your first year being "taught" to question everything, in that fucked up socratees method and then wonder why you do bad in a subject when you take the opposite side of an argument from the professor who set the paper. Then you graduate and have this unbelievable opinion that somehow your opinion matters. Sit down, shut the fuck up and learn to actually LEARN from partners, Senior Associates and your clients. You are not special. You know nothing.

But still, feel smug in your biglaw job earning $160k while swimming in debt equal to that. I'm on $240k and debt free and up for partner, with a nice book of business. But if only I had the benefit of a US legal education.........

So you are saying most first years have over 1300 hours cut. You do realize that even if only 700 hours are collected on a first year collections will top 200k?

I would be interested in what kind of math you are using to say first years at BigLaw don't have 200k collected on their billiings.

smartguybrit, consider this: the steller performance of your fellow llm's at duke is explained quite simply by the fact that llm's at good US law schools are the very top law students from their respective countries!

if they were the best-performing law student at the HLS equivalent of say, Brazil, Israel, or Japan, how else would you expect them to perform against a bunch of lazy sandal-wearing "major-undecided" good-ol'-boys?!?!?!?!

"Americans are so self centred, jingoistic, flag waving morons that you cannot objectively look at anything."

Yeah, you sound really objective yourself. Not to mention a master of the English language.

6:09, I agree with you totally . However, you miss the point that the expectation was that we were less educated, inferior students which we and, from what my law school tells me and from the LL.M.s I keep in contact with, and future foreign classes have proven to be wrong.

Assuming par is a US education, i consider mine at least par.

smart(smug)guybrit

6.18, I live and work in the US, for US clients at a US law firm. If I hated the place I would leave. I love AMERICA, love the people. Doesn't mean you are not self centred, jingoistic and/or flag waving morons. I think the average american falls into that category. Here's a game for you to play, call 5 foreign friends (or better go onto a foreign blog) and ask this question: What two words would you use to describe Americans?

I can bet $500 that the majority will say Fat and Dumb.

But look, if I was to write what teh problems were with my country, fuck I'd be here all night. Ugly women would be top of my list though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcboOy3UtfU&feature=related

Skip crap about baguettes and go to 2.22 (specifically 3.02). Peoples of the World : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhaZvkhHV0M

These magic circle firms are fucking toilets. They can't even pay what their American competitors pay? What a fucking joke. *spits on those TTTs*

News like this makes me PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN (unlike Michelle Obama).

600, bow down to your American overlords. You're up for partner, have a book of business, and you're only making 240k? That is fucking laughable.

to 600:

everyone from a global super power raise your hand.

Me: *raises hand* you: *looks down meekly*

that's what i thought.

I like how that foreign douche capitalized "Senior Associate" but didn't capitalize "partner." Talk about self-important.

"But still, feel smug in your biglaw job earning $160k while swimming in debt equal to that. I'm on $240k and debt free and up for partner, with a nice book of business. But if only I had the benefit of a US legal education........."

Hmm...actually you did have a US legal education. See Duke Law, LL.M. Do you think your US firm would have hired you with only your TTT Euro crap credentials? However, seeing as how you seem to think that 50 periods go into an ellipse to end a sentence, I guess you didn't really master proper citation form; maybe you can have one of your junior associates fix that up for you.

6:00 - I'm a U.S. student, and I largely agree with your post. The U.S. system of legal education has some deep flaws, and I don't think that there's anything about the U.S. system that is particularly superior to what is done in other countries.

With that being said, I don't think it's surprising that you would outperform 2Ls and 3Ls as an LLM student. In fact, if you didn't, I'd be a little surprised.

It would be much better to look at how foreign students who have not yet completed their basic courses of study perform in U.S. law schools.

As a U.S. law student that got an English L.L.M. during my 2L year (and had the credits count towards my U.S. JD - yes, you can do that), I was actually shocked by the miserable state of UK legal education. I suppose that's why you need 2 years of apprenticeship out of law school before you can practice in the UK; it's unbelievably backward, like something out of a Charles Dickens novel. There's a global ranking of universities done every year (by the education department at a Chinese university actually), and 27 of the world's top 30 universities are American. It shows.

While I wouldn't agree with everything the Duke LLM had to say, he or she does have some very good points.
The apprenticeship model in the UK at least acknowledges the fact that the value added to the firm from newly graduated associates is pretty minimal from the start, regardless of how "smart" they are in terms of cranking out final exams and LSAT scores...and they are compensated accordingly, and the pay will increase as they learn practical skills that contribute in a major way to the firm.
The US model? Take essentially liberal arts majors who score well on the LSAT's, push them through three additional years of school, and tell them at these "top law schools" that these same schools "don't teach to the bar" and that they have to learn everything pertinent on the job anyway...oh wait, that's what they do in Great Britain, but in the UK they have to good sense to tell students that you only have to have the equivalent of a bachelor degree to get the "union card" to be able to be apprenticed and actually learn how to practice law...and they come out with minimal debt.
Remind me which system is supposed to be better? And which country has a city whose financial center has the most robust market in the world? (Hint: it ain't New York anymore)

America, FUCK YEAH!

I think the Duke LLM makes some good points. US private schools (undergrad and grad) do baby their students to a ridiculous degree. In Europe and Canada there is much less grade inflation and the attitude is pretty much sink or swim, so you can be pretty asured that the top students are really good and that very few people just scraped by without learning anything.

That said, I would guess the reason that the LLMs were at the top of the class is that no US student at Duke actually cares about their 2L or 3L grades. Many NY firms justify not hiring LLMs by saying that since they don't take 1L classes they are never subjected to a meaningful curve where all the students are actually trying.

I also did an exchange at one of the best law schools in Germany and can assure you the education there was nothing special either.

6:24: lose the P-envy. you all just hate on us because we're the biggest, baddest, richest kid on the block.
Jealousy is so last year!

Aside from this douche from Duke, REAL QUESTION:
Is that starting salary for people with LLBs or those with LLMs? I know the Brits have lower "trainee" starting salaries around 40k pounds, just curious as to whether an LLM was req'd for these positions

Also anyone know what the avg starting salary for a barrister is at a reputable chamber in one of the Inns in London?

I have a great job, but just not a ton of work floating around right now. I found a good site to spend some time on when you should be working - chillablehours.com - a lot of good content on there and something to do while stuck at your desk trying to look busy. It's a good thing to have these chillable hours since I don't have any billable hours!

624, sorry, but Americans manage to make the most money. If we really are fat and dumb, then I guess you toothless Brits are getting outsmarted by a bunch of fat idiots.

Americaaaa, f*** yeah!

the music video for your enjoyment
http://www.vidiac.com/video/249dab40-2c60-4ef3-a3c1-983b01235f7a.htm

7.12, sorry if I was a little modest about my situation. Please allow me to expand a little. My salary is $240 as I am a 5th year associate in a 2nd tier city office of a v50 firm. That is slightly above lockstep, but not much. I did not include bonus, but as last year my BoB was roughly $2.78mm (based on 2 large fund clients, one banking relationship and several investors intent on buying USA Inc.) i can assure you, somewhat modestly, that my bonus was more than your salary and bonus combined (unless you earn more than $350k a year, in which case sorry for the sneer). I am being made an income partner going into my 6th year, as a TTT firm wanted to make me equity. I turned them down, but got what I needed and an assurance that if my BoB stays similar or increases (which I expect) then I will be put up for equity in 2 years, or going into my 8th year. This at a firm with a (real) 10 year track to income and 5+ at least for equity plus a good size BoB. Fucking laugablle, you better believe I have a good laugh everyday.

7.22 (1), you are American for sure, so I excuse your ignorance, but LL.M. was not required for the job, but was for location of my choice. I will explain. As I was educated at one of the top univesotoes in Scotland I had free* education (pay nothing now, fuck all when you have a job). Armed with my Common Law education I was entitled to sit the New York bar without additional study. One of the perks of being a former owner of the country and all. New York is a fun place to visit and shop, but up its arse when it comes to cost. I decided to venture further a field and actually earn and save moeny as opposed to blow through it. The value of doing US College math at a young age, I understand cost of living. VA requires an LL.M. to take bar. By then the New office of said firm had already hired me, and I got them to pay for me to go to Duke. So I graduated with fuck all debt, which was paid of in 2 years, and some additional letters after my name. As the wise man siad, "you've got a lot of talent but you fail to see, you paid for yours, I got mine for free." So excuse me if I smile a little when I consider that I am 28, about to be made incom,e partner at a top firm, and have been doing top work for 5 years, all thanks to my sub par british education.

8.19, reread your post. "no US student at Duke actually cares about their 2L or 3L grades". I don't disagree with you, but can't you see how this weakens any argument that the US legal education is superior. Its just 1 year of basic courses that count. What, exactly are you paying the other $72-80k for? Firms in UK require 3 years of ed to make their decision. Not saying that any countries legal education is amazing, I am saying that the US system is not the be all and end all, and slamming the UK's system is pretty stupid (not that you did that).

And I don't mind being called a douche, of course I am, I'm a lawyer, always wanted to be a lawyer and i am doing alright for myself. That doesn't happen wthout being a dick.

10.32, you do realise that UK lawyers earn more than you do, and that the dollar is worth fuck all right now? See what I mean about education. Its called basic math. Go take some finance 101 and get back to me with a better argument. Stupid yank.

And yes, feel free to make comments about how I spelt things wrong, and have terrible grammar. That is why God invented spell check, paralegals and secretaries.

Really 10:46? My American biglaw salary will buy me more in NYC than your pathetic "biglaw" salary will buy you in London. Too bad your pathetic excuse for a firm can't afford you what an American firm would pay. Please read the article you've commented on. Our American firms are paying more in London than your POS London firms are paying.

You WILL bow down before your American overlords. We're the superpower, not you. Sorry.

10:53, again based on your comment (love the overlords thing, remind me how middle east is going for you-ie same way it went for us)you are an America, which means you are dumb. I work in US for US law firm. In money terms, London lawyers at big firms (both UK and US HQ'd) earn more than their NYC offices. Regardless of what is written here, I base it from horses mouth. Me, I get paid about a shit load of $$$ and live in a market that those $$$ are actually real money that I keep as opposed to$$$ that is pissed away in NY Rent or LDN rent. Comparing the 2 is silly, NYC is just as expensive in real temrs by income as London. And don't throw figures at me that LDN is in top 3 and NYC out of top 10. Bullshit. Confine it to Manhatten, not Queens, or other shit, and it is Top3, easy. My mate commutes from Kent, so COL not as high.

And why "biglaw" in quotes, they are typically the same fucking firms. Is there a special class on ignorance that you all get thought? Is that were they teach you about intelligent design as well?

1121 and 1126, you're just proving that Brits are barely literate. What part of US based firms in london pay almost 200k, and "Magic Circle" firms pay between 125K and 128K didn't you understand?

Stupid illeterate Brits.

Ok. This is ridiculous. First, the institutional requirements to be qualified as a UK attorney do not include the paying of U.S. undergrad or law school rates. You can walk into a UK law job with UK qualification with no debt. The top UK school charge less than the equivalent of $10,000 per year. There was an uproar in 2004-05 when there was talk of tuition rising by a the equivalent of a thousand US dollars.

Even if American associates do not contribute $160k worth of benefit to the firm, it is the American path to a legal career that requires salaries as a driving factor. At $20,000 a semester, I pay more in one semester for law school than the British pay for an entire undergraduate degree. Moreover, at 14 weeks of courses, I am paying my school nearly $3000 a week. Puh-lease. Is the school contributing $3000 worth of benefit to me... highly unlikely until you factor in that that will be my weekly pay. Lower my tuition and then salary will be less of a factor in determining where I go post-grad. Until then, US salaries for 1st years will keep climbing because law school tuitions do. And make no mistake, the ABA residency requirements are just another way to make sure we all pay as much tuition as possible.

A few things:

1. I've studied in both the UK and US and have come to the conclusion that the American higher education system is much better in several ways. Though UK universities do win the price battle.

2. 6:00- "math"? "patronizing"? What's next, c-o-l-o-r?

3. I'm surprised to see that Magic Circle firms are paying so "little" (not to say that I wouldn't take £63k). Even with the credit crunch and the layoffs in the City, I'd expect starting salaries to be several thousand pounds higher.

I'm an American who graduated from an Ivy undergrad and scored an LSAT score high enough to comfortably gain entry to a T-14. I would have gone too--until I realized how much I'd have to take out in loans for the privilege.

So I chose instead to go to the UK for law school. I'll graduate with a third of the debt (at most); I have an offer at a "TTT" Magic Circle firm, and will be dual qualified when all is said and done.

Will I be paid less initially. Yep. But to me that's a small price to pay to avoid being saddled with the ridiculous debt most US educated lawyers will have, some for 30-40 years. On balance, I'll bring more home every month than the typical US law grad (that is, of the minority of US law grads who actually choose or manage to snag a BigLaw job); and my dual qualifiation will arguably make me a more attractive prospect in the long term.

It's amazing to me how many "intelligent" posters on this board foam at the mouth about how much more they make than their counterparts at London firms (not counting the US based London firms, of course), while COMPLETELY ignoring how much more they've paid, are paying or will have to pay in loans.

I won't blindly presume (as some posters have) that my legal education is better or worse that what I'd get at a T-14. I'll find out soon enough. I just know that odds are I'll make more in the long run than I otherwise would have taking the conventional (read: quite foolish) route.

And you wonder why people think lawyers make terrible business people.

For the record, American lawyers working at Magic Circle firms in London (for the most part) get paid the same as American lawyers working in New York. UK-qualified lawyers at Magic Circle firms make less than their American counterparts.

I'm an Irish lawyer here in US. Educated in Dublin, and also did an LL.M. at Duke, but (thankfully) a few years after Smug Brit Git. The actual legal "education" is similar if not superior in Europe. I stress EDUCATION, as in what you are taught, how you are taught, and the relevance once you graduate. The trainee years are to teach you nuts and bolts of lawyering, as in how to draft, how to file, how to argue, etc, but not much on the legal basis, as you learn that in law school.

I think the error that some Americans make is failing to distinguish between what you learn and WHERE you learn. My college in Dublin is one of top 2 in country and it is an ugly dump, cold and damp, qnd the law library is a joke. When I was a Duke I was blown away by the facilities. I called my former classmates in Dublin and raved about the free food after speakers, the free paper to print documents out on (we were charged 25p per page when I was in law school pre Euro), etc. More than one friend asked me how much my free paper was costing again.

Look, law is a simple number game. You need books, space and intellectual ability from your lecturers. Everything else is just icing, and is not needed. So while law school in europe may look like something from dickens, I assure you that we got taught as much, and as well, as your T-14, Tier 1 etc education. We just don't have over $100k in debt for the experience.

And, unlike the similar boasts from TTT law grads, (which it is rightly noted that teh majority of these grads don't do biglaw and have no interest in the bitchy, whining of biglaw profs) the vast majority of grads at UCD, Trinity, UCC, Oxford, Cambridge, etc actually get high paying prestigious jobs, paying top MARKET, even if not top NYC (don't forget that they bill less hours. How much is 200 hours of your life worth?).

Just my two bits.

Not sure how much this adds... however, the last comment 9:08 seems to be the most intellectual statement of them all.

Several paople commented that they billed more than 200k in their first year. Big deal... from someone who used to deal with this a little... you need to add at least 50-75% of your salary as your "burden" on the firm (benefits etc.). Also, this doesn't take into considertion the indirect costs of your employment (your desk, telephone usage, building, cost to get clients, etc.) which is probably very substantial. Finally, do you honestly think that your billables are a true value of your worth? The reason why you are able to bill $200+ per hour (just guessing) is probably more due to the prestige your law firm rather than your intelligence.

Its great to be good at math and writing (punctuation/spelling etc.). However, its more important to: (1) think before you speak and (2) make sure what you are saying makes sense.

As an aside, you shouldn't be allowed to graduate from undergrad with an English/Communications major. Get a real degree like business or engineering. Also, consider working for a few years... then people will actually respect what you say as opposed to assuming (usually correctly) that you have no real experience in life and no capability to understand what the client needs.

America:

Hot women, prosperity, big army, standard of living, freedom (from England), hot women, health care.

England:

Ugly women, one city, laughable "army," no sunshine, ugly women, rotten teeth and gums.

Tough choice there.

9:41, now now, there is more than one city. However it is sad that that is only part of your post I can disagree with.

Hang on, reread your post, I think you put Health Care in wrong section. Its beter and FREE in UK and most of EUROPE.

And Hot Women only really applies in NYC or LA. DC women are horses and have you seen those texas polygimists! Ugh!

To the smug Brit:

Don't you have a UK version of ATL to troll? Better yet, why did you even bother with Duke (you said you didn't need it- yes I read your rambling, pointless "explanation")? Maybe it is because people are lining up to hire foreign (that's you) LLMs. They are so good at passing the bar, you know. In any event, the questions are rhetorical (please don't answer). You're probably too busy to answer anyway, being an income partner with your big fancy book of business and all. You're probably the only partner to ever post here, so you've got that going for you, too!

And don't come to my house and say "fuck all" when you mean "no/none/nothing". That's vulgar, you git!

Sincerely,
Woefully inferior US-trained attorney

10:33, the git works in the US, why would he troll a UK site? He's also not a partner. And yes, he did answer why he went to Duke. Looks like only park you got right was last sentance.

Why post rubbish responses like that? You just validate what idiots like him think. Either ignore, or respond logically.

Me, I could give a damn about a TTT City associate who thinks UK so much better than US for education. Fine. I went T-14, enjoyed my time and have debt but have job that services it. Money is not be all and end all, either as salary or as debt.

11:06 - Look, I read it fast and he isn't exactly a concise writer. It sounded from all the self-aggrandizement that partnership was a done deal. After all, he negoitated it so well and has that big book! The Duke answer was rambling and stupid- why be in NY anyway if he's such a nut for the Empire? If my post does anything for him, he's an even bigger loser (like you).

http://www.rollonfriday.co.uk/

11.32, what an amazing witty retort. You banged me dead to rights there.

For 11.32:

Once upon a time, a young man went to the circus. He was very excited, as he lived in western Manitoba and had never seen a circus before; the kind of town where you shave and the trolly stops. Anyway, as circus days drew nigh, the young man grew ever more excited. He arrived before dawn to get the best seat in the house, and was seated hours before the first trapeze act.
Finally, the trapeze artists gave an awe-inspiring performance, the elephants danced, and the lion tamer tamed. At last, the clowns came out in full regalia and green hair. They rode around by the gross in a purple volkswagon. The volksie pulled up to center of the ring, and an overweight clown with orange hair, acne, and a purple nose advanced to the podium:

"Will the person in section A, row Y, seat 42 please stand up?"

The young man looked at his ticket, and to his surprise, he was sitting in that very seat. The young man stood up.

Clown sez, "Wellllll, there's the horse's ass, now where's the rest of the horse?"

The man, dumbfounded, stood for a moment, then made his way quickly through crowd and out of the tent. Returning home, the man wept for days, and mourned the loss of dignity and honor. Eventually reason overcame his grief and the man grew determined. "I'm not going to get mad, I'm going to get even, and avenge the honor of myself, my family, and this town," exclaimed the man. He picked up the curriculum guide for the University of Nevada at Las Vegas (UNLV) correspondence courses and started to read.

Eventually his eyes came to rest on an advert for a class in "Quick Wit Retort." "Learn how to use those snappy comebacks to your advantage, now!" So the man sent in his $19.95 and soon received the course materials. In a few weeks, the man mastered the materials, and sent the final back to UNLV.

Much to his surprise, a registered letter arrived from the president of UNLV. It read:

Dear Sir: We are utterly flabbergasted at your performance in Quick Wit Retort 101. We would be most gratified if you could come to UNLV to complete your degree with our fine academic institution. Here's a check to cover your expenses.

To make a long story short :-), the man made straight A's in the QWR program. He was awarded numerous distinctions, and when he graduated, the graduation speaker Ed Meese awarded the man the Presidential Medal of Outstanding Quick Wit Retort, signed by Ronnie himself!

Some days afterward, Harvard University sent a lear-jet to pick the man up for an interview. The graduate admissions officer didn't mince words. "If you complete our masters/doctoral tenured track program in QWR, you will never have to worry about money again," said he. Needless to say, the man promptly moved to Cambridge.

In 5 years, the man had finished his doctorate. By this time, the man was known throughout the world as the leading expert in Quick Wit Retort. Word had even reached western Manitoba, which made his mother very proud. Everyone from Pentagon pundits to Beltway bandits consulted the man on technical questions of QWR.

One day, while sitting at his desk reading his hometown newspaper, the man noticed that the circus was coming to his hometown again. An evil smile crossed the man's face. "Siegfried," cried the man to his assistant, "We must be away to Manitoba. Ready the jet!" As the plane crossed the downlands of Michigan, the man savored the moment of victory that was to be his.

The man arrived at the circus tent very early, making sure to get the seat in section A, row Y, seat 42.

Finally, the trapeze artists gave an awe-inspiring performance, the elephants danced, and the lion tamer tamed. At last, the clowns came out in full regalia and green hair. They rode around by the gross in a purple volkswagon. The volksie pulled up to center of the ring, and an overweight clown with orange hair, acne, and a purple nose advanced to the podium:

"Will the person in section A, row Y, seat 42 please stand up?"

The man glanced at his ticket. This time he was ready.

Clown sez, "Wellllll, there's the horse's ass, now where's the rest of the horse?"

The man rose to his feet, full of confidence. He thrust out his chest and said in the loudest voice you can imagine:

YEAH, WELL FUCK YOU, CLOWN!!!!

British Douche,
I guess the quality of your education and work product is shown by the fact that you don't care if you make careless, avoidable mistakes. Thank god for secretaries, I hope you treated your's nice on this past holiday.

We kicked England's ass in the revolutionary war and we'll do it again if you don't know your place!

As someone who works for a Magic Circle firm, I am rather horrified by the vulgar tone of most of the messages left here.

Rather sad and pathetic and I would venture to say, all written by arrogant men.

The anonymous posting on the Internet does seem to bring out the worst in people. Very disheartening. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Thank goodness none of you are teachers. You're only lawyers, therefore have little impact on the future.

Smug Duke LLM Brit guy (or those similarly minded)-

What is with your continual comments on our American math education? Sure, Harvard and Stanford teach basic calculus, but everyone I know took AP Calc in high school and the entering members of Biglaw cohorts are nothing if not academic over-achievers. You occasionally run into a top biglaw associate who doesn't know what differential or a geometric sum is, but it's very rare.

I just don't see why you're harping on math. Are ALL English pupils taught calculus in high-school? Or is that just for the A-levels / "public" school kids?

9:38 I think the basic point is that in undergrad American students are being taught subjects that most european students are taught at highschool level. The electives and entry level and up english, maths and science programs all seem very simple and basic. It seems like you waste a whole load of your college career because you either 1) already know this from high school or 2) are learning basic stuff for firs time. Add in waste of 2l and 3l in law school and what do you have to show for $100k plus in debt?

Not like anyone will read this, but why all the insults? I have a JD from a top 10 law school and now teach law at a university in the UK. Both systems of legal education have their strengths and weaknesses, and neither is vastly superior to the other.

US universities are much more expensive and therefore have much better facilities, and that is true across the board. However, that does not necessarily affect the quality of the professors or the actual education received. I would put a person with a law degree from Oxford or Cambridge and a training contract from a Magic Circle firm up against a JD from HYS any day. The key words here being "law degree". Plenty of UK lawyers do an undergraduate degree in something other than law and then do a one year conversion course. In my opinion, that is not enough formal legal training and a lot of these people suffer in practice (some, of course, do not and become fine lawyers).

The other thing to remember is that a lot of the top law students from top UK universities become barristers, not solicitors. As a barrister, you are self-employed, and can be making £500,000 per year as the equivalent of a fourth year, if you are good. As a US lawyer in practice, even international practice, you are unlikely to encounter any barristers, but they are excellent lawyers.

Why all the insults, 6:50? Because America is better than everyplace else. Thus, Americans are better people. That logic is so solid it should be an LSAT question.

7:10, you remind me of myself, only dumber, and fatter, and American.